Rate My Party

[Chauncymancer]

In two weeks I will be running my first session of an upcoming lvl 4-14 campaign composed primarily of modules stitched together. I'm not the most mechanically savvy dm though, so I'd like a little help.
I'm posting the level 4 character sheets for most of my party (there's also one guy in a homebrew class, but I haven't given his build final approval) and I'd like some general advice: Glaring weaknesses, one player being straight better than all the others, etc.

The Elf Bard

Illex
Sierra's Character
Bard 4
Elf
Medium Female Age 150 5'4" Green eyes Mauve hair
Str 15 +2 HP 34 Spd 30ft
Dex 14 +2 AC 17(+5 armor +2 dex)
Con 14 +2 Touch AC 12 FF AC 15
Int 14 +2 Init +2
Wis 14 +2 Fort +4 (1+3) Ref +5 (4+1) Will 6 (4+2)
Cha 18 +4 BAB +3 Grappel +5

Feats Skill focus Diplomacy, Nimble Fingers

Skills......................................Class features
Bluff 11................................Bardic Music
Concentration 9......................Bardic Knowledge
Decipher Script 9...................Counter Song
Diplomacy 14.......................Fascinate
Escape Artist 7....................Inspire Courage (+1)
Perform 11........................Inspire Competence
Sense Motive 9
Use Magic Device 11

Inventory

Ring of Feather Fall
Wand of Summon Monster I
Grey Bag of Tricks

Elven Thinblade 1d8+2 18-20/x2 Pierce
Chain Shirt +5 ACP -2
[350 gp unspent]
Spells
Lullaby
Daze
Mending
Message
Resistance
Flare
Read Magic

Unseen Servant
Expeditious Retreat
Cause Fear
Cure light wounds

Cure Moderate Wounds
Mirror Image
Alter Self

The Human Ranger

Zedrom
Alex's Character
Ranger 4
Human
Medium Mmale Age 21 5'11" Blue eyes Black hair
Str 15 +2 HP 36 Spd 30ft
Dex 15 +2 AC 18(+6 armor +2 dex)
Con 15 +2 Touch AC 12 FF AC 16
Int 13 +1 Init +2
Wis 13 +1 Fort +6 (4+2) Ref +6 (4+2) Will 2 (1+1)
Cha 14 +4 BAB +4 Grappel +6

Feats Point Blank Shot Far Shot Precise Shot

Skills......................................Class features
Climb 8...................................Favored enemy orcs
Handle Animal 9......................Track
Heal 8....................................Wild Empathy
Know (Dungeoneering) 9.........Rapid Shot
Know (Geography) 9..............Endurance
Know (Nature) 9....................Animal Companion
Move Silently 8
Survival 8

Inventory

Studded Leather +3 ACP -1
Composite Longbow d8 x3 Pierce
[1200 gp unspent]
Spells

Speak with Animals
The Thri-Keen Dragoon

Grasshopper
Cody's Character
Ninja 4
Thri-kreen
Medium Male Age 25 6'8" 140 lb Compound eyes Chitinous skin
Str 14 +2 HP 33 Spd 40ft
Dex 18 +4 AC 18(+4Dex, +1nat, +3misc)
Con 16 +3 Touch AC FF AC
Int 14 +2 Init +4
Wis 16 +3 Fort +4 (1+3) Ref +8 (4+4) Will 4 (1+3)
Cha 11 +0 BAB +3 Grappel +5

Feats Skill Focus Jump, Brachiation

Skills Class Features
Climb +9 +wis AC
Disable Device +9 Ki pool
Hide +11 Sudden Strike 2d6
Jump+55 Ghost Step
Move Silent +11 Poison
Search +9 Trap finding
Tumble +11 Great Leap

Inventory
Earplugs
Small Magnet
Marbles
Metal Tongs
Roll of Twine (x10)
Bedroll
Bell
Blanket
Pulley
Chalk (x10)
1sq yrd canvas
Crowbar
Flint/Steel
Grappling Hook
Hammer
Small Mirror
Piton (X10)
Silk Rope (100ft)
Shovel
Spellbook (blank)
Belt Pouch
MWK theives tools

Kamina's Spear (1d8 Jump +10 1/day)
Hat of Disguise
Ring of Jumping (+5)
Hawk
Animal Whistle

Free Item
Heward's Handy Haversack.

The Human Cleric

Vir al-Gen
Scott's Character
Cleric 4
Human
Medium Male Age 26 6'3" Green eyes Blonde hair
Str 16 +3 HP 26 Spd 20ft
Dex 13 +1 AC 18(+5 armor +2shield +1 dex)
Con 17 +3 Touch AC 11 FF AC 17
Int 14 +2 Init +1
Wis 19 +4 Fort +7 (4+3) Ref +4 (1+1+2) Will 8 (4+4)
Cha 15 +2 BAB +3 Grappel +6

Feats Power Attack Improved Bullrush Cometary Collision

Skills......................................Class features
Concentration 10......................Turn Undead
Heal 11..................................Domain Spontaneity
Intimidate 9....................... War Domain: War Ax
Know (Religion) 9....................Destruction Domain
Spellcraft 9


Inventory

Wand of Cure Light Wounds

+1 Spellstoring War Ax
Breastplate +5 ACP -4
Heavy Steel Shield +2

Spells

Cause Fear x3
Doom x2

Cure modx2
Hold Person
Aid

[sonofzeal]

They all seem pretty low-op. I would expect most of them not to be very effective, despite the high ability scores. None of them are all that great at combat from the looks of it so I'd play it easy with them there, but they've all got plenty of utility.

The only standout is the Cleric. If he uses spells effectively, he's quickly going to outshine the others.

Finally... doesn't "Thri-Keen" have a level adjustment to it? It's not a huge issue because the class he's using is absolutely terrible, but still worth noting.

[Randomguy]

I agree. They're all on about the same, low power level. Don't use any build on these forums as an npc, unless it's a boss that's supposed to solo the entire party. And even then, be careful

If the cleric wanted to he could probably be the most powerful party member, especially if he uses his spells well. He doesn't seem to be going down that route though.

Be careful with your encounters. You could TPK them with something too strong.

[Machinekng]

The only issue that I see is that the bard's chain shirt is granting her +5 to AC. If the Chain shirt is +1, which would make it grant +5 AC, it should have an ACP of -1.

EDIT: Also, the cleric should NEVER prepare cure spells, as he can cast them spontaneously.
EDIT2: My bad, didn't see his feat.

[Deimess]

How does the bard have 34 HP? bards are a d6 HD and he has a 14 CON, meaning the max HP he could have at level 4 is 32 (4x6+8=32)?

[Zale]

Mauve Hair?

I'm sorry. xD That's the first thing that came to mind.

[sonofzeal]

More thorough look...

- The Bard's "Wand of SM1" is nigh-useless, as it only casts at CL 1 and thus the summons only last for a single round. Given that the casting time is 1 round too, that seems like a poor investment even by low-op standards.

- The Cleric is preparing Cure Moderate Wounds, when he can cast it spontaneously. This is even more of a waste than the Wand, since the wand could be at least theoretically useful in certain specialized situations.

- Why does the Ninja have a "free item"?

- Everyone else seems to have way more net worth than the Ranger.

[Darth_Versity]

I thought Thru Keen had racial hit dice. It's the main reason I've never been interested in playing one.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Unless I'm GROSSLY misremembering something, a Bard 4 should not have 3 2nd level spells known.

Thri-kreen has both HD and LA, so cannot have more than one level.

Elven Thinblade is not an automatic proficiency for elves.

Armor bonuses are out of whack; bard should be +4, not +5; ranger should be +3, not +6; cleric should probably be wearing better armor, can't really hurt not to...

Something seems to be up with your Thri-kreen...he appears to have spent vastly more time on his equipment than all of the other characters, and yet somehow managed to miss the fact that Thri-kreen cannot start out at the same level as normal characters... I'd keep an eye on him.

I'd also keep an eye on the cleric; while everything would seem fine so far, he could, at some point, look up good cleric spells on the internet during a game break and then go on to completely destroy everything the next day. You have been warned.

[u-b]

- The Bard's "Wand of SM1" is...
...some good from utility standpoint. Like all those celestial trapmonkey and such.

- The Cleric is preparing Cure Moderate Wounds, when he...
...has Domain Spontaneity ACF.

To me, item selections look really strange... like bard having BOTH the wand and the bag and like having the ring while not having an obvious mode of flight. Or ranger not having his longbow as masterwork str 14 composite. I would guess (just guess) that players making these characters are somewhat under-experienced, so should not be expected to take a best approach to a situation. Do not expect these characters to be played to their full mechanical potential (however much that is) especially under stress, unless proven otherwise.

[Chauncymancer]

Alright, I'm going to go down the list of suggestions and see if I'm following you/ know where I made my mistake (thanks guys:smallbiggrin:)

1. +1 armor decreases the severity of its penalty check by one?
2. I need to make sure I can count/ maybe make the Bard reroll HP? She rolled in front of me, but that was awhile ago, so it's probably an honest mistake.
3. I need to sit down with my ranger and see where he spent his gold (and make sure he spends all his gold: Apparently he wanted over a thousand gold "mad money" despite the setting not supporting buying magic items...)
4. Mauve hair just is... Elves are only barely (2 NPCs) sketched out in the setting, so I told her to make up whatever, and I'd standardize it across the race.
5. CL1 summon wands don't work... See this is why I sent this in.
6. The "free item" is a roleplaying reward: The ninja knew exactly what he wanted, but everyone else is still deciding.
7. Both the thri-keen and the fifth member whose playing a drow are using LA/HD 0 mods they got from... somewhere... the drow's still had the wizard's logo on it. If I didn't write a racial ability on their sheets, it's because the mod took that ability away.
8. Check the Bard's spell progression (She's never made a caster before, and I'm normally a cleric)
9. I think the numbers are off bc they players recorded what they bought, but not how they got their (The ranger's wealth might be all tied up in magical armor, see number 3)
10. The ninja is a loon: He saw a forum-game type thing where all the final fantasy tactics jobs got builds, and he just had to be a dragoon (So the real question ten is: How do I rule on a character who jumps 45 feet in the air on a charge?)
11. The cleric is, by all accounts, a serious min-maxer with more system knowledge than me: I made him wait until everyone else had built a character, showed him their characters, and told him that if he overshadowed the rest of the party he'd have to help them min-max until things evened out. So he might be throwing things on purpose.

[sonofzeal]

...some good from utility standpoint. Like all those celestial trapmonkey and such.
....which are much more useful when they last more than a round, unless you know exactly where the trap is, in which case you've got other options. How many campaigns are going to run into 50 traps where the PCs spot the trap, and the PCs can't disable the trap, and the PCs can't bypass the trap, and the trap doesn't reset?

It's situationally useful... but there's far better options for that 750 gp at this level.


...has Domain Spontaneity ACF.
Point.

[Serpentine]

They all seem pretty low-op. I would expect most of them not to be very effective, despite the high ability scores. None of them are all that great at combat from the looks of it so I'd play it easy with them there, but they've all got plenty of utility.

The only standout is the Cleric. If he uses spells effectively, he's quickly going to outshine the others.
I agree. They're all on about the same, low power level...
If the cleric wanted to he could probably be the most powerful party member, especially if he uses his spells well. He doesn't seem to be going down that route though.I would like to point out to the OP that, so long as they're all about the same level, and so long as the Cleric makes sure he stays around that level, being low-op isn't a bad thing. You just have to work out what sort of level of encounters they can handle, and customise appropriately.

[u-b]

The monkey can run like 30*4 ft straight along the corridor, but otherwise your point is valid, so I am saying "some" good, not "all that" good. Besides, for some OP, it should really be partially charged, as by MIC.

[Chauncymancer]

...some good from utility standpoint. Like all those celestial trapmonkey and such.
Okay, so it's good to know there's some use of that wand and it's not just a trap.


To me, item selections look really strange... like bard having BOTH the wand and the bag and like having the ring while not having an obvious mode of flight. Or ranger not having his longbow as masterwork str 14 composite. I would guess (just guess) that players making these characters are somewhat under-experienced, so should not be expected to take a best approach to a situation. Do not expect these characters to be played to their full mechanical potential (however much that is) especially under stress, unless proven otherwise.

The Bard picked the wand on her own, and when the ninja told her about the bag she "just had to have it". I think she might have squeed when she saw the animal list. What happens when a BoT summon dies? Does it go back to the box or is it lost forever?
The ring might be because I explained the Elven cities as built inside trees and on mountain sides, but forgot to make it clear that falling off the cities is not a constant danger. The Bard's last DM sounds kinda random, so maybe she's just afraid that I'm threatening her with getting thrown down the side of a mountain (I always explain fighters with the "can fall down a mountain and fight at the bottom and win" example) So I should ask about that.
All the ranger's equipment is borked. He's been playing for about a year, but apparently it's mostly E6 flavored stuff where lvl 4 is where campaigns end.


A new question to add in is: The ninja and cleric are both very experienced with the game, moreso than me. We're very beer and pretzels with this campaign but I'm worried: If they get serious and do their thing, I'm afraid they'll overshadow the rest of the party (who are all very new to 3.5) and spoil the "hang out, kill stuff, monty python quote" vibe I'm going for. On the other hand if they don't bring their A-game, I'm afraid of TPK. This is a modules only game, with minimal work by me to bring the different adventures together. I want to keep that model as I've already given my players those modules as hooks and the cleric has already played some of them. I know to pull my punches, but some of these NPC's are coming straight out of the box sight unseen (one mod is homebrew by one of the players, two are from forgotten realms, and one is Exemplars of Evil's orcs.)

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't have to worry about a ninja overpowering the party. Ninja is a weak class... you'd have to worry about the Cleric overpowering the party, though...

[sonofzeal]

1. +1 armor decreases the severity of its penalty check by one?
Any magic armor is masterwork. Masterwork decreases ACP by 1.


2. I need to make sure I can count/ maybe make the Bard reroll HP? She rolled in front of me, but that was awhile ago, so it's probably an honest mistake.
Most likely an adding mistake. Or she gave +6 for max at first level and then rolled 4d6 not remembering she'd already done that level, or something like that.


3. I need to sit down with my ranger and see where he spent his gold (and make sure he spends all his gold: Apparently he wanted over a thousand gold "mad money" despite the setting not supporting buying magic items...)
Mad money isn't a bad idea, but yeah there's definitely stuff missing. The Cleric has a weapon worth 8000 gp, for example. That may be a mistake on the Cleric's part though. How much are they supposed to have?


5. CL1 summon wands don't work... See this is why I sent this in.
Well, see my back and forth with u-b. There's situations where one could use it, but they're pretty obtuse. I'd recommend something else unless the player is a tactical genius who knows exactly what they're getting.


6. The "free item" is a roleplaying reward: The ninja knew exactly what he wanted, but everyone else is still deciding.


7. Both the thri-keen and the fifth member whose playing a drow are using LA/HD 0 mods they got from... somewhere... the drow's still had the wizard's logo on it. If I didn't write a racial ability on their sheets, it's because the mod took that ability away.
Usually that's called "Savage Progressions", and treated almost like a base class. IIRC they have to actually take levels in their respective classes ("Thri-Keen" and "Drow")... at very least for 1st level. The benefits do not get tacked on to whatever other classes you take.


8. Check the Bard's spell progression (She's never made a caster before, and I'm normally a cleric)
Just to clarify - high Charisma does not increase your spells known. That might be the issue.


10. The ninja is a loon: He saw a forum-game type thing where all the final fantasy tactics jobs got builds, and he just had to be a dragoon (So the real question ten is: How do I rule on a character who jumps 45 feet in the air on a charge?)
Note that he can't jump farther than his movement. His land move speed determines his maximum movement for the turn; if he takes a double move at speed 30, and hustles 45 feet then jumps 45, he stops at 60 and the extra 30 feet of movement happens the next turn. Hopefully that example made sense...


11. The cleric is, by all accounts, a serious min-maxer with more system knowledge than me: I made him wait until everyone else had built a character, showed him their characters, and told him that if he overshadowed the rest of the party he'd have to help them min-max until things evened out. So he might be throwing things on purpose.
I'd look into that 8000 gp axe. That seems out of line with the gold the others are kicking around. Other than that though... eh, I don't see any major warning signs. He's stated up to be a battle cleric though, and if the game gets to 7th lvl or above he might start kicking far too much arse even without trying.

Now... I'm a "min-maxer" too, and the group I play with is very much like yours. The way I handle that is adding extra challenges for myself. For example, check my Sig for the "Minimum Intervention Balance Fix". I did that voluntarily on my last Cleric, but none of the other party members had any such limitation. This meant that I could optimize without overshadowing them. And I like that, because I like to optimize, even though I don't like overshadowing everyone.

Talk with him. Rather than threatening him, give him challenges. Another possible challenge is "cannot take even a single spell from the PHB". That leaves him tones of options to play with... but trust me that it hurts.

[nyarlathotep]

Umm unless you've homebrewed the race to be weaker the thri-keen is 1 higher ECL than everyone else. Additionally he doesn't have the normal 2 racial hitdice which would put him at 3 levels higher than everyone. Ergo unless their is some severe homebrewing going on he should be thri-keen 3/ninja 1. Additionally convince him to to play a ninja for his character concept dragoons are much better represented in D&D by virtually any other class.

[Gavinfoxx]

Someone wants to play a dragoon?

Sadly, that is generally a high-optimization-required problem.

See:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200

For a high-optimization handbook on the topic.

[Chauncymancer]

Umm unless you've homebrewed the race to be weaker the thri-keen is 1 higher ECL than everyone else. Additionally he doesn't have the normal 2 racial hitdice which would put him at 3 levels higher than everyone. Ergo unless their is some severe homebrewing going on he should be thri-keen 3/ninja 1. Additionally convince him to to play a ninja for his character concept dragoons are much better represented in D&D by virtually any other class.
Hoo boy is there homebrew... the only things I can remember for sure that he didn't give up are the racial jump bonus and +1 nat armor. His reasoning for these things was...
The dragoon class in his favorite edition of tactics was a light-armor/no-armor class that attacked by jumping. His entire build is built around breaking his jump skill check (which you'll not it does quite effectively)
For everything else:
1. There are no psionics in this setting and I have to stick with that bc this campaign is getting added in as fluff for the setting's background (by the time the player's hit level 10, a predetermined historical event on the other side of the world will trigger something like FR's time of troubles only more extreme.) The designer's my roomate and we're bartering.
2. The setting stipulates that certain LA societies (Drow, Thrikeen, Vampires, etc.) that are fluffed as having caste systems are represented mechanically by a racial template for the plebians (HD 0-4, LA 0-2) and an optional savage progression up through the castes for the various "noble lines". The prereq for the Thrikeen advancement is the feat "four arms" which must be taken at level one. Most of the Thrikeen's immunities are features of the progression.

[Crasical]

Wand of Dead Celestial Monkey isn't wholly a bad idea, One round is long enough for 'Touch the ominous altar' 'Pull this lever' 'Run down this hallway' 'go into this room and scream if there's danger', all the little things in adventuring that the party doesn't really want to do.

Then again, she -does- also have the bag of tricks, which can duplicate some of that function...

[sonofzeal]

Wand of Dead Celestial Monkey isn't wholly a bad idea, One round is long enough for 'Touch the ominous altar' 'Pull this lever' 'Run down this hallway' 'go into this room and scream if there's danger', all the little things in adventuring that the party doesn't really want to do.

Then again, she -does- also have the bag of tricks, which can duplicate some of that function...
The question is whether or not the player realizes how limited it is. If the game starts and then the first time they use it the DM's all "oh by the way", that could be majorly frustrating. And even though it's got uses, most other Bard spells would be better on that wand, especially since they've already got BoT.

I mean... compare Wand of SM1 with Wand of Unseen Servant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unseenServant.htm).

Yeah, I thought so. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Why don't you, uh, look at the hood guide, and try and figure out an appropriate to the optimization level way of helping him with the concept? That will maybe be.... 1/10th of the combos available in the guide, perhaps...

[#Raptor]

Thread is almost a whole page long but none mentioned the "Alter Self" on the bard yet? :smallconfused:
Its obviously not as broken as the other spells in the polymorph line, but its quite strong. Even with humanoids.
Core: Turn into a Troglodyte. 6 natural armor, multiattack.
6 NA on top of your regular armor is quite decent.
All books: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0

[Gwendol]

Yeah, but considering the other spell choices the bard is a far cry from what it can be.

In addition to:
No optimized IC in any way shape or form
No bardic knack, or other ACF
No "useful" feats (melodic casting, lingering song, extra song, just to name a few)

[Greenish]

What happens when a BoT summon dies?It disappears.

Does it go back to the box or is it lost forever?No.

A new question to add in is: The ninja and cleric are both very experienced with the game, moreso than me. We're very beer and pretzels with this campaign but I'm worried: If they get serious and do their thing, I'm afraid they'll overshadow the rest of the party (who are all very new to 3.5) and spoil the "hang out, kill stuff, monty python quote" vibe I'm going for.It appears you've already told them what sort the game will be. Remind them if they start to overshadow others.

[Chauncymancer]

While I'm working out all these bugs, I thought I'd open the door to op suggestions.
What equipment should I recommend for the ranger?
What feats should I recommend for the bard?
How much damage does a dragoon-type attack inflict?

[sonofzeal]

While I'm working out all these bugs, I thought I'd open the door to op suggestions.
What equipment should I recommend for the ranger?
Masterwork Composite Longbow {Str+3} costs 600gp and will give them +1 on attack rolls and +3 damage.

Your party is pretty good on healing, but a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is still standard for Rangers. It's on their list so they can use it, and it can be a major lifesaver. Wands of Entangle are also pretty awesome.

They a backup melee weapon.

They need arrows made of special materials. Silver arrows are 2gp, Cold Iron are 4 copper, and adamantine are 60gp.

The other standards for everyone at this level are +1 armor and +1 cloak of resistance.


What feats should I recommend for the bard?
Song of the Heart - boosts the attack and damage of Inspire Courage by 1 each.

Melodic Casting - allows them to cast spells without interrupting a song.

How much damage does a dragoon-type attack inflict?
Er, I didn't see anything on the Ninja's character sheet that boosts damage. So, "the same as a regular attack". This could be improved if he used Martial Study or a Swordsage/Warblade dip to get some Tiger Claw Maneuvers (ToB). But barring that, it's purely a cinematic affect and doesn't increase his offensive abilities at all.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember, if you want to actually get bonuses to damage from dragoon style attacks, you are going to need to read -- and then choose several of the options from -- this guidebook to dragoons in D&D...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200

I've already linked it once, take a close look at it!

[Gwendol]

Wand of arrowmind (SpC) for the ranger, ideally inside a wand chamber on the bow.

Healing belt?

Also for the ranger: acrobat boots (MiC). Cheap way of getting a slight increase in tumbling, and also the possibility of extra movement. That's always handy. Vanishers cloak for invisibility. Bag of tricks for animals.
Efficient quiver (magical, very handy)
Handy haversack

The ranger might want to take the feat natural bond at level 6 to boost the power of his animal companion.