Looking for a "Bardadin" Build

[TheRinni]

I have seen references to Bard/Paladin multiclassed combinations, but I've yet to find any specific builds. Does anyone have any favorite builds, or tricks with this combination?

I ask because I've recently started a level one campaign in which I'm playing a Lawful Good Bard (allowed by the DM, who is very loose with alignment restrictions), and I'm interested in taking a few levels in Paladin - or maybe Crusader?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Bardsader is a solid choice. Bard4/Crusader2/War Chanter10/Crusader4 is the generally suggested track. White Raven Song lets Bard and Crusader levels stack for Inspire Courage.

Basically, IC/DFI optimization, with a side of tanking and area denial.

Bard4/Pal2/War Chanter/xxx isn't too bad either, since you get Cha (already an important stat for Bards) to saves.

There's a feat... it lets Bard and Paladin stack for purposes of counting how many uses of Bardic Music he gets. Initiate of Mill, I think it is.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you want to play a bardadin, you can take the Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer. Lets you stack your bard and paladin levels to determine how much damage you deal with Smite Evil and how many bardic music uses you have per day. Also, you should take Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn so you can get the Smite-to hit with every attack roll for a few rounds (stacks with Smite itself, so evil beware!)

If you want to play a crubarder, you can take the Song of the White Raven feat from Tome of Battle. Lets you stack your bard levels with your crusader levels to determine your Inspire Courage bonus, and something about swift actions (can't remember at the moment). It's generally suggested that you take 4 levels of bard first, to get some small amount of spellcasting/music per day/skill points, but don't take 5th level, that's when you lose your second point of BAB. Then you switch over to crusader, and your IL at 1st level is 3, (since you add 1/2 your other class levels to it) meaning you can start the crusader class with 2nd level maneuvers, if you like. Take Crusader 16 and you end up with +19 BAB, 4 daily uses of Inspire Courage +4, an IL of 18, and lots of Charisma synergy.

Bard 4 is slightly more useful for a warblade, as warblades can't heal on their own, so the access to cure light wounds is appreciated more, but crusaders benefit more from the increased Charisma. Have fun!

[Need_A_Life]

It's a surprisingly good combo, if you have the stats for it (standard Barbarian stats + charisma).

Perform (dance) or similar, will allow you to keep your hands free for a nice greatsword or greataxe... wait, nevermind. Falchion.
In Pathfinder, I'd recommend Half-Orc. +2 to the stat of your choosing and 1/day, when you drop to between -1 and -9, you get a round to use the best healing spell on your spell list.
In 3.5, I'd probably go with Human, just for the feat. Granted, if Eberron is available, Warforged offers enough bonuses for the Barbarian side of things that a hit to your Charisma is a fair deal (immune to fatigue means no post-rage de-buff).

There's plenty of prestige classes that focus on the martial side of being a bard (at least in 3.5), so look at those for entry requirements.
A (few?) level of Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) will help buff your party via your Charisma.

This class may also give you some love: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a
Cha to AC for a 2-level dip. Other abilities if you're willing to miss out on bard/barbarian abilities.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you want to play a bardadin, you can take the Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer. Lets you stack your bard and paladin levels to determine how much damage you deal with Smite Evil and how many bardic music uses you have per day. Also, you should take Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn so you can get the Smite-to hit with every attack roll for a few rounds (stacks with Smite itself, so evil beware!)

If you want to play a crubarder, you can take the Song of the White Raven feat from Tome of Battle. Lets you stack your bard levels with your crusader levels to determine your Inspire Courage bonus, and something about swift actions (can't remember at the moment). It's generally suggested that you take 4 levels of bard first, to get some small amount of spellcasting/music per day/skill points, but don't take 5th level, that's when you lose your second point of BAB. Then you switch over to crusader, and your IL at 1st level is 3, (since you add 1/2 your other class levels to it) meaning you can start the crusader class with 2nd level maneuvers, if you like. Take Crusader 16 and you end up with +19 BAB, 4 daily uses of Inspire Courage +4, an IL of 18, and lots of Charisma synergy.

Bard 4 is slightly more useful for a warblade, as warblades can't heal on their own, so the access to cure light wounds is appreciated more, but crusaders benefit more from the increased Charisma. Have fun!

The Bard4 is for the spell Inspirational Boost, which increases your Inspire Courage by +1.

White Raven Song lets you Inspire Courage as a swift action, if you are in a White Raven stance. However, since Inspirational Boost is a swift-action spell, it probably is not to your advantage to do this.

War Chanter is a very useful PrC for either of these builds. The capstone ability is Song of Legion, which gives everyone affected by the bardic music (i.e. everyone you care about) the same BAB as the person with the highest BAB, or your character level, whichever is higher. So now everyone, including the casters, has an effective full BAB. Including Iteratives. Considering they can twist this with Dragonfire Inspiration (thanks to the 5th level ability of the same class), this has enormous damage potential.

[TheRinni]

The DM for this campaign is very much against ToB. So, in keeping with the peace, I think I'm going to go with the Bard/Paladin/Warchanter suggestion.

I'm playing a human; I took Snowflake Wardance and Extra Music for my two feats.

The Warchanter PrC seems great, and I'd like to enter into as soon as possible. Unfortunately, my terrible planning in my first two feats seems to have delayed my entry. I can probably take a flaw, and enter it by level 6. So the 4 Bard/2 Paladin/Warblade seems like a good entry, though I'd have liked to enter into it sooner.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The DM for this campaign is very much against ToB. So, in keeping with the peace, I think I'm going to go with the Bard/Paladin/Warchanter suggestion.

I'm playing a human; I took Snowflake Wardance and Extra Music for my two feats.

The Warchanter PrC seems great, and I'd like to enter into as soon as possible. Unfortunately, my terrible planning in my first two feats seems to have delayed my entry. I can probably take a flaw, and enter it by level 6. So the 4 Bard/2 Paladin/Warblade seems like a good entry, though I'd have liked to enter into it sooner.

With the BAB prerequisite, I doubt you could've entered it any sooner anyways.

Other feats you may be interested in:

Song of the Heart. Requires Inspire Competence (so, your 3rd level feat, generally), and gives a +1 to your Inspire Courage numbers. If you look up Masterworked Instruments in Complete Adventurer, you'll note that some of them also give a +1 to Inspire Courage. Then, the Badge of Valor in the Magic Item Compendium can be activated for another +1 to Inspire Courage. A Vest of Legends increases your effective Bard level by 5 for purposes of Inspire Courage, which generally ends up being an additional +1.

This significantly increases your Inspire Courage numbers...

Dragonfire Inspiration is also another feat you may wish to consider. Then Draconic Heretage: War Dragon to change the damage flavor to Sonic. You'll need to be Dragonblooded, though, which means either be a Silverbrow Human, or blow a feat on Dragontouched. If you go with Dragontouched, another feat you may like is Draconic Aura, which keys off of Character Level due to Dragontouched, and can give initiative bonuses to the whole party.

[The Underlord]

Draconic heritage though,(the one in RoD) requirese you to be a sorcerer.

[NeoSeraphi]

Draconic heritage though,(the one in RoD) requirese you to be a sorcerer.

Yes but the Dragontouched feat lets you take Draconic Heritage feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level. (though, without arcane spell slots to power them, it doesn't really do anything other than let bards take Draconic Heritage)

[NineThePuma]

Someone needs to make a "Multi-classing Handbook" or something. Something that takes 2 base classes, combines them, and tells you why the combination is good and how to make it better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Someone needs to make a "Multi-classing Handbook" or something. Something that takes 2 base classes, combines them, and tells you why the combination is good and how to make it better.

That would be an extensive and exhaustive handbook, considering the number of combinations possible out there...


Yes but the Dragontouched feat lets you take Draconic Heritage feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level. (though, without arcane spell slots to power them, it doesn't really do anything other than let bards take Draconic Heritage)

It also lets them qualify for DFI if they aren't dragonblooded already, and it lets draconic auras key off of character level rather being a static +1.

[NineThePuma]

... True. Maybe just the ones that are good for flavor or mechanically?

[The Underlord]

Yes but the Dragontouched feat lets you take Draconic Heritage feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level. (though, without arcane spell slots to power them, it doesn't really do anything other than let bards take Draconic Heritage)

Spot check (1d20)[1]

[ShneekeyTheLost]

... True. Maybe just the ones that are good for flavor or mechanically?

That's STILL an exhaustive list, as it would generally incorporate every 'gish' build which is viable, of which there are many, plus all the other combinations out there. But... I'll see what I can do.

[NineThePuma]

Maybe it should mostly highlight low level builds without PrCs involved then...

Mind you, it was just something I thought at. Not something that you should feel obligated to devote time to. :smalleek::smallfrown: Didn't mean to imply that you should has to.

[Baxter190]

Well, just start with core class from the PH and the prc from the DMG?

[Morph Bark]

Someone needs to make a "Multi-classing Handbook" or something. Something that takes 2 base classes, combines them, and tells you why the combination is good and how to make it better.

I am actually slowly compiling a kind of thing like that for personal uses, so that I don't take a ton of time to dig through tons of books to make a new character. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ask, and thou shalt receive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225901).

I've been kicking this idea around for a while anyways. It's not fully fleshed, but the basics are there, with enough room to fill in the blanks as it grows.

[NineThePuma]

You rock.

True story, bro.

[Treblain]

Keep in mind: the standard "bardsader" build (bard 4/crusader 16) is just a crusader with optimized Inspire Courage. Nothing wrong with that, but be aware you aren't getting that much synergy from the classes, and the build doesn't give a **** about the bard side beyond squeezing every point of IC/Dragonfire Inspiration out of it. I'm tired of seeing it touted as the perfect combo of bard and martial initiator, because it isn't. :smallfurious: It just grafts the bard's powerful mass damage-buffing feature onto a powerful melee class. If you want to play a bard, that's not the route to go.

As far as bard taking levels of paladin or crusader goes, the key thing is to take advantage of charisma synergy and other abilities without losing much. FYI, you don't need to worry much about investing wisdom at all. Paladin 2 gets CHA to saves. Paladin 4 gets Turn Undead, which can be used to power domain or divine feats, some of which are very good. Past 4, there isn't anything useful unless you really want the horsey. Also worth noting: once you dip paladin, you can use scrolls and wands of paladin spells without a Use Magic Device check.

Crusader is great because the "half initiator level" rule lets you qualify for more powerful maneuvers from small dips provided you wait 'til ninth level or so. I don't really have any more to say about it. It's a good class.

I'd just do two or four levels of paladin. Two if you just want Divine Grace, four if you want more BAB and you find some way to use Turn Undead, like Divine Might for CHA to damage. Don't bother with Devoted Performer if your DM is lax about alignment; all you'll get is more bardic music uses. Snowflake Wardance and other melee bard options will be good, too.

[NeoSeraphi]

As far as bard taking levels of paladin or crusader goes, the key thing is to take advantage of charisma synergy and other abilities without losing much. FYI, you don't need to worry about investing wisdom at all. Paladin 2 gets CHA to saves. Paladin 4 gets Turn Undead, which can be used to power domain or divine feats, some of which are very good. Past 4, there isn't anything useful unless you really want the horsey. Also worth noting: once you dip paladin, you can use scrolls and wands of paladin spells without a Use Magic Device check.


You can't use scrolls and wands of paladin spells without the prerequisite 11-14 Wisdom, unless you make a UMD check of 26-29.

[kulosle]

The harmonizing knight variant needs to be brought up. It has a inspired courage like affect. Talk to you DM about how it works if you also have inspired courage from bard. It's in champion of valor if i remember correctly.

[Dr.Epic]

You could try the paladin of freedom variant for a CG alignment. After all, bards can't be lawful.

[NeoSeraphi]

You could try the paladin of freedom variant for a CG alignment. After all, bards can't be lawful.

The OP says her DM has a lax alignment restriction, and the Devoted Performer feat lets a bard be lawful if he has paladin levels.

[gorfnab]

Bard 1/ Paladin 19
1. Able Learner, Dragonfire Inspiration
3. Devoted Performer
6. Initiate of Milil
9. Snowflake Wardance
12. Song of the Heart
15. Words of Creation
18. Battle Blessing

[NeoSeraphi]

Bard 1/ Paladin 19
1. Able Learner, Dragonfire Inspiration
3. Devoted Performer
6. Initiate of Milil
9. Snowflake Wardance
12. Song of the Heart
15. Words of Creation
18. Battle Blessing

Able Learner? Why would you pick human over spellscale here? You take spellscale, get the dragonblood subtype and +2 Charisma (If you're going to spend your free feat on Able Learner of all things, I don't see why the +2 Charisma isn't the better deal)

[Treblain]

You can't use scrolls and wands of paladin spells without the prerequisite 11-14 Wisdom, unless you make a UMD check of 26-29.

I am indeed wrong concerning scrolls, but not wands AFAIK. All you need for spell trigger items is for the spell to be on your class list. I might be missing some other rule about it, but if a third level paladin explicitly can use a wand, I don't see why a paladin's inability to prepare the spells he knows would affect wand use, RAW.

[NeoSeraphi]

I am indeed wrong concerning scrolls, but not wands AFAIK. All you need for spell trigger items is for the spell to be on your class list. I might be missing some other rule about it, but if a third level paladin explicitly can use a wand, I don't see why a paladin's inability to prepare the spells he knows would affect wand use, RAW.

True. I should not have included wands in that statement.

[kardar233]

Song of the Heart. Requires Inspire Competence (so, your 3rd level feat, generally), and gives a +1 to your Inspire Courage numbers. If you look up Masterworked Instruments in Complete Adventurer, you'll note that some of them also give a +1 to Inspire Courage. Then, the Badge of Valor in the Magic Item Compendium can be activated for another +1 to Inspire Courage. A Vest of Legends increases your effective Bard level by 5 for purposes of Inspire Courage, which generally ends up being an additional +1.

Using the Eberron Bard substitution levels (either PGtE or ECS) you can swap Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart, free of charge.

[Gwendol]

You also might want to look into the Purple Dragon Knight prestige class; it also has an inspire courage ability, among other buffing and debuffing features that synergizes well with both the bard and the paladin.

Note there are two versions of the class: one has awful pre-reqs but lets you continue advance as a paladin (CW), while the other is more accessible but seem not to allow paladin advancement (PGtF).