The Sandman

[Newman]

A comicbook series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman_%28Vertigo%29) by Neil Gaiman. This is the story of stories. And it's probably the awesomest book I've ever read, even if its awesome builds upon a huge cultural heritage.

Right now I've finished reading the story of Prez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman:_Worlds%27_End#.28.2354.29_.22The_Gold en_Boy.22). It was heartwernching...

[Yora]

It's really good, but it seems to lack any real plot. Somethimes there are storylines in which Dream and Death peek in, but it never feels like anything had been achieved or changed.
Which in this case doesn't neccessarily have to be a bad thing. It's just how their existance is, and being literarily Eternal and present for the entire existance of the universe, there never is really anything special happening to them.

This is a comic where truly the journey is the destination. It's not about getting anything done or making any discoveries. It's just time passing by.

[Selrahc]

It's really good, but it seems to lack any real plot. Somethimes there are storylines in which Dream and Death peek in, but it never feels like anything had been achieved or changed.

Huh? Doll's House, Season of Mists, A Game of You, Brief Lives and Kindly Ones are all fairly traditional self contained story structures. The entire series has a quite strong meta narrative thread about the way that Dream is driving his own destruction which culminates in the Kindly Ones and has the Wake as an epilogue.

Plot runs all the way through Sandman. Dream just isn't always the main character in any particular storyline.

And I think the charge that nothing of consequence is achieved or happens is very hollow.

[Dienekes]

It's really good, but it seems to lack any real plot. Somethimes there are storylines in which Dream and Death peek in, but it never feels like anything had been achieved or changed.
Which in this case doesn't neccessarily have to be a bad thing. It's just how their existance is, and being literarily Eternal and present for the entire existance of the universe, there never is really anything special happening to them.

This is a comic where truly the journey is the destination. It's not about getting anything done or making any discoveries. It's just time passing by.

You've finished the series right? I mean I agree with you that some of the books are just a collection of short stories, and those are great. But there is a definite narrative going on as Morpheus realizes that his personality and the way he handles things may be detrimental and how he is self-destructive.

Personally though this is one of my favorite comic series. My only complaint is that I thought the more cartoony artwork for the Kindly Ones didn't fit as well as the darker more realistic artwork seen in different books would have.

[Newman]

Admittedly, this story's got Bleach levels of posing, especially from Dream, who is known to be a drama queen. I'm kind of depressed that Daniel Newdreamguy didn't get much screentime, he was pretty charismatic, in a bishonen way. His father could scare the crap out of you just by standing there and staring.

[Liffguard]

Love The Sandman. Anyone read the spinoff Lucifer series? Personally, I think it's almost as good as the parent series, albeit in a very different way.

[Newman]

Lucifer is kind of a prick. Honestly, I always felt very detached from him and his victims... but what he did to the books... was a Moral Event Horizon to me. From that point on, I hated him, unconditionally.

There's one thing I don't get about Black!Dream. Why is he so obsessed with rules and responsibilities? And why are the Dream and the Delirium realms so different.

You know the scene that scared me the most in the whole story? Dream faces Doctor Destiny. Ruby thing happens. Doctor Destiny now notices he's standing on Dream's hand. Dream then goes on to have mercy on him.

That was scary. Are there really any rules to the Dreaming? Not to mention the insane troll logic everything seems to run on... which still makes sense, of sorts. A city's dreams: the frightening thing is that it might wake up. What else would it do?

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's really good, but it seems to lack any real plot.

Perhaps the simplest response to this is because it is a true series, not a story. Even the ending could keep going largely unchanged though it would likely degrade in quality as Gaiman evidently achieved what he wished. Still Endless Nights is no less a volume for not being in the series proper.


Love The Sandman. Anyone read the spinoff Lucifer series? Personally, I think it's almost as good as the parent series, albeit in a very different way.

I disagree and feel its conclusions and actions were more mundane from the bits I sampled of the ending. At this point Lucifer being sympathetic and God being somehow flawed is the bigger cliche among modern works. Mind you I only sampled it a few times particularly the ending.

[Newman]

Lucifer is kind of a prick. Honestly, I always felt very detached from him and his victims... but what he did to the books... was a Moral Event Horizon to me. From that point on, I hated him, unconditionally.

There's one thing I don't get about Black!Dream. Why is he so obsessed with rules and responsibilities? And why are the Dream and the Delirium realms so different.

That was scary. Are there really any rules to the Dreaming? Not to mention the insane troll logic everything seems to run on... which still makes sense, of sorts. A city's dreams: the frightening thing is that it might wake up. What else would it do?

[Liffguard]

I disagree and feel its conclusions and actions were more mundane from the bits I sampled of the ending. At this point Lucifer being sympathetic and God being somehow flawed is the bigger cliche among modern works. Mind you I only sampled it a few times particularly the ending.

Lucifer is far from sympathetic throughout the narrative. He's more than just kind of a prick, he's an outright sociopath and that's the basic point of his character. Spoiler: At one point he annihilates billions upon billions of people - not just kills but destroys their souls - because the alternative would have been a bit more inconvenient for him. Lucifer's story-arc is based around the paradox that he yearns for an absolute freedom he cannot obtain because he considers it an imposition to be influenced by anybody or anything in any capacity. Ultimately he (spoiler) exiles himself from all creation to fly for eternity through an endless empty void, as that is the only way he can be truly free. He's a tragic character in many ways, but not really a sympathetic one. IMO the sympathetic POV character was supposed to be Ellaine Belloc.

[WalkingTarget]

Right now I've finished reading the story of Prez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman:_Worlds%27_End#.28.2354.29_.22The_Gold en_Boy.22). It was heartwernching...

The thing about that story (and something that a lot of people miss about the series in general), Prez isn't a Gaiman creation.

Prez Rickard, Cain & Abel, Eve, Lucian (Dream's librarian), Hector and Lyta Hall, f***ing Destiny, and others were existing DC characters that Gaiman used. A lot of them were just disused/forgotten figures that Gaiman wove into the story he wanted to tell. Unlike a lot of Vertigo titles, The Sandman is firmly entrenched in the mainstream DC continuity (although it only really intersects with it occasionally in a manner that anybody who only knows the main superhero books would notice).

[Newman]

I knew that. Even the average muggles often come from DC. But Sandman has such a different tone. It really doesn't work like a crossover. Otherwise it'd have explored the dreams of Superman, Batman and the other moving statues, and Lucifer would go Darkseid at his enemies rather than just ****ing their **** up with words and wits.

[Occasional Sage]

The thing about that story (and something that a lot of people miss about the series in general), Prez isn't a Gaiman creation.

Prez Rickard, Cain & Abel, Eve, Lucian (Dream's librarian), Hector and Lyta Hall, f***ing Destiny, and others were existing DC characters that Gaiman used. A lot of them were just disused/forgotten figures that Gaiman wove into the story he wanted to tell. Unlike a lot of Vertigo titles, The Sandman is firmly entrenched in the mainstream DC continuity (although it only really intersects with it occasionally in a manner that anybody who only knows the main superhero books would notice).

That's what Gaimen's original contract was: take an old superhero and update the title. That's why there's such a strong presence of the DC Universe in the first arc, including an explanation of why there are two so-different DC Sandmen.

[WalkingTarget]

I knew that. Even the average muggles often come from DC. But Sandman has such a different tone. It really doesn't work like a crossover. Otherwise it'd have explored the dreams of Superman, Batman and the other moving statues, and Lucifer would go Darkseid at his enemies rather than just ****ing their **** up with words and wits.

Heh, slight (like 1 panel) spoiler from the last collection: Bats, Supes, and the Martian Manhunter have a cameo.

[Newman]

J'on had one waaaay earlier

[Axolotl]

That's what Gaimen's original contract was: take an old superhero and update the title. That's why there's such a strong presence of the DC Universe in the first arc, including an explanation of why there are two so-different DC Sandmen.Wasn't it the other way around? Gaiman asked to bring back the old superhero The Sandman like Moore had done with Swamp thing and Morrison was doing with Animal Man but DC just told him he could use the title but not the character?

I think that's what it says in the foreword to the first trade, I don't have my copy with me so I'm not certain.

[WalkingTarget]

J'on had one waaaay earlier

True, this one is just the three of them having a little (and pretty funny) chat.

[H Birchgrove]

That's what Gaimen's original contract was: take an old superhero and update the title. That's why there's such a strong presence of the DC Universe in the first arc, including an explanation of why there are two so-different DC Sandmen.

Three different Sandmen, actually.

The original pulp-styled 1940's vigilante, the 1970's super-hero by Jack Kirby, and Neil Gaiman's.

I hated how Gaiman's Sandman killed of Kirby's Sandman and kidnapped his child. Because he was born in Dreamland. :smallannoyed:

[WalkingTarget]

Three different Sandmen, actually.

The original pulp-styled 1940's vigilante, the 1970's super-hero by Jack Kirby, and Neil Gaiman's.

I hated how Gaiman's Sandman killed of Kirby's Sandman and kidnapped his child. Because he was born in Dreamland. :smallannoyed:

Well, Hector Hall was already dead. He was being held in the Dreaming improperly by the renegade nightmares, Brute and Glob, and Dream just sent the "little ghost" on to where he should have gone long ago.

Also: Dream didn't take Daniel, that was Loki and the Puck.

Edit - by which I mean that by the time that the Corinthian found him and brought him back to the Dreaming it was kind of too late to do anything about it anyway.

[H Birchgrove]

Well, Hector Hall was already dead. He was being held in the Dreaming improperly by the renegade nightmares, Brute and Glob, and Dream just sent the "little ghost" on to where he should have gone long ago.

Also: Dream didn't take Daniel, that was Loki and the Puck.

Edit - by which I mean that by the time that the Corinthian found him and brought him back to the Dreaming it was kind of too late to do anything about it anyway.
I've evidently forgotten the details. :smallsigh:
Morpheus was still prickish toward Daniel's mother, IMHO. :smallannoyed:

[WalkingTarget]

I've evidently forgotten the details. :smallsigh:
Morpheus was still prickish toward Daniel's mother, IMHO. :smallannoyed:

Morpheus was that way with pretty much everybody, though. Doesn't make him a better "person", but it's fairly consistent.

[Premier]

There's one thing I don't get about Black!Dream. Why is he so obsessed with rules and responsibilities?

That's sort of adressed, albeit in an oblique way. In Nada's storyline, it's mentioned that various rules were placed in effect by the Endless long ago, after one of them fell in love with a mortal, leading to some sort of catastrophe. Now, knowing their personalities, it was probably Dream who was responsible for the event in the first place, and he likely felt guilty about it ever after. It would make sense that he would be the most conscious of how important it is for the powerful to follow certain rules, having seen (and caused) the effects of not doing so first hand.

[Selrahc]

That's sort of adressed, albeit in an oblique way. In Nada's storyline, it's mentioned that various rules were placed in effect by the Endless long ago, after one of them fell in love with a mortal, leading to some sort of catastrophe. Now, knowing their personalities, it was probably Dream who was responsible for the event in the first place, and he likely felt guilty about it ever after. It would make sense that he would be the most conscious of how important it is for the powerful to follow certain rules, having seen (and caused) the effects of not doing so first hand.

Pretty good instincts there, since that's what we see(albeit, partially) in Dream's story in Endless Nights.

[Premier]

Pretty good instincts there, since that's what we see(albeit, partially) in Dream's story in Endless Nights.


Yeah, but we don't see the culmination of it all there. Assumably it wasn't pretty.

[Thufir]

Admittedly, this story's got Bleach levels of posing, especially from Dream, who is known to be a drama queen. I'm kind of depressed that Daniel Newdreamguy didn't get much screentime, he was pretty charismatic, in a bishonen way. His father could scare the crap out of you just by standing there and staring.

Er, Dream was not Dream's father. He was also Dream.


Love The Sandman. Anyone read the spinoff Lucifer series? Personally, I think it's almost as good as the parent series, albeit in a very different way.

Read it. I like it. Don't know if I'd say it's quite up to the standard of Sandman, but it's good.


At this point Lucifer being sympathetic and God being somehow flawed is the bigger cliche among modern works.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work if done well.
Also, what Liffguard said. While he's a bit sympathetic, because you can kind of see where he's coming from with the whole freedom thing, there are no real illusions throughout the series that he is anything other than what he is. And what he is is not nice. Though equally he's not really nasty either. He doesn't feel malice towards the people he ends up destroying. He just doesn't care enough to avoid it.
What he is is pure, and absolute. Once he sets his mind to something, he will give it his all (Which is a hell of a lot), holding nothing back. Which turns out badly for anyone unfortunate enough to be in his way.


I've evidently forgotten the details. :smallsigh:
Morpheus was still prickish toward Daniel's mother, IMHO. :smallannoyed:

Depends on how you look at it. I mean, yeah, he certainly could have been more sensitive about it, but as far as he's concerned, he told her some things, all of which were true, and then he left. It's not his fault she was hysterical.

[Gaius Marius]

Lucifer is kind of a prick. Honestly, I always felt very detached from him and his victims... but what he did to the books... was a Moral Event Horizon to me. From that point on, I hated him, unconditionally.


You can say that.

It's also like saying Hell is a bit on the painful side!


Sandman and Lucifer are probably two of my favourite serie ever. Very very good...

[Dr.Epic]

Sandman=AWESOME!!!

however...

Sandman<Watchmen

though

everything<Watchmen

[Gaius Marius]

Sandman=AWESOME!!!

however...

Sandman<Watchmen

though

everything<Watchmen

Dr Horrible? :smallfrown:

[Dr.Epic]

Dr Horrible? :smallfrown:

I have no idea what you're talking about as it's not like my screen name is based on anything or anyone or a super cool musical by Joss Whedon so you shouldn't get that idea when looking at my screen name.:smallwink:

[Gaius Marius]

I have no idea what you're talking about as it's not like my screen name is based on anything or anyone or a super cool musical by Joss Whedon so you shouldn't get that idea when looking at my screen name.:smallwink:

Yhea. But in the hypothetic scenario that this kind of show existed, would it be > Watchmen?

[Dr.Epic]

Yhea. But in the hypothetic scenario that this kind of show existed, would it be > Watchmen?

I don't know. It sounds horrible.:smallwink:

[Gaius Marius]

I don't know. It sounds horrible.:smallwink:

*Critical pun* *Confirmed*

/rolls 2d20 of sanity damage



I walked into that one, didn't I? :smallfrown:

[Dr.Epic]

*Critical pun* *Confirmed*

/rolls 2d20 of sanity damage



I walked into that one, didn't I? :smallfrown:

You yes sir, you sure did.:smallwink:

[Newman]

Er, Dream was not Dream's father. He was also Dream.


No reason he can't be both. Guy didn't even attend his own funeral.

DREAM LOGIC, PEOPLE.



It's also like saying Hell is a bit on the painful side!

I was making an understatement. And yes, the ocean is a bit damp, and the surface of the sun is rather warm.

There's just one thing I don't get: why is everyone scared of YHWH? All the gods, even the Endless, shy before him. Same with Lucifer, who's treated as the second most powerful being in the Universe. And if the Gaimanverse really crossed over with the DC main verse instead of exploiting some characters, you'd think the Justice League would at least want to find out what's going on with threats of this level.

[Eldan]

Sandman did cross over here and there, but they kept it minimal. The martian manhunter showing up a bit, a mention or two of Batman, the other Sandmen... they tried to keep the big names out.

There were a few more crossovers with the rest of Vertigo, though. Constantine made an appearance. And Death and Destiny, as far as I'm aware, have shown up in main DC, though I haven't read any of that stuff.

[Liffguard]

There's just one thing I don't get: why is everyone scared of YHWH? All the gods, even the Endless, shy before him. Same with Lucifer, who's treated as the second most powerful being in the Universe.

Because in the Sandman universe he's not just a god, he's God, the big man, alpha & omega etc. There's lots of other small-g gods running around alongside other powerful beings like the Endless and Lucifer and the Furies and such like, but the ultimate cosmological backdrop to the story is broadly based on christian myhtology. God is God, omnipotent, omniscient etc.

[Eldan]

Was he in Sandman, too? I didn't really get that impression, there.

[Tirian]

(As an aside, can we please be specific that we're talking about the leader of the Silver City in Vertigo Comics here and keep from tying it to real-world religions? No sense in getting shut down.)

Anyway, yes. Lucifer was described as the most powerful being in big-C Creation and second in power only to the being against whom he led the rebellion.

Two notes are important, though. The first is that it's not entirely clear whether the Endless count as part of creation or philosophical entities that exist outside of it. And the second is that, as hinted in The Dream of a Thousand Cats, one might speculate that the Silver City exists as the motivation of all Creation only because a significant portion of the sentients in the Vertigo universe willed it to be so.

[WalkingTarget]

Two notes are important, though. The first is that it's not entirely clear whether the Endless count as part of creation or philosophical entities that exist outside of it. And the second is that, as hinted in The Dream of a Thousand Cats, one might speculate that the Silver City exists as the motivation of all Creation only because a significant portion of the sentients in the Vertigo universe willed it to be so.

Not just in DoaTC. There's a theme running through a large portion of it that the gods' power/influence is a function of the belief they get (Bast gets less scruffy looking when a boy at a cat show looks at an Abyssinian cat and, for a moment, sees a goddess). Gaiman returns to this theme in American Gods, but I always got the feeling that the creator of the Silver City here probably operated in the same way. Enough people believe that there is this omnipotent, omniscient, being that there is (and always has been) one. That's also why Hell is such prime psychic real estate in Season of Mists.

The Endless are noted as not being on that scale; they embody their functions even if nobody knows about them (although, as we see with Destruction, things can work out even if not being directed).

Edit @ V - Oh, totally agreed. I was just elaborating on your point rather than saying you didn't go far enough with the assertion.

[Tirian]

Not just in DoaTC. There's a theme running through a large portion of it that the gods' power/influence is a function of the belief they get (Bast gets less scruffy looking when a boy at a cat show looks at an Abyssinian cat and, for a moment, sees a goddess).

Agreed. My point is that DoaTC makes a broader case that belief is so powerful that it shapes the past and not just the present. The Silver City is at the center of the universe and always has been and always will be, but that's not to say that five hundred years ago it was Faerie that was at the center of the universe and always had been and always will be or that the day after tomorrow The Winslow is at the center of the universe and always has been and always will be.

[Gaius Marius]

Agreed. My point is that DoaTC makes a broader case that belief is so powerful that it shapes the past and not just the present. The Silver City is at the center of the universe and always has been and always will be, but that's not to say that five hundred years ago it was Faerie that was at the center of the universe and always had been and always will be or that the day after tomorrow The Winslow is at the center of the universe and always has been and always will be.

Isn't this something that was already brushed upon by Pratchet? Like, "this is a place that always have been. It always have been there since 2 months ago"

[Eldan]

Sounds like something Pratchett could write. Small Gods did touch on similar subjects. The same thing was in the Neverending Story.

[T-O-E]

I've recently got the first book, the one with the key to Hell and A Game of You. They're pretty good and I'm planning on getting more.

I really like the mystical, weird, dream aspects of the series, for the same reason I like the Death books in the Discworld series.

I spoiled myself on the internet so when I came to the series I was surprised by a few things. For one, I assumed the Endless were the most powerful beings in the universe and gods were just belief based. Secondly, I thought Morpheus was going to be a much worse person. I know he condemned that woman to Hell but he seemed to regret it and was generally nice to humans, even Dr Destiny who had been trying to destroy him. Yeah, there's a lot of disproportionate retribution but I was expecting something even worse.

It's a bit pretentious and namedroppy sometimes. Also Gaiman retroactively stole my ideas and that sucks.

[Newman]

I've recently got the first book, the one with the key to Hell and A Game of You. They're pretty good and I'm planning on getting more.

I really like the mystical, weird, dream aspects of the series, for the same reason I like the Death books in the Discworld series.

I spoiled myself on the internet so when I came to the series I was surprised by a few things. For one, I assumed the Endless were the most powerful beings in the universe and gods were just belief based. Secondly, I thought Morpheus was going to be a much worse person. I know he condemned that woman to Hell but he seemed to regret it and was generally nice to humans, even Dr Destiny who had been trying to destroy him. Yeah, there's a lot of disproportionate retribution but I was expecting something even worse.

It's a bit pretentious and namedroppy sometimes. Also Gaiman retroactively stole my ideas and that sucks.

Errr... aren't they?

[Tirian]

Errr... aren't they?

That question is arguably the central theme of the series. Is Morpheus utterly powerful because he can do anything he needs to do, or utterly powerless because he can't do anything else?

[Newman]

What about the other Endless? And why do they have the personalities they have? Epecially Destruction.

Also, Slaneesh VS Desire: who wins?

[zingbat]

Also, Slaneesh VS Desire: who wins?

Desire. "Oh, you're a chaos god? That's adorable!"

[Eldan]

Slaanesh has an army.

Desire is alone.

Slaanesh can't possibly win.



I mean, look at Azazel. Desire doesn't need belief. Slaanesh kinda does.

[Rockbird]

A key thing about Sandman is that direct power comparisons just don't work. It's all tied up in circumstance and rules and other such things; the Endless in their realms are basically unbeatable, but the Furies show that enough obscure rules (and a lovestruck elf) can turn that on it's head.

Those glimpses of the minutiae of metaphysical laws are probably my favorite things about the series.

[Tiki Snakes]

A key thing about Sandman is that direct power comparisons just don't work. It's all tied up in circumstance and rules and other such things; the Endless in their realms are basically unbeatable, but the Furies show that enough obscure rules (and a lovestruck elf) can turn that on it's head.

Those glimpses of the minutiae of metaphysical laws are probably my favorite things about the series.

I thought the whole point of that situation was that "enough obscure rules (and a lovestruck elf) can turn that on it's head" providing that the Endless in question secretly wants them to succeed for whatever perverse reason?

[Dumbledore lives]

I really love the concept of the endless, because on a whole they are such an alien people, something that should be entirely beyond human perception and as powerful as they want to be. But they are so utterly human, fallible, and as stated previously can be thought of as powerless, I mean it seems like even Destiny can't do anything to change what's in the big book.

The Sandman also has the best use of the line "The king is dead. Long live the king" I've ever heard, it just fits so fell, with everything in the books really. And I put it ahead of Watchmen personally, but that is more of opinion than anything else, as the things are on two quite different scales.