Any published playgrounders?

[danzibr]

So I have aspirations of publishing novels. Currently I have 3 math papers published and a fourth submitted, but that's quite different. I plan on writing 9+ novels. I have the first done, ~330k words, and the second just broke 200k words (planning to finish it by this coming July). Hopefully I'll have four written before I start sending it off to people.

I know I'll probably get a lot of, "It's impossibly hard to publish, don't bother," but I'm wondering... for those of you who do have novels published, how did that go?

[Mercenary Pen]

I haven't got any experience with the publishing industry myself, but I've taken part in NaNoWriMo (national novel writing month) for the past three years, and their forums (http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/dashboard) have a wealth of relevant information about publishing in general.

I am wondering whether the books you're writing are bigger than most publishers would be willing to take a chance on with a previously unpublished author (for example, I've heard that the average word count for a science fiction novel is between 80k and 120k words)

[AtlanteanTroll]

*cough* Eragon has 200K~ words *cough*

[Mercenary Pen]

*cough* Eragon has 200K~ words *cough*

Fair enough- perhaps my information was a little bit outdated. On the other hand, that's still nowhere close to the 330k words the OP has in his first novel...

[Circle of Life]

My best advice to you would be to find an agent with a history of getting books published by the publishers you're looking for. Someone who has a monthly lunch with Joe Editor is a lot more likely to get a manuscript into Joe's hands than the interns making paper dolls out of the hundreds of slush pile rejects they get every day.

If you don't care who publishes the book, then mass-mailing (with tailored cover pages, obviously) can work, but really... if you have the money for it, I'd advise ponying up for a good agent until you establish yourself in the field.

Edit: Also, 330k sounds ambitious, but don't be surprised if that wordcount doesn't survive the editing process.

Edit 2: Also, never sign a boilerplate contract. Ever. Not even then.

[Kneenibble]

I've not had a novel published -- I've not even tried to write something that long. I've had two short stories published in journals, however. Short fiction or poetry journals are eminently more approachable and seem like a far better shot than trying to get a novel out there off the bat.

[Tyndmyr]

No novel, but a small blog, a few articles on google knol, something over 42k readers so far. One day, a book of mine might be sufficiently complete to publish.

So, anyway, brevity is a virtue. Edit harshly. If traditional publishing fails, try self publishing online.

[dehro]

on the nanowrimo forum there was a published fantasy author (the name escapes me right now) who was adamant that lenght has little to do with getting published (within reason..anyway you can check her thread in the fantasy section of the forum to which the link you've already got). she said that if you have a trilogy in mind, there's no point in trying to hide that from the agent and/or editor/publisher. what matters is quality.

[Cristo Meyers]

I've not had a novel published -- I've not even tried to write something that long. I've had two short stories published in journals, however. Short fiction or poetry journals are eminently more approachable and seem like a far better shot than trying to get a novel out there off the bat.

Kneen's got it right. Your best bet is to go and try to get some shorts published in magazines and the like. It doesn't matter if it's paid or not, just that you get a publishing credit. The analogy I like to tell people is sending a novel to an agent with no other publishing credits is like sending in a resume with no work experience. Can it work? Certainly. Is it likely to work? Absolutely not.

Having those credits tells the agent and potential publishers that at least someone thinks you're profitable, and that's a big thing.



So, anyway, brevity is a virtue. Edit harshly. If traditional publishing fails, try self publishing online.

Online/E-Book self-publishing is also definitely something to keep in mind. It's a different market out there now, or at least it's becoming one. Just be aware that self-publishing is a wholly different dynamic than traditional: almost all of the responsibility falls directly on you and you won't have the Roc/Bantam/etc name backing you up. There'll always be people that'll look down on you for self-publishing, that's never going away, but there's also a rising Indie E-book market that you could tap into.

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220866) has some food for thought on the matter.

##Edit: For what's it's worth, I think you should go for the traditional publishing first. Goals are nothing if you don't reach for them, eh? Just be aware that you have other options and what taking those options would entail.

[Mercenary Pen]

on the nanowrimo forum there was a published fantasy author (the name escapes me right now) who was adamant that lenght has little to do with getting published (within reason..anyway you can check her thread in the fantasy section of the forum to which the link you've already got). she said that if you have a trilogy in mind, there's no point in trying to hide that from the agent and/or editor/publisher. what matters is quality.

I'm assuming this (http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/fantasy/threads/16220) is the thread you meant... I'm posting the link myself because those forums are pretty massive, and sometimes the less time trying to find what you need, the better.

[Xyk]

I have the first done, ~330k words, and the second just broke 200k words (planning to finish it by this coming July).


*cough* Eragon has 200K~ words *cough*

That's a lot of gorram words! Eragon was huge! 330,000 words is 1.65 times bigger! That book will be even more massive than all the things on my desk!

[Vacant]

on the nanowrimo forum there was a published fantasy author (the name escapes me right now) who was adamant that lenght has little to do with getting published (within reason..anyway you can check her thread in the fantasy section of the forum to which the link you've already got). she said that if you have a trilogy in mind, there's no point in trying to hide that from the agent and/or editor/publisher. what matters is quality marketability.

I think you made a typo, there. :smallwink: Really, though, my friends involved in publishing from one end or another say essentially the same thing; the paper and ink is going to be negligible if they think it'll really sell.

Short stories are also a lot easier to get published, I may have one published soon. I'm also apparently getting published in a critical theory journal. Woo semiotics.

[Lither]

So you wanna publish a book? (http://www.soyouwanna.com/soyouwanna-publish-book-1093.html) This guide is one of the best I've found. I don't know how much is on there that you know, but it is worth a read. Much of it has been said here, but it presents a step-by-step guide.

The only other advice I can give you is to be prepared to edit hard to get the publisher liking your book.

[Alarra]

I would heartily recommend an agent. Though I've never actually finished any of my books to the point of being willing to send them out to anyone, I did work for a publishing company for a couple years. Agented pieces are faaaar more likely to be looked at and taken seriously than those that aren't. Self-publishing is a good way to go, and, for example, if you self-publish your first book and it is well received, it would give you a better pitch to the standard publishers because they would know that you already have an audience to tap.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, self-publishing can be pretty cool, and there are some good ways to go about it nowadays. One question is why you want it published: if you just want it because it would be cool to be published and your friends and you and such could buy a copy, you can do things like self-publish and do print by purchase copies through places like CreateSpace, which is what a friend of mine did with her novel, Colorshock.

My cousin has finished a trilogy and is looking around for more professional publishing, but she is in no hurry: it's always an option to just send it around, and maybe eventually you'll get some kind of positive response back. (But yeah, as others have said, be very very aware of what you're getting into before you make any agreements!)

Myself, I am just starting my first proper full length novel, but I am also an independent publisher of short stories with a fiction magazine I started, Tales from the Menagerie (http://www.talesfromthemenagerie.com/), just taking submissions from anybody and publishing monthly issues.

[Dr.Epic]

Does a blog count?

[SaintRidley]

Just some poems and essays so far here.

Don't be afraid to take the scissors to your stuff and cut it down. Always worth double checking that every word is actually pulling some weight.

[factotum]

*cough* Eragon has 200K~ words *cough*

And it was written by a guy whose parents are publishers...those of us who don't have that advantage need to keep things a bit shorter. :smallwink:

[Circle of Life]

And it was written by a guy whose parents are publishers...those of us who don't have that advantage need to keep things a bit shorter. :smallwink:

It depends. The Wheel of Time, for instance, ranges from 120k to just shy of 400k wordcount on the various books. Pro-or-anti-Jordan, I don't think anyone can argue that the books would be very different to read if they were trimmed down below 200k.

[Jimorian]

If you don't care who publishes the book, then mass-mailing (with tailored cover pages, obviously) can work, but really... if you have the money for it, I'd advise ponying up for a good agent until you establish yourself in the field.

Never never never NEVER pay an agent up front. An agent ONLY makes money from you when they SELL your book to a publisher, then they get a percentage of that. An agent who asks for money before that is a scam at worst, useless at best.

[Mercenary Pen]

It depends. The Wheel of Time, for instance, ranges from 120k to just shy of 400k wordcount on the various books. Pro-or-anti-Jordan, I don't think anyone can argue that the books would be very different to read if they were trimmed down below 200k.

As long as the first book of the set was within the lower bound of that range, it would fit my theory, because generally publishers will print thicker books from authors who have become known quantities, the ones they know have a decent sized audience and they will actually recoup their investment from.

[factotum]

As long as the first book of the set was within the lower bound of that range, it would fit my theory

Although Robert Jordan is best known for the Wheel of Time (first book of which is 685 pages in UK hardback, not sure how many words that translates into), he'd already written quite a few things before that and would presumably have been considered a safe pair of hands. For a first time writer to get a book that size published would mean it'd have to be a pretty awesome book (barring nepotism :-)).

[Tyndmyr]

Does a blog count?

Possibly. I know some people count popular blogs as being published. Got a friend celebrating 400k hits on his blog atm. It might not be a traditional venue, but at some point, if you're writing it, and others are reading it, I'd say it counts.

I do agree that 330k words on a first novel is likely a handicap. Publishers reccomend what, 80k-120k for a first time novel? Sure, all rules are somewhat flexible, but if you're well outside the bounds of normality, there's a notable risk that people just won't look at it.

[DraPrime]

I have a friend who is a writer, and an avenue that he pursued was ghost writing. It's apparently not that hard to get it, since he was doing this while still in high school. He was employed by Games Workshop to write fluff for Warhammer 40k. This might be a way to get started in the writing business. As others have said, also try getting some short stories published. Start small, and then work your way up to writing novels.

[Circle of Life]

Never never never NEVER pay an agent up front. An agent ONLY makes money from you when they SELL your book to a publisher, then they get a percentage of that. An agent who asks for money before that is a scam at worst, useless at best.

I wasn't aware that there were even agents who charged up front, though I can see how that might be taken that way. Ugh, yes, paying up front would be a very bad idea.


As long as the first book of the set was within the lower bound of that range, it would fit my theory, because generally publishers will print thicker books from authors who have become known quantities, the ones they know have a decent sized audience and they will actually recoup their investment from.

The first book actually clocked in at over 300k, so not really. Exceptions to every rule exist though, and he'd already published other things under other names, so yeah.

[dehro]

I'm assuming this (http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/fantasy/threads/16220) is the thread you meant... I'm posting the link myself because those forums are pretty massive, and sometimes the less time trying to find what you need, the better.

thank you for making up for my lazyness. that is it indeed

[Maxios]

I'm currently working on a book to sell as an eBook on Barnes and Noble. So far, I'm only at 1500 words.

[Mercenary Pen]

I'm currently working on a book to sell as an eBook on Barnes and Noble. So far, I'm only at 1500 words.

1500? That's not even a day's writing... Drop and give me at least 1667 more.

[Maxios]

1500? That's not even a day's writing... Drop and give me at least 1667 more.

Well, it's not going to be a long book. It's three Heroix short stories. The first one, the one I'm writing now, involves a daemon from another realm called the Controller and a mage teaming up with the team to banish the abomination. Who knows, maybe I'll post an excerpt soon.

[danzibr]

Well, it's not going to be a long book. It's three Heroix short stories. The first one, the one I'm writing now, involves a daemon from another realm called the Controller and a mage teaming up with the team to banish the abomination. Who knows, maybe I'll post an excerpt soon.
Oooh yes please. Especially if it's 1500 words.

[Maxios]

Oooh yes please. Especially if it's 1500 words.

I'll probably post the first half of The Face in the Mirror (the name of the short story I mentioned) once I finish it.

[factotum]

I'll probably post the first half of The Face in the Mirror (the name of the short story I mentioned) once I finish it.

You're not intending to get them published in any way, then?

[Silviya]

I'm not published myself (though I do hope to be in the future), but many people in my writing group have published short stories, one has published a novel, and one is probably about to get an agent for her novel, so I've learned a fair bit about publishing over the years. This post is probably going to end up being a huge wall of text.

Getting novels published is hard, though it seems like you're already aware of that, so I won't dwell on that too much.

So, firstly, I'm going to be making several references to my writing group, our experiences with publishing, and what we've been told by professional authors. My writing group is not a standard writing group. Basically, we're many of the people who have gone to the writing camp Alpha (we call ourselves "Alphans"), and we have a Google group online where we critique each other's stories, give each other advice, and talk about writing, as well as keeping in touch over various internet chats and FB. Alpha is a ten speculative fiction camp for teen writers, taught by a group of staff (who have all published a large amount of short stories) and four guest authors, who are all well published and fairly well known--Tamora Pierce, Timothy Zahn, Ellen Kushner, and Holly Black being some examples from the years I went. The guest authors have all given us very useful advice on publishing, and shared their stories on how they got their first books published.


Okay, enough rambling about my writing group, and on to actual advice on publishing:

Firstly, get an agent. It isn't really possible at all to get published without an agent. Also, from what I've seen, getting an agent is as hard as getting the book published once you have an agent. Remember the person in my writing group who is probably about to get an agent? She wrote the first draft of her novel in about two years, I think. Then she spent another year or so revising it and rewriting it. Then she started submitting it to agents, and about maybe eight months later, an agent told her to make X changes, and then the agent would consider it again. She made the changes, and resent it to the agent. The agent told her to make more changes, so she did. Etc. Finally, she's sent it back to the agent for final consideration, and hopefully the agent will buy it. Tammy (Tamora Pierce) went through basically the same thing to get her first book series, The Song of the Lioness, published. Actually, the series started out as one long, adult book, and she was told to split it into four shorter books and make it YA, which she did. Then she revised the books a ton, and finally she was told that if she made a few more changes, the publisher would buy her books. This is, from what I've heard, pretty much how getting one's first book published works, always. When you submit a novel to an agent, you are not looking to hear "Yes, I will buy this and try to get it published!" You are looking for a revise and resubmit, or, in other words "Make these changes, send it to me again, and I'll see if I want to buy it, if I want you to make changes again, or if I don't want it." You'll probably have to go through several revise and resubmits, and they are not in any way guarantees that the agent will buy it, just that they are interested in it.
Always submit your novel manuscript to multiple agents at once. Agents take a long time to get back to you on things, and if you submit to just one agent at a time, you'll be waiting forever. If an agent says that they don't want you to submit manuscripts to them when you've also submitted them to other agents, don't submit it to that agent. After an agent gives you a revise and resubmit, they may as you to not submit it to any more agents, and this is perfectly reasonable.

Series are much harder to publish than stand alone novels. If you want to publish a series, make sure that the first book wraps up the conflict decently, so that the rest of the books in the series don't have to be published for the story to have a conclusion. This is because publishers want to see how well a book sells before committing to a series, in case it sells poorly. One thing that I've noticed with several authors (Tammy being a good example) is that their early books tend to wrap up the plot more within each individual book, while their later books tend to have more cliffhanger-ish endings, because the publisher knows with the later books that it will sell well, and don't mind committing to a series.

Shorter is good. Aim for 80k to 120k for adult, 60k to 90k for YA, from what I've heard. 330k is a lot of words. Either don't try to publish that book first, split it into a few smaller books, or take the word axe to it and chop off words like crazy, which may not be possible.



Like others have said, having published short stories will help a ton with getting an agent. However, even though it's easier to get short stories published than it is to get novel published, it is not easy. Here are some tips on publishing short stories and where to submit to:

Firstly, you may be more of a novel person. I know that I am. I like having lots of space to develop characters, weave together complex plots, create huge, interesting worlds, etc. I had never even considered writing short stories until I found out about Alpha, which requires a 6k words or less short story application to get in. I still like writing novels more than short stories. But I write short stories, because they're good practice, they're easier to publish, you can more easily get feedback on them (people are a lot more willing to read and critique a 6k story than a 100k story!), etc. If you don't write short stories, and you're really serious about being a published author, start writing short stories. There are many things that will be different about writing short stories than novels, from the plot and character development to the basic scene structure. My early short stories were horrible, largely because I hadn't figured that out yet. But you can learn with time and practice, and one of the best ways to learn is to read. Buy a bunch of short story anthologies, or read online short story magazines.

So enough on talking about writing short stories, and on to how to get them published:

First, shorter is much, much easier to publish. 4k is the ideal for many publishers, though some publishers like different lengths. The longer a story is, the better it has to be to be published. Try not to be like me and write mostly 8k short stories.

Secondly, and very importantly: Submit to paying markets. Yes, it's a hundred times harder to get published by a paying market than a non paying market. But every short story you write you spent many hard, painful, long hours on. Your stories are the fruit of your endless blood, sweat, and tears. You've brainstormed it, you've written a first draft, you've revised it and thrown it out and written a second draft and a third draft and maybe even a forth draft, and then you've edited and revised some more. You've worked hard and endlessly on your stories to make them as good as you possibly can, and dammit, you deserve to get paid for them. Here (http://alpha.spellcaster.org/2011/08/13/get-paid/) is a good blog post that one of the people from my writing group wrote on paid and unpaid publishing, which sums it up much better than I can.
Also, you may think that getting stories published for free will look good to agents, because hey, someone published your work, even if they didn't pay you for it, right? In reality, the best thing that having work published for free does, especially in small, not very well known magazines and such, is have to effect whatsoever on the agent. The worst case scanerio? It makes the agent less likely to take you seriously, because it makes you come across as either overly desperate to get your work published for the sake of having it published, or it makes them think that your work is clearly not good enough to submit to paying publishers, since you had to resort to non paying ones.

So where should you submit you short stories? Try to always submit to SFWA-qualifying markets. Three sales to those markets will get you a SFWA membership, which helps a ton. Here (http://alpha.spellcaster.org/2010/09/06/where-to-submit-your-stories/) is a blog posts on what markets to submit your short stories to, and here (http://www.sarahbrand.com/markets/) is a list of a bunch of professional, SFWA-qualifying markets. Generally, submit to the biggest, hardest to get published in, quickest replying markets first (Clarkesworld, Magizine of Science Fiction and Fantasy, etc.). Yes, they are the least likely to publish your work, but they reply quickly, so you might as well try. Gradually move on to the slower replying markets. Also, um, don't submit to Tor.com, even though it's on that list. They take forever to get back to you. One member of my writing group had her story there for 505 days, and another has had a story there for over two years now.
Also, duotrope (http://www.duotrope.com/) is your best friend in publishing short stories. It's awesome.

When submitting short stories, the best mindset to have about it is not looking for acceptances. You're looking for rejections. You want to hoard those rejections, look forward to them, print them out and frame them and hang them on your wall (okay, not really the last bit, but some members of my writing group do keep folders where they lovingly store all of their rejections). Why are you doing this? Because rejections are 99% of what you're going to get. You need to learn to love your rejections, or else you will be sad whenever one shows up in your inbox, or you'll be too afraid of rejection to submit short stories in the first place. When you submit to a market, don't think of it as submitting to get published, think of it as submitting a story so that you can add yet another shiny new rejection to your beautiful collection.
There are different levels of rejections: There's the form rejection, which will be fairly impersonal and is the lowest level of rejection. There's the form rejection plus your name and even the title of your story, which means that you were closer to getting published, and you almost certainly made it past the slush pile (note: some places always do this). There's the higher tier form rejection/sort of personal rejection, which will say something like "This was close/we liked this story, but we can only publish a few/this made it to the second round of review," and so on, which means that they liked your story even more. Then there are the full blown personal rejections, which are awesome. They will generally tell you what the editor liked about the story and also what they disliked (possibly the reason that they didn't buy it). This means that your story captured their attention enough that the editor, who is super busy, decided to put the effort into writing you a personal rejection. If you get a personal rejection from the main editor of a magazine, than it's even more awesome and you probably should print it out and frame it or something, or at least proudly show it to all your writing friends, who will be very happy for you.
After submitting stories and getting them rejected over and over and over again, eventually you will publish something, and when you open that email expecting another shiny new rejection, and instead, they say that they'd like to publish your story, and it will be shocking, but it will be awesome.



Anyway, I hope at least a little bit of what I said that wall of text was helpful and/or made sense. Good luck with any future publishing endeavors, be they novels or short stories or other writing! :smallsmile:

(edit: oh, wow, this really ended up being a huge wall of text :smalleek:)

[Jimorian]

I wasn't aware that there were even agents who charged up front, though I can see how that might be taken that way. Ugh, yes, paying up front would be a very bad idea.

Oh good, I'm glad that's not what you meant. It's just that the phrase "pony up" doesn't just mean "get" but "pay for", which like I said, in the world of agents is a really bad idea.

It used to be the same way for publishers, but with first Print on Demand, and now e-books, there are a lot of fully legitimate avenues where you have to pay, but the costs are clearly defined expenses on the part of the company.

For all of you considering one form of self-publishing or another, here's the most important indicator between a scam and a legit service: You pay, you control the rights. If you don't like the results, you should be able to take your work instantly down from their listing and be able to use a different service without any repercussions. Heck, you should be able to use several different services at the same time if that's what you wish.

[danzibr]

Wow, thanks Silviya. Hmmm... short stories. Yeah, that'll be a hard transition. I'll definitely look at those links. At least I have ~3 more years before I'll even consider trying to publish.

[blackfox]

You may want to contact Rutskarn (http://www.chocolatehammer.org/), who had a novel published earlier this year.

[Fri]

Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196247) also have, or going to have a novel published.

[Maxios]

You're not intending to get them published in any way, then?

Of course I'm planning to get it published...but as an eBook.

[Dogmantra]

Of course I'm planning to get it published...but as an eBook.

If you're planning on publishing with a publishing company, you might wanna not post excerpts online. It can count as publishing the work, and first publishing rights are much more important than any subsequent publishing, and sites such as forums or blog hosting places have a little disclaimer that you allow them to use stuff you post there, which would also preclude proper publishing.

Note: this is remembered stuff that I read once, so I may be wrong, but I don't think I am.

[factotum]

That's exactly what I meant, Dogmantra--putting a story up on a publically-accessible forum means you're throwing away first publication rights.

[Maxios]

Eh, I'll just publish it as an eBook on Barnes & Noble.

Edit: And how exactly am I losing publishing rights to my short story to the Giant by posting an except?

[Dogmantra]

This explains it relatively well (http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2009/03/first-publication-rights.html).

Basically, making the text publicly available counts as publishing it. Even an excerpt, in a lot of cases. Most publishers won't accept a previously published work unless it's obvious they'll make money from it (for good reason too, especially if it's available free - surely most people who would want to would already have read it)

And also, many sites, I have no idea if GitP has this, but it's better safe than sorry, have a disclaimer that they can use whatever you post there, effectively you give 'em rights to it. Better safe than sorry.

[Maxios]

I once read that posting something on the internet instantly gave you copyright for it.

[dehro]

I once read that posting something on the internet instantly gave you copyright for it.

that sounds like a fishy bit of information... I cannot help but suspect you found that somewhere unofficial, on the internet, most likely. I'd check the source if I were you.

then again, if it were true, I'd start a chain letter with a text written by me, find some way to track all the forwardee's adresses, and sue them all for copyrights...I'd be rich :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
yeah..not likely to work..I know.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Well there's the Creative Commons License but ... I have no clue how that works.

[Dogmantra]

I once read that posting something on the internet instantly gave you copyright for it.

Copyright is a bit weird and probably getting into legal issues, but it's distinct from first publication rights, which is the big thing here.

[Silviya]

Wow, thanks Silviya. Hmmm... short stories. Yeah, that'll be a hard transition. I'll definitely look at those links. At least I have ~3 more years before I'll even consider trying to publish.

I'm glad that I could be helpful :smallsmile:. On short stories, yeah, it's a hard transition. I think that I finally managed to get the hang of it after about a year, though I probably could have way sooner if I had started reading short story anthologies sooner. Here (http://alpha.spellcaster.org/2011/01/31/i-didnt-have-time-to-write-you-a-short-one/) is yet another blog post link, this time about how to keep short stories actually short, which is something that novelers tend to have a lot of difficulty with when first starting to write short stories (I know that I did).

[Jimorian]

Online, there is more nonsense about copyright than just about any other subject. To avoid the prohibition on legal advice, I'll simply point folks to the U.S. Copyright Office FAQ (http://copyright.gov/help/faq/).

Seriously read it if you are at all interested in any kind of creative endeavor where you want to make sure your rights are protected.

[danzibr]

I'm glad that I could be helpful :smallsmile:. On short stories, yeah, it's a hard transition. I think that I finally managed to get the hang of it after about a year, though I probably could have way sooner if I had started reading short story anthologies sooner. Here (http://alpha.spellcaster.org/2011/01/31/i-didnt-have-time-to-write-you-a-short-one/) is yet another blog post link, this time about how to keep short stories actually short, which is something that novelers tend to have a lot of difficulty with when first starting to write short stories (I know that I did).
Hmmm... I just got a great idea. I have several novel ideas. And by ideas I mean... basically planned out. I could maybe try to publish some of the lesser ones first. Then again, these will probably be in the 100k range, waaaaaaaaaay off from actual short stories, just also not near my first.

[Tyndmyr]

I once read that posting something on the internet instantly gave you copyright for it.

This is not legal advice...but no it does not. Copyright is not really that simple, and the internet has no magical in like that. Ignore all non-lawyer "get a copyright without paying the fee" ideas. If it's something you care about enough to want a copyright on, go to the US copyright office's web page, read the rules regarding what it is you want copyrighted/patented/trademarked, and go through the appropriate process outlined there. If you need assistance with this process, seek out a lawyer specializing in patent law.

Yes, it costs money. But seriously, if you can't afford the few bucks for an application fee, you probably can't afford to file suit on violators either, so what's the diff? If its something that really matters, do the research and do it right.

[Maxios]

This is not legal advice...but no it does not. Copyright is not really that simple, and the internet has no magical in like that. Ignore all non-lawyer "get a copyright without paying the fee" ideas. If it's something you care about enough to want a copyright on, go to the US copyright office's web page, read the rules regarding what it is you want copyrighted/patented/trademarked, and go through the appropriate process outlined there. If you need assistance with this process, seek out a lawyer specializing in patent law.

Yes, it costs money. But seriously, if you can't afford the few bucks for an application fee, you probably can't afford to file suit on violators either, so what's the diff? If its something that really matters, do the research and do it right.

I have no money.

[Tyndmyr]

I have no money.

Well, a good read through the rules will help you understand how things work regardless*...and then you can better evaluate what's worth a patent. After all...just because you file the application doesn't mean it's automatically accepted. If money is tight, you want to be rather careful about it.

Note also that you don't necessarily need to copyright everything. Publishers are not terribly likely to steal your work. The biggest obstacle is not people wanting your work enough to steal it...but your work not standing out enough for people to want it.

*Not intended to be condescending...it's a seriously complicated area of law. I have a good non-lawyer working knowledge of it, but it's some fairly heavy stuff.

[Maxios]

Well, a good read through the rules will help you understand how things work regardless*...and then you can better evaluate what's worth a patent. After all...just because you file the application doesn't mean it's automatically accepted. If money is tight, you want to be rather careful about it.

Note also that you don't necessarily need to copyright everything. Publishers are not terribly likely to steal your work. The biggest obstacle is not people wanting your work enough to steal it...but your work not standing out enough for people to want it.

*Not intended to be condescending...it's a seriously complicated area of law. I have a good non-lawyer working knowledge of it, but it's some fairly heavy stuff.

Trust me, I've had some of my work stolen, and I have no intention of having it stolen again.

Also, I took down the excerpt.

[Jimorian]

Trust me, I've had some of my work stolen, and I have no intention of having it stolen again.

Also, I took down the excerpt.

Did you read the FAQ I posted? It really does have the answers to everything you're asking in here.

[Fri]

I found something that might interest you guys

http://www.tor.com/page/submissions-guidelines

[Lither]

Trust me, I've had some of my work stolen, and I have no intention of having it stolen again.

Also, I took down the excerpt.

Become an Australian citizen. Copyright in Aus is automatic when you create something and requires no forms :smalltongue:.

[Cristo Meyers]

Become an Australian citizen. Copyright in Aus is automatic when you create something and requires no forms :smalltongue:.

That's pretty much how it is here in the U.S. too.



When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

It's just that registering your copyright makes a number of things a lot easier: namely going after folks that infringe on your copyright.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Hey, I'm published too :tongue:

Just not sure if credit on a paper about Z-LEHD inhibition of Caspase-9 in the apoptosis pathway counts for the purpose of this thread...

[Silviya]

Hmmm... I just got a great idea. I have several novel ideas. And by ideas I mean... basically planned out. I could maybe try to publish some of the lesser ones first. Then again, these will probably be in the 100k range, waaaaaaaaaay off from actual short stories, just also not near my first.

That seems like a good course of action. 100k is right about the average length for an adult novel, and a little on the upper end of YA, so it works with whicher it ends up being. And 100k is much easier to publish than 330k, for one's first novel.

[dehro]

not a legal advice, but...


I have no money.


Trust me, I've had some of my work stolen, and I have no intention of having it stolen again.

...then don't publish. not on the internet nor anywhere else, unless you have an agent or publish through a publishing house or other similar organisation.
it's like standing next to a target on a shooting range and then complain if they shoot at you.
you either have the money for a ironman armor/suit, or you move away from the target when people start shooting.
protection of intellectual property, costs money. I assume you can assert your intellectual property for free or a small fee... but that's only the first step. it's when your rights are violated that it becomes expensive..and some people do make calculated guesses about whether you have the resources to defend your rights in court.
as for what is free.. you're freee to read all you can about the subject, making sure that what you read is a proper source of legal info, relevant to your situation.
if you're good enough for people to steal your stuff and sell (actually making money from) it, then you should have no problem finding an agent. anything less than that is simply people using old jokes and other people's aphorisms. if you don't want that to happen you need to keep them to yourself. anything anyone posts on the net can and will be stolen.

[dehro]

not a legal advice, but...


I have no money.


Trust me, I've had some of my work stolen, and I have no intention of having it stolen again.

...then don't publish. not on the internet nor anywhere else, unless you have an agent or publish through a publishing house or other similar organisation.
it's like standing next to a target on a shooting range and then complain if they shoot at you.
you either have the money for a ironman armor/suit, or you move away from the target when people start shooting.
protection of intellectual property, costs money. I assume you can assert your intellectual property for free or a small fee... but that's only the first step. it's when your rights are violated that it becomes expensive..and some people do make calculated guesses about whether you have the resources to defend your rights in court.
as for what is free.. you're freee to read all you can about the subject, making sure that what you read is a proper source of legal info, relevant to your situation.
if you're good enough for people to steal your stuff and sell (actually making money from) it, then you should have no problem finding an agent. anything less than that is simply people using old jokes and other people's aphorisms. if you don't want that to happen you need to keep them to yourself. anything anyone posts on the net can and will be stolen.

[banjo1985]

Short stories are a great way to start out, less work in general, and less of a bummer if they get rejected. Publishing credits count when going to agents and/or publishers, paid ones more so, but everyone has to start somewhere. Then, once you think your novels are ready to go, you can approach an agent with a modest but existing stream of publishing credits so they know that your work is at least credible to someone other than yourself. It won't make the publishers take much notice if the novels aren;t great, but it makes it a fair bit more likely that they'll give your manuscripts the time of day in the first place.

I've just got my first short story accepted for publishing, and while it's hardly Barnes & Nobles book of the week territory, it is at least a start. It's easier to make the big leaop into novel territory after making a few small steps first.

330k is a LOT of words, ad many others have said, but it won't neccessarily stop it from being published. What will do is if those words aren't meaningful; if you've got 330k words of pure gold then great, but at that length you need to be sure you've cut everything you cab abre to part with, and possibly a little more than that.

Good luck! :smallsmile:

[Tyndmyr]

if you're good enough for people to steal your stuff and sell (actually making money from) it, then you should have no problem finding an agent. anything less than that is simply people using old jokes and other people's aphorisms. if you don't want that to happen you need to keep them to yourself. anything anyone posts on the net can and will be stolen.

Yup. Having legal standing to do something you can't afford to do is...ultimately not very helpful. It's like having the freedom to give away a million dollars. Nice in theory, but if I don't actually have a million dollars, I'm not going to worry overly much about it.

Best to focus on the practical problems. If you can't sell your stuff, worrying about if it gets stolen or not is distinctly secondary. Getting stuff sold is problem #1(ok, well, perhaps #2. Getting it written in the first place is not at all trivial).

The mention of the short story thing is quite good, and the rates at Tor.com seem quite reasonable(25 cents a word for 5000 words is not at all a bad deal). I don't know what the acceptance rate is, but at a minimum, a 5k word piece that won't sell is a much smaller investment than a 50k one.

[The Durvin]

I'm not published, but it's not for lack of trying. I would head over to nathanbransford.com and check out his forums; he's a former literary agent, and the forum is a great, helpful, tight community that gave me some great advice. Well, okay, I never actually got published, but I'm pretty sure it was good advice anyway. I've given up on novels for the time being, since my work is really too weird for prose (their words), so I haven't been on there in a while, but there are two important things that Mr. Bransford told me:
1. Get an agent, and ignore anyone that charges you before you're published. There are lots of resources for people looking for an agent, but almost no publisher is going to take an unpublished, unrepresented author. First they'll want a query letter--go to the forum to see how to write one, since books on the subject usually pre-date the Age of E-Mail--and maybe a sample chapter or two, and then, if and only if you impress the hell out of them, they will request a full copy.
2. Your book is too long. WAAAAAAY too long. Your first novel should be closer to 80,000 words. Regardless of quality, good look finding anybody willing to read a manuscript in the sextuple digits--agents read these one after the other, week after week, and your book would have to be better than sex for it to be worth the time it would take to read something forty times longer than what they look for.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Just a few poems I wrote back in my teens. Nothing major; a couple contest winners made it into a couple books, is all.

My advice? Keep it concise. Think like an editor: out of the ~330K words in your first book, how many are integral to driving the plot? Random filler bores people, and I think it's where a lot of writers go astray: the misconception that more content = more value, and is thus inherently good unless stated otherwise, doesn't jive with most readers. It's the value of the content that drives quantity, not the other way around.