Speculation on Tarquin's ending/fate

[Dante2001]

So, as far as I'm concerned, the OOTS have a lot of possible endings, some of which we already know (Elan gets a happy ending, Durkon gets to come back home after dying)
So... How, why and when do you think Tarquin will end up in the comic?

-He gets killed by
--Elan
--Nale
--Xykon
-He gets to keep his continent?
-He dies saving Elan from some threat? (IE: Xykon)
-He beats the crap out of Xykon, let the OOTS live and rule the whole world? :D

Ideas? Tell the ending you'd expect and the ending you'd want. Might differ or be the same, who knows xD. Frankly I hope an epic battle like

Nale, Elan and Tarquin vs Xykon and RedCloak

[Leecros]

Tarquin is immortal. Even if he does die, his resurrection will be fueled by the combined power of his fandom.

[Vahir]

Tarquin will inevitably be killed by either Nale or Elan (If its Nale, then Elan will proceed to off Nale). However, I fully expect Tarquin to collide with Xykon before that happens, there isn't enough room for two major antagonists in this town.

[Vahir]

Tarquin is immortal. Even if he does die, his resurrection will be fueled by the combined power of his fandom.

And that. (The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.)

[Dr.Epic]

He lives forever, never getting his epic topple that will be written in songs and tales, and spends eternity saddened.

As a great man once said...

http://www.300spartanwarriors.com/images/360_King_Leonidas_-_A_300.jpg

"May you live forever."

[Talvereaux]

I like the idea he's done away with by someone besides Elan or Nale. He wants one of his sons to be the one who kills him, as that's dramatically appropriate, but he doesn't deserve that. He shouldn't be allowed to 'win' by his rules.

Currently, I'm supporting the possibility Xykon does him in. I assume one of the last ways Tarquin would want to die is as fodder for a more prominent villain of more importance to the story. Rather than being the antagonist of an epic where his son musters the strength and resolve to overthrow him, he'll be unceremoniously cast aside just to show the heroes and the audience the power and depravity of a bigger fish. His death won't be the thrilling conclusion of his legend, just a chapter in another villain's.

[Valyrian]

Actually, I expect the Snarl, somehow. Tarquin is all about becoming a legend that everyone remembers. It would be very ironic (in a cruel way) if his very existence would be erased and he'll end up forgotten just like Kraagor.

[Yendor]

Currently, I'm supporting the possibility Xykon does him in. I assume one of the last ways Tarquin would want to die is as fodder for a more prominent villain of more importance to the story. Rather than being the antagonist of an epic where his son musters the strength and resolve to overthrow him, he'll be unceremoniously cast aside just to show the heroes and the audience the power and depravity of a bigger fish. His death won't be the thrilling conclusion of his legend, just a chapter in another villain's.

I'm hoping that Xykon calls him out as a second-rate wannabe. Hiding behind figureheads? From a bunch of losers who can't hold their own thrones for a year? Even Redcloak's not that much of a wimp.

[Grogmir]

I'm hoping that Xykon calls him out as a second-rate wannabe. Hiding behind figureheads? From a bunch of losers who can't hold their own thrones for a year? Even Redcloak's not that much of a wimp.

Funny you should say that. For some reason I think X is going to take down Tarquin in a matter of seconds. Tarquin's will be the quick death in OoTS.

Moments after killing him...
:xykon: Who was that guy?
:redcloak: Some nobody from the desert.

Sure The Giant has more planned than that though.

[Ancalagon]

There is a problem with his current plan anyway:

Right now, no one knows that he really is the Big Bad. If he dies now (like during the Comic's Main Plot)... no one will now who he was, therefore he will not be the legend he wants to be.

Actually, I fail to understand how he could not see that. He first has to be feared and hates for YEARS so the win of someone over him really is considered big and worthy of legends. If he dies now... no one will really care as everyone thinks he's just some general in an Empire that is only one of dozens of Empires that rise and fall constantly in that region.

Even if he makes himself known he needs to build a reputation for at least a few years if not decades for his epic work to work.

His plan is doomed from the start (at least the PR-part is, he DOES get to live like a king for years)... Tarquin has not yet announced himself and he is not getting younger.

[Dr.Epic]

I like the idea he's done away with by someone besides Elan or Nale. He wants one of his sons to be the one who kills him, as that's dramatically appropriate, but he doesn't deserve that. He shouldn't be allowed to 'win' by his rules.

I don't know. Roy is the protagonist of this story. And Roy has served as a sort of mentor to Elan. So Roy could still make it dramatic if he kills him. Thus, it can still dramatic and all regardless of who kills Tarquin.

[Hopeless]

You missed an obvious one, Tarquin is killed saving his son(s) quite possibly sacrificing himself literally to save the continent and is remembered for that rather than as the legendary figure he describes to Elan.

After all this person sees things in terms of drama and tropes and who hasn't heard of Darth Vader or the noble foe?

We have already seen with Azure City what happens when a Gate is blown up, now what if this time Tarquin has to do the same to prevent the release of the Snarl which is really to save his sons but as far as anyone else is concerned he actually saves the people of the continent and is recognised for "that" it would be quite ironic wouldn't it?

[Bulldog Psion]

Actually, I fail to understand how he could not see that. He first has to be feared and hates for YEARS so the win of someone over him really is considered big and worthy of legends. If he dies now... no one will really care as everyone thinks he's just some general in an Empire that is only one of dozens of Empires that rise and fall constantly in that region.

Even if he makes himself known he needs to build a reputation for at least a few years if not decades for his epic work to work.

His plan is doomed from the start (at least the PR-part is, he DOES get to live like a king for years)... Tarquin has not yet announced himself and he is not getting younger.

Yes, you're perfectly right. Tarquin's plan, as described, is unworkable. He can't be the secretive puppetmaster and the eternally famous evil overlord at the same time. In fact, he's probably blown it already, because if he doesn't reveal himself he'll die basically unknown, and if he does reveal himself, that will definitely put a major crimp in his manipulations.

Maybe that's why the gates are so interesting to him -- it's the chance to be the world-trampling tyrant that his own plans deny him.

[Jaros]

I assumed Tarquin's plan included a "This man (and his friends) has (or have) been subjugating the continent for years/decades!" revelation.

[Aldrakan]

I'm guessing Xykon. The mistake Tarquin's made in dealing with the OotS is that he assumed it was being led by Elan, for no real reason other than because he's his son.
As the father of the group's leader he's the obvious main bad guy, and whoever they're fighting now can't possibly be as important and is sure to get killed out of the way before he and Elan have their climactic battle.
So he's going to walk into this basically thinking that genre conventions preserve him until after Xykon is gone, not realizing that he's actually a lesser enemy making an opportunistic grab at usurping big bad status. And that rarely goes well, especially if you're the sort of bad guy who works by manipulating people a lot.
It takes his genre savviness and and turns it against him due to his arrogance.

[TinyMushroom]

Yes, you're perfectly right. Tarquin's plan, as described, is unworkable. He can't be the secretive puppetmaster and the eternally famous evil overlord at the same time. In fact, he's probably blown it already, because if he doesn't reveal himself he'll die basically unknown, and if he does reveal himself, that will definitely put a major crimp in his manipulations.

Maybe that's why the gates are so interesting to him -- it's the chance to be the world-trampling tyrant that his own plans deny him.

I thought being revealed as the puppetmaster (if Elan wins) was the whole point of his plan. You are right, he can't be both at the same time. But he said it himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) - his plan is either just remaining the manipulator, or being revealed and becoming a legend.

[Arrghus]

I actually think there's a pretty decent chance the Empress'll be the one who does him in. Two reasons:

1. Immediately following Tarquin's massive motive monologue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) (a speech that can basically be boiled down to the oxymoronic "I'm so genre-savvy I'm invincible") she's got a minor cameo in the background. And if she is the one who kills him, then that little cameo suddenly becomes hilarious.

2. The captive monster doing in their master is a classic trope, and though Tarquin's only captured the Empress with lies and trickery, it still sort of applies. To further this part of the point, there is Tarquin's little obesity gag, which while it doesn't improve the Empress's spellcasting or anything does help her should she simply decide to eat the little bugger.

[Bulldog Psion]

Death by Empress is an intriguing theory. :smallsmile:

Death by Xykon is still marginally more likely in my opinion, though.

[Zevox]

There is a problem with his current plan anyway:

Right now, no one knows that he really is the Big Bad. If he dies now (like during the Comic's Main Plot)... no one will now who he was, therefore he will not be the legend he wants to be.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that becoming a legend is Tarquin's main plan. How does eveyone keep missing that it's just a bonus he figures he'll get now that Elan has shown back up as a hero?

Tarquin's main goal has already been accomplished: he's gotten to live a life of luxury as the ruler of nations for decades. Everything else, from further expansion of his empires to becoming a legend, is just icing on the cake for him. This is what he told us back during his conversation with Elan on the matter, yet somehow people keep mistaking the extras for being his main goal, and I really don't know why that is.

Zevox

[Ancalagon]

Let's not argue what is his main goal and what not. It seems he's serious to Elan about "his End and his Legacy".

No matter if that is 10% or 50% or 90% of his plan: It is important to him and it is doomed from the very start as he was too successful in making it seem he's just some general before the background of ever-changing empires.

[Zevox]

Let's not argue what is his main goal and what not. It seems he's serious to Elan about "his End and his Legacy".

No matter if that is 10% or 50% or 90% of his plan: It is important to him and it is doomed from the very start as he was too successful in making it seem he's just some general before the background of ever-changing empires.
Yeah, that's the thing: it's not. It's a bonus he figures he'll get now that Elan has shown up, nothing more. That was my point. Given what he told Elan before, he's not going to be particularly bothered no matter how he meets his end now - he got what he really wanted already, and accepts that it's going to come to an end at some point, likely violently so. What's important to him is that he got to live like a King for so long; all the rest is just a bonus.

Zevox

[SoC175]

Funny you should say that. For some reason I think X is going to take down Tarquin in a matter of seconds. Tarquin's will be the quick death in OoTS.

Moments after killing him...
:xykon: Who was that guy?
:redcloak: Some nobody from the desert.That's how I imagine it, just right after Tarquin make a speech that he was sure did convince Xykon to side with him.

:xykon: Sorry, too long didn' listen. *deathspell*

[Ancalagon]

Yeah, that's the thing: it's not.

I doubt that. Why does he give the speech as he did to Elan, then? It would have only been to be cruel, but given how he seems to think of his sons, cruelty here for the pure and only sake of cruelty makes no sense.

His speech must contain at least a grain of truth, where we again are at "10% or more". Even if it's lower, it still makes no sense. But your claim it's 0% does not work out (for me) given what we have seen from Tarquin.

[Kish]

Yeah, that's the thing: it's not. It's a bonus he figures he'll get now that Elan has shown up, nothing more. That was my point. Given what he told Elan before, he's not going to be particularly bothered no matter how he meets his end now - he got what he really wanted already, and accepts that it's going to come to an end at some point, likely violently so. What's important to him is that he got to live like a King for so long; all the rest is just a bonus.

Zevox


I doubt that. Why does he give the speech as he did to Elan, then? It would have only been to be cruel, but given how he seems to think of his sons, cruelty here for the pure and only sake of cruelty makes no sense.

His speech must contain at least a grain of truth, where we again are at "10% or more". Even if it's lower, it still makes no sense. But your claim it's 0% does not work out (for me) given what we have seen from Tarquin.
Whereas I'm inclined to disagree with both of you because of thinking his speech--all of it--contains 0% truth. He may believe that it does--he probably does believe that it does--but I don't believe he'd take it philosophically if Elan defeated him and he certainly wouldn't take it philosophically if someone else defeated him.

[Ancalagon]

I'm not sure if your theory holds. It's a very good thought for a "adult Tarquin" but for an "Old Tarquin who knows he has to die someday" and who knows that day is much closer now than it was 20 years ago it surely is a better thought "to live like a king and become legend after death" than "to live like a king and be forgotten".

Tarquin isn't as self-centered as Nale in regard to what he wants how people perceive him but he does like drama and story. Why should he leave with no one knowing him when he can leave as legend? That part of his story seems to make perfect sense and as thus, I still think his speech to Elan contains more truth than 0%.

He would not have given it at all in this way. He could have made a big speech about "living as king, and the last ten minutes of suck are worth it". Why all the "epic story" stuff around and following that? It's really not necessary for Tarquin to bloat his story - unless he meant that part. And look at his grin when Elan runs away. He thinks he has "won" again. Why would he think he wins about something he does not care about at all?

I'm not getting why you say "He believes in it, but it is not his truth". Isn't that some sort of contradiction in itself? Tarquin either believes this is his plan, then the speech contains truth - or he does not.

[Kish]

I think Tarquin may well believe, when he tells Elan as much, that if he was dying--at the hands of Elan, some random peasant hero, or Xykon--then he would reflect on the fact that he got to live like a king for however long he got to live like a king, and experience no reaction worse than "oh well."

I think when/if Tarquin is actually dying, his actual reaction will be, "Rargh, no!" even if Elan kills him and doesn't indicate some plan to thwart Tarquin's desire to be a legend, and much worse if Tarquin's death is anything other than the ideal situation he describes.

[Ancalagon]

I agree he might not ponder this in the "last ten minutes" when he does not have time for such philosophical thoughts and would rather go on living for another 5 or 15 years as king.

But that's no problem for his general thought on how he'd like to go out. And I think we can also agree he wants to meet that end rather later than sooner. But that again does not touch the fact he meant what he said when he said that.

And based on that this plan (no matter what his mind might be filled in the moment of death or during the fight before that) is flawed from the start.

[Zevox]

I doubt that. Why does he give the speech as he did to Elan, then? It would have only been to be cruel, but given how he seems to think of his sons, cruelty here for the pure and only sake of cruelty makes no sense.

His speech must contain at least a grain of truth, where we again are at "10% or more". Even if it's lower, it still makes no sense. But your claim it's 0% does not work out (for me) given what we have seen from Tarquin.
I have no idea where you're getting the notion that he was lying to Elan, or even more confusingly "being cruel for the sake of being cruel," if becoming a legend isn't important to him. Because as I said, that's what he told Elan to begin with. The way he framed the whole thing, becoming a legend was just a bonus he now figures he can look forward to, and that's it. Just because he's looking forward to it doesn't mean it's all that important to him if it doesn't happen.

Zevox

[Ancalagon]

I have no idea where you're getting the notion that he was lying to Elan, or even more confusingly "being cruel for the sake of being cruel,"

Me neither. Luckily, I never said what you think I said: I claimed from the start I think he said the truth there. It's Kish who thinks he lied.

I say he'll never get the bonus because he made an oversight in that plan: He is not known and therefore, no one will connect his fall with any sort of legend or epic tale. And I find that odd that someone as Tarquin misses such a glaring problem. No matter if that is an "integeral part of his life" (90%) or "just a bonus" (10%).

[Jaros]

Kish isn't saying he lied, or that it isn't his truth. I believe he was saying that it wasn't the truth. I don't like, as someone on these boards put it, 'arguing by proxy' but I believe he meant as in he may say/think he'd be fine with Elan or someone defeating him, but his reaction were it to actually happen would be rather different.

[Zevox]

Me neither. Luckily, I never said what you think I said: I claimed from the start I think he said the truth there. It's Kish who thinks he lied.
You said "his speech must contain a grain of truth," implying that you thought I was claiming that it didn't, and ergo that I was saying that he was lying.

Zevox

[Kish]

Kish isn't saying he lied, or that it isn't his truth. I believe he was saying that it wasn't the truth. I don't like, as someone on these boards put it, 'arguing by proxy' but I believe he meant as in he may say/think he'd be fine with Elan or someone defeating him, but his reaction were it to actually happen would be rather different.
I think I was the one who used that phrase, actually. :smalltongue:

And yes, you're right about what I'm saying. Tarquin's ego demands that he phrase everything in terms of, "Heads, I win, tails, I win" (remember his reaction when the bounty hunters escaped from the arena?). It demands that without reference to how he will actually react when/if the coin comes up heads or how much effort he is liable to put into making sure it comes up tails or never lands at all.

[Ancalagon]

You said "his speech must contain a grain of truth," implying that you thought I was claiming that it didn't, and ergo that I was saying that he was lying.Zevox

I was trying to convince Kish that Tarquin lying there does not make sense, imo.

I might be inclinde to agree with Kish on this heads-tails-formulation. But if Tarquin had to decide his end, he clearly would go for the "most epic" one - and what he told Elan is more epic than "Silent Heartstroke".
The issue just is: He could have had the heads-tail-win without the public "legend" fluff, he could have said "I already won, no matter if you defeat me in the end". Why include the public epic tale at all when talking to Elan?

It's not necessary and Tarquin is someone who doesn't do stuff that's not necessary thus I must assume it's actually somewhat true from his perspective.

[Kish]

I was trying to convince Kish that Tarquin lying there does not make sense, imo.

I might be inclinde to agree with Kish on this heads-tails-formulation. But if Tarquin had to decide his end, he clearly would go for the "most epic" one - and what he told Elan is more epic than "Silent Heartstroke".
The issue just is: He could have had the heads-tail-win without the public "legend" fluff, he could have said "I already won, no matter if you defeat me in the end". Why include the public epic tale at all when talking to Elan?

Well, it served its purpose, didn't it? It took Elan from "You need to be removed now!" to, "Gaah, if I remove you I'll make you a legend!"

It's not, in my opinion, a particularly convincing argument. Any member of the Order except Elan could drive a truck through the "only if the story of your scheme and how long it worked becomes widely known" loophole. But that may well matter for Tarquin's eventual demise but didn't matter for the duration of that one strip: it worked on Elan.

Mind you, I believe Tarquin believed it at the time he said it (hhttp://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/draft/Balseraphs.html).

[Zevox]

I was trying to convince Kish that Tarquin lying there does not make sense, imo.
Kish hadn't posted yet when you made the statement I was quoting.

Zevox

[Fish]

My vote: backstabbing by Ian Starshine. Haley's dad kills Elan's; Tarquin is killed by some unknown old man and career prisoner. Drama ensues between H & E.

[Kish]

Drama ensues between H & E.
:smallconfused: Why would it? Elan knows his father needs killin'.

[Dark Matter]

Tarquin's main goal has already been accomplished: he's gotten to live a life of luxury as the ruler of nations for decades. Everything else, from further expansion of his empires to becoming a legend, is just icing on the cake for him.Agreed.


It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that becoming a legend is Tarquin's main plan. How does eveyone keep missing that it's just a bonus he figures he'll get now that Elan has shown back up as a hero?I think he's just manipulating Elan.

"Defeat me and I'll become more powerful than you can possibly understand!"

...(subconscious whisper: So joining me would be the least of all evil possibilities, you might even be able to turn me to the light side, and in the meantime you'd be doing good... eventually you'll take my place, and you can turn the empire to good).

[Boogastreehouse]

I'm still contemplating the possibility that Elan helps to redeem his father, thus adding more happy to his (Elan's) happy ending. Tarquin probably won't adopt Roy, though...

[Holy_Knight]

I assumed Tarquin's plan included a "This man (and his friends) has (or have) been subjugating the continent for years/decades!" revelation.
This is what I was leaning towards, too. Tarquin probably assumes that any kind of dramatic showdown (or at least, one with any chance of succeeding) would come on the heels of his system being exposed.

[Zevox]

I'm still contemplating the possibility that Elan helps to redeem his father, thus adding more happy to his (Elan's) happy ending. Tarquin probably won't adopt Roy, though...
I could see Elan trying to do that. Succeeding, on the other hand...

Zevox

[Procyonpi]

Yo forgot the most obvious fate: remarrying Elans mom, settling down, and adopting Roy! :P

[Tobrian]

-He beats the crap out of Xykon, let the OOTS live and rule the whole world? :D


Well, not the whole world, because that causes too much of a hassle (and paperwork). In Tarquin's eyes only morons like Nale and Xykon stand atop a mountain of skulls and yell "I want to rule the whole world!" without formulating any plans beyond that. Tarquin has found the perfect balance of power, why should he change his winning formula?

I fully expect Tarquin to help the OotS to beat Nale, Redcloak and Xykon, for the same reason why the vampire Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer helped Buffy against Angelus when Angelus tried to open a portal to Hell to destroy the world... because Spike, as he himself said, liked the world, and he was smart enough to recognize that letting an insane villain destroy the world will ruin your day even if you are evil yourself.

Tarquin is too genre-savvy to fall into the cardboard villain trap. And he is smart enough to know that dimensional rifts and a god-eating creature from beyond the universe are bad news, and trying to twiddle around with them is a horribly stupid idea... like most of Nale's ideas.

Xykon figures himself an unconquerable villain because he has lots of power, and claims that against ultimate power no plan can prevail. I hope Tarquin will prove him wrong. Tarquin will never let a two-bit chaotic idiot rule the world if he has any say about it.

The only thing that worries me is that so far, the OotS, Nale, and Tarquin believe that Redcloak and Xykon want to control the Snarl. Even Xykon thinks there's a way to control the Snarl. Only Redcloak knows that the Snarl cannot be controlled, neither by mere mortals or by gods, and that destroying the last seal will result in the unmaking of both Redcloak and Xykon. But then Redcloak is a religious fanatic. That's the vital piece of information that Tarquin, Nale, and the OotS are all missing, and it worries me.

But I firmly believe that the reason Tarquin was introduced to the storyline in such detail and as a recurring character is to give the OotS an unlikely but powerful ally who can contribute skills and attributes they themselves lack: Vast resources and -even more importantly- a talent for thinking ahead, for formulating long-term plans and planning for every contingency. Tarquin can outsmart Xykon.

So far all the OotS (and other characters like Miko) have done is acting like a typical band of heroes: Blundering into a villain's lair, reacting to what the villains are doing (thus always being one step behind them), spontaneously trying to beat Xykon in one-on-one combat (Roy and V especially) and getting their asses handed to them as the result.

The only smart thing Roy did was visiting the Oracle to figure out which one of the remaining Gates the Team Evil would go to next, to be there before them. But it backfired due to Roy not being about to count to three. One... two... THREE! Three Gates! Mwahahaha! :smallwink:


I'm still contemplating the possibility that Elan helps to redeem his father, thus adding more happy to his (Elan's) happy ending. Tarquin probably won't adopt Roy, though...

Redemption always ends with the former villain dying heroically. It's a narrative law. Tarquin has already told Elan that he doesn't facy changing sides if all he gets out of it is a case of inconvenient morals and karmic death.

[Gift Jeraff]

I used to be a fan of Nale killing Tarquin, but since it's starting to seem that Tarquin loves both of his sons equally, I think he'd be proud if Nale killed him.

So now I'm leaning towards Xykon casually murdering him, making him realize how insignificant he was in the long-run, and then Nale is cradling his dying father while swearing revenge on Xykon...because he wanted to be the one who killed him.

[t209]

About V coming out of the Plane and fry Tarquin into ashes.