Buffing AC

[missmvicious]

A question came up on a previous thread about AC, and it got me thinking about an idea I had a while back and never put to use, and I want to understand why this can't work.

+5 MW Explorer's Outfit with +5 MW Plate Mail.

Here's what's confusing me: PHB pg. 305

armor bonus: A bonus to Armor Class granted by armor or by a
spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with
all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses)
except other armor bonuses.

Clothing is counted as Clothing, not Armor, (even though it has an AC of 0) and it's in its own chart in the PHB. But anything that can be made can be made MW, right? And if it's masterwork, it can be enchanted.

So... you can have +5 MW Explorer's Outfit and +5 MW Plate Mail (+7) for a grand total of +17 to AC, right?

Everyone keeps telling me I'm wrong, because armor bonuses don't stack. But clothing isn't armor; is it? Does it become armor once you enchant it with a +5 bonus? But then what about boots, hats, bracelets, necklaces, and etc. They don't become armor once they're enchanted.

I'm so confused. Please, somebody make this make sense to me.

[Quietus]

It's in the naming of the bonuses. In this case, because it's a magical bonus, it affects the base AC. Note that technically speaking, clothing/robes aren't considered armor and thus aren't an option for an armor bonus. But for the sake of argument, let's say they were.

So we have :

Full Plate +5 = 13 AC
Clothing +5 = 5 AC

Both of these are "Armor bonus to AC", regardless of the fact that one of them is on clothing. You only get one Armor bonus to your AC, which is the highest one. So your full plate would apply, because it's larger, making the +5 clothing pointless.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

clothing is TECHNICALLY armor. In that, if you wear two sets of armor, only the one with the most AC counts. so, be enchanting your clothing with an ARMOR bonus, you are forcing it to act as a second, less effective source of armor. Since the plate mail has a higher AC, it is the only source of AC counted. (as far as armor goes). So basically, regardless of whether it is clothing or not, your MW explorer's outfit is being enchanted as per enchanting armor rules. Thus, once enchanted, it does indeed count as armor.

eh. ninja'd. :/

[missmvicious]

So... how do you stack AC then? The PHB implies that you can have AC bonuses that stack.

Is it just Natural Armor, Armor and Shield? I'm pretty sure there are magic items that buff AC too, or at least give circumstance bonuses, like the Brooch of Avoidance.

It's the Magic Item Compendium that got me thinking that this was possible in the first place. It has a whole section on magical clothing.

What determines the naming of the bonus, then? For clothing, does the bonus have to be circumstantial in order to stack?

[candycorn]

"Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses."

Other meaning, all bonuses that are not armor bonuses.

Bonuses state when they can stack with other bonuses of the same type. For example, Dodge bonuses stack with each other, generally.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

armor, shield, natural armor, luck, inherent, etc. plus a flat miss chance is even more effective.

[TuggyNE]

You can get, e.g., deflection bonuses to AC, or sacred/profane, or luck, or dodge, or even insight. There's a fair number of different bonus types that can be applied to AC (and that was not a complete list).

[sonofzeal]

The common types are Armor, Shield, Deflection, Size, Natural Armor, Dodge, and Luck. Of those, only Dodge stacks with itself.

[MukkTB]

I always thought enhancement was a bonus to the armor. So you could get full benefit from a +x shield and +x armor.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I always thought enhancement was a bonus to the armor. So you could get full benefit from a +x shield and +x armor.

thats right. thats why the magical armor table has "+x armor/shield". both can be enhanced, and used as a full bonus. clothing and armor (both counting as armor, not one a shield and the other armor for example, do not.)

[Curmudgeon]

I always thought enhancement was a bonus to the armor. So you could get full benefit from a +x shield and +x armor.
From Rules Compendium on page 15:
Enhancement Bonuses
An enhancement bonus makes an armor bonus, natural armor bonus, or a shield bonus better. The enhancement bonus stacks as if it were part of the bonus to which it applies—armor, natural armor, or shield—so it’s not included in the AC formula above. You can enhance those three different bonuses and they'll all stack.

[candycorn]

Correct.

So, a +5 Chain shirt provides a +9 Armor Bonus to AC.
A +5 Shirt provides a +5 Armor Bonus to AC.
Bracers of Armor +8 provide a +8 Armor Bonus to AC.

None of these bonuses stack with each other, but they each can stack with any bonus that isn't an Armor Bonus.

[Little Brother]

And this is why Chahar-Aina are pro.

[Person_Man]

I'm so confused. Please, somebody make this make sense to me.

+1 on what candycorn and Curmudgeon posted.

If you're just looking for good AC, take a look at:

Normal Armor (or +1 armor with enchantments you otherwise find useful)
+1 Animated Shield
Magic Vestment cast on your armor
Magic Vestment cast on your shield
Gauntlets with the enchantment Defending
Greater Magic Weapon cast on your Gauntlets
Alter Self (into something with a high Natural Armor bonus)
X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) bonuses to AC (or just having high Dex)


If you're not a caster and you're unwilling to buy the appropriate wands (you don't need UMD, you can just hand it to the caster in your party before tough combats and ask him to activate it on you) or invest in the appropriate X to Y feats, you should look into Miss Chance and battlefield control. They're generally more effective then high AC.

Oh, and as a totally off topic side note, I personally find your posts very hard to read, due to the odd color, font, and spacing. I often skip over your posts because they hurt my eyes. But I'm an old man (33) with cruddy eyesight, so it's probably just me. No offense is intended.

[Douglas]

Oh, and as a totally off topic side note, I personally find your posts very hard to read, due to the odd color, font, and spacing. I often skip over your posts because they hurt my eyes. But I'm an old man (33) with cruddy eyesight, so it's probably just me. No offense is intended.
I don't find the unusual formatting hard to read, but I do find it annoying. The defaults are what they are for a reason.

[Acanous]

Let's see here;
Possible bonuses to your AC are:
Armor, Shield, Dexterity, Size, Deflection, Insight, Perfection, Sacred/Profane, Luck, Morale, Natural armor, Alchemical, Dodge, Cover, and circumstancial.

Alchemical and Dodge are outside the realm of what magic items can do, although, of course, Alchemical items provide an alchemical bonus.

Morale, Circumstancial and Dodge self-stack. If you have more than one bonus of these types to AC, they all apply.

Cover is a little odd and has it's own set of rules, check consealment. Magic items can grant you cover, including if you have a pair of animated tower shields (One for cover, one for AC bonus) so I kept it up there.

The highest AC I have ever seen was a lv 12 Rogue/Swashbuckler/Duellist who had something silly like 72 AC.

[Tyndmyr]

+1 on what candycorn and Curmudgeon posted.

If you're just looking for good AC, take a look at:

Normal Armor (or +1 armor with enchantments you otherwise find useful)
+1 Animated Shield
Magic Vestment cast on your armor
Magic Vestment cast on your shield
Gauntlets with the enchantment Defending
Greater Magic Weapon cast on your Gauntlets
Alter Self (into something with a high Natural Armor bonus)
X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) bonuses to AC (or just having high Dex)


If you're not a caster and you're unwilling to buy the appropriate wands (you don't need UMD, you can just hand it to the caster in your party before tough combats and ask him to activate it on you) or invest in the appropriate X to Y feats, you should look into Miss Chance and battlefield control. They're generally more effective then high AC.

Also, a Dastana(arms and equipment, I believe). They are an armor bonus, but include language saying they explicitly stack with other armor bonuses. So, grab one of those and enchant it up.


Oh, and as a totally off topic side note, I personally find your posts very hard to read, due to the odd color, font, and spacing. I often skip over your posts because they hurt my eyes. But I'm an old man (33) with cruddy eyesight, so it's probably just me. No offense is intended.

Yeah, I'm afraid I've pretty much done that till now as well. IMO, the color isn't so bad as the rest of it. The size/font makes them really awkward to read.

[missmvicious]

So the devil's in the syntax, then.

I can have:

Cloak of Thorns (Shoulder) +2 to Natural AC
Impervious Vestment (Torso) +5 to Armor AC
Ring of Avoidance (Ring) +20 Deflection AC
Vambraces of Warding (Arms) +2 Sacred AC
Shield of Mercy (Held) +1 Shield AC


and it could all stack to make one massive +30 to AC (not counting any inherent AC bonuses from DEX, etc.

But if I added anything else that gave +5 to Natural AC, I would lose the bonus from my Cloak of Thorns, and likewise for Armor, Deflection, Sacred, or Shield respectively.

So, If I hypothetically had an outfit (Explorer's Outfit in this case) that was enchanted with a +5 Natural Bonus under Full Plate with a +5 Armor Bonus... those would stack (please take "hypothetically" literally here. I don't even know if such a thing is possible; I'm just trying to understand AC rules better.)?

[missmvicious]

Also, a Dastana(arms and equipment, I believe). They are an armor bonus, but include language saying they explicitly stack with other armor bonuses. So, grab one of those and enchant it up.



Yeah, I'm afraid I've pretty much done that till now as well. IMO, the color isn't so bad as the rest of it. The size/font makes them really awkward to read.

Due to that being the third person on this board who brought this up, I suppose I'll change it. I'd like to at least keep the color though, since it matches my Avi. Believe it or not, this is my "getting along with the board" color/size/font combo. In the other message boards in the past, I used to post in Hot Pink and Acid Green until I started giving posters aneurisms. My hubby says my taste in colors is a bit unusual. I guess I just like things that burn the eyes.

[Tyndmyr]

So, If I hypothetically had an outfit (Explorer's Outfit in this case) that was enchanted with a +5 Natural Bonus under Full Plate with a +5 Armor Bonus... those would stack (please take "hypothetically" literally here. I don't even know if such a thing is possible; I'm just trying to understand AC rules better.)?[/COLOR]

Such a thing is only possible under a *very* permissive DM who really lets you get carried away with custom item crafting...but yes, a natural armor bonus item will stack with full plate.


Yeah...hot pink/acid green is a very, very bad color combination. You want the background and text colors to have high contrast for readability. Remember those old terrible angelfire and geocities webpages with bright blue text on bright red pages and the like? Those are an exercise in eye strain, and are best avoided. Purple/white doesn't have as much contrast as black/white, but it's at least readable.

[Douglas]

So the devil's in the syntax, then.

I can have:

Cloak of Thorns (Shoulder) +2 to Natural AC
Impervious Vestment (Torso) +5 to Armor AC
Ring of Avoidance (Ring) +20 Deflection AC
Vambraces of Warding (Arms) +2 Sacred AC
Shield of Mercy (Held) +1 Shield AC


and it could all stack to make one massive +30 to AC (not counting any inherent AC bonuses from DEX, etc.

But if I added anything else that gave +5 to Natural AC, I would lose the bonus from my Cloak of Thorns, and likewise for Armor, Deflection, Sacred, or Shield respectively.

So, If I hypothetically had an outfit (Explorer's Outfit in this case) that was enchanted with a +5 Natural Bonus under Full Plate with a +5 Armor Bonus... those would stack (please take "hypothetically" literally here. I don't even know if such a thing is possible; I'm just trying to understand AC rules better.)?
Yes, that's all correct. The standard item for natural armor is an amulet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofNaturalArmor), though, not clothing.


Due to that being the third person on this board who brought this up, I suppose I'll change it. I'd like to at least keep the color though, since it matches my Avi. Believe it or not, this is my "getting along with the board" color/size/font combo. In the other message boards in the past, I used to post in Hot Pink and Acid Green until I started giving posters aneurisms. My hubby says my taste in colors is a bit unusual. I guess I just like things that burn the eyes.
Thank you, that's much better. I'd still prefer plain black, but purple isn't bad.

Hot pink and acid green, though...:smallyuk: I'm fairly sure if you did that on this board you'd get an official warning from a moderator asking you to stop.

[missmvicious]

I've got it now, thanks everyone! :smallbiggrin:

[missmvicious]

Thank you, that's much better. I'd still prefer plain black, but purple isn't bad.

Hot pink and acid green, though...:smallyuk: I'm fairly sure if you did that on this board you'd get an official warning from a moderator asking you to stop.

Oh, and you're welcome. I'm sorry if I gave eye-strain headaches. Bright colors and stuff like that don't bother me, so I sometimes forget that it may bother others. :smallredface:

[Little Brother]

Also, a Dastana(arms and equipment, I believe). They are an armor bonus, but include language saying they explicitly stack with other armor bonuses. So, grab one of those and enchant it up. Dastana stack with shields, bro. You're thinking of the already mentioned Chahar-Aina.

[Quietus]

I've got it now, thanks everyone! :smallbiggrin:

Glad we could be of help! Sometimes D&D rules can be really, really obtuse, and this is an easy mistake that many of us have made ourselves. It's right up there with "Why doesn't dual-wielding shields give me more AC" - both give Shield bonuses to AC, so they don't stack.