a rather odd question

[thubby]

i was just watching "flatliners", and it deals with near death experiences. they explore this by killing themselves in a controlled manner then getting revived.

but this got me wondering, how much permanent damage would something like that actually cause?

[Jimorian]

Any time there's a cutoff of oxygen to the brain, there's some damage. Whether or not it's something noticeable depends mostly on how long the deprivation has gone on, along with other variables, a big one being body temperature. I've even heard one theory that the "white light" that a lot of near-death patients experience is really just a visual manifestation of the brain damage occurring, but it's only a theory.

But it's the kind of thing that you might be able to get away with once or twice, but repeated experiments will probably produce noticeable effects.

[Yora]

There once was a highly complicated heart surgery for which they stopped the heart for six days before setting it to work again. But during all the time, supplying oxygen to the cells was done with machines, so damage was apparently close to none.

[Brother Oni]

Any time there's a cutoff of oxygen to the brain, there's some damage. Whether or not it's something noticeable depends mostly on how long the deprivation has gone on, along with other variables, a big one being body temperature.

Further to this, just because the body has stopped breathing doesn't mean the oxygen levels in the blood suddenly plummets to zero.

Much like a household plumbing system when you turn the water mains off, there's still something left in the system, so it'll take a little while for the levels to drop below critical levels where damage starts to occur - you may have heard of the 'three minute' mark, which is a rough rule of thumb at normal body temperature.

[factotum]

I believe there are known situations of people surviving with no appreciable loss of mental faculties after being essentially "dead" for twenty minutes or more, but that usually involves drowning in ice-cold water or similar situations where the brain is immediately chilled.

[Traab]

Further to this, just because the body has stopped breathing doesn't mean the oxygen levels in the blood suddenly plummets to zero.

Much like a household plumbing system when you turn the water mains off, there's still something left in the system, so it'll take a little while for the levels to drop below critical levels where damage starts to occur - you may have heard of the 'three minute' mark, which is a rough rule of thumb at normal body temperature.

I thought it was 5 minutes before real damage occurs. Real meaning more than an academic "he lost 500 brain cells which he wont ever notice in practice" type of damage.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

i was just watching "flatliners", and it deals with near death experiences. they explore this by killing themselves in a controlled manner then getting revived.

but this got me wondering, how much permanent damage would something like that actually cause?

Why? *concerned expression* Are you pondering why this hasn't been on Mythbusters? I confess I've never seen this movie, so I don't know why they engage in this activity? Are you curious about attempting it yourself?

[thubby]

Are you curious about attempting it yourself?

lol, no. it was just a bit of idol curiosity. and since it breaks down to "how bad is it for your health to die" i couldnt think how to meaningfully google it.

the basic idea of the movie is that they want to explore the area beyond death. they directly reference things like deep sea exploration and going to the moon. it's an incredibly mediocre affair for such an interesting premise.

[Yora]

I thought it was 5 minutes before real damage occurs. Real meaning more than an academic "he lost 500 brain cells which he wont ever notice in practice" type of damage.
Since this is mostly about brains here, the entire thing gets incredibly compicated very soon. There are countless factors involved. Just the ability to heal any minor damage depends on a lot of things. Actual results under identical circumstances can be very different.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

lol, no. it was just a bit of idol curiosity. and since it breaks down to "how bad is it for your health to die" i couldnt think how to meaningfully google it.


Ah, that's good. Didn't want to lose you permanently to some weird auto-axphysiation experiment.

[Anxe]

I heard from a grad student in one of my neurology courses that a near-death experience releases something similar to LSD into your brain. That explains the vivid images/hallucinations that you see. So... Probably has the same dangers that go with LSD use. Can't be sure though.

[ForzaFiori]

to put it quite simply, death is horrible for the brain. with the heart and lungs no longer doing their jobs, the amount of air in your blood (vital to keep your brain working) begins to drop. the more it drops before your revived, the worse the damage is.

There are many things that effect how quickly the air saturation drops. temperature is the main one (which is why cryogenics are so in right now), but I would assume that also, where you are, the position your in, even probably if you had just breathed in or out would all make a difference.

Due to this, the amount of time before "significant" damage occurs is variable. Despite this, it's generally assumed that within 4 minutes, the person will have noticeable brain damage, and within 8-10, there's no point in bringing them back. Obviously, if they spent those moments in a frozen river, for instance, they'll have much less problems, even if brought back 20 or more minutes after death.

What actually happens during those minutes is highly debated. Some (as mentioned above) think a form of LSD is released. Others believe the brain flashes back to the earliest memories (hence the "life flashing before the eyes") and think the white light is the memory of birth. Another strong contender is that the white light is just the brain shutting off, as it's incredibly similar to what happens when you pass out (I personally can attest to that).

All in all, it's a very interesting phenomena that we have very little real information on. However, it's incredibly difficult to get any concrete data, due to several things, including the fact that few people actually come back from the near death experiences, typically the memories are rather fuzzy, memories are notorious for being skewed, there are no ways to truly measure what is being seen or happening in a person's mind, and you can't really stage experiments because of the mass of risks involved.

TL:DR: Death is bad, and it's bad pretty quick, but we're not entirely sure how, or what happens, b/c it's dangerous to run people through it over and over again.

[Yora]

to put it quite simply, death is horrible for the brain.
The two great universially accepted medical discoveries.

1. Water - in moderation - is not harmful.
2. Death is not good for the brain.

:smallbiggrin:

[Fiery Diamond]

The two great universially accepted medical discoveries.

1. Water - in moderation - is not harmful.
2. Death is not good for the brain.

:smallbiggrin:

And while (2) seems obvious to the majority of people, there are far too many people who fail to realize that (1) must necessarily include the "in moderation" part in order to be true. And I'm not talking about drowning, which people realize is bad. I'm talking about the people who don't realize that you can drink yourself to death...with water. A year or few ago there was a contest that some idiot radio show host (I think it was a radio show host, anyway... been a while and I don't remember for sure) held where the contestants drank as much water as they could without going to the restroom and the winner got a Nintendo Wii. A mother trying to win the Wii for her son died.

[shadow_archmagi]

The two great universially accepted medical discoveries.

1. Water - in moderation - is not harmful.
2. Death is not good for the brain.

:smallbiggrin:

Room-temperature water moving at a low velocity, naturally.