Rules question on alter self

[molten_dragon]

In the campaign I just started, I'm going to be playing a Swiftblade. We're starting at 4th level, so I haven't actually taken any levels in it yet.

One of the spells I have is alter self. I was looking around at alter self forms, and discovered the varag from MM4, which is fantastic for a swiftblade. I also noticed it gets Spring Attack as a bonus feat, which alter self grants me if I turn into one.

Now, I point this out, because at 1st level, Swiftblades get Spring Attack as a bonus feat, and it points out that if you already have spring attack, you can choose a different feat for which you meet the prerequisites. I have nothing against spring attack, but there are better things out there that I could take. So I'm wondering if altering myself into a Varag when I take my first level in Swiftblade will allow me to pick another feat in its place.

Anyone know where RAW stands on this?

[sonofzeal]

RAW is somewhat ambiguous. There's some who claim that temporary effects count for such things (see: Ring of Evasion and F.Lyrisist), but as a matter of RAI I've always been leery of it, and I'm not sure RAW has ever been clarified either.

So.... uh, ask your DM?

[GnomeFighter]

As a DM if one of my players asked I would say "no way at all". It's clear that the "choose a different feat" is to stop you having duplicate, and wasted, permenant feats. Temparary effects from spells have no effect on this.

[sonofzeal]

As a DM if one of my players asked I would say "no way at all". It's clear that the "choose a different feat" is to stop you having duplicate, and wasted, permenant feats. Temparary effects from spells have no effect on this.
I might be a bit more permissive. That's the intent, yes, but if he's Alter Selfing regularly then it matches that intent. More importantly, while I find pedantic ruleslawyering to be an entertaining pastime, in actual games I tend to play a bit more fast and loose. If a player is struggling to make something work, I'll often bend the rules a bit to ease them into it.

So... for me it would depend on what feat he's going for, and whether he's already optimizing more than the rest of the party. That's my other rule of thumb: newbies get the easy way out, but people with good book-lore should do the ground work themselves and find a way to make it work regardless.

[molten_dragon]

In intend to discuss it with the DM, but generally for these kinds of discussions, we like to know what RAW says to have a framework to build upon.

[sonofzeal]

In intend to discuss it with the DM, but generally for these kinds of discussions, we like to know what RAW says to have a framework to build upon.
I suppose by the strictest RAW standards, the question is "did you have Spring Attack at the moment you leveled up?" I don't recommend actually playing by those sorts of rules though. Things like this are better left between you and the DM without bringing the detailed ins-and-outs of RAW into it.

[Barstro]

So I'm wondering if altering myself into a Varag when I take my first level in Swiftblade will allow me to pick another feat in its place.

The result of a favorable ruling is that, by altering into a Varag, you get to be Batman and choose whatever feat you want at that time.

Seems to fail RAW to me. The PC gets Spring Attack because "the PC trained really hard for a while to learn it". A Varag gets Spring Attack because the race has an innate ability. It makes no sense that you can now pretend that all the PC's training at Spring Attack went to some other feat on a temporary basis.

Under Rules as DM Wants, I would possibly permit some small bonus to your Spring Attack due to "losing" a feat, but I would not allow you to get a whole new feat.

[Pilo]

I say no because spells and magic item are not parts of leveling.

If you are affected by Fox's Cunning when you pass a level, you don't get more skill points. Neither do you with a magic item that enhance intelligence.

[Curmudgeon]

I say no because spells and magic item are not parts of leveling.

If you are affected by Fox's Cunning when you pass a level, you don't get more skill points. Neither do you with a magic item that enhance intelligence.
The thing is, there's a specific rule saying that temporary INT boosts don't grant more skill points; it's on page 58 of the Player's Handbook, in Step 6. Skill Points of the Level Advancement sequence. There's no such rule for Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) level 1; instead, there's this:
If you already have Spring Attack, choose a different feat for which you do meet the prerequisites You're still going to be sinking Dodge and Mobility (both weak feats) into the prestige class's entry requirements, and giving up Spring Attack (a much stronger feat) on a permanent basis. You'll only get Spring Attack situationally, with no guarantee you'll have it when you need it.

Just follow the rules. There's no prohibition for using spells and/or magic items in the Level Advancement steps except for temporary INT boosts regarding skill points.

[Psyren]

RAW is somewhat ambiguous. There's some who claim that temporary effects count for such things (see: Ring of Evasion and F.Lyrisist), but as a matter of RAI I've always been leery of it, and I'm not sure RAW has ever been clarified either.

So.... uh, ask your DM?

1) The ring doesn't actually give you evasion so by RAW doesn't work for F-Lyrist.
2) Even if it did, the ring isn't really "temporary" because it has no duration. This is also why Impulse Boots DO work, because soulmelds last forever.
3) Per Complete Warrior, abilities gained from items can be used to satisfy PrC prereqs. Per Sage, so can soulmelds.

[Incriptus]

The RAW is tricky . . . I being the spiteful type I would allow it, but I would treat the phrase "If you already have Spring Attack..." as if were a prerequisite. Let him say "When I leveled up I had Spring Attack so I'm eligable for that bonus feat". Let him select a bonus feat of his choice. Should he ever lose Spring Attack feat [ie the spell coming to an end] he loses access to the bonus feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Should he ever lose Spring Attack feat [ie the spell coming to an end] he loses access to the bonus feat.
... and gets Spring Attack instead, as specified in the Special column of the Swiftblade class table.