Can this be built without breaking?

[missmvicious]

It's my husband's favorite PC idea, but it's so broken and home-brewed he can't ever use it. He shows up as a recurring NPC in a lot of campaigns, but doesn't get involved in combat unless it's a plot point or a "cinematic" because we have no idea how to build it.

We can't afford Christmas gifts for each other this year, so I thought I'd ask the Playground to help me get him this:

Bard Psion (Kankuro style)

For those of you who don't know who Kankuro is, he's a ninja in the Naruto anime world. He controls poisoned puppets with thin strands of chakra that extend from his fingers, which do nearly all of the fighting for him. Go here for more detail and look under abilities:
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kankurō

Anyway...

Instead of controlling puppets, he just needs to control daggers. His finger and hand movements determine the attack strategy the daggers would make, so the daggers would need to be able to make coordinated attacks. For instance, when he claps his hands, they make a pincer attack against a single foe; when he thrusts both hands forward, they fly forward like tiny spears. When he holds his hands up to the side, they stand at the ready pointing in the same direction he's facing.

He wants to be a Bard as well, for the back story, and he uses those same Psionic threads to perform backup instruments while he does his own performance. In combat, he dances to avoid being flanked, and is very much the pencil-mustache-wearing-old-school-swashbuckling, dashing-hero type... complete with a rose for a lady and a "haHAA!" after defeating a foe in combat. The effect is supposed to be corny, but still effective... in other words, if the build is ineffective, the fluff won't work, so he has to be optimized.

If Bard Psion doesn't accomplish this task, then maybe there is some Prestige Class or something that does. Can anyone build this guy for me?

Level = minimum level to be able to at least do the stuff I explained in the Spoiler.

Race = preferred Human or Half-Elf though if there's a better race that can still pull off the dashing-hero look, then lets roll with it.

Books = anything goes, but I'd like it to be RAW, not home-brewed. It would be nice if we stayed away from Dragon Magazine, just because we don't have many of those and couldn't reference the materials. But he has over 30 books on the subject of D&D 3.5, including Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Eberron, and Sword & Sorcery... so he should be okay with using most anything else you can reference.

Can this be built? I don't have the skill or the knowledge to build something like this. Help?

:smalleek:

[motoko's ghost]

The first thing that springs to mind is the dancing enhancement, but thats not capable of doing that.
Possibly using telekinesis to manipulate them, but you might need levels in master of the unseen hands to really get it to work at the level you want it to.
Bards dont get telekinesis but you could simply refluff master of the unseen hand to psionics if need be and just take ranks in profession(instruments), I'm pretty sure every class has that as a class skill.

[missmvicious]

What's the dancing enhancement? And what book has Master of the Unseen Hands in it?

Dancing enhancement sounds nifty. One of the things he'll do in combat is dance to avoid being flanked, kind of like a Shadowdancer, except without the shadow part. I think his character is supposed to be especially flashy...

[Kaje]

Master of the Unseen Hand is in Complete Warrior.

[JoeYounger]

Possibly using telekinesis to manipulate them, but you might need levels in master of the unseen hands to really get it to work at the level you want it to.

This, go gestalt bard with wizard/master of the unseen hand. It'd be perfect!

[motoko's ghost]

no no no no no, the Weapon is dancing,but all that does is hover nearby and attack someone adjacent for a few rounds before stopping, even if yyou had multiple ones, you wouldnt really be able to get more than 3-4 going at a time and you wouldn't really have any actions left.
Master of the unseen hand is in complete warrior, generally it boosts how effectively you can use telekinesis in combat and whatnot.

EDIT: NINJA'd!

[missmvicious]

What would I do to get the Dancy-no-flank ability?

I know that Improved Uncanny Dodge does this, if properly re-fluffed. Should I include Rogue in there then? Or is it possible to PrC twice?

Go Shadowdancer/Master of the Unseen Hand?

How do you calculate all those XP penalties?

[motoko's ghost]

Prestige doesnt count for multiclass penalties, you can take 2 or more prestige classes

[missmvicious]

Hm... I looking at minimum here:

L2 Bard (for decent ranks in multiple Perform slots)/L4 Rogue for (Improved Uncanny Dodge)/L9 Wizard (to cast Telekinesis)/L3 Master of the Unseen Hand (to use Full Attack).

Prime stats would have to be INT and CHA; perhaps dump in STR or CON.

Is that right?

Or

L1 Bard/L2 Shadowdancer/L9 Wizard/L3 Master or the Unseen Hand.

Since there's no real class prerequisite for Shadowdancer, I could just go:
L9 Wizard/L2 Shadowdancer/L3 Master of the Unseen Hand

and jam a lot of ranks into Perform slots.

[motoko's ghost]

dump STR, try not to dump con completely(hp are important!)

[missmvicious]

Feats? Any suggestions?

[motoko's ghost]

not sure about feats but the swift concentration skill trick from complete scoundrel would let you concentrate on the telekinesis as a swift action, allowing you to maintain telekinesis while taking full rounds of action.

[Piggy Knowles]

How about...

Illumian (Naenhoon), Wizard 6/Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard) 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 4/Prestige Bard +4/Sacred Exorcist +3

Use your naenhoon sigil to apply Chain Spell'd Telekinesis to a whole lot of knives at once, and control them all with your mind.

[motoko's ghost]

I thought master of the unseen hand allowed to to wield the individual pieces separately?

[missmvicious]

It's important that he be able to control all the knives, but it's okay if he can't control as many as he wants. In some versions of the home-brews he's made, he's only able to control as many knives as he has levels. In other versions, only as many as he has free fingers. For instance, if he's holding something in one hand, he can only control 5 daggers.

I like where you're going with this Piggy Knowles, but I have just one question before we discuss build mechanics...

What's a Naenhoon?

[motoko's ghost]

Its the illumian sigils, you get 2 and they combine to give different effects, such as naenhoon

[Piggy Knowles]

Illumians (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=2)get certain sigils, which have various effects. They can be combined to have different effects. You get one sigil at first level, and another at second level.

"Naen" means mind and gives a bonus to intelligence based skills. "Hoon" means life and gives a bonus to wisdom based skills. Together they combine as the "Naenhoon" sigil, which lets you spend turn undead attempts (which you get from Sacred Exorcist) to apply metamagic to spells for free.

[DoctorGlock]

Don't psionic classes get telekinetic thrust as a 3rd level power? Thats does the knife throwing. Telekinetic Maneuver is 4th and Telekinetic Force is also 3rd.

Magic mantle ardent with substitute power could get into prestige bard with the right interpretations of schools/disciplines and if you find a way to get perform. Manifest psionic creation to get poison for the daggers and you are good. Level 6-7, not broken, and legal.

Edit: Magic Mantle Ardent 2/Human Paragon 3 (meets skill reqs)/Prestige Bard 2/Bard PrC X

Feats: 1 X, 2 Practiced Manifester, 3X everything is open

Mantles: Magic (to get prestige bard), Force (telekinesis), Mental Might.Communication (bard like powers)

Clairsentiece=Divination
Telpathy=Enchantment
Any power that grants concealment (there are a few metacreativity)=Illusion, but this pushes it, I suggest dropping this one, since you seem willing to allow a degree of homebrew anyway

[missmvicious]

Which book talks about the Illumian Sigils?

Wizard 6 can't cask Telekinesis, can he? And I noticed you have Prestige Bard in there twice. Is there a reason for that?

The most gestalt thing I ever built before this was I multi-classed once. I was munchkining hard core for that session when my Bard took a level in Rogue...

So, I am a lost baby in the woods on this. The more help I can get here, the better.

[motoko's ghost]

illumians are in races of destiny. Rogue dip in bard build is munchkin? you should see some of the monsters we come up with here. In the challenge I'm running the character has quite literally slapped efreet round for wishes so he could pull off cheese that is quite frankly frightening.
The second prestige bard is saying tat you take another 4 lvs in it.

[Piggy Knowles]

Right. Actually, I got the order a little off...

First you take six levels in Wizard.

Then you take two levels in Prestige Bard. This gives you a few bardic abilities, and advances your wizard casting by one. (Effective Wizard level: 7)

Then, you take two levels in Sacred Exorcist. This gives you Turn Undead, and advances your wizard casting by two. (Effective Wizard level: 9, high enough to get Telekinesis.)

Then, take your four levels of Master of the Unseen Hand. This gives you several abilities related to telekinesis, including the ability to switch between the different versions of the spell, and the ability to make full attacks with your TK'd items. It doesn't advance your wizard casting, but it will increase your caster level for casting Telekinesis.

Then, finish out by taking four more levels of Prestige Bard. This will give you more casting, and more bardic abilities. (Effective Wizard level: 12, or 16 with Telekinesis).

Finally, you've got two more levels left, so you might as well take some more levels of Sacred Exorcist, which gives you everything wizard would and more. You COULD take more levels in Prestige Bard, but you'll lose another wizard level and won't gain any useful abilities in return. (Effective Wizard level: 14, or 18 with Telekinesis.)

[missmvicious]

Don't psionic classes get telekinetic thrust as a 3rd level power? Thats does the knife throwing. Telekinetic Maneuver is 4th and Telekinetic Force is also 3rd.

Magic mantle ardent with substitute power could get into prestige bard with the right interpretations of schools/disciplines and if you find a way to get perform. Manifest psionic creation to get poison for the daggers and you are good. Level 6-7, not broken, and legal.

1. Could multiple daggers be controlled this way?

2. Could the daggers' projectile be adjusted mid-flight the generate coordinated attacks? Think the creepy dagger in The Shadow.

[missmvicious]

Right.

Cool! I won't need the extra levels. All I'm giving him is the lowest possible build to make this character function according to specs. He can level it up through adventuring from there.

But... why do we put Sacred Exorcist in there? I don't think he wants to control undead... just daggers and musical instruments, mainly.

[Flickerdart]

Cloud of Knives would be useful if you want more daggers. There's actually a huge amount of spells that make weapons, and two I know of that make them fly around: Animate Weapon (3rd level, CMage) and Whirling Blade (2nd level, SpC).

[Piggy Knowles]

But... why do we put Sacred Exorcist in there? I don't think he wants to control undead... just daggers and musical instruments, mainly.

He can use those turn undead attempts to power metamagic feats instead, via the naenhoon sigil. By using this with Chain Spell, he can use telekinesis on a huge number of knives at once.

[Seerow]

Isn't there a wall of blades or wall of knives spell or something along those lines? Seems like it would fit the character well.

[DoctorGlock]

1. Could multiple daggers be controlled this way?

2. Could the daggers' projectile be adjusted mid-flight the generate coordinated attacks? Think the creepy dagger in The Shadow.

Don't know the reference but it ends up at 1 dagger/cl, i posted more info in my original, but it would require a little homebrewing or an interpretive stretch to be legal since psionics has no illusion discipline unless someone can correct me. In which case you can grab expanded knowledge for it.

Alternetely, for a real stretch, since expanded knowledge lets you grab off list powers, and STP erudite can cast all spells as psi powers, you can expanded knowledge your prereqs off of the STP erudite list and be entirely legal. In that case take practiced manifester at 3rd and expended knowledge as your paragon bonus feat

Alternately, If you have not started the game yet and are not too attached to traditional 3.5, you can play Legend which has telekinesis as a feat and is 3.5-ish.

Edit: I need to ask what level we are tinkering with, my version is very clunky and is built to work at the lowest possible level. Don't get me wrong, it scales well and the creation mantle is great, especially with substitute power, but an arcane way is better.

Also, ghost template progression gets telekinesis at 2nd, Bard 1/Ghost 2 will be knife spamming earliest, but he probably does not want to be a spook.

Edit: Swordsaged while the forums tried to eat my post. Curse my connection.

[Piggy Knowles]

As an alternative, you can use the Ghost savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), which would give you telekinesis at will. For something like that, I might consider...

Ghost 2/Bard 3/Warblade 2/Master of the Unseen Hand 4

Not sure if being a ghost works with the character concept, but it can certainly pull off all the abilities you requested. He'd have to get Ghost Touch roses to hand out, though...

EDIT: (A) Swordsage'd, and (B) Duh, he can just use telekinesis to hand out his roses!

[Flickerdart]

Isn't there a wall of blades or wall of knives spell or something along those lines? Seems like it would fit the character well.
Blade Barrier is a Cleric spell, unfortunately.

[Seerow]

Blade Barrier is a Cleric spell, unfortunately.

Is there no way to get it over to the Wizard spell list? Like on a domain or something maybe?

[missmvicious]

illumians are in races of destiny. Rogue dip in bard build is munchkin? you should see some of the monsters we come up with here. In the challenge I'm running the character has quite literally slapped efreet round for wishes so he could pull off cheese that is quite frankly frightening.
The second prestige bard is saying tat you take another 4 lvs in it.

LOL. That's my point. I'm not really good at this kind of thing. Actually, nobody in our gaming circle is. We all tend to stick to base races and base classes with occasional jaunts into monsters as PCs. That's why this character has always just been a home-brewed plot-point NPC. But my husband has always wanted to use him as a PC in a campaign.

I wouldn't be upset if someone just built the thing for me. I don't even know where to start. If it can't be built on this website:

http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm

Odds are, I don't know how to build it.

[Tar Palantir]

Not sure how much this helps, but I feel obligated to mention that the Ring of Telekinesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#telekinesis) can be used at will and can qualify you for Master of the Unseen Hand without requiring casting levels, freeing you up to use those levels to cover the other abilities of the build.

[motoko's ghost]

He'd have to get Ghost Touch roses to hand out, though...

EDIT: (A) Swordsage'd, and (B) Duh, he can just use telekinesis to hand out his roses!

telekineticly throwing roses? My god, it's tuxedo mask!

[Douglas]

The critical build elements you need to get the "horde of remote-control daggers" effect are Telekinesis, Master of the Unseen Hand, Chain Spell, and a way to apply Chain Spell to Telekinesis. The simplest way to get that last one is to just use it normally, paying an 8th level spell slot, but that requires a lot of levels. Some sort of metamagic cost replacement or mitigation would make it achievable sooner.

Since you want Bard for some of the fluff and backstory, I'd suggest going with Bard/Sublime Chord for the spellcasting. Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 3 is enough to get weapon-wielding telekinesis with full attacks. Take Arcane Thesis (Telekinesis), Practical Metamagic (Chain Spell), and Metamagic Spell Focus (Transmutation), and 3 times per day you can use Chain Spell on Telekinesis at no extra cost, wielding up to 15 daggers at once and using full attacks with them all. Hmm, a few more tweaks could be made to this...

Let's see, important details:
Race: Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic, needed to qualify for Practical Metamagic)
Classes: Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1(Complete Arcane)/Master of the Unseen Hand 4(Complete Warrior)
Feats:
Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) (Complete Arcane)
Spell Focus (Transmutation)
Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Chain Spell (Complete Arcane)
Practical Metamagic (Chain Spell) (Races of the Dragon)
Arcane Thesis (Telekinesis) (Player's Handbook 2)
Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation) (Complete Mage)
Spells:
Telekinesis (duh)
Greater Magic Weapon
Sonorous Hum (Spell Compendium)
Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium)
Magic items:
Ring of Arcane Might (Magic Item Compendium)
Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium)
Vest of Legends (Dungeon Master's Guide 2)
Memento Magica (5th level) (Magic Item Compendium)

You get 10 caster level from Bard, 1 from Sublime Chord, 4 from Practiced Spellcaster, and 1 from the ring for a total of 16 normally. Specifically for Telekinesis, you get another 4 from Master of the Unseen Hand and another 2 from Arcane Thesis for a total of 22.

Your Inspire Courage is at +2 from levels, boosted to +3 by the vest, and increased by 1 by each of Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, and the Badge of Valor (though using both of the latter two takes the swift actions from both of your first 2 rounds). This adds up to a total of +6.

Cast Greater Magic Weapon with Chain Spell to give 17 daggers a +4 enhancement bonus all day. This takes a 5th level slot. You will need to do this at least twice if you want your maximum Telekinesis capacity to all have the bonus.

In combat, start Inspiring Courage and cast Telekinesis with Chain Spell to wield up to 21 daggers simultaneously. You can do this 3 times per day, if you have enough slots (the Memento Magica will help with that, especially if you get multiples). The daggers have an attack bonus of 22 plus your charisma bonus plus their enhancement bonus (+4 from GMW) plus Inspire Courage, get 4 attacks each (with standard iterative penalties), and deal 1d4 plus enhancement plus Inspire Courage damage each. That's 21 daggers at +32 plus charisma attack bonus, full attacks (get Haste for even more attacks), and 1d4+10 damage. Optionally, cast Sonorous Hum first so you can do other things while your daggers attack, possibly even casting Telekinesis again for another set of daggers.

[motoko's ghost]

Vampire could also work, as it has telekinesis as an at-will SLA,combined with quicken spell-like ability it could be good, slightly borked by the LA though.
On the plus side you can act dramatic in a cape with a mask and the roses you throw are material, sorry but I cant get the mental image of a d&d version of tuxedo mask out of my head.

[Piggy Knowles]

Vampire could also work, as it has telekinesis as an at-will SLA

...? Source? The core vampire definitely doesn't get Telekinesis, and I don't recall the LM versions having it either.

[motoko's ghost]

...? Source? The core vampire definitely doesn't get Telekinesis, and I don't recall the LM versions having it either.
Whoops, my bad, I was think about demon lords(I've been stating too many of those bloody(quite literally) guys lately)
:smallredface:

[Person_Man]

You could always cast Animate Objects on daggers or pre-made puppets.

It's an extremely effective spell (you animate one object per caster level), and tons of different classes can cast it.

My suggestion would be Binder 10+. The Desharis vestige allows you to cast Animate Objects once every 5 rounds at will, the Zceryll vestige lets you Summon Monster (scaled to your level) once every 5 rounds at will (which probably comes closest to the ability of Puppet Control in terms of copying the numerous effects that Kankuro's puppet's are capable of) and grants Touchsight (which is fairly close to the ninja ability to sense chakra), and/or The Triad grants various psionic powers and proficiency with all exotic weapons.

[DoctorGlock]

...? Source? The core vampire definitely doesn't get Telekinesis, and I don't recall the LM versions having it either.

Vampire Lords get it, but that takes the already inflated LA up to 11 and then some.

[motoko's ghost]

Desharis does fit the sociable bard feel what with its inability to not join a party/pub/big group of people, but it does mean its more difficult to leave cities.

EDIT: why do people always reply to what I said while I'm saying something else?:smallconfused:, also thanks that may have been what I was thinking of.

[Person_Man]

Desharis does fit the sociable bard feel what with its inability to not join a party/pub/big group of people, but it does mean its more difficult to leave cities.

Not really. The Special Requirement reads:


If you have gone more than a day without binding Desharis, you may only draw his seal in a village or larger city. Attempts to do so elsewhere fail outright. You can, however, "carry" Desharis into the wild; this is why you may continue to summon him, even outside the urban environment, if you have not allowed more than a day to lapse since you last did so.

So as long as you're Binding him every day, it's not an issue. Plus you can just take Ignore Special Requirements, which is offered as a Bonus Feat.

Also, Desharis's Animate Objects ability has a really interesting wording:

"Spirits of the City: You can animate objects, as the spell, as a caster of your binder level. Once you have used this ability, you must wait 5 rounds after the effect has expired, or all the objects have been destroyed, before you may do so again."

Thus you could carry around a large number of alchemical items, and attack with Binder level # of them every round.

[motoko's ghost]

Yeah it is a nice ability, I can remember making a rogue/expert who used them to set off traps or deliver explosives, good times.
Mind you if it's actually possible to fit all our ideas into one build, it will probably be ridiculous...ly awesome:smalltongue: and maybe a bit overpowered.

[GnomeGninjas]

Prestige doesnt count for multiclass penalties, you can take 2 or more prestige classes

Where did you find this rule?

[DoctorGlock]

Where did you find this rule?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm


Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

[Seerow]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm

iirc that quote only exists in the SRD and doesn't show up in the relevant section of the DMG or Errata. Could be mis-remembering though.

[DoctorGlock]

iirc that quote only exists in the SRD and doesn't show up in the relevant section of the DMG or Errata. Could be mis-remembering though.

Could have sworn it was there as well. Eh, I'll check later, it's late here.

[Douglas]

I think it's text that was in the 3.0 DMG and was omitted by mistake when they copied portions of it to 3.5.

[missmvicious]

So, Douglas's plan works best then?

Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 4?

Will that also allow him to have the dancing-to-prevent-flanking effect via Uncanny Dodge or some analog thereof?

[missmvicious]

What about Ability Score requirements?

With all this multi-classing, he's bound to get MAD.

I don't want to get goofy with the build and do straight 18s. DMs wouldn't want that PC in the campaign, but I don't want the character to have Abilities Scores that are like... 1 point below a Feat pre-requisite or to have some other aggravating technicality like that gimp the PC.

It was agreed upon earlier that STR is the dump stat. If I start with an Elite Array (which is generally acceptable in most campaigns) I'd have:

15 CHA?
14 INT?
13 WIS?
12 DEX?
10 CON?
8 STR?

Then, I think, I can add 3 points from leveling up if he's level 15. I'm not sure where to put them. I guess, +1 CHA, +2 INT? That would give him 2 16s, which would give him nice skill points, a good skill set, and protect him against 99% of Feat prerequisites based on INT or CHA.

Thoughts?

[Douglas]

You could replace one of the Bard levels with Monk and take Ascetic Mage (feat from Complete Adventurer). That wouldn't specifically do anything about flanking, but it would give you charisma to AC, which you could fluff as dancing away from enemy attacks. On the downside, this would cost you a caster level, dropping your Greater Magic Weapon to +3 unless you get something to make up for it. Though on that subject I just realized that GMW isn't on the Bard list and it's one level too low to get it from Sublime Chord.

Modifying slightly...

Just noticed Chain Spell has a prerequisite I didn't satisfy, too. I'll post an altered version of the build soon.

What about Ability Score requirements?

With all this multi-classing, he's bound to get MAD.

I don't want to get goofy with the build and do straight 18s. DMs wouldn't want that PC in the campaign, but I don't want the character to have Abilities Scores that are like... 1 point below a Feat pre-requisite or to have some other aggravating technicality like that gimp the PC.
MAD? With the build I made? Nope. It is quite thoroughly SAD. All it needs is charisma. Charisma, charisma, and more charisma.

[Douglas]

Ok, I have double checked prerequisites, and I'm fairly sure this is valid:

Remove 1 level of Bard and replace it with 1 level of Monk. This gets you wisdom to AC from Monk.

Add two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) of your choice. This will give you enough bonus feats to add Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer, swap Monk AC to use charisma) and Extra Spell (Complete Arcane). For the latter, there's some debate about whether it can get a spell that's not on your class list, but this is an odd corner case that lets you skip that argument - Greater Magic Weapon is, in fact, on the Sublime Chord class list; Sublime Chord just happens to not give any 3rd level or lower spells known by default.

Add Harmonic Chorus (Spell Compendium) to spells known. In combination with Sonorous Hum, this will let you increase your caster level by 2 temporarily to compensate for the loss from Monk, so your GMW will still be +4.

Use the Music of Creation option from Eberron Campaign Setting page 34 to get Song of the Heart as a bonus feat in place of the Suggestion ability of Bardic Music. This frees up a feat slot to take another metamagic feat to satisfy Chain Spell's prerequisite.

That makes the modified build:
Race: Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic, needed to qualify for Practical Metamagic)
Classes: Monk 1/Bard 9/Sublime Chord 1(Complete Arcane)/Master of the Unseen Hand 4(Complete Warrior)
Feats:
(2 flaws)
Flaw bonus 1: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
Flaw bonus 2: Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation) (Complete Mage)
Human bonus: Extend Spell
Level 1: Chain Spell (Complete Arcane)
Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) (Complete Arcane)
Level 6: Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer)
Bard 6 in place of Suggestion: Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Level 9: Practical Metamagic (Chain Spell) (Races of the Dragon)
Level 12: Arcane Thesis (Telekinesis) (Player's Handbook 2)
Level 15: Extra Spell (Greater Magic Weapon) (Complete Arcane)
Spells:
Telekinesis (duh)
Greater Magic Weapon
Sonorous Hum (Spell Compendium)
Harmonic Chorus (Spell Compendium)
Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium)
Magic items:
Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium)
Vest of Legends (Dungeon Master's Guide 2)
Memento Magica (5th level) (Magic Item Compendium)
Cloak of Charisma +6 (not necessary, but highly recommended)

You get 9 caster level from Bard, 1 from Sublime Chord, and 4 from Practiced Spellcaster for a total of 14 normally. Specifically for Telekinesis, you get another 4 from Master of the Unseen Hand and another 2 from Arcane Thesis for a total of 20.

Your Inspire Courage is at +2 from levels, boosted to +3 by the vest, and increased by 1 by each of Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, and the Badge of Valor (though using both of the latter two takes the swift actions from both of your first 2 rounds). This adds up to a total of +6.

Prepare for casting GMW by casting Sonorous Hum and then Harmoic Chorus targeting yourself. This boosts your caster level to 16 for 14 rounds. Cast Greater Magic Weapon with Chain Spell to give 17 daggers a +4 enhancement bonus all day. This takes a 5th level slot. You will need to do this at least twice if you want your maximum Telekinesis capacity to all have the bonus.

In combat, start Inspiring Courage and cast Telekinesis with Chain Spell (and Extend Spell, it's free thanks to Arcane Thesis) to wield up to 21 daggers simultaneously. This takes a 5th level slot and one use of Metamagic School Focus. You can do this 3 times per day, if you have enough slots (the Memento Magica will help with that, especially if you get multiples). The daggers have an attack bonus of 20 plus your charisma bonus plus their enhancement bonus (+4 from GMW) plus Inspire Courage, get 4 attacks each (with standard iterative penalties), and deal 1d4 plus enhancement plus Inspire Courage damage each. That's 21 daggers at +30 plus charisma attack bonus, full attacks (get Haste for even more attacks), and 1d4+10 damage. Optionally, cast Sonorous Hum first so you can do other things while your daggers attack, possibly even casting Telekinesis again for another set of daggers. With that, you could have 42 daggers going at once.

If you're worried about multiclassing XP penalties, I assure you that's not a concern here. Bard is your favored class and is therefore ignored, Sublime Chord and Master of the Unseen Hand are both prestige classes and don't count, and that leaves just Monk. There's nothing left for Monk to have a level gap with, so no XP penalty.

Regarding MAD vs SAD, this build gets charisma to AC, charisma and caster level to attacks with the Telekinesis-controlled daggers, and charisma-based casting (both Bard and Sublime Chord). All other ability scores are incidental luxuries. If you really wanted to you could pick Ruin Delver's Fortune (Spell Compendium) as one of your 4th level spells known to get charisma to saves too, though it's rather short duration. The immediate action casting time lets you get away with really waiting until you need it to cast it, but you'll run out of spell slots for it pretty quickly.

[missmvicious]

Wow, Douglas.

Thanks! I'll try to put this together between now and Christmas. I don't know much about multi-classing and PrCs, but I've got a week to figure it out, and put it on a character sheet.

[Douglas]

You're welcome. If you have any questions about how any particular detail works, or suggestions for what to put in the unspecified spots (ability scores, skills other than what's required for prerequisites, most spells known, what to spend the rest of the equipment budget on, etc.), feel free to ask.

A sort of warning, though: this build is quite powerful, enough so that if the rest of the party isn't good at optimizing it will stick out as kind of overwhelming. A single batch of 21 daggers with just what I posted will have 84 attacks per round, each of them dealing 1d4+10 damage with a very high attack bonus. If even half of them hit, that's 42d4+420 damage. This isn't all that impressive in the context of the super-optimized builds that sometimes get tossed around online, but it's enormously better than I'd guess your group is used to. Fortunately, it can be toned down with a pretty fine degree of control just by reducing how many Inspire Courage boosts you use, how many daggers you use (nothing says you have to use all 21 targets available to you - or you could designate some musical instruments as some of the targets), or both. On the flip side, it has one enormous weak point in that damage reduction is many times as effective as usual against it.

Also, the sheer number of rolls required to actually use this in play would probably be best handled by a computerized die roller program. Rolling 84 (or 105 with Haste, or 210 with Haste and Sonorous Hum and a second Telekinesis) attacks for a single character every round would get aggravating very quickly.

Oh, and with the DR problem, it might be a good idea to get a bunch of daggers of the materials most commonly involved in DR. Some cold iron, some alchemical silver. Adamantine would be good too, but that's a lot more expensive than the other two at 3000 gp per dagger.

[missmvicious]

*Scoops jaw off the floor*

He can make up to 210 attacks per round?!!!!1!!one!

Gods don't have that many attacks per round! Sigh...

My hubby is enough of a class act to tone it down for the rest of us, but yeesh. This is easily the most optimized character any of us will ever use.

Kind of makes my L2 Bard/L1 Rogue look like a joke. :smallfrown:

[motoko's ghost]

[COLOR="Purple"]*Scoops jaw off the floor*

He can make up to 210 attacks per round?!!!!1!!one!

Gods don't have that many attacks per round! Sigh...

You gods are powerless against a being of my powerfor I have reached levels of power they cannot comprehend...level 15!!!:smalltongue:

[Douglas]

*Scoops jaw off the floor*

He can make up to 210 attacks per round?!!!!1!!one!

Gods don't have that many attacks per round! Sigh...

My hubby is enough of a class act to tone it down for the rest of us, but yeesh. This is easily the most optimized character any of us will ever use.

Kind of makes my L2 Bard/L1 Rogue look like a joke. :smallfrown:
It's one full attack per dagger, with an effective BAB of 20. That's 4 attacks per dagger right there. Add Haste and it's 5 attacks per dagger. 21 daggers per Telekinesis, and with Sonorous Hum it's possible to have 2 Telekinesis spells going at once, and you've got 5 attacks/dagger * 21 daggers/Telekinesis * 2 Telekinesis = 210 attacks. So, yup, 210 attacks per round if he goes all out. They are, at least, individually weak attacks - a god might not attack 210 times, but a god would typically do a hell of a lot more than 1d4+10 damage per attack.

Also, the full 210 takes 3 rounds of setup to get going - on round 1, you just start Inspire Courage; on round 2, you cast Sonorous Hum; on round 3, you cast Telekinesis and can attack with one set of daggers; on round 4, you cast Telekinesis again and can finally attack with all 42. If you have to cast Haste yourself, that adds yet another round of setup. Settling for 1 set of daggers, you can start attacking on round 2.

And of course a level 15 build makes a level 3 character look like a joke. That is what a 12 level advantage tends to do. If you intend to use this character as a PC in a campaign, it will have to be a high level campaign.

The final 2 levels aren't strictly necessary, so you could run this character at level 13, but those 2 levels make a major difference in power. Level 14 is when full attacks come online - before that, you only get one attack per dagger, and at level 13 you only have enough caster level for 18 daggers per Telekinesis, so it's at most 36 attacks. Level 15 is when you get Greater Magic Weapon, which is responsible for about a third of the final build's damage, and is also when your caster level reaches Chain Spell's cap, going from 20 daggers to 21 daggers.

Level 13: 1 attack per dagger, 18 daggers per Telekinesis, 1d4+6 damage per attack. Also does not ignore DR/magic.
Level 14: full attack per dagger, 20 daggers per Telekinesis, 1d4+6 damage per attack. Still does not ignore DR/magic.
Level 15: full attack per dagger, 21 daggers per Telekinesis, 1d4+10 damage per attack, daggers are magical and ignore DR/magic.

Oh, and for a possible nice extra visual/fluff/utility thing, at level 15 he can spend one of his Telekinesis targets on making himself fly. So not only do you have this guy coordinating his daggers with dance moves, he's also floating in midair while doing it, and moving up to 20 feet per round with perfect maneuverability. Oh, and he can bring the party along with him for free without even spending another target. And then spend a few more on bringing a small band's worth of instruments along and having them play themselves to provide theme music for him - costs 1 target per hand that would normally be required to play the instruments (I don't think wind instruments can be played this way), with the first hand per object included in the cost of bringing the object along in the first place.

I just realized, doing that could have an interesting fluff effect - beware when Kankuro stands on the ground and forgoes his theme music, for the situation must truly be dire if he has that great a need for MOAR DAGGERS!!1!1!1!!:smalltongue:

[missmvicious]

ROFL! That does sound pretty cool! I think he'll be pleased with this dancing Bard of death.

:smallsmile:

[Douglas]

Be sure to let us know his reaction to it.

For continuing the build past level 15, I'd say just go with more Sublime Chord. It's simple and it gets you more casting, and in particular the ability to cast Chain Spell Telekinesis more times per day and/or with less reliance on the Memento Magica. Once you get 6th level slots you can do it without Metamagic School Focus, which means you aren't strictly limited by that feat's 3/day limit any more.