Shivering Touch, Unbalanced? [3.5]

[Godskook]

So, I just had my first experience with the infamous Shivering Touch, and I instantly began worrying about the game balance of my campaign, especially since there's a *HEAVY* draconic influence on the setting. I was wondering if I'm over-reacting(if so, why?), and if not, what people normally do to deal with the spell.

[Flickerdart]

Scintillating Scales, immunity to Cold, antimagic, spellblades, rings of counterspell...if you know of the spell, it's easy to prepare against it.

[The Glyphstone]

It's infamous for a reason. Ban it outright, and say no more, especially if you have lots of dragons. It's that, or every dragon ever goes around with Sheltered Vitality active, which is just a cowardly way of banning it.

[Circle of Life]

[...]what people normally do to deal with the spell.

Give it the Ray of Enfeeblement treatment.

Or have a lot of really paranoid dragons, either way.

[JaronK]

It's a spell so powerful you need specific defenses against it. Then again, it's also not very useful against many enemies, so it's just a specific targeted killer. I imagine many smart Dragons would have to defend against it.

JaronK

[bloodtide]

Shivering touch can be a problem if your in a 'traditional low-magic' type game or a 'Storyteller type game' or a 'Hero's first' type game. But if you not playing one of those types of games, it's just another attack spell.

The first balance point of the spell is that it's a touch spell, and it should be hard to touch a foe. This is more so true of a dragon. Dragons should not walk over and fight enemies, they should fly above them and attack.

The spell still needs to touch the effected creature, so AC buffs are always a good idea. And the spell needs to over come Spell Resistance, so again spell resistance buffs are a good idea.

Then you get magic vs magic. Again if your not in a low magic type game, there are tons of protections that can be used. Plenty of spells can protect a creature from a lowly 3rd level spell. Even better, the spell Mantle of the Icy Soul, can make shivering touch useless.

[ShriekingDrake]

We just amended the spell to be more reasonable, giving the target a Fortitude save.

[Piggy Knowles]

The first balance point of the spell is that it's a touch spell, and it should be hard to touch a foe. This is more so true of a dragon. Dragons should not walk over and fight enemies, they should fly above them and attack.

Shivering Touch plus Spectral Hand. If you're really worried, Assay Resistance, too. It's why I'm not allowed to bring wizards anywhere within medium range of a dragon.

[Flickerdart]

I'm a fan of Reach Spell, myself, retrained once you take Archmage for Arcane Reach. If you kept your familiar, it's a reasonable vector for delivery too, so long as you take necessary precautions to safeguard your XP bomb.

[Aidan305]

It's infamous for a reason. Ban it outright, and say no more, especially if you have lots of dragons. It's that, or every dragon ever goes around with Sheltered Vitality active, which is just a cowardly way of banning it.

Gotta agree with this. It is, in no way, a balanced spell

[Yorae]

Scintillating Scales, immunity to Cold, antimagic, spellblades, rings of counterspell...if you know of the spell, it's easy to prepare against it.

A Lesser Globe of Invulnerability should work as well, shouldn't it?


We just amended the spell to be more reasonable, giving the target a Fortitude save.

This sounds like a good idea, imo. Turns it into a save-or-probably-suck-slash-possibly-die.

The other solution I've heard thrown around is to make the damage a penalty instead, though that makes the spell kind of useless, since they will always retain at least 1 dex. Maybe against things that are REALLY dodgy that the party can't hit, but in that case your spell probably won't hit either.

[Douglas]

A Lesser Globe of Invulnerability should work as well, shouldn't it?
Sure, if you're willing to accept being pinned down in one spot. The Globe is immobile.

[Yorae]

Sure, if you're willing to accept being pinned down in one spot. The Globe is immobile.

Oops, forgot about that. Thanks for the correction.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you want to fight cheese with cheese without specifically targeting Shivering Touch, Wings of Cover works. Scintillating Scales is a very good pre-buff spell for a dragon in general, as it shores up a glaring weak point.

Then, if you want to get really mean, there's Friendly Fire. Whoops, that Reach Maximized Shivering Touch just paralyzed your cleric buddy!

[Godskook]

The other solution I've heard thrown around is to make the damage a penalty instead, though that makes the spell kind of useless, since they will always retain at least 1 dex. Maybe against things that are REALLY dodgy that the party can't hit, but in that case your spell probably won't hit either.

Except dex penalties make *GREAT* debuffs for a support caster to throw out so that his party can then actually hit the thing. And often enough, touch attacks have a significantly higher probability of hitting than regular attacks.

[ShriekingDrake]

This sounds like a good idea, imo. Turns it into a save-or-probably-suck-slash-possibly-die.

It's worked quite well and turned the spell from one the devastates dragons, who have solid Fort. saves to something that works more effectively on the less FORTunate spellcasters.

[tyckspoon]

The other solution I've heard thrown around is to make the damage a penalty instead, though that makes the spell kind of useless, since they will always retain at least 1 dex. Maybe against things that are REALLY dodgy that the party can't hit, but in that case your spell probably won't hit either.

It also means you should just use Ray of.. I want to say Clumsiness instead, which is exactly 'Ray of Enfeeblement for Dex.' Already defaults to a ranged attack, usable at a lower level, still works against things immune to Cold damage, and the caster-level based flat scaling makes it less susceptible to RNG screws. Lower spell level also makes it easier to pile on metamagics, or to buy on metamagics with items.

[Incriptus]

Except dex penalties make *GREAT* debuffs for a support caster to throw out so that his party can then actually hit the thing. And often enough, touch attacks have a significantly higher probability of hitting than regular attacks.

Yeah anyone who says a spell that on average [Assumes a 10.5 penalty on an enemy with atleast 10 Dex] decreases AC by 5, Reflex Saves by 5, Ranged Attacks by 5, Initiative checks by 5, Hide/Move silently/Ect checks by 5 . . . and has no save, I think they're playing some rather cheezy games.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Shivering Touch is too good, casting it is completely unfair, and it should never be used in any actual game that's not extremely high-op. It gets even worse with a liberal reading of its effect, i.e. its one round per caster level duration is how long the touch spell is charged on the caster's hand, with no limit to the number of times it can be delivered during that duration. There are a few ways of dealing with it:

Ban it outright, or add a Fort Negates save (the Chilblain gets it as a spell-like ability, and there's a save DC listed for it) and/or call it a Dex penalty instead of Dex damage. This is probably the easiest way of doing it. Clarify that its duration is how long the entire effect lasts from the time it's cast, and holding the charge for several rounds reduces the duration on the target by an equal amount of time.

Tell the players that anything they use, their opponents will use. Throw in archers who use +1 Spell Storing arrows containing Maximized Shivering Touch, and tell them that if they keep using that spell then their opponents will keep using that spell. Make them afraid to use broken spells, because anything the PCs can do, the monsters and NPCs can do better.

Apply a strict reading of the rules on spell range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range), namely the following: "If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted." Thus, once the caster breaks contact with the target, Shivering Touch immediately ends and the target's Dex score returns to normal, because it's out of the spell's range. Simply rolling a touch attack as part of casting the spell is not enough to maintain contact for more than a few seconds, the caster must initiate a grapple after casting it (typically having to wait another round to do so due to the actions required). If the target gets an AoO and it hits the caster, it counts as contact while holding the charge as brief contact is established, discharging the spell's effect for mere seconds and effectively wasting it. This is probably the easiest solution for a RAW-heavy game, such as an arena match between PCs.

[Yahzi]

Apply a strict reading of the rules on spell range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range), namely the following: "If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted."
That would wreck a lot more spells than just Shivering Touch.

I think the best solution is to turn it into a penalty. Second-best is to give it a Fort save. In both cases it is easy to ret-conn why it worked the first time: the dragon panicked/failed the save.

So the world doesn't change, and all dragonkind is not laid low by one stupid splatbook.

[SirFredgar]

I personally think it's a very powerfull spell, but it shouldn't be completely game-changing. I can see not expecting it, I had a similiar reaction when one of my players first pulled it out on one of my unsuspecting dragons.

But I think that if such a spell exists, then dragons are damn well going to know about it. It would be pretty logical to say that they have (at least the smart ones) planned some kind of defence. Once the players know the dragons know the tactic AND it's counters, they're less likely to keep using the spell.

Once I kept that thought in my mind, as well a few simple counters (Scintillating Scales, sheltered vitality are extremely easy defensive counters.) If even one caster is silly enough to walk up and touch a dragon with any form of protection, once that dragon gets his full attack the caster will no longer be having a good day. If they try and get you will rays, well, there is always ray deflection (something my dragons utilize often because of the no-save no-sr orb spells).

Once the players know that you, and more importantly the Dragons of your game world, are prepared for their cheeze, they will probably not lean on them so hevily.

[Godskook]

@Sir Fredgar, its not a matter of just what happens when its used against Dragons, but also against every other ~10 Dex opponent I make, including most humanoids that aren't dex focused.

[SirFredgar]

@Sir Fredgar, its not a matter of just what happens when its used against Dragons, but also against every other ~10 Dex opponent I make, including most humanoids that aren't dex focused.

In that case I'd agree with some of the above posters by making it a penalty, or adding a fort save.

If you go with the fort save option. The best comparison for it, at that point, would be hold person. 3d6dex vs Instant Paralyization. Both are 1/rd a level. Hold person has a medium range vs the touch range of shivering. The key difference at that point would be the fact that now they don't get a save every round, and shivering is blind to the type of target.

Otherwise the cloest spell I can think of to the effects of Shivering touch would be poison, a 4th level spell that only does 2d10con (intial + 1 minute later). I know Con>Dex, but it sure makes that immediate 3d6 seem steep.

[Yorae]

Tell the players that anything they use, their opponents will use. Throw in archers who use +1 Spell Storing arrows containing Maximized Shivering Touch, and tell them that if they keep using that spell then their opponents will keep using that spell. Make them afraid to use broken spells, because anything the PCs can do, the monsters and NPCs can do better.


In my opinion, this is outright worse than banning the spell. I strongly disagree with this sort of tactic - your objective is not to punish your players; you are telling a story about the players. They are the heroes (or villains. or antiheroes. or antivillains.), after all. Just tell them up front that you think the spell is broken and explain why and either patch it up with some houseruled errata or just ask them not to use it.

In any case, it's not like you have to use Frostburn anyway.)

[imperialspectre]

Apply a strict reading of the rules on spell range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range), namely the following: "If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted." Thus, once the caster breaks contact with the target, Shivering Touch immediately ends and the target's Dex score returns to normal, because it's out of the spell's range. Simply rolling a touch attack as part of casting the spell is not enough to maintain contact for more than a few seconds, the caster must initiate a grapple after casting it (typically having to wait another round to do so due to the actions required). If the target gets an AoO and it hits the caster, it counts as contact while holding the charge as brief contact is established, discharging the spell's effect for mere seconds and effectively wasting it. This is probably the easiest solution for a RAW-heavy game, such as an arena match between PCs.

While I can understand games that function by the bad guys being able to use anything the PCs do, making up rules that are entirely game-breaking and based on misreading the actual rules to the point of illiteracy is not an answer to anything. This isn't a "solution for a RAW-heavy game", and pretending it is makes people who actually understand RAW look like idiots. Which we're not.

(For people who aren't familiar with the RAW, "damage" is inflicted immediately on an attack roll, and "ability damage" is explicitly called out as a subset of damage. Moreover, delivering a spell that does damage is considered a weapon attack, which further reinforces the fact that touch-range spells are one-shot. Finally, touch range spells are discharged and take effect as soon as you touch a valid target.

Doing things BF's way would result in spellcasters having to hold on to any ally they put a touch-range buff spell on, which would be absurd.)

TL;DR: Don't make up absurd "RAW" to screw over players. It usually has effects that you didn't anticipate and almost always makes you look like a jerk.

[ericgrau]

The two solutions have already been covered: ban it or allow H-bombs to counter the A-bombs. I'd prefer the 1st. Overly specific defenses like a ring of counterspells, however, are utter garbage as they consume resources, can be overcome and protect against only 1 of 30 (broken or nonbroken) things. They're good only for extremely common attacks not for everything under the sun.

[Douglas]

Overly specific defenses like a ring of counterspells, however, are utter garbage as they consume resources, can be overcome and protect against only 1 of 30 (broken or nonbroken) things. They're good only for extremely common attacks not for everything under the sun.
They are, however, great for when a party gets well known for using a particular spell all the time. I remember one campaign where we were aggravating the DM by constantly casting Vortex of Teeth and either standing in the safe zone (and thus blocking all enemies from reaching it) or putting the safe zone somewhere inaccessible and slamming the door, then opening it to view the slaughter several rounds later. Then one day we cast it and all that happened was one enemy's ring produced a flash of light - it was a Ring of Counterspells with Vortex of Teeth stored in it, prepared specifically because that enemy had been expecting to fight us. We all laughed at how our "super" strategy had been so completely negated.