So our DM won't let us use wands...

[Peonofearth]

Okay guys. I'm new to this whole gitp forum, but mostly so I can air a complaint. Our DM, who is fairly laisez faire about dice rolling, etc, and is anti-party favoritism, outright refuses to let us use wands until we can make them. He also refuses to allow us to play artificers, noting that their crafting system can break the game.

How can I convince him that it'd be nice to have wands sold to us, even if it were at a slightly more exorbidant cost? Also, note that, while we have been playing for around 2 years, we have yet to have a character level over level 2.
Please help!:smallfrown:

[Flickerdart]

Why do you want wands so badly? Just buy some dorjes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm) instead. :smallwink:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I would say show him the list price of wands. They're not cheap, especially at low levels. Even the trusty Wand of Magic Missiles cheapest price is 750gp, for what? 50 shots? If you're still at Level 2, you are not exactly awash in gold.

Ask him for his reasons, then resist the temptation to modify your character sheet to show that Great Aunt Hilda's cats all died, so she was forced to leave her millions to her favorite, long lost distant nephew.

As a DM, I have no problem separating PCs from their cash for magic items. I just make sure to keep track of how many "shots" have been fired.

Harry Callahan: I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
Bank Robber: I gots to know.
.44 Magnum: CLICK.

[navar100]

Okay guys. I'm new to this whole gitp forum, but mostly so I can air a complaint. Our DM, who is fairly laisez faire about dice rolling, etc, and is anti-party favoritism, outright refuses to let us use wands until we can make them. He also refuses to allow us to play artificers, noting that their crafting system can break the game.

How can I convince him that it'd be nice to have wands sold to us, even if it were at a slightly more exorbidant cost? Also, note that, while we have been playing for around 2 years, we have yet to have a character level over level 2.
Please help!:smallfrown:

Solution: Get a new DM. Seriously. You have a DM who hates his players. He needs to have absolute control and cannot stand for any player character being "powerful" or otherwise able to do something nifty. He needs to keep your characters as pathetic weaklings so he can lord over how he can do anything he wants and your characters can't stop him unless he graciously allows you to defeat the bad guys.

[Leon]

How can I convince him that it'd be nice to have wands sold to us, even if it were at a slightly more exorbidant cost? Also, note that, while we have been playing for around 2 years, we have yet to have a character level over level 2.
Please help!:smallfrown:


You don't, you can ask but if he doesn't want them to be available then they are not available - getting the unseen masses of a forum to give you vocal support is not really going to sway anyone once they are settled on a issue.

If the fact that the game has be going to for 2 years and you are level 2 is bothering you then you can always leave, Start your own game up with leveling and items at what you deem a appropriate rate.

[Dr.Epic]

Meh, you don't really need wands. The majority of campaigns I've been in didn't have wands.

[Namfuak]

Harry Callahan: I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
Bank Robber: I gots to know.
.44 Magnum: CLICK.

Harry: "Did he fire six shots or only five?"
Rainman: Six. Definitely six.

As for your DM, you hardly need wands at that low level, although I know my group of level 4 characters got a wand to drop off an encounter (yay treasure table) (and we've used it all of once). But as others have said, if any of this really bothers you (especially the bit about never going over level 2), it may be time to restart the game with a new DM, or maybe have a sit down with your DM and air your grievances as a party. DM's have a weird position, in that they have a job to do, and that is to make their players enjoy playing with them - if they are failing at this, they should be replaced, just like with a real job.

[Peonofearth]

Well, I do appreciate the advice. We have talked to him. He's really intelligent, and he's actually becoming a better DM, and he really likes world building. I just feel like a wand would help us get around the whole "going in to boss encounters with no heals and the party at minimal hp" problem, with something like a wand of cure light wounds.
And we actually have a decent amount of gold. Moreso gold than magic items, usually. I feel like I would rather have items than gold, though, if they would be availible. I'm half willing to roll up a dragon shaman just for the fast healing aura at level one. We honestly die to dungeon grinds most often.

[Drelua]

Your DM's definitely doing something wrong if this issue has come up this early. Has he ever had issues in your group with wands? It sounds like you're getting way too much treasure for your level, and that can really imbalance a party. My DM used to be terrible at balancing treasure; I was once awarded with +10 bracers that gave me perfect maneuverability. (I was a homebrew race with something akin to raptoran flight)

Funny thing about Dirty Harry; I haven't seen it, but a guy I know that works on movies says he fired 14 shots.

Edit: I forgot to mention. You should really make sure your DM has had a look at the WBL chart. 750 gold is quite a big chunk of the recommended 900 for a 2nd level character.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

No matter what character I've created, 95% of the time Im using a wand. Either via UMD, or a spellcaster dip, wands are an expensive, but VERY useful piece of adventurers gear.

In fact, my next character build is dependent on wands, and it is likely a sub par choice. Rogue... I mean... WIZARD. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225914)

You can't tell me thats a broken idea, or not fun.

I probably wouldn't play if i weren't allowed wands. They certainly aren't broken, there is no reason to ban them. If you are banning spell trigger items that can only be level 4 spells or less, then you ought to ban scrolls. And wizards too, cos they have spells.

[Urpriest]

At level 2 your average wealth per person will be around 900gp. Even the cheapest wands are most of that, and it's very unlikely you'll have that much of your wealth as just one thing. So if it's come up yet then there's more odd that you/your DM is doing than you're telling us.

[Peonofearth]

At level 2 your average wealth per person will be around 900gp. Even the cheapest wands are most of that, and it's very unlikely you'll have that much of your wealth as just one thing. So if it's come up yet then there's more odd that you/your DM is doing than you're telling us.
We've obtained that much gold per person before, with a succesful crawl or whatnot. A good majority of our gold typically goes into buying potions, which, as you know, weigh a lot. I feel like a Wand would be a cost effective version of a bunch of potions. We'd keep it on our healer, and use it to heal up in between fights. That frees up some more healing spells to use while in combat, or even as a better option, not use healing spells in combat at all.
He's pretty fickle with item rewards, is the thing. That's one thing that urks me. We can fight a nest full of spiders, nearly wipe, and only get a minor monitary award upon return to the town. He's just...Heavily realistic I suppose.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

We've obtained that much gold per person before, with a succesful crawl or whatnot. A good majority of our gold typically goes into buying potions, which, as you know, weigh a lot. I feel like a Wand would be a cost effective version of a bunch of potions. We'd keep it on our healer, and use it to heal up in between fights. That frees up some more healing spells to use while in combat, or even as a better option, not use healing spells in combat at all.
He's pretty fickle with item rewards, is the thing. That's one thing that urks me. We can fight a nest full of spiders, nearly wipe, and only get a minor monitary award upon return to the town. He's just...Heavily realistic I suppose.

Yep... wands are superior to potions, especially potions that you use often. People jsut get in the mindest of potion chugging... videogames and whatnot. I blame NetHack.

In any case, the best wands for a low level party are: Lesser Vigor and Cure Light Wounds. Lesser Vigor for out of combat healing, CLW for instant, in combat healing.

If playing 3.5, these are the wands I usually get ASAP: acid Splash, Lesser Vigor, Swift Invisibility, Darkvision, True Strike, Invisibility, Imp. Invisibility (if a rogue). This choices can change depending on a given build.

Most anything else I get as a scroll.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, in general, the most important item that the whole PARTY chips in for is a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. It might even be most group's FIRST magic item! Unless it is a Wand of Lesser Vigor... ask him what his problems are with the group going for one of those for out of combat healing, rather than potions...

Anyway, YOU should maybe read this (its in one of the replies):

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1121

[Peonofearth]

Well, in general, the most important item that the whole PARTY chips in for is a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. It might even be most group's FIRST magic item! Unless it is a Wand of Lesser Vigor... ask him what his problems are with the group going for one of those for out of combat healing, rather than potions...

Anyway, YOU should maybe read this (its in one of the replies):

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1121

Thank you! This is definitely something I'm going to show my DM. We're definitely potion chuggers, and I've never liked that fact. This isn't Baldur's Gate : Dark Alliance, after all. Nor is it Diablo. Hopefully this will finally persuade him to let us use wands. Also, this is a nifty post altogether! Thanks much guys = )

[Aron Times]

Level 2 in two years of face-to-face roleplaying? That's far, far slower than PbP, which is one of the slowest forms of roleplaying.

And none of you have complained about the glacial pace of character advancement?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Level 2 in two years of face-to-face roleplaying? That's far, far slower than PbP, which is one of the slowest forms of roleplaying.

And none of you have complained about the glacial pace of character advancement?

eh, its their group. They can advance in levels as fast or as slowly as they like... They are roleplaying, thats the important part, so whatever. I ran a game where, after 2 years of gaming all day once or twice a week, the party had advanced four levels. Definitely slower than usual, but as a DM, when I could see them getting itchy at their current level, I knew it was about time.

Point is, let them level however they please. :smallwink:

[Peonofearth]

eh, its their group. They can advance in levels as fast or as slowly as they like... They are roleplaying, thats the important part, so whatever. I ran a game where, after 2 years of gaming all day once or twice a week, the party had advanced four levels. Definitely slower than usual, but as a DM, when I could see them getting itchy at their current level, I knew it was about time.

Point is, let them level however they please. :smallwink:

We also can basically only play during the summer and winter breaks, since we go to different schools. So it's not constant play (I wish), but we do play often during the breaks. We've run higher level campaigns, but rarely with level advancement. We've just started doing sandbox style play, and I can say, while it isn't as story driven, I'm enjoying it.
The reason we level so slowly isn't really pacing....It's more due to characters dying. We've definitely had multiple party wipes. My Halfling spellthief is one of the few of the original party left alive, and he's still just above level 2. I'm leaving him alone for a bit so just as to preserve his livelyhood for a little bit longer :smallsigh:

[Reprimand]

Solution: Get a new DM. Seriously. You have a DM who hates his players. He needs to have absolute control and cannot stand for any player character being "powerful" or otherwise able to do something nifty. He needs to keep your characters as pathetic weaklings so he can lord over how he can do anything he wants and your characters can't stop him unless he graciously allows you to defeat the bad guys.

I second this, I think a DM that refuses to even let you use core resources is really not a great DM.

[Aron Times]

We also can basically only play during the summer and winter breaks, since we go to different schools. So it's not constant play (I wish), but we do play often during the breaks. We've run higher level campaigns, but rarely with level advancement. We've just started doing sandbox style play, and I can say, while it isn't as story driven, I'm enjoying it.
The reason we level so slowly isn't really pacing....It's more due to characters dying. We've definitely had multiple party wipes. My Halfling spellthief is one of the few of the original party left alive, and he's still just above level 2. I'm leaving him alone for a bit so just as to preserve his livelyhood for a little bit longer :smallsigh:
If the player characters keep dying, then something is wrong with this game. Character death is not meant to be common, and should have a meaningful effect on the plot if it ever happens.

What this sounds like is that you have a Killer DM™. One of the biggest problems of having a Killer DM™ is that the players become risk-averse to the point that it hurts the plot, e.g. you're afraid of playing your spellthief because you're afraid that he might die. Another problem is that players have less incentive to flesh out and roleplay their characters because it might all be for nothing.

Each character death wastes what little time you have on your school breaks on constant character creation. You could experience more of the game if your characters didn't die so often. The DM is not supposed to play against the players; his role is that of an impartial referee/storyteller.

I'll let the more experienced members of the Playground elaborate on how Killer DMing™ is bad for the game.

[killem2]

haven't gotten over level 2 after at least 2 sessions.

What a joke of a dm. I would leave.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

haven't gotten over level 2 after at least 2 sessions.

What a joke of a dm. I would leave.

Seriously, I don't get people that say "you MUST have leveled up after this much time, or the game sucks".

Its THEIR game. you can't tell them how to play it, or that the DM is a joke. For all you know, the DM has some of the best damn storytelling skills ever. Which he probably does, to keep a party entertained without leveling up.

In any case: Their game, don't tell them how to play it. There aren't any Game Police, and you aren't one of them.

[Flickerdart]

3.5 is built on the premise that levels are gained throughout the course of gaming. It is fair for players to expect to gain some levels at some point. If the DM is not interested in running a game where character growth is a thing, then another system would be far more suitable.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

3.5 is built on the premise that levels are gained throughout the course of gaming. It is fair for players to expect to gain some levels at some point. If the DM is not interested in running a game where character growth is a thing, then another system would be far more suitable.

agreed, but the speed at which those levels are gained is not set. a level every 13.3 encounters isn't set in stone. Character growth is not just measured in levels, but also in role-playing. no matter how many levels you have, a poorly played character will be as two dimensional at level 1 as at level 20. If their group is happy with slow leveling, that is their choice. Since they haven't stopped playing with this DM, they must be happy enough. Ergo, slow leveling isn't a problem (or enough of a problem) to warrant quitting. And it still isn't our place to tell them how to run their game.

In any case, we are derailing this thread.

[killem2]

Seriously, I don't get people that say "you MUST have leveled up after this much time, or the game sucks".

Its THEIR game. you can't tell them how to play it, or that the DM is a joke. For all you know, the DM has some of the best damn storytelling skills ever. Which he probably does, to keep a party entertained without leveling up.

In any case: Their game, don't tell them how to play it. There aren't any Game Police, and you aren't one of them.



I will tell anyone, anytime, anything I damn well please.

Obviously, this OP is frustrated, and if he enjoyed his progression so damn much he wouldn't be on a message board asking for outside advice on how to change this game, NOR would they have even bothered to bring up the FACT..

I'll repeat it..

THE FACT...

That they are still only level 2. This, is ridiculous. At D&D's core, it is still a game. No one says you have breeze through levels 1-15 in 2 sessions, but you don't even start to really see new abilities, and aspects of your characters until around level 4. in some cases, level 3.

So yes, I'd have to say, that DM is worthless, doesn't know what he's doing, and I don't care if it was Stephen King (one of my favorite authors), telling the story. I'm not 5, this isn't the library time, and I'm sitting around the Librarian with my jaw dropped in awe, wondering what will happen to clifford if he doesn't put out the fire in the house.

At some progression, its time to experience something new, and as DM, who has just started, I would find it incredible boring for me, and my group if I forced them to stay stagnant for however long its been. (He mentions 2 years but I don't know if that's the same session.)

Obviously he doesn't have that great storytelling skills, if you can't be bothered to let your characters level up. Everything gets more complex as you level up..

Stats.

Spells.

Equipment.

Dungeons.

Cities.

Adventures.

Story telling.

So yeah, pardon me, if I think this DM is a waste of time, and is just backpeddling out as an excuse so he/she doesn't have to be accountable to write more with thier "best damn storytelling skills ever".

There's more to writing, when you are dealing with a beast with tentacle eyes (Beholders) and Elder Dragons, than there is when some scrubby Orc or Goblin.

Though, with how this DM so generously bends the CORE rule book, I'm sure you gain 1 exp for all monsters and they are probably fighting nerfed versions of dragons at this point. Which if that is so, then its an exercise in futility, and just an excuse for the DM to show how important they think they are, and they attempt to reverse engineer the entire core rule book.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

stuff, much of which is valid

You are arguing with someone who agrees with you on all points, EXCEPT telling someone how to play their game.
And yeah, Stephen King is great, I thought his stuff was good until I read The Dark Tower series, at which my opinion of him blossomed.

Point is, we are derailing the thread with a discussion that is largely irrelevant to the main topic: How to deal with a DM not allowing wands. The rate of leveling and exp. gained is irrelevant to wands, and convincing the storyteller to let you use them.