Immortals handbook

[motoko's ghost]

I recently heard that this is a better version of the deities and demigods sourcebook, however when I read it I found several bits very confusing, namely;

Templates(are they automatically assumed to have been applied to the outsiders of certain HD, or are you supposed to add them to outsiders of certain HD):smallfrown:
Quintessence(how exactly do you gain quintessence from your inherent power/killin' stuff/having worshippers):smalleek:
How do you get worshippers?:smallconfused:

I'm going to have one of the powerful outsiders in my campaign ascend to deity status and this seems like the better system for doing so.:smallsmile:

P.S if they had had a cohort that had bound her soul to her centuries ago when she was just a low-epic outsider and underwent several spells/rituals to merge their mind and souls more completely and at the time of ascension she's CR25+ what happens when the deity ascends?

[Lateral]

That book is a joke. Really, it kind of is. I believe Glyphstone had a great quote on it, but I can't find it.

[motoko's ghost]

I know the higher level stuff is borked, but the whole thing? :frown:

[Big Fau]

That book is a joke. Really, it kind of is. I believe Glyphstone had a great quote on it, but I can't find it.

Something about monkeys and typewriters.

[Volthawk]

I know the higher level stuff is borked, but the whole thing? :frown:

Yup. Look, at the kind of scales it deals with, the game has gone beyond broken and reached an insane mess with no logic, reason, or consistency, and only brings confusion, despair and pain to those who try to use it.

[Flickerdart]

And yet the Neutronium Golem can be defeated by a 20th level spellcaster.

[Lateral]

Something about monkeys and typewriters.

Ah, yes. I believe it was along these lines:

The Immortals Handbook is not rules. It is the result of putting boxing gloves on an epileptic monkey and letting it pound on a number pad for a few hours, then editing the typos and adding names to stuff.

[Volthawk]

And yet the Neutronium Golem can be defeated by a 20th level spellcaster.

Exactly. No logic, consistency or reason.

[Calanon]

And yet the Neutronium Golem can be defeated by a 20th level spellcaster.

I'm scared to ask how... But i know it features an ass load of no SR spells that cannot be stopped or using a Solar army or something that no DM in there right mind would allow... but How do you kill a Neutronium Golem? :smallconfused:

[SaintRidley]

I think the only thing I would ever use that book for is to hold the threat of a demilich becoming an Akalich up there as a neat plot hook.

[Soren Hero]

I'm scared to ask how... But i know it features an ass load of no SR spells that cannot be stopped or using a Solar army or something that no DM in there right mind would allow... but How do you kill a Neutronium Golem? :smallconfused:

i find it ironic that you asked this in the topic called "immortals handbook"m because the this same question is in an archived topic from this same forum called the Immortal's Handbook...available at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-122986.html

the answer is at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-159082.html

[The Glyphstone]

My presence in this thread is already redundant.

[Calanon]

i find it ironic that you asked this in the topic called "immortals handbook"m because the this same question is in an archived topic from this same forum called the Immortal's Handbook...available at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-122986.html

the answer is at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-159082.html

Omg... you kill it with a spell-within a spell... SPELLCEPTION! coming to a theater near you

I like that trick... is there anything else that can whip the floor with these so called "Broken Abominations"?

[Gavinfoxx]

God, has anyone come up with a compilation of the best infinite damage loops?

[motoko's ghost]

Yup. Look, at the kind of scales it deals with, the game has gone beyond broken and reached an insane mess with no logic, reason, or consistency, and only brings confusion, despair and pain to those who try to use it.
Bugger. I wanted to make my outsider a deity but the deities and demigods approach did virtually nothing and made my head hurt.

[DoctorGlock]

Bugger. I wanted to make my outsider a deity but the deities and demigods approach did virtually nothing and made my head hurt.

Frankly the best way to make deities is to not bother with ranks or anything. At least no ranks above 1 and leave out alter reality. Just use a bunch of class levels and call them gods. It's what I've been doing for my epic game. Elder evils and rank 0 work fine without unbalancing anything or inducing headaches, use that for lesser gods and mythical bringers of ragnarok. Rank 1 is for greater gods, ban alter reality and go to town, crank out some flavorful unique SDAs. Many things are just a leap of fluff rather than crunch, try not to fuse them completely and you'll be fine.

The deities and demigods approach will net you:
Rank 0-
Huge AC boost
Tons of Immunities
Immortality

Rank 1-
More Immunities
A lump of SLAs
SDA

[motoko's ghost]

Yeah, but the only problem was that she had most of the divine immunities anyway as well as being immortal, I was mainly planning on using the immortals handbook to help make her growing church.

[DoctorGlock]

Yeah, but the only problem was that she had most of the divine immunities anyway as well as being immortal, I was mainly planning on using the immortals handbook to help make her growing church.

How were you going to pull it off? I am willing to bet it can be done without that horrible book.

[Thurbane]

For a minute, I thought this thread was going to be about that awful disappointing movie...

[motoko's ghost]

How were you going to pull it off? I am willing to bet it can be done without that horrible book.
Are you asking how was she going to ascend or how was I going to change her stat blocks for the deityhood?

[DoctorGlock]

For a minute, I thought this thread was going to be about that awful disappointing movie...

Nope, just an awful disappointing implementation of a nice idea.

Some of the fluff in Ascension was good. The basis in various theology was cool. Some of the monsters were pretty cool. An astral serpent with pandimensional reach? Living wormholes? That was pretty much the highlight of the book.

But the mechanics... dear lord. Many 0s does not a game make. And who is honestly going to play a game till level 200,000? Everything could have been done on a 20-40 level scale and would have worked just fine.

Not just the scale, but the grasp of the rules... give a CR 120 monster CL 240 casting! Give a CR 45 monster no casting! Yuck.


Are you asking how was she going to ascend or how was I going to change her stat blocks for the deityhood?

Both really. Enough templating and class abilities and rank is redundant.

[motoko's ghost]

Basically shes a advanced templated succubus with lvs in fiend of possession and fiend of corruption who became the demon lord of a plane, but through a series of events too long for me to write out eventually became redeemed to CN, and set up shop as a sort of near-deity regarding the portfolio of freedom,chaos and experiences(pleasure,pain,etc). Her cult(freed slaves,revolutionaries and hedonists) combined with herabsorbing several other being was going to make her a demi to lesser deity.

I didn't actually know how I was going to change her stat blocks to reflect this, which is why I was looking at the immortals handbook.

[DoctorGlock]

Basically shes a advanced templated succubus with lvs in fiend of possession and fiend of corruption who became the demon lord of a plane, but through a series of events too long for me to write out eventually became redeemed to CN, and set up shop as a sort of near-deity regarding the portfolio of freedom,chaos and experiences(pleasure,pain,etc). Her cult(freed slaves,revolutionaries and hedonists) combined with herabsorbing several other being was going to make her a demi to lesser deity.

I didn't actually know how I was going to change her stat blocks to reflect this, which is why I was looking at the immortals handbook.

Really she just fulfills a role, she does not need rank to do that. The stat changes are entirely metagame and have no bearing on "divinity" an in game construct. Divinity however has major connotations and expectations.

1: Power- You can traverse space, possibly time and alter reality
2: Control over a dimense
3: Worshipers (depending on what divinity means in your setting)
4: A sense of inevitability- this is all description, but a touch of invulnerability (permanent emanation AMF, schism manifesting timeless body) can help a bit

Her innate abilities do most of it already. She a PC or NPC? Ardents are a great class to imitate portfolios with and would be a non associated class so only +1 CR per 2 levels, practiced manifester pumps that fast. They can traverse time and space and grab reality revision. Stick on supernatural transformation and she can spam alter reality. Give her a demiplane. Psionic Genesis, done. Needs followers? Leadership, grab a bunch of mini clerics to spread the word. The rest is all world description.

If you are really hung up on rank, give her rank 0. It gives all the other immunities and a huge AC boost. But divinity really comes down to showing the players what she is rather than her stat sheet.

In my game Susano-O-Mikoto is just an energy mantle dominant ideal ardent. Izanami is just a reflavored solar with a darker spell selection and better feats. Nidhogg is an advanced linnorm with rank 0 and elder evil traits for the immunities. But the players do not know. They just hear a description and say "we're in deep, aint we?" and after the session they can see the sheets if they have to.

TL;DR, tell players "this is a god", it's powerful enough that rank is redundant and give the players the ability to feel epic if they trash it anyway.

[motoko's ghost]

Shes a DMPC, usually just existed to run ridiculous plots in the background, until she got redeemed.

Dont actually use non-associated class mechanic, purely because overtly vague and easily abused(see stone giant wizard).

Ok she's got a plane(nicked it off adimarchus),she strong enough to be unbeatable for a CR20 party(campaigns usually end there for the group, just because epic gets...difficult to manage)

Shes got several loose cults worshipping her(she freed some slaves, helped some revolutionaries and as a succubus she has hedonists hanging off her)

So possibly adding DR0 and/or some more cool abilities(already has immunity to mind-effects and divinations as well as the possession/corruption class level stuff)

[DoctorGlock]

Shes a DMPC, usually just existed to run ridiculous plots in the background, until she got redeemed.

Ok she's got a plane(nicked it off adimarchus),she strong enough to be unbeatable for a CR20 party(campaigns usually end there for the group, just because epic gets...difficult to manage)

Eh, never underestimate a lvl 20 party. My parties are finding ways to break continents by level 15. Unless she has fullcasting (or is possessing someone who does), any confrontation is a recipe for roflstomp.

DMPC? As in you have a character who regularly interacts with the party and takes a role alongside them...but is infinitely stronger? Because that's never a good idea. If she's off scene then she is an NPC.

Otherwise she already fulfills the role and needs no fancy rank or anything. Either she needs stats because she will be an enemy, in which case omnipotence is bad, or she needs stats to be a team member, in which case omnipotence is worse, or she will not interact in any way that needs stats and don't bother wasting time with them.

[motoko's ghost]

Eh, never underestimate a lvl 20 party. My parties are finding ways to break continents by level 15. Unless she has fullcasting (or is possessing someone who does), any confrontation is a recipe for roflstomp.

DMPC? As in you have a character who regularly interacts with the party and takes a role alongside them...but is infinitely stronger? Because that's never a good idea. If she's off scene then she is an NPC.

Otherwise she already fulfills the role and needs no fancy rank or anything. Either she needs stats because she will be an enemy, in which case omnipotence is bad, or she needs stats to be a team member, in which case omnipotence is worse, or she will not interact in any way that needs stats and don't bother wasting time with them.


With them,against them whatever furthers her own goals, almost always through intermediaries and forcing them to jump through hoops to get her to give them the slightest bit of help if she doesn't feel like it. I meant DMPC as shes built like a PC(sensible equipment/build and all) but I'm the one using her.

She already proven she can take on a lv20 party easily, after the last adventuring group got destroyed in about 3 rounds, and most of that was because she was holding back.:smallcool:

In all seriousness though she can basically do all that I just wanted to know as there will always ALWAYS be someone who attacks or an uber-enemy and It just makes it easier if I have stats for her(in my campaign the gods are basically just really powerful beings, not the anthromorphic personifications of the fundamental forces underlying reality itself.

[DoctorGlock]

With them,against them whatever furthers her own goals, almost always through intermediaries and forcing them to jump through hoops to get her to give them the slightest bit of help if she doesn't feel like it. I meant DMPC as shes built like a PC(sensible equipment/build and all) but I'm the one using her.

She already proven she can take on a lv20 party easily, after the last adventuring group got destroyed in about 3 rounds, and most of that was because she was holding back.:smallcool:

In all seriousness though she can basically do all that I just wanted to know as there will always ALWAYS be someone who attacks or an uber-enemy and It just makes it easier if I have stats for her(in my campaign the gods are basically just really powerful beings, not the anthromorphic personifications of the fundamental forces underlying reality itself.

She is already that, meaning she's finished as is. She fulfills the role of a god as defined by your setting. Both deities and demigods and immortals handbook just makes things miserable when added.

I am interested in knowing what her build and levels are and what the party composition is. Succubi have never been serious threats in my games.

[motoko's ghost]

She uses some third-party material; but is basically a redeemed demon lord vecna-blooded war aspect advanced succubus fiend of possession6/fiend of corruption6. with epic leadership and some of the summon enhancing feats.

yeah...she was originally just low20s,but she just kept evolving over the course of the campaign, it's slightly ridiculous.

Shes very fond of using her posession ability to take control of someone when theyre asleep(she NEVER fights fair EVER) then summoning balors into the camp, then playing along for a couple of rounds while she sets up a backstab with her SLAs, even if they kill the body shes inhabiting, she emerges completely unharmed,against a depleted party, whom she then tries to possess again.

[DoctorGlock]

She uses some third-party material; but is basically a redeemed demon lord vecna-blooded war aspect advanced succubus fiend of possession6/fiend of corruption6. with epic leadership and some of the summon enhancing feats.

yeah...she was originally just low20s,but she just kept evolving over the course of the campaign, it's slightly ridiculous.

Shes very fond of using her posession ability to take control of someone when theyre asleep(she NEVER fights fair EVER) then summoning balors into the camp, then playing along for a couple of rounds while she sets up a backstab with her SLAs, even if they kill the body shes inhabiting, she emerges completely unharmed,against a depleted party, whom she then tries to possess again.


Demon Lord? Is that from Frank and Ks Tome stuff? The one that ends up with free wishes? But yeah, epic leadership is nasty, I can see her taking out a ECL 20 party with mega minions. Hmmmmm, I do want to suggest swapping demon levels out for Ur-Priest so she can draw divine spells from herself. Most "I am a God!" types run that way.

[motoko's ghost]

Actually the dragon magazine one, the one that gives like 20 at will SLAs,epic DR,SR30+ and an average of +4 to all stats.

Her minion is a half-fiend grey elf wizard/ur-priest/mystic theurge/archmage(only has 20lvs), who also serves as her lover

I like the ur-priest idea, I might gestalt her with some ur-priest lvs

The war aspect and vecna-blooded are from when she was one of vecna's generals(black ops sort of stuff), however she left his service shortly after becoming a demon lord, almost died at the hands an alaex leading high level lich wizards and demon rogues riding chauchmers after her.

[DoctorGlock]

Actually the dragon magazine one, the one that gives like 20 at will SLAs,epic DR,SR30+ and an average of +4 to all stats.

Her minion is a half-fiend grey elf wizard/ur-priest/mystic theurge/archmage(only has 20lvs), who also serves as her lover

I like the ur-priest idea, I might gestalt her with some ur-priest lvs

Which dragon mag? I want to see this myself, I am always looking to make high level outsiders.

Frankly never touched gestalt myself. Ur Priest would certainly count as non associated though... My evil senses are tingling (I am often asked to justify my monsters post session, so I always keep them built to the same standards the PCs are limited by, using non associated is my dirty trick for legally buffing monsters)

[motoko's ghost]

The final one(#359).

I am aware they made more after it but it was no longer physically published and was for 4th edition and was made by a completely different set of people.:smallfrown:

now i'm sad

[DoctorGlock]

Nice, I have that one, knew it sounded familiar...

At will shapechange, ouch, astral projection, ouch, plane shift, greater port- no escape, and any 2 more in theme... jeez,only +2 CR for what can be used to justify free wishes/miracles. The various fiend of classes i think are stated to be associated so +14 CR on the base 7. add in the ur priest for a CR 26 demon lord with CL 22 SLAs and full divine casting and potential DMM use. Proceed to cackle insanely. Bonus points if you are in public.

[motoko's ghost]

remember its only roughly +2 and its only meant to be used for epic level encounters, i.e the things that either have half of them already or are dead because of the things that do, also its for the demon lords, OF COURSE it's going to be strong.

[DoctorGlock]

remember its only roughly +2 and its only meant to be used for epic level encounters, i.e the things that either have half of them already or are dead because of the things that do, also its for the demon lords, OF COURSE it's going to be strong.

Yeah, just think it's the most bang for the buck i've seen in 3.5. It's certainly good for a final boss sub epic and a very rough fight low epic.

[motoko's ghost]

The theme for the last issue was going out with a bang.
It is an amazing template though, it means my semi-homebrew demon lords are huge final battles taking up a whole 2+hr long gameplay session(though that one was because it had a huge array of additional defenses, bit of a "mighty glacier")

Edit:Doctor Glock, what if instead of replacing the possession levels, She simply possess her ur-priest cohort and uses a spell to permanently lock them together into one form with 2 semi-distinct minds, she'd get ur-priest casting and I don't have to worry about what happens to the cohort of a being ascending to divininty.