A very odd question concerning the PrC Sand Shaper

[Morbis Meh]

Hello Playgrounders and keepers of obscure knowledge!

I come to you with an odd request: I have a friend that absolutely wants to take the Sand Shaper PrC but he wants to enter it in a very unique way. He wants to some how enter it with a druid but as well all know Druid's cast divine magic thus not qualifying. So I was wondering: Is there a way to make Druid spells count as Arcane OR is there an arcane class that has access to the Druid spell list. As for why he wants to do this I have no clue but he offered me the challenge since my knowledge of the system is greater than his. The only thing that comes to mind that may be similar is a WuJen but I haven't really looked at their spell list...

Thank you for all of your help you peeps are the best!

[SirFredgar]

Well, I'd have to look at the sand Shaper requirements again, but if he goes human he might be able to qualify for the Southern Magician feat, and can then cast arcane spells as divine or vice versa. Has to be human, but a pretty straight forward method.


Edit:

I apologize, the requirement is read "Arcane Caster Level 5th", which some say according to the FAQ means something more like "Arcane Caster, 5th Level.".... if you go by that interpretation, then he'd need to squeeze in 5 actual arcane casting levels.

[Flickerdart]

I apologize, the requirement is read "Arcane Caster Level 5th", which some say according to the FAQ means something more like "Arcane Caster, 5th Level.".... if you go by that interpretation, then he'd need to squeeze in 5 actual arcane casting levels.
Everything about what you just said is wrong. "Caster level" is a specific game term, and "arcane" is a kind of caster level. If the FAQ says otherwise, the FAQ is wrong (as we're all aware it is quite often). A dip in Wizard or something, plus Practiced Spellcaster, is enough to get an arcane caster level of 5.

[SirFredgar]

Everything about what you just said is wrong. "Caster level" is a specific game term, and "arcane" is a kind of caster level. If the FAQ says otherwise, the FAQ is wrong (as we're all aware it is quite often). A dip in Wizard or something, plus Practiced Spellcaster, is enough to get an arcane caster level of 5.

Hmmm, while I haven't said I agree with the ruling, it does exist. The tearm "wrong" just seems so finite on an issue that is open to interpratation. It also specifically applys to practiced spellcaster. Weither or not your DM accepts Wizard's FAQs at their table is another story.

Please see here:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation?post_id =338388114#338388114

And here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

Edit: A sentance was dropped. Readded

[Flickerdart]

Hmmm, while I haven't said I agree with the ruling, it does exist. The tearm "wrong" just seems so finite on an issue that is open to interpratation. It also specifically applys to practiced spellcaster. Weither or not your DM accepts Wizard's FAQs at their table is another story.

Please see here:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation?post_id =338388114#338388114

And here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

Edit: A sentance was dropped. Readded
"Spellcaster level 5" is not the same as "arcane caster level 5", and the FAQ does not pretend this to be the case. There is no room for argument here.

[SirFredgar]

"Spellcaster level 5" is not the same as "arcane caster level 5", and the FAQ does not pretend this to be the case. There is no room for argument here.

Well, Spells come into multiple types do they not? Arcane or Divine? I would say it's not at all unreasonable to see Arcane Caster Level 5th as Spellcaster Level 5th. It's just clarifying what type of caster you need 5 levels in. Also note the distrinctive th on both the example in the post and the requirement on Sand Shaper.

[Flickerdart]

It is completely unreasonable, because they mean different things. Your very own FAQ quote makes the distinction between a 5th level Paladin's spellcaster level (5) and caster level (2).

[Morbis Meh]

....Can we please keep this discussion on track....

[Fax Celestis]

Hmmm, while I haven't said I agree with the ruling, it does exist. The tearm "wrong" just seems so finite on an issue that is open to interpratation. It also specifically applys to practiced spellcaster. Weither or not your DM accepts Wizard's FAQs at their table is another story.

Please see here:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation?post_id =338388114#338388114

And here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

Edit: A sentance was dropped. Readded

It is not 'open to interpretation'.

Your spellcaster level is "levels in classes that provide spells".

Your arcane caster level is generally "levels in classes that provide arcane spells", but in cases like the spellthief, hexblade, paladin, and ranger, your caster level is not always equal to your spellcaster level.

[SirFredgar]

It is completely unreasonable, because they mean different things. Your very own FAQ quote makes the distinction between a 5th level Paladin's spellcaster level (5) and caster level (2).

That is exactly my point. According to Wizards there is a difference between having a Caster Level, and having levels in a Caster class. The PrC requirement, with only one slight change ("Spellcaster" to "Arcane Caster"), is formatted exactly the same as my FAQ post. That means that practiced spellcaster isn't quite as difinitative an entry for the OP, and should be relegated to a DM call.... because there very much is an argument here, and has been in the past.

[Fax Celestis]

That is exactly my point. According to Wizards there is a difference between having a Caster Level, and having levels in a Caster class.

Yes, because your arcane caster level does not always equal your levels in an arcane spellcasting class.

[Morbis Meh]

Can you argue over this point in another thread please....

[Flickerdart]

That is exactly my point. According to Wizards there is a difference between having a Caster Level, and having levels in a Caster class. The PrC requirement, with only one slight change ("Spellcaster" to "Arcane Caster"), is formatted exactly the same as my FAQ post. That means that practiced spellcaster isn't quite as difinitative an entry for the OP, and should be relegated to a DM call.... because there very much is an argument here, and has been in the past.
If you replace "spellcaster" with "arcane caster", then your equation becomes ""arcane caster level" is not the same as "arcane caster level"".

[Fax Celestis]

Can you argue over this point in another thread please....

There are a number of ways to cast arcane spells as divine spells and vice versa, but there is no way I know of to count divine caster levels as arcane caster levels.

[Morbis Meh]

There are a number of ways to cast arcane spells as divine spells and vice versa, but there is no way I know of to count divine caster levels as arcane caster levels.

That's what I thought which leads me to my second question: are there any arcane classes that gain access to the druid spell list?

[Fax Celestis]

No? Rainbow Servant gets you access to the cleric list, which is close but no cigar.

[Morbis Meh]

I really didn't think so and I know about rainbow servant... maybe I can convince him to go Wu jen, he wants to make Garra from Naruto... btw Fax, I really like your avatar

[Fax Celestis]

Thanks. Ililani is sort of my mascot. Or patron. Or something.

[Darrin]

I think you can qualify with two feats:

Magical Training (FRCS) gives you some arcane cantrips and a caster level of 1.
Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane) gives you +4 caster levels.

...but the class only advances arcane spellcasting. Probably easier to just refluff it as a divine class.

[Psyren]

Show him Walker in the Wastes instead. It's designed for Druid entry and he becomes a lich with multiple phylacteries at the capstone.

[IdleMuse]

IIRC Savage Bard (from Unearthed Arcana) has a fairly druidic spell list. Summon Nature's Ally, at least, and some weather stuff. You can combine that with the later Bard ACF on p58 which switches out Bardic Music for some of the other (non-wildshape) druid abilities for what is essentially an Arcane Druid with slower, worse, spell progression, and no wildshaping. Yeah... I wouldn't suggest this except in a low-op game with no T1 or T2 casters.

In a higher-op game, I'd probably go Wu Jen (probably the most naturey-feeling full arcane caster) with a Wild Cohort.

[Darrin]

Another option:

Bard 2/Druid 4/Sand Shaper 1/Arcane Hierophant 10
Use Practiced Spellcaster to get into Sand Shaper, then Versatile Spellcaster or Sanctum Spell to get into AH.

Based on the wording of Desert Insight, it sounds like the spells are added to all your spell lists: "you can prepare these spells like any other spell to which you have access."

You lose out on all the other Sand Shaper features, though.

[Daftendirekt]

Show him Walker in the Wastes instead. It's designed for Druid entry and he becomes a lich with multiple phylacteries at the capstone.

Right, except Walker in the Waste in no way mimics Gaara's abilities. As OP said, player wants to make Gaara, and that means Sand Shaper.

Alternately, OP, take a look at this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6002). Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6002.msg198323#msg198323) the post for Gaara specifically. Most of the Naruto characters' abilities are most easily mimicked with psionics. Just refluff.

[Psyren]

Right, except Walker in the Waste in no way mimics Gaara's abilities. As OP said, player wants to make Gaara, and that means Sand Shaper.

I missed that, since he neglected to mention it in the opening post and I was skipping the ridiculous caster level argument. (And yes, Fredgar is wrong.)

[SirFredgar]

I missed that, since he neglected to mention it in the opening post and I was skipping the ridiculous caster level argument. (And yes, Fredgar is wrong.)

Thanks for that. Issue was resolved here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226049).

[DonutBoy12321]

4 levels of Prestige Paladin and the Sword of the Arcane Order feat give you arcane spells in Divine slots.

[ScrambledBrains]

There is a homebrew class here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sandbender_(3.5e_Class)) that replicates the majority of Gaara's abilities. A convincing of your DM so your friend can use it will be necessary, but that may be easier for you than finding a way to make divine spells considered arcane. :smallsmile: