Character reoptimization: Karsite sorcerer

[Mystify]

One thing I like doing is taking a horribly ineffective character concept, then optimizing it to usefulness. It may not end up in the annals of the best characters ever designed, but they are capable of pulling their weight in a typical D&D party. It is something I do to help counteract my tendency to powergame. I get to poke around and tweak a character around, and my character doesn't explode the campaign. Everyone wins. One rule I follow during these: you can't undo the original stipulation. If you are making a blind character, you can't just give them blindsight and continue on.

This is probably my most extreme attempt yet. A Karsite sorcerer. Karsites are never sorcerers, and with good reason: They can't cast spells. Period.

So, here is my attempt to make a useable character out of this. I will be a sorcerer who cannot cast spells.

To start, we must determine what precisely this limitation means.
" Spellcasting Inability: Karsites cannot cast arcane or
divine spells, even if they take levels in a class that grants
spellcasting ability. They can use spell-like abilities, psionic
powers, and magic items normally."

It says you cannot cast the spells. It does not say you can't learn spells or have a spell list. It also says they can use magic items. I see 2 main things I will focus on from this: spell-like abilities and casting from items.

Additionally, reading into the item creation rules, you don't actually cast a spell while making the items. You must know it, but it is not directly cast. So, we can still utilize item creation if we so desire.

Now, lets look at sorcerer variants. a base sorcerer gets a familiar, spells, and thats it. So, we also have a familiar to play with. First, we'll look at battle caster. It boosts your hit dice to d8s, your BaB to cleric's, and gives you weapon proficiency and light armor(which you can cast in). the trade off is one less spell known and spell slot of every spell level. Well, thats an easy tradeoff, we'll take battle sorcerer.

There is also the alternative class feature of stalwart sorcerer, which we will take at level 1. this sacrifices a spell known of the highest slot, but gives +2hp/sorcerer level, a martial weapon proficiency, and weapon focus with that weapon.

This combo would normally leave you 2 levels behind a normal sorcerer for learning any spells of your highest level. However, we don't care about that, so now we have d8 HD and +2 hp/level(which is about equal to a d12 on average), can wear armour, are proficient with 2 weapons, and have a weapon focus. Not a bad start.

It is also possible to trade the familiar for a 1/2 level animal companion. This would be as good as a ranger's companion, so its worth considering, depending if we find anything clever to do with a familiar. We could also trade it for a 1/day spell-like ability draconic ray.

So, lets see about spell-like abilities. Reserve feats would be the way to go, except they actually specify that you must have the ability to cast the spells, which we lack.
One possibilty is silent spell, still -> innate spell. That will give us a spell 3x/day as a spell-like ability. You have to permamently devote a spell slot to it, but that is not an issue. however, we would have to choose a good spell to spend this on, or find something better.

crafting a contigent spell does not require casting the spell. So, we can add in that feat and be able to pay spell levelxcaster levelx 100gp to create contigent spells.

casting from a scroll seems a bit more gray. It frequently says it works just like casting as spell, so I'll err on the side of caution and not work with scrolls.

one possibility is using recharge staff. we will have to give up our familiar to be able to imbue a staff, then take recharge staff. This lets us spend 5 spell levels to add a charge back into a staff. So, we could get a staff with some useful spells, and recharge off of it.

The imbued staff would give us the following benefits:
light as a spell-like 3/day

This seems like a good route to take, unless we find some familiar tricks to use instead. There are also feats for imbuing the staff with spell-like abilities, but sadly they reference the ability to cast the spell.

there is also another innate spell. this one is trickier. silent, still, and quicken, and sacrifice as spell slot 8 levels higher, and get it as a spell-like ability once per round.

the familiar could be used to cast 0-2nd spells at half caster level with spell-linked familiar... but the imbued staff is better.

Since we can recharge the staff, the number of spells is useful. Normally you don't want to add multiple, since you have a fixed charge, but in our case, the more the cheaper. after the first 2 most expensive, new spells only cost 187.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster, and the level is the minimum needed. Nothing we have done hurts our caster level, so we still have full power from a staff. taking magical artisan can reduce the cost for the staff to 75%, a valuable reduction in this case.


possible prestige classses:
keeeping in line with being a sorcerer, I will restrict myself to arcance prestige classes meant for full casters.

green star adept is pretty good in this case. it only requires arcane caster level 1st, not hte ability to cast spells, so we can qualify. the spellcsating progression sucks, but we've alrady determined that is pointless. However, it has full caster level progression, so our staff would retain full punch. we then get a very nice DR 10/adamatine, AC and strength increases. This route will vastly increase our toughness.

wild mage
this one also only requires arcane caster level 1st, so we can qualify. full spellcasting progression. Random deflector can be used, scattering the target of a spell. student of chaos is useful, and immunity to confusion and insanity is nice. and possibly most useful, reckless dweomer. supernatural ability, expends a spell slot to invoke a rod of wonder effect, thus giving a means to expend spellslots on things. just not in a very controlled manner...

acolyte of the skin
requires caster level 5th. half spellcasting progression, though practiced spellcaster will take care of most of the loss. boosts AC, lets them use poison as a spell-like ability, add resistane to fire, get a supernatural ability to stun and/or shaken a target. They get a 1/day supernatural ability to fire eye beams. They can summon a fiend, get good DR. Anothe rway to boost toughness

effigy master
this one specifies that simulacrum must be on your spell lsit, but explcitly states that you don't actually have to be able to cast it. This route will let you make construct minions to do your dirty work.

not much else seems to be accessible without being able to cast spells.

So at low levels, you will pick your favorite martial weapon, put on some armor, sport barbarian-level health, and go beat on things with a stick. You will want to use wands and other magic items. You'll have good DR and SR to help you tank. at mid levels you take a staff and enchant it with whatever spells you want, and cast from it freely. Oddly enough, you can actually get more high level spells, since a level 5 spell can create a charge that you spend on a 9th level spell. you have several options, you can fight via minion, you can buff your own toughness and continue being a martial character, or try throwing out random rod of wonder effects everywhere.

You have DR 5/magic. DR.magic is normally not very useful at mid-high levels, since almost every attack is magic. But you have a special ability to make their weapons not magical when you attack them, so it should get more use than normal. you could even stick antimagic feild on your staff, since your casting is less important, then go stand next to enemies.

definitely not the most powerful character in the world, but for a sorcererer who can't cast spells, you can be pretty decent.

[Daftendirekt]

Fluff-wise, a karsite sorcerer would never happen. Karsite are a race that are born anti-magic, essentially. Sorcerers are folk born with magic in their blood, whether they want to learn it (like a wizard) or not.

[Mystify]

Fluff-wise, a karsite sorcerer would never happen. Karsite are a race that are born anti-magic, essentially. Sorcerers are folk born with magic in their blood, whether they want to learn it (like a wizard) or not.
yeah, wizard may make more sense, but it gets feats, so it wasn't as blatant an inefficiency. This isn't about making sense with the fluff, its about making a truly horrendous starting choice, and seeing what you can salvage from it.

[Zaq]

OK, so there are feats that let Sorcerers burn slots to get other effects. I forget if they tend to be (Sp) or (Su), but either way, Karsites can use 'em. I'm talking about things like the Celestial Sorcerer X and Infernal Sorcerer X feats in PHB2, the X Dragon Lineage feats in Dragon Magic, and so on. These will be helpful. The more feats we can get, the better we can pull this off.

Also, dragonpacts (also from Dragon Magic) can let you give up slots to get SLAs. Unfortunately, I can't think of a good way to cheese our way past the "must be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells" requirement on Pact-Bound Adept, so we won't be able to get more than one.

[Mystify]

OK, so there are feats that let Sorcerers burn slots to get other effects. I forget if they tend to be (Sp) or (Su), but either way, Karsites can use 'em. I'm talking about things like the Celestial Sorcerer X and Infernal Sorcerer X feats in PHB2, the X Dragon Lineage feats in Dragon Magic, and so on. These will be helpful. The more feats we can get, the better we can pull this off.

Also, dragonpacts (also from Dragon Magic) can let you give up slots to get SLAs. Unfortunately, I can't think of a good way to cheese our way past the "must be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells" requirement on Pact-Bound Adept, so we won't be able to get more than one.

ah, those are great. I was trying to find something like that, but I wasn't looking in the right places.

Infernal sorcerer howl looks like the best bet. 2d6/level of spell sacrificed is the best conversion rate I've seen. That is roughly on par with your caster level at least. Plus, its sonic, which is great. the celestial wings also looks like a winner to me.

what I really want to do is give them reserve feats, but it clearly specifies being able able to cast the spell.

the dragonpact is also clearly worthwhile.

draconic heritage may be the most verstile. Draconic breath is not sonic, but it is otherwise on par with the howl. the draconic breath has the advantage of being a breath weapon. Does it count for the breath channelling feat? This could be a lucrative path to follow if it does.

also, if you take the draconic heratiage, you become dragonblooded. this qualifies you for the 4th level racial substituation level to transform a spell into a spell-like ability. This will allow you to have the second-highest spell level with a spell-like ability 3/day.

so I'm definitely going to say draconic heritage is a winner.

we can also look at magic items powered off spell slots

bracers of realiation allow you to sacrifice aspell slot to daze an attacker for 1 round. deathguardian bracers giv DR (2x spell slot)/-. robe or retaliation allows you sacrfice a spell slot to do a 1d6/ spell level to the attacker. roe of mysterous conjuration lets you convert spells to the appropriatesummon monster 3/day. vest of the archmagi would allow you to heal yourselfs 5xlevel. arcane theive's tools lets you spend a spellslot t get +5 to disabble device or open lock. collecting all 3 peices of the blood gift lets tou heal 2xspell level as a swift action 3/day. As part of that set, the barbs of retribution lets you spend spell slots to force an enemy to reorll a saving throw that they just suceeded, with a penalty of half the spell sacrificed. the blood claw chocker, als opart of the set, would let you regain spell slots. belt of the wide earth can sacrifice a 5th level slot to use teleport twice per day; very useful. gloves of the starrry sky lets you sacrifice a psell slot to cast magic missle. goggles of the golden sun lets you sspend a 3rd level spell or more to use firebal 3/day, periapt of the sulllen sea lets yo ucast freedom of movement twice per day. Thisset also gives you some resistances.

[Mystify]

OK, so there are feats that let Sorcerers burn slots to get other effects. I forget if they tend to be (Sp) or (Su), but either way, Karsites can use 'em. I'm talking about things like the Celestial Sorcerer X and Infernal Sorcerer X feats in PHB2, the X Dragon Lineage feats in Dragon Magic, and so on. These will be helpful. The more feats we can get, the better we can pull this off.

Also, dragonpacts (also from Dragon Magic) can let you give up slots to get SLAs. Unfortunately, I can't think of a good way to cheese our way past the "must be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells" requirement on Pact-Bound Adept, so we won't be able to get more than one.

ah, those are great. I was trying to find something like that, but I wasn't looking in the right places.

Infernal sorcerer howl looks like the best bet. 2d6/level of spell sacrificed is the best conversion rate I've seen. That is roughly on par with your caster level at least. Plus, its sonic, which is great. the celestial wings also looks like a winner to me.

what I really want to do is give them reserve feats, but it clearly specifies being able able to cast the spell.

the dragonpact is also clearly worthwhile.

draconic heritage may be the most verstile. Draconic breath is not sonic, but it is otherwise on par with the howl. the draconic breath has the advantage of being a breath weapon. Does it count for the breath channelling feat? This could be a lucrative path to follow if it does.

also, if you take the draconic heratiage, you become dragonblooded. this qualifies you for the 4th level racial substituation level to transform a spell into a spell-like ability. This will allow you to have the second-highest spell level with a spell-like ability 3/day.

so I'm definitely going to say draconic heritage is a winner.

we can also look at magic items powered off spell slots

bracers of realiation allow you to sacrifice aspell slot to daze an attacker for 1 round. deathguardian bracers giv DR (2x spell slot)/-. robe or retaliation allows you sacrfice a spell slot to do a 1d6/ spell level to the attacker. roe of mysterous conjuration lets you convert spells to the appropriatesummon monster 3/day. vest of the archmagi would allow you to heal yourselfs 5xlevel. arcane theive's tools lets you spend a spellslot t get +5 to disabble device or open lock. collecting all 3 peices of the blood gift lets tou heal 2xspell level as a swift action 3/day. As part of that set, the barbs of retribution lets you spend spell slots to force an enemy to reorll a saving throw that they just suceeded, with a penalty of half the spell sacrificed. the blood claw chocker, als opart of the set, would let you regain spell slots. belt of the wide earth can sacrifice a 5th level slot to use teleport twice per day; very useful. gloves of the starrry sky lets you sacrifice a psell slot to cast magic missle. goggles of the golden sun lets you sspend a 3rd level spell or more to use firebal 3/day, periapt of the sulllen sea lets yo ucast freedom of movement twice per day. Thisset also gives you some resistances.

[Mystify]

*duplicate*

[Glimbur]

OK, so there are feats that let Sorcerers burn slots to get other effects. I forget if they tend to be (Sp) or (Su), but either way, Karsites can use 'em. I'm talking about things like the Celestial Sorcerer X and Infernal Sorcerer X feats in PHB2, the X Dragon Lineage feats in Dragon Magic, and so on. These will be helpful. The more feats we can get, the better we can pull this off.

Also, dragonpacts (also from Dragon Magic) can let you give up slots to get SLAs. Unfortunately, I can't think of a good way to cheese our way past the "must be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells" requirement on Pact-Bound Adept, so we won't be able to get more than one.

If you want to fight in melee (possible via a wand chamber holding Wraith Strike), consider Arcane Strike from Complete Arcane. +spell level to hit, +spell level d4 damage.

[BobVosh]

Is the Karsite spellcasting limitation something polycheese can get around? If so you can abuse it to get a PrC, then turn back to keep your concept. Cheap and cheesy, but hardly OP considering what you are doing...

Because I think a IotSFV and Arcane Trickster would be amusing way to take the character, but no good way around the "must cast spells of X level" clause.

[Psyren]

Wouldn't going Dragonborn drop the magic-hate racial, allowing them to take sorcerer levels? It would even be a slam-dunk roleplaywise - a Karsite outcast who has nothing against magic (or who secretly wants to wield it against his fellows) beseeches Bahamut or similar to cure him of his "affliction" and becoming dragonblooded by the ritual awakens sorcerous heritage in him?

[Morph Bark]

Wouldn't going Dragonborn drop the magic-hate racial, allowing them to take sorcerer levels? It would even be a slam-dunk roleplaywise - a Karsite outcast who has nothing against magic (or who secretly wants to wield it against his fellows) beseeches Bahamut or similar to cure him of his "affliction" and becoming dragonblooded by the ritual awakens sorcerous heritage in him?

Yes. And yes.

[Psyren]

Yes. And yes.

Would they also lose the SR? What would they keep?

(I'm notoriously fuzzy on dragonborn.)

[Zaq]

They would keep very little. Dragonborn overwrites the majority of the interesting parts of your race. You'd keep the LA, though, so it'd be entirely not worth it.

[Mystify]

Is the Karsite spellcasting limitation something polycheese can get around? If so you can abuse it to get a PrC, then turn back to keep your concept. Cheap and cheesy, but hardly OP considering what you are doing...

Because I think a IotSFV and Arcane Trickster would be amusing way to take the character, but no good way around the "must cast spells of X level" clause.
spellcasting inability is not listed as ex, su, or sp. polymorph may technically remove an ex quality, but its not listed as any. I'm not sure if that means it defaults to ex or if its a weird exception.
In any case, even if you polymorphed to gain the ability to cast a spell, it is still a pre-requisite of the class that you can cast spells. If you lose that ability, all the special features of a class would stop working. so potentially you could become a master of the sevenfold veil that could put of veils only when polymorphed. temporarily gaining access to class-pre-reqs is not very useful.

If you want to fight in melee (possible via a wand chamber holding Wraith Strike), consider Arcane Strike from Complete Arcane. +spell level to hit, +spell level d4 damage.
I tired, but it requires the ability to cast 3rd level spells.

Wouldn't going Dragonborn drop the magic-hate racial, allowing them to take sorcerer levels? It would even be a slam-dunk roleplaywise - a Karsite outcast who has nothing against magic (or who secretly wants to wield it against his fellows) beseeches Bahamut or similar to cure him of his "affliction" and becoming dragonblooded by the ritual awakens sorcerous heritage in him?
Yes, but not being a karsite anymore defeats the point. Its like saying "I'm going to play a blind character!" then casting regeneration to regrow their eyes. You haven't overcome a limitation, you have simply removed it.

[Psyren]

Yes, but not being a karsite anymore defeats the point. Its like saying "I'm going to play a blind character!" then casting regeneration to regrow their eyes. You haven't overcome a limitation, you have simply removed it.

I'm aware it's not in the spirit of the challenge, but finding solutions that obey only the letter is just as much fun for me. :smallwink:

After all, it's not like I'm going to actually play any concept in this thread.

[Mystify]

I'm aware it's not in the spirit of the challenge, but finding solutions that obey only the letter is just as much fun for me. :smallwink:

After all, it's not like I'm going to actually play any concept in this thread.

But those solutions tend to be trivial.

[Psyren]

But those solutions tend to be trivial.

Fluff-wise, not really. A Karsite that undergoes draconic rebirth to access sorcery could be very powerful in a story context. What would drive such a character to such lengths? What would cause e.g. Bahamut to grant their request, especially if such a figure is aware of Karsus and his dread legacy?

It's just not all that remarkable from a game perspective.

[Mystify]

Fluff-wise, not really. A Karsite that undergoes draconic rebirth to access sorcery could be very powerful in a story context. What would drive such a character to such lengths? What would cause e.g. Bahamut to grant their request, especially if such a figure is aware of Karsus and his dread legacy?

It's just not all that remarkable from a game perspective.

I prefer my blind monk. I was able to convince the DM that blindness was worth 2 free feats, one of which was blindfight, the other was skill focus listen. I basically took a combination of abilities that let me make a listen check that I would auto-succeed at as a free action that would pinpoint everyone within 30ft, and even tell me information like what type of armour they were wearing, then put a dual weilding monk/fighter combo on top. They had a 25% miss chance, but had enough attacks so that wasn't a big problem, and would murderize things anyway. Also had snatch arrows, so if I could make the listen check to hear the bow, I could snatch the arrow. And I had an awesome listen check.

[Mystify]

here is my current feat selection

1 draconic heritage
2
3 draconic breath (spells->breath weapon)
4 sub level- spell-like ability
5
6 metabreath feat of choice
7
8
9 metabreath feat of choice
10
11
12 craft staff
13
14
15 recharge staff
16
17
18 magic artisian(staff)
19
20

the dragon breath gives you a blasting ability for the lower levels, allowing you to deal AoE damage. the metabreath feats will let you get some versatiliy out of it, like making it into a barrier. you will still be fond of wands at the low levels. at 12 you can start crafting staffs, which is wheer your spells known will matter. however, you only have 50 charges per staff still, so you still want to be conservative about it. At level 15, you get recharge staff, and so can start freely casting from it. at level 18, you get the 75% cost on the staffs, so for the 3 most profitable levels you magnify the money you can pour into the spell selection. Since you can put a time stop in the staff, and then recharge it witha 5th level spell, this gives you some potent capacity to work from. You can also charge the staff over several days if you are not adventuring. This also lets you continue to use your high-level spell slots to trade for abilities without actually lowering your capacity to cast high level spells.

[Zaq]

Hmm. We clearly need more feats, since they provide the best sources of other things to do with spell slots. What PrCs can we get into that will give us more feats?

Karsites have the [Human] subtype, so they could probably get into Human Paragon. One caster level lost isn't that big of a cost on a build that can't really use spells anyway. I know we still want higher-level spells, but it's not QUITE as critical.

Remind me what book Recharge Staff is from?

[Mystify]

Hmm. We clearly need more feats, since they provide the best sources of other things to do with spell slots. What PrCs can we get into that will give us more feats?

Karsites have the [Human] subtype, so they could probably get into Human Paragon. One caster level lost isn't that big of a cost on a build that can't really use spells anyway. I know we still want higher-level spells, but it's not QUITE as critical.

Remind me what book Recharge Staff is from?
Human paragon would give us yet another martial weapon proficiency, for whatever that is worth. The loss of 1 caster level isn't a big deal for this build, so its worth it for the feat. An since raw sorcerer doesn't actually give anything, the last level for the stat boost is useful.
I would take the paragon classes starting at 5. 4th is the substitution level to the get the spell-like abilities, and so taking that first is more useful.

Recharge staff is from dragon magazine 338

its also worth noting that the breath weapon is supernatural, meaning no SR or attack ops.Would it qualify for ability focus?

One thing I think I got a bit mixed up on: You can use breath channeling feats with the breath weapon, you can't use metabreath. metabreath makes it so you can't cast it for longer, which isn't applicable.

[herrhauptmann]

I do believe your karsite should have a bonus feat at level 1.

"Karsites possess all the traits of humans as listed in the PHB, except as noted here:"
Nowhere in that list does it say they lose the bonus feat.

[Mystify]

I do believe your karsite should have a bonus feat at level 1.

"Karsites possess all the traits of humans as listed in the PHB, except as noted here:"
Nowhere in that list does it say they lose the bonus feat.

You are right. Sweet. That means they can get draconic wings! And we can spend the extra feat from human paragon on improved dragon wings, thereby achieving flight.

of course, we could spend the feats on other things, but that possibility jumped out at me.

[BobVosh]

spellcasting inability is not listed as ex, su, or sp. polymorph may technically remove an ex quality, but its not listed as any. I'm not sure if that means it defaults to ex or if its a weird exception.
In any case, even if you polymorphed to gain the ability to cast a spell, it is still a pre-requisite of the class that you can cast spells. If you lose that ability, all the special features of a class would stop working. so potentially you could become a master of the sevenfold veil that could put of veils only when polymorphed. temporarily gaining access to class-pre-reqs is not very useful.

Technically that restriction is only in Complete arcane, so that would rule out IotSFV. Also any other one in there. Again, a questionable reading but widely accepted in CharOp terms.

[Mystify]

Technically that restriction is only in Complete arcane, so that would rule out IotSFV. Also any other one in there. Again, a questionable reading but widely accepted in CharOp terms.

Frankly, I would never allow a temporary bonus such as being polymorphed to be used to qualify for classes. That is just silly. It is not like it is a single instant during which you need the pre-reqs.

[Psyren]

Technically that restriction is only in Complete arcane, so that would rule out IotSFV.

1) It's also in Complete Warrior.
2) It doesn't limit itself to "PrCs in this book." Absent of a rule anywhere else, I see no reason not to apply it to the others. And they were the first two "Completes" anyway.

[BobVosh]

1) It's also in Complete Warrior.
2) It doesn't limit itself to "PrCs in this book." Absent of a rule anywhere else, I see no reason not to apply it to the others. And they were the first two "Completes" anyway.

1) Right, forgot about that :S
2) That is actually an argument against imo. They stopped doing it after doing it a few times. While I understand not having it prior to it being thought through, I have trouble believing they just left it out later. However, as with all things WotC, they could have just messed up.

That said I would normally agree with you in my games, this is mostly a RAW creation about making a terrible combination work.

[Mystify]

1) Right, forgot about that :S
2) That is actually an argument against imo. They stopped doing it after doing it a few times. While I understand not having it prior to it being thought through, I have trouble believing they just left it out later. However, as with all things WotC, they could have just messed up.

That said I would normally agree with you in my games, this is mostly a RAW creation about making a terrible combination work.

There is a difference between optimizing and trying to break the rules. Yes, a lot of this is riding on technicalities like whether a given ability specifies ability to cast a spell or not, but there is a difference between that and using polymorph to gain prestige classes.

Everything I have read has laid out the general rule that if you don't meet prerequisites for something, you lose the benefits. Feats, prestige classes, it doesn't matter. The polymorph trick will not work. It is not enough to justify the entry in the first place, and the rules seem pretty clear that you lose the class features as soon as you no longer meet the prerequisites.

[Morph Bark]

I do believe your karsite should have a bonus feat at level 1.

"Karsites possess all the traits of humans as listed in the PHB, except as noted here:"
Nowhere in that list does it say they lose the bonus feat.

Holy Magikrap. Now I want to play a Karsite even more.

[Mystify]

Another possibility comes from the tome of magic. There are a series of fets for using metamagic with supernatual abilities. So you could take widen supernatural ability at 9th level, and 1/day double the size of your breath weapon. you could also empower, but that doesn't seem as worthwhile. a widened entangling breath, on the other hand, could be very useful.

[Prime32]

Psi-spell feats (Dr313) let you add additional effects to a psionic power by expending spell slots, and not all have spellcasting as a prereq. Then there's Cannibalise Spell (Dr349) which lets you convert spell slots into power points.

[Mystify]

Psi-spell feats (Dr313) let you add additional effects to a psionic power by expending spell slots, and not all have spellcasting as a prereq. Then there's Cannibalise Spell (Dr349) which lets you convert spell slots into power points.

Can we utilize any of that without multiclassing into a psionic class?

[Prime32]

PHB2 feats:
Arcane Consumption -> Arcane Toughness
Arcane Flourish -> Arcane Accompaniment
Celestial Sorcerer Heritage -> Celestial Sorcerer Aura/Lance/Wings
Infernal Sorcerer Heritage -> Infernal Sorcerer Eyes/Howl/Resistance
Dampen Spell

From Dragon Magic:
(Insert Colour) Dragon Lineage
Draconic Senses
Dragonfire Assault
Dragonfire Strike

Complete Arcane:
Draconic Resistance
Draconic Skin

Also, Improved Familiar and other familiar-boosting feats

1

Dragonblood sorcerer RSLs (Races of the Dragon) - convert some spells into SLAs to escape the racial restrictions.
Domain Access ACF (Complete Champion) - lose spells known in exchange for a domain, including its granted power
Spell Shield (Dungeonscape) - Expend spell slots to block damage

[Mystify]

PHB2 feats:
Arcane Consumption -> Arcane Toughness
Arcane Flourish -> Arcane Accompaniment
Celestial Sorcerer Heritage -> Celestial Sorcerer Aura/Lance/Wings
Infernal Sorcerer Heritage -> Infernal Sorcerer Eyes/Howl/Resistance
Dampen Spell

From Dragon Magic:
(Colour) Dragon Lineage
Draconic Senses
Dragonfire Assault
Dragonfire Channeling
Dragonfire Strike

Complete Arcane:
Draconic Resistance
Draconic Skin
arcane toughness could be useful, but it seems rather weak to me.
arcane consumption is pointless, as it boosts the save for spells you cast.
arcane accompanyment is useless as we are not a bard
arcane flourish boosts perform checks, which could be useful if we can find something nifty to use perform checks for without being a bard

Dampen spell is an interesting option. The improved counterspell is pretty useless, but being able to nerf an enemies spell as an immediate action can be useful, esp. since the oppurtunity cost is much lower for this character.

the celestial and infernal heritages are both useful chains, but I think dragon heratige is a better choice.

dragonfire strike is pointless, as we don't have sneak attack ot the like.

dragonfire channeling seems pointless since we can't turn

dragonfire assault seems weak. It wouldn't increase the damage from power attack, but it would make it slam into any energy resistance. The only cases that seems worthwhile is if the enemy has too much DR to hit through, in which case the energy damage peirces it. This is not that great. Or if they happen to have a vulnerability, which is unlikely.

dragon senses isn't useless, but I think there are better feats we could take

draconic resistance could be useful, depending on how many draconic feats you end up taking.

Dragon skin is +1NA, not that great of a feat.

As for the familiar feats, we gave up the familiar for the imbued staff ability, which is key to late game viability.

[Mystify]

I was looking through my books, and came across a line that supports this build being allowed to take the classes I mentioned. "A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns
to cast spells. However, prestige classes with caster level requirements, such as the acolyte of the skin, are well suited to the warlock."

A Karsite sorcerer cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns to cast spells. However, prestige classes with caster level requirements, such as acolyte of the skin, are well-suited to a karsite sorcerer.

Basically, the classes that only require caster level are based off of arcane power, not spell level.

I was also considering how to make the fluff work. Basically, Karsites are from a cursed bloodline, making them antimagic. You just say that this curse is the inability to cast spells, but it doesn't actually limit your ability to gain arcane energy. Thus, a karsite may inherite the innate arcane power of a sorcerer, but be unable to cast spells with it due to their curse. This drives them to focus more on martial skill than spellcasting, hence the stalwart battle sorcerer. They also seek out other ways to tap into their pool of arcane energy other than spells, which is what the rest of the build is focused on.

[Xander_Phoenix]

Awesome concept! Most definitely want to try one.

Substantial part: Aren't karsites automatically proficient with ALL martial weapons and light and medium armor? :smallamused:

[Mystify]

Awesome concept! Most definitely want to try one.

Substantial part: Aren't karsites automatically proficient with ALL martial weapons and light and medium armor? :smallamused:

And so they are. I'm not used to looking to races for proficiencies. This means we would have to decide between the dragon wing flight or medium armour, or take yet another feat to fly in medium. It does make the martial weapon proficiencies pointless, but the weapon focus i still beneficial.

If we do sick with wings, it is a good idea to pick a peircing weapon, since the improved wings feat allows for a dive attack that is a charge with double damage, and it would be a shame to pass that up.

[Prime32]

If we do sick with wings, it is a good idea to pick a peircing weapon, since the improved wings feat allows for a dive attack that is a charge with double damage, and it would be a shame to pass that up.All fly speeds allow that, it's just normally restricted to claws+talons.

[Mystify]

All fly speeds allow that, it's just normally restricted to claws+talons.
And this one isn't. We don't have claws or talons, but we can weild a peircing weapon, so its worth mentioning.

[Xander_Phoenix]

Other PrCs worth mentioning:
Sand Shaper (Sandstorm), Keeper of the Cerulean Sign (Lords of Madness), Urban Savant (Cityscape), Visionary Seeker (Planar Handbook), Talon of Tiamat (Draconimicon).

Also, this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915) (PrCs section) may be interesting.

EDIT: Also, there is Domain Access ACF in Complete Champion, which essentially gives Domain Power but requires five levels of sorcerer.

[Mystify]

Other PrCs worth mentioning:
Sand Shaper (Sandstorm), Keeper of the Cerulean Sign (Lords of Madness), Urban Savant (Cityscape), Visionary Seeker (Planar Handbook), Talon of Tiamat (Draconimicon).

Also, this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915) (PrCs section) may be interesting.
lets see.

Sandshaper:
the dust magic and desert insight are pretty pointless. sand shape could be fun, sandform works fine, and sand stride works well. desert slumber is useful, desert shroud is very nice.

I'd say sandshaper would be a strong choice.

keeper of the cereleun sign:
most of their abilitieswork, but the class is pretty much only useful against aberations. If you are fighting aberations, it could bea good choice. See if you DM will allow the banemagic to apply to dragon breath.

urban savant
this works if you can use the knowledge[history]substitution for entry. All of the class features work, and so it could be useful in the appropriate campaign

visionary seeker
the spellcating is slowed, but that is not as important. divination expertise is pointless though. spell mimic is very useful, and the other features are nice.

talon of tiamat
this would open up heavy armour, if we want to make this character into a real tank. They have the health for it. The breath weapons are a useful addition to their existing breath weapon, the energy immunity is sweet, dominate dragon is awesome, and it fits with the general dragon theme of the character.



Also, if you are usingebeoron, dragonmarks couldbe useful. You are still a human, and hence meet the racial requirements. This also opens up the ehir of siberys prestige class, which can add a powerful spell-like ability couple of times per day while still offering 2/3 casting advancement.

[Zilzmaer]

If you can fit in TWF, Eilservs School from DotU could be nice. Probably not, though; just too many feats. Maybe worshipping an Elder Evil plus Dark Chaos Shuffle...

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread necromancy. This thread is nearly a year old.