Practiced Spellcaster +Feat/PrC Requirements

[SirFredgar]

Hello,

This is a carry over from another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226042), the op asked we kindly vacate to discuss this, and it is something I'd like clarified from the playground.

What I am curious about is this quiant little text taken out of the FAQ.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation?post_id =338388114#338388114
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

Now, I have seen this applied to a discussion of Divine Defiance that specifically calls out for "Divine Caster Level 3rd", and that the faq implies that you could not take 1 level in Cleric and pick up practiced spellcaster to qualify.

The context is different, but in that previous thread, I applied the same rule of thumb to the SandShaper's PrC entry requirements, ie you cannot take the feat and 1 level in wizard to eventually qualify.

For the record, I was orginally in the camp of "divine caster level 3rd" means a Caster Level 3 of divine spells, as opposed to the Divine Caster, 3rd level the faq seems to imply.

[Flickerdart]

FAQ states: Paladin 5 has a Spellcaster level of 5.
FAQ states: Paladin 5 has a Caster level of 2.
Thus, FAQ states: Spellcaster level and caster level are not the same, and not interchangeable terms.
Your own source proves the argument wrong.

[SirFredgar]

FAQ states: Paladin 5 has a Spellcaster level of 5.
FAQ states: Paladin 5 has a Caster level of 2.
Thus, FAQ states: Spellcaster level and caster level are not the same, and not interchangeable terms.
Your own source proves the argument wrong.

No, you are misunderstanding my argument. I do not think they are the same thing, in fact I know that a Caster Level is different then a Spellcaster Level. My point is that "Arcane Caster Level 5th" is more akin to "Spellcaster Level 5th" then you let on.

I know there are two ways to interprate that. One is that you need need to be a 5th level arcane caster, and the other is you need to have a caster level of 5 in an arcane casting class. You can't just toss out one particular interpretation because it runs contrary to your past expereince.

[Fax Celestis]

FAQ states: Paladin 5 has a Spellcaster level of 5.
FAQ states: Paladin 5 has a Caster level of 2.
Thus, FAQ states: Spellcaster level and caster level are not the same, and not interchangeable terms.
Your own source proves the argument wrong.

This, Plus One.

[Flickerdart]

No, you are misunderstanding my argument. I do not think they are the same thing, in fact I know that a Caster Level is different then a Spellcaster Level. My point is that "Arcane Caster Level 5th" is more akin to "Spellcaster Level 5th" then you let on.

I know there are two ways to interprate that. One is that you need need to be a 5th level arcane caster, and the other is you need to have a caster level of 5 in an arcane casting class. You can't just toss out one particular interpretation because it runs contrary to your past expereince.
Sigh.

Arcane Caster Level is a kind of Caster Level. Caster Level, as we have previously established, is not the same as Spellcaster Level. So how is it possible that Spellcaster Level bears any resemblance to Arcane Caster Level?

There are no two ways of interpreting this, because your claim proves itself wrong.

[Fax Celestis]

I know there are two ways to interprate that. One is that you need need to be a 5th level arcane caster, and the other is you need to have a caster level of 5 in an arcane casting class. You can't just toss out one particular interpretation because it runs contrary to your past expereince.

It's not contrary to experience, it is how the rules work.

Or would you explain what happens with, say, Ur-Priest, whose caster level is equal to twice the levels in the class? With it, you can have a divine caster level of 6 but a divine spellcaster level of 3.

[SirFredgar]

It's not contrary to experience, it is how the rules work.

Or would you explain what happens with, say, Ur-Priest, whose caster level is equal to twice the levels in the class? With it, you can have a divine caster level of 6 but a divine spellcaster level of 3.

For the last time, I understand the fundamental difference between what a caster level is, and having levels in a caster class.

My point is that you are automatically reading "Arcane Caster Level 5th" to mean "Caster Level 5, (in an arcane class)". What I am actaully trying to pose, is the notion that maybe it should be read more like "Spellcaster, 5th level (in an arcane class)".

Also, please note that I have not said that your interpretation of the rules is incorrect, but merely offered another veiwpoint. A veiwpoint I have seen before in others.

[Flickerdart]

Why would you think that it should read differently? It already reads as a thing. Unless you can get a citation from the developer that says "yeah, we meant to have this require 5 levels in a class, but somehow forgot the rules of the game we made", then there's no basis for this.

Arcane Caster Level has a specific in-game meaning. Claiming that it should mean something else is like claiming that maybe Bonus Feat means 9th Level Spells, and Fighters have been OP all along.

[SirFredgar]

Why would you think that it should read differently? It already reads as a thing. Unless you can get a citation from the developer that says "yeah, we meant to have this require 5 levels in a class, but somehow forgot the rules of the game we made", then there's no basis for this.

Arcane Caster Level has a specific in-game meaning. Claiming that it should mean something else is like claiming that maybe Bonus Feat means 9th Level Spells, and Fighters have been OP all along.

I am actually of the school of thought that it does indeed apply to Caster Level, but the fact remains that I have seen the argument before, speficially with the interaction of practiced spellcaster + divine defiance being illegal. It says "Divine Caster Level" instead of "Arcane Caster Level", so I thought it was applicable. Unless your telling me those two mechanics are different in some way (aside from the obvious)

[Flickerdart]

If you have seen such an argument, then the argument is wrong, as it has no factual basis of any kind. I am not certain what you wanted to achieve with this thread in that case.

[SirFredgar]

If you have seen such an argument, then the argument is wrong, as it has no factual basis of any kind. I am not certain what you wanted to achieve with this thread in that case.

You have made your interpretation very clear. But it is just that. Now I understand it is probably the most popular interpretation, but it is not the only one. My hope in opening this thread was to perhaps get the opinion of some open minded posters that aren't going to just tell me "this is the way it is, all others be damned." Because even though you have popular opinion on your side, doesn't make you automatically correct... no matter how many times you post that you are.

[BobVosh]

Flickerdart may be more sarcastic and harsh than I'm used to him being, but he is absolutely correct. There is only one correct reading (for once in D&D, YAY!). The term is very well defined, and RAW stands up to this.

As for RAI, usually it says "cast spells of 3rd level" whenever it wants a 5th level spellcaster. So I would still rule the same way with my RAI.

[Flickerdart]

It's not an interpretation any more than +2d6 Sneak Attack is an interpretation of the prerequisites of Arcane Trickster. You are creating confusion where none exists by wilfully replacing a reserved game term with a completely different and unrelated game term.

Flickerdart may be more sarcastic and harsh than I'm used to him being, but he is absolutely correct. There is only one correct reading (for once in D&D, YAY!). The term is very well defined, and RAW stands up to this.
Wait, you're not used to me being sarcastic? Dear lord, I'm really off my game.

[dextercorvia]

There are a few around here who believe that caster level and spellcaster level mean the same thing -- usually because they want a Warlock with a familiar, or some such thing.

Flickerdart is right, and right-on about the level of sarcasm needed to convey the inanity of the question.

[SirFredgar]

Flickerdart may be more sarcastic and harsh than I'm used to him being, but he is absolutely correct. There is only one correct reading (for once in D&D, YAY!). The term is very well defined, and RAW stands up to this.

As for RAI, usually it says "cast spells of 3rd level" whenever it wants a 5th level spellcaster. So I would still rule the same way with my RAI.

So by RAW then, one could qualify for Divine Defiance with a 1 level dip in Cleric + Practiced Spellcaster?

[dextercorvia]

So by RAW then, one could qualify for Divine Defiance with a 1 level dip in Cleric + Practiced Spellcaster?

And character level of at least 3.

[candycorn]

If a PrC, feat, or other useful bit of splat has a requirement of "Caster Level 5", then any way of getting that Caster level is fine. Warlock 5, Wizard 1/Fighter 4 with practiced spellcaster, Cleric 5... All are Caster Level 5.

Many PrC's and such require "Ability to cast 3rd level spells" which actually requires the ability to cast spells of the required level.

Very few PrC's tie themselves to the number of levels you've taken in a class. They are more likely to reference abilities that a class may give, but, in many cases, those abilities can be gained through other sources as well, provided you meet the qualifications.

You can discuss what "should" be, and that's fine. PrC qualifications can be altered to suit each DM's campaign and playstyle, and that's fine. Heck, careful examination of PrC's is recommended by the rules.

This is just referring to how it actually is interpreted, under the rules.

[BobVosh]

Provided they can use the full bonus of practiced spellcaster.

Wait, you're not used to me being sarcastic? Dear lord, I'm really off my game.

It is ok, it happens to the best of us. *Pats on the back* I'm sure you were just in a slump.

[SirFredgar]

There are a few around here who believe that caster level and spellcaster level mean the same thing -- usually because they want a Warlock with a familiar, or some such thing.

Flickerdart is right, and right-on about the level of sarcasm needed to convey the inanity of the question.

Well, yeah... and I originally held the same notion of Arcane (or Divine) Caster Level point to just that... cast level. It wasn't untill recently someone (much more expereinced then myself) told me no... plz look at the FAQ.

The real insanity comes from the fact that I also saw a little note of this on the counterspell/dispelling guide when making my dispeller. Under feats http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation?pg=1

[Fax Celestis]

Well, yeah... and I originally held the same notion of Arcane (or Divine) Caster Level point to just that... cast level. It wasn't untill recently someone (much more expereinced then myself) told me no... plz look at the FAQ.

Whoever it is, is wrong or pulling your leg.

[SirFredgar]

It's not an interpretation any more than +2d6 Sneak Attack is an interpretation of the prerequisites of Arcane Trickster. You are creating confusion where none exists by wilfully replacing a reserved game term with a completely different and unrelated game term.

Wait, you're not used to me being sarcastic? Dear lord, I'm really off my game.

It was not my intention to create confusion, but to simply try to explain an opposing veiwpoint.

Also, contrary to my bad grammer and horrible spelling, I do not like to be talked down to.

[BobVosh]

I never, ever look at the FAQ. I will usually just ask this forums in the simple Q&A or make a thread. The FAQ is a joke.

[SirFredgar]

I never, ever look at the FAQ. I will usually just ask this forums in the simple Q&A or make a thread. The FAQ is a joke.

I hear that same mentality about CustServ... though working for a Customer Service call center I know how things can go one way or the other depending on who you reach. I figured since the faq was made by WoTC they would be somewhat realiable. Even if they don't exactly cover this topic, as clearly everyone but this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12355066&postcount=8) agrees Divine Caster Level means Caster Level.

[Snowbluff]

Or would you explain what happens with, say, Ur-Priest, whose caster level is equal to twice the levels in the class?

Wait, really? Since when?

[candycorn]

Wait, really? Since when?

He may have been misremembering Chameleon, which does advance at that rate.

[Fax Celestis]

He may have been misremembering Chameleon, which does advance at that rate.

I was. Whoooops~~

[The Glyphstone]

\ I figured since the faq was made by WoTC they would be somewhat reliable


Pffffft....bwahahahahahahaha.

[SirFredgar]

Pffffft....bwahahahahahahaha.

Live and Learn, right?


But I did want to take a moment to eveyone for clearing up that misunderstanding for me.