Bloodwind + Improved Grab = Scorpion?

[candycorn]

I was looking at the implications of these two items. The first, Bloodwind, is a level 1 spell from the SpC. Basically, it lets you, for 1 round, use natural weapons at range, with a range increment of 20 feet.

The second, Improved Grab, is an ability that allows you, when you hit with a specified natural weapon, to initiate a grapple as a free action, without an attack of opportunity. If you win the opposed check, the opponent is pulled into your square, and you are grappling.

As you may have guessed, I'm exploring the interaction between these two items. Would this be a means to imitate Scorpion, from Mortal Kombat? Would you be able to essentially yank someone 50 feet to you, by hitting them with a qualifying weapon and initiating an Improved Grab grapple?

[Morph Bark]

Seems like it would work. The spell does not appear to disallow any additional abilities/effects on natural weapons from working at a range. Unless Improved Grab states that it must be a melee attack, it would work.

[Coidzor]

...I can't think of anything offhand to prevent that.

Definitely an interesting mental image. Especially when paired with bear...

[candycorn]

I was originally thinking a Sword of the Arcane Order Wildshape Ranger 5 / MoMF 7 / Warshaper 5 / Nature's Warrior 3, with it, actually, but the thought amused me, so I thought I would post it for peer review and to look for holes in the thought process, flaws in the RAW.

[JadePhoenix]

I'm totally stealing this for my game.

[FMArthur]

Seems like it would work. The spell does not appear to disallow any additional abilities/effects on natural weapons from working at a range. Unless Improved Grab states that it must be a melee attack, it would work.

It does. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) So this particular combo does not work.

One that does work is using an unarmed strike with the Scorpion's Grasp feat from Sandstorm. If you can get your unarmed strike to be ranged, what happens with this combo is you attack them and move into their space to grapple, since it doesn't take them to yours like Improved Grab and the Grapple rules pick up from there. The movement is free but provokes AoOs.

[Keegan__D]

It does. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) So this particular combo does not work.

One that does work is using an unarmed strike with the Scorpion's Grasp feat from Sandstorm. If you can get your unarmed strike to be ranged, what happens with this combo is you attack them and move into their space to grapple, since it doesn't take them to yours like Improved Grab and the Grapple rules pick up from there. The movement is free but provokes AoOs.

It says melee weapon, and you're attacking with a melee weapon as if it were a thrown weapons.

Also, what is MoMF?

[candycorn]

Master of Many Forms - Prestige class in Complete Adventurer.


It does. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) So this particular combo does not work.Specific trumps general. Entries in individual entries trump the general function of the feat.

Improved Grab entries, without exception, state, "Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a {creature} must hit with a {attack in the creature's entry}. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity."

Based on this, the specific restriction in the entry (a specific weapon... in the case of a brown bear, it's a claw attack) overrides the general restriction in the overview of the ability (a melee weapon).

Since virtually all entries have this format, "melee weapon" is overridden in almost every case, by the specific weapon.

Also note, it requires an attack with a melee weapon... Not a melee attack. Typically, there's no difference, but sometimes the subtle change matters.

[Heliomance]

Seems like it would work. The spell does not appear to disallow any additional abilities/effects on natural weapons from working at a range. Unless Improved Grab states that it must be a melee attack, it would work.


It does. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) So this particular combo does not work.

One that does work is using an unarmed strike with the Scorpion's Grasp feat from Sandstorm. If you can get your unarmed strike to be ranged, what happens with this combo is you attack them and move into their space to grapple, since it doesn't take them to yours like Improved Grab and the Grapple rules pick up from there. The movement is free but provokes AoOs.

A few levels in Bloodstorm Blade would get around that for you. It gets the ability to treat thrown attacks as melee attacks for all purposes.

[candycorn]

A few levels in Bloodstorm Blade would get around that for you. It gets the ability to treat thrown attacks as melee attacks for all purposes.

An attack with a melee weapon is not the same as a melee attack. Improved grab requires an attack with a melee weapon.

[Heliomance]

Well in that case, there's no problem, is there? Your natural attacks are melee weapons, no arguments there. And so with Bloodstorm Blade, you're making a melee attack with a melee weapon that just happens to be at range.

[candycorn]

Specific vs general should trump the linked entry, making BSB a rather moot point.

[Heliomance]

OTOH, it would probably still be a very useful PrC for the build.

[candycorn]

OTOH, it would probably still be a very useful PrC for the build.

Likely, but I see the primary benefit as being able to pluck someone out of a group. Take Far shot, and double the increment, allowing 200 feet of range total. Pick who you want to yank, full attack, hit them, grapple them, pin them, then release them.

Suddenly the guy in the back ranks is surrounded by the party.

[IdleMuse]

Not wanting to debate specific vs. general, but I'd generally treat a full description of a named ability in the MM glossary as an expansion of the shorthand in the individual monster descriptions. This may be a 'house rule', but it seems intended...

[Keegan__D]

How about some wings? Not Scorpion, but definitely effective. Lose a grapple check? No prob. They drop 100 feet. Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings to carry most foes (combined with huge Str and increased carrying capacity)

[Coidzor]

How about some wings? Not Scorpion, but definitely effective. Lose a grapple check? No prob. They drop 100 feet. Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings to carry most foes (combined with huge Str and increased carrying capacity)

And now I'm imagining a magically altered that damn crab terrorizing the country side and picking up turtlesadventurers in order to crack open their shells.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think it is important to mention the Grappling vine graft from Magic of Eberron which states:

Effect: You can launch a thick, sticky vine from your
arm in an attempt to grapple an opponent. Doing this
requires a ranged touch attack (the vine has a reach of 10
feet).

[candycorn]

Not wanting to debate specific vs. general, but I'd generally treat a full description of a named ability in the MM glossary as an expansion of the shorthand in the individual monster descriptions. This may be a 'house rule', but it seems intended...

However, the generic entry in the MM glossary is a template. Alterations for the template are listed in each individual entry, which always supercedes the template.