Meta-illusion?

[ClothedInVelvet]

Is it possible to make an illusion of an illusion?

I'm building a shadowcraft mage, mainly because I need to become more familiar with the rules on illusions. But working on a class that makes illusions real got me to thinking.

For example, if I'm running toward a chasm being chased by a squad of guards, could I make an illusion of an illusionary bridge? I naturally disbelieve my own illusion, which makes it real (not hard for a shadowcraft mage to get to 120% real illusions). But the guards believe the illusion, thus being subjected to an illusory bridge and falling through (or probably not even venturing onto it).

I realize it's convoluted... help?

[motoko's ghost]

That kinda ridiculous:smallamused:

The concept of an illusion of something illusory can be useful and I would allow it, but I wouldn't allow the shadowcraft stuff allowing it to be real for only you, thats a little cheesy.(although interesting concept an illusionist whos illusions are real to him, possibly something with insanity, hmmm... I might just have a new adventure for my campaign world)

[ClothedInVelvet]

That kinda ridiculous:smallamused:

The concept of an illusion of something illusory can be useful and I would allow it, but I wouldn't allow the shadowcraft stuff allowing it to be real for only you, thats a little cheesy.(although interesting concept an illusionist whos illusions are real to him, possibly something with insanity, hmmm... I might just have a new adventure for my campaign world)

No, it's extremely ridiculous. But I think there's something to it. If your illusions are actually more real when disbelieved, there should be a way to use that. And it wouldn't just be you, anyone who interacted with it would get a save to disbelieve.

I may have to patent this...

[motoko's ghost]

I've always houseruled that you cant get an illusion more real than reality unless your name is plato:smallwink:

[ClothedInVelvet]

I've always houseruled that you cant get an illusion more real than reality unless your name is plato:smallwink:

More likely, Plato would just succeed on his will save to disbelieve the entire material world. He would then proceed to find the form of the BBEG and destroy it, erasing all BBEGs from existence.

*Philosophy major

[Acanous]

Try this instead:
You cast Invisible Spell: Major Image to create a bridge. You automatically disbelieve your illusion and can walk upon your invisible bridge. Your pursuers do not see the illusion and cannot interact with it, unless maybe they follow your exact path (Most would just assume the spell you'd cast was Wind Walk or somesuch.)

[Tenno Seremel]

illusion of an illusionary bridge? I naturally disbelieve my own illusion, which makes it real (not hard for a shadowcraft mage to get to 120% real illusions). But the guards believe the illusion

Illusion of illusion = guards see it's as illusion without even trying (because it appears to be as such) so they don't move on the bridge.

[motoko's ghost]

what I want to know is what happens when you cast an illusion of an illusary wizard casting an illusion of an illusionary creature...named illusion.

Also plato would die if he did that,due to the fact the BBEG is a solipsist.:smalltongue:

[Tenno Seremel]

what I want to know is what happens when you cast an illusion of an illusary wizard casting an illusion of an illusionary creature...named illusion.

It's just a single illusion that looks unreal :}

[Zombimode]

More likely, Plato would just succeed on his will save to disbelieve the entire material world. He would then proceed to find the form of the BBEG and destroy it, erasing all BBEGs from existence.

Emphasis mine. I think you mean "idea". If you do, than Platon couldnt do that, since ideas are eternal and unchangeable. They cant be destroyed.

[motoko's ghost]

Emphasis mine. I think you mean "idea". If you do, than Platon couldnt do that, since ideas are eternal and unchangeable. They cant be destroyed.

They are hardly unchangable, they are constantly changing and evolving. People see it, they see how THEY interpret that and that changes the idea and subsequently how later individual personally interpret them.

Thats not including the hi-jacking of ideas and changing/re-using them for different purposes for different groups over time. i.e the stand alone complex, the use of ancient symbols in more modern groups, where the symbol know means something completely different and overshadows the original.

[Zombimode]

I was talking about a philosophical terminus technicus, that is the platonic ideas.

[motoko's ghost]

I was talking about a philosophical terminus technicus, that is the platonic ideas.

Ah, gotcha. the meta-concepts thing, where all of our versions of <THING> are actual just reflections, one thing you have to remember though, it works both ways.

[navar100]

On a tangent but related:

I'm considering giving my Sorcerer Shadow Conjuration in the future. Could I use it to duplicate Phantom Steed, autofail the save, and ride it 100% of the time as opposed to the 20% chance of it being "real" anyway when one disbelieves? I accept it would have less hit points than a real Phantom Steed.

[Zaq]

Yo dawg, I heard you like illusions . . .

Yeah, I have no idea how this would work, but I couldn't resist the obvious joke.

[Calanon]

On a tangent but related:

I'm considering giving my Sorcerer Shadow Conjuration in the future. Could I use it to duplicate Phantom Steed, autofail the save, and ride it 100% of the time as opposed to the 20% chance of it being "real" anyway when one disbelieves? I accept it would have less hit points than a real Phantom Steed.

Hmm... never actually thought of that :smallconfused: can an Illusionist do this with Shades and mimic Greater Teleport? :smallconfused: ladies and gentlemen, I believe we found an excuse for Illusionist to have Evocations and Conjurations as a forbidden school :smallbiggrin:

[Qwertystop]

Hmm... never actually thought of that :smallconfused: can an Illusionist do this with Shades and mimic Greater Teleport? :smallconfused: ladies and gentlemen, I believe we found an excuse for Illusionist to have Evocations and Conjurations as a forbidden school :smallbiggrin:

Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation already did most of that.
Mimicking Miracle helped.
what happens if someone makes the save on Teleport?

[navar100]

Hmm... never actually thought of that :smallconfused: can an Illusionist do this with Shades and mimic Greater Teleport? :smallconfused: ladies and gentlemen, I believe we found an excuse for Illusionist to have Evocations and Conjurations as a forbidden school :smallbiggrin:

That's definitely no because Shadow Conjuration can only duplicate Conjuration (creation) or (summoning) not (teleport).

[Dimers]

Heh. Shades of AD&D. There was an illusion spell called Solipsism in which you create something that's totally real for you and not even visible to anyone else. Then there's the 3.0 third-party Relics And Rituals, which has a spell to cover a real object (or creature!) with an illusion that convinces people it's an illusion until they manage to disbelieve.

[Lateral]

Yo dawg, I heard you like illusions . . .

Yeah, I have no idea how this would work, but I couldn't resist the obvious joke.
And yet nobody's made an 'illusionception' joke yet.

[Calanon]

And yet nobody's made an 'illusionception' joke yet.

Because if we made it we would all feel bad about it later since nobody else will be able to make it later...:smallfrown:

[legomaster00156]

Ah, but if you believe that your illusory bridge will get you across (which you would) does that not count as believing the illusion, and thus triggering it?

[motoko's ghost]

If you allow this what happens when you cast mirror image, do you get multiple copies of yourself that are even stronger than you?

I do know there is a template for illusary monsters, they can still fight though and havesome ridiculous immunityies( such as all forms of damage, cannot be permenantly killed except through a single 9thlv spell,etc :smalleek:)