Natural weapons in a grapple

[NudelJunge]

So, let's say I'm a big bad shifter barbarian with claws and a bite. I get into a grapple with some guy and I win the opposed grapple check. According to the PHB, I do unarmed strike damage? Which for a medium non-monk is 1d3 + STR mod damage.

If, being the big bad shifter barbarian that I am, I have natural weapons like claws and a bite, can I not use them in a grapple to deal more than a piddly 1d3 + STR mod damage?

[aeauseth]

There are several options that are available to you when grappling. Yes, one of them is "Damage Your Opponent" via unarmed attack. However in your case you would want to use "Attack Your Opponent" which allows for a natural weapon. You take a -4 to hit, but you do your normal claw or bite damage. If you read the Grapple section closely you will note that you can only use a single weapon (or claw), however your BAB may allow more than one "Attack Your Opponent" action in a round.

[Quietus]

To clarify a little, once you're inside a grapple, your natural attack routine no longer matters. The only thing that counts is your base attack and iteratives. You select a single one of your natural/light weapons to attack with, and make attacks with that as your base attack allows. So, for example, let's look at a dire bear. Base attack = +9.

Normal attack routine : 2 claws +bite. Claws are primary, so these are made at full base attack (+9), bite secondary so it takes a -5 penalty (+4).

Grapple attack routine : Pick one weapon (either claw or your bite). Your first attack is made at full base, with a -4 penalty for using a weapon in a grapple, total base bonus +5. Your second attack, granted by virtue of your high base, is made at a -5 penalty, plus the -4 penalty for using a weapon in a grapple, so your base bonus for that is +0.

Note, of course, that all these base bonuses also add strength, any magic fang effects, weapon focus, etc, etc - I'm strictly giving only the base attack and penalties immediately associated.


Now, to make things a bit more complicated.. improved grab. With either claw attack, the dire bear can start a free grapple. If you were treating your claw attacks as primary attacks, there are no rules known to me as to what happens. My assumption : Your full attack ends, because you can't use your iteratives or your natural attack sequence now that you're in a grapple. This isn't spelled out anywhere, however.

On the other hand, if the bear - for whatever reason - was treating *all* of its weapons as secondary, and taking that -5 penalty to both claws and the bite, then it will still have iteratives available as its primary attack. If either claw hits and successfully grapples, then the bear can use those iteratives, as listed above, in the grapple. Its natural attack routine, however, would stop due to not being an option inside a grapple.



This stuff was all learned in a recent game I ran with some very rules-savvy players. Quite frankly, we all had to simply look at the grapple system and shrug at it, because it straight up doesn't make sense when you're mixing grapple with pounce, improved grab, and multiple natural weapons.

[Zaq]

The Black Blood Cultist PrC (Champions of Ruin) lets you "deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons (including rend, if you are raging) on a successful grapple check." You might look into that.

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Not strictly RAW, but I always resolve Improved grab attempts and the like after the attacks have finished taking place.
This way I can resolve damage and then find out if the grapple check was successful.

I've used this for years and it works out the fastest way to resolve it in the long run. Hope this helps

[Quietus]

Not strictly RAW, but I always resolve Improved grab attempts and the like after the attacks have finished taking place.
This way I can resolve damage and then find out if the grapple check was successful.

I've used this for years and it works out the fastest way to resolve it in the long run. Hope this helps

Not RAW at all, actually. It's one way of doing it, but specifically speaking, wherever that grapple check from Improved Grab kicks in, if you succeed, your full attack should have stopped there. It's easier as far as handling pounce/full attacks, though, just not how it works RAW.

[Goblite]

Not RAW at all, actually. It's one way of doing it, but specifically speaking, wherever that grapple check from Improved Grab kicks in, if you succeed, your full attack should have stopped there. It's easier as far as handling pounce/full attacks, though, just not how it works RAW.

RAW or not it doesnt make much sense to stop the attack at the grapple. Visualize what would be happening in a full attack with no grapple: two claws slash at the target and then you lunge to bite. Now visualize it with a grapple: two claws slash at the target and dig into its flesh giving you a hold on the target- what is to stop the bite? Furthermore, if a cat can get rakes with its hind legs on a successful grapple, why could it not also bite with much nearer mouthparts? If you watch a nat-geo vid of a cheetah or lion pouncing on a gazelle you see exactly that: two claws, a free grapple as they dig in, a bite if it was a solid pounce, and maybe some rakes if the gazelle goes down.

I like rule on such things with regard to the idea of what is supposedly happening, not so much the word choices of the rulebook authors. Then again... sometimes the rules are written for balance and not realism.

[Khedrac]

Actually there's a very good reason to resolve the grapple after the attack triggering it.

Take a big cat, the attack routine is:
1 Bite (primary with improved grab)
2 Claw (secondary)
3 Claw (secondary)
4 Rake (primary, only in grapple)
5 Rake (primary, only in grapple)

So, why does it matter if you resolve the grapple after 1 or after 3? (or on a pounce 5?) - well those Claw attacks are most likely to miss if the grapple happens, even if you want to allow the full attack routine. Remember, they are already secondary attacks and you just added a further -4 to them, something the Rakes don't suffer from. Hence not getting them because of the grapple probably doesn't make any difference.

Incidentally, the above posts suggest (unintentionally I think) that one can use the multiple options in a grapple to make iterative attacks with a natural weapon. Well, while grapples do allow for iterative attacks, there is nothing in their rules that contradict the rule that natural weapons do not get iterative attacks, so no, one cannot.
What on can do is make each of the attacks with a different natural weapon adding in the iterative penalties that grapples apply.