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An Enemy Spy
2011-12-17, 02:37 PM
So my group was guarding a caravan in the desert when they were attacked by a group of Formians. Not recognizing the new threat, the barabarian asked one of the NPCs what they were. On the knowledge check, I rolled a natural 20.
What exactly does this mean? Does this nameless guy just happen to be one of the world's leading experts on the formian race, knowing everything there is to know about them, or does it just mean he knows a couple of of extremely specific things?

One Tin Soldier
2011-12-17, 02:49 PM
Assuming you're playing 3.5 or similar...
Skill checks don't follow the critical success/critical failure rules that attacks and saves do. If you have a +5 modifier and rolled a 20, you know exactly the same amount as the guy who has a +24 modifier and rolled a 1.
So your NPC probably knows what Formians are, for whatever reason, and maybe knows a fact or two that will help defeat them. But unless he has a +10 modifier or higher, it's still in the realm of general knowledge.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-17, 03:18 PM
Natural 20 and natural 1 doesn't mean anything for skill rolls. It only applies to attack and save rolls.

The Witch-King
2011-12-17, 06:00 PM
Aww--but that's not fun. I would have the nameless guy be some old man who happened to be a retired adventurer who'd fought formians his whole life...

Haedrian
2011-12-17, 06:14 PM
Aww--but that's not fun. I would have the nameless guy be some old man who happened to be a retired adventurer who'd fought formians his whole life...

Until he took an arrow to th-

No I can't do it.
---

Joking aside, I'd personally hate to have to change a background just because of one roll. If he's a retired adventurer then he probably has more stories/knowledge, and knows how to handle a sword or whatever - and could help with the escort.

Maybe he was reading a book on them during his travels or somethign minor like that.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-17, 06:15 PM
You could do that (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/checkfortraps/8878-The-Secret-Art-of-Abduction), but RAW, assuming 3,X, it don't mean squat.

The Witch-King
2011-12-17, 07:08 PM
Thanks so much for the link--that was a great article!

deuxhero
2011-12-17, 08:05 PM
One exception is natural 1s on UMD checks.

Remember that if there were auto succesus, you could jump ~20 times and hit any place you want.

Aron Times
2011-12-17, 09:39 PM
One exception is natural 1s on UMD checks.

Remember that if there were auto succesus, you could jump ~20 times and hit any place you want.
Or you could use the same old argument ~20 times and succeed in persuading someone.

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Ravens_cry
2011-12-17, 09:47 PM
Or trying to Jump to the moon succeeds about 5% of the time.
Who needs NASA?:smalltongue:

Calanon
2011-12-17, 10:59 PM
Or while were at it we could just cure cancer with a heal check with a 5% chance of getting it right with each attempt :smallbiggrin:

Techsmart
2011-12-18, 12:11 AM
Or trying to Jump to the moon succeeds about 5% of the time.
Who needs NASA?:smalltongue:

I can see it now: "You need to jump more kids! you aren't gonna get that candy until you make it faster than armstrong. Oh, and don't forget these heavy tools those astronauts need. Don't worry, they won't hamper your jump check enough to change your chances."

As said, nat 20's only apply on certain things, and skills aren't one of them. If you did want to do nat 20's meaning something for skills, I would do the same as I do with saves (note: I know this isn't RAW, but I like it this way for saves): A nat 20 is treated as though they got a +5 circumstance bonus. If a commoner with a +5 knowledge check got a nat 20, he would get a result of 30. Maybe he saw one before in a book, or he just so happened to fight one before. who knows.

GolemsVoice
2011-12-18, 04:48 PM
Well, maybe the old man is a storyteller, and knows many a tale about the dangers of the desert? Or he's a former caravan guard, or he worked somewhere where he got to read a lot of books, and so on.

Serpentine
2011-12-19, 12:58 AM
As mentioned several times, RAW in D&D3.5 there is no "critical success" on skill checks. In my games, though, a natural 20 counts as a +30, while a natural 1 counts as a -10 (so if you have a +10 modifier, a nat 20 = 40, while a nat 1 = 0).

If you do consider it to be a Critical Success in your game, or it just comes out incredibly high, what I'd do is tell the player "you know pretty much everything there is to know about this thing. Explain to me how you know it." - let them decide if they just read a whole book on formians while they were stuck on the loo with The Otyugh Gurgles, or if they lived with a rogue formian for a while, or if they heard about them from this old guy that one time.

edit: Oh, NPC. I guess you get to decide, then.

jackattack
2011-12-19, 07:18 AM
A skill roll result doesn't necessarily represent the actual depth and/or breadth of a character's knowledge or skill, it represents a character's ability to recall that knowledge or use that skill at a given moment.

In a non-combat situation, the NPC might not have needed to make a roll to recall the knowledge. It's kind of like watching Jeopardy (and rattling off correct answers to half of the questions) and being on Jeopardy (and not being able to remember your own name because of the lights and the audience and the cameras).

So I would say that the natural 20 (if you are using that rule for skill rolls) allows the NPC to recall everything the NPC knows about Formians -- however much or little that might be.

-----

You could also take the position that the natural 20 does represent specific knowledge, but handwave how the NPC knows it.

After all, plenty of people know very specific bits of rather esoteric information for all sorts of reasons. Some people know the birthdays of Presidents or historical figures or celebrities because they have the same birthday. Some people know the atomic weight of one particular element because they missed it on a science test. Some people know random facts about animals because they read about them as children and it just kind of stuck. And so on, ad infinitum.

So the NPC knows the answer, but as trivia rather than training.

hewhosaysfish
2011-12-19, 07:27 AM
Another point to note is that in 3.5, unless you are trained in a particular Knowledge skill then you can't beat higher than a DC10 . It's like a softer version of the "Trained Only" restriction that only applies to Knowledges.

Since the DC to identify a creature is 10+HD then your NPC probably can't identify Formians. (Or horses, for that matter - play by strict RAW at your own risk. :smallbiggrin: )

An Enemy Spy
2011-12-21, 11:50 PM
Well, maybe the old man is a storyteller, and knows many a tale about the dangers of the desert? Or he's a former caravan guard, or he worked somewhere where he got to read a lot of books, and so on.

He's actually a young man and a current caravan guard. Maybe if he didn't end up getting stabbed by a wererat he could become the greatest repository of Formian knowledge the world has ever known though.

Aron Times
2011-12-22, 08:02 AM
THE SHARK IS A SPY!!!!!

GENTLEMEN.

Sorry, just noticed what your username was.

Crazy Idea: Maybe the NPC is a retired spy with elven blood to explain his youthful looks?

Jay R
2011-12-22, 11:40 AM
When I'm running the game, a 20 is that kind of circumstance indicates the best possible reasonable answer that improves the game. (What does "reasonable" mean in this context? What the top 5% of people might know, but not the top 1%.) A random NPC won't be the world's leading authority on Formians, and certainly won't know all their history, but his grandfather may have fought one once, and told him the action that killed him.