[3.5] Incarnum Questions

[Psyren]

I read through MoI again in detail (as well as the Incarnum/Incarnate handbooks), and while I finally understand the system, I have a bunch more questions that I was hoping the board’s incarnum experts could help me with.

Some are open-ended, so I made a separate thread rather than stick them all in the RAW thread. Here goes:




1a) If you shape a Planar Chasuble and a Planar Ward, bind the latter, then punch yourself, do you end up on a different plane?
1b) If so, how do you determine which one?

2) What exactly does the Heart bind for Lifebond Vestments do?

3) Are any of the Necrocarnum soulmelds worth it, besides possibly Mantle?

4) If you can’t cast illusion spells, is there any reason to shape Illusion Veil instead of Keeneye Lenses?

5) Is there any way to increase the bonus granted by Lucky Dice?

6) Are there any good ways to optimize a Soulspark Familiar?

7) Is there an easy way (besides torching an anthill) for a Necrocarnate/Vivicarnate to replenish its essentia each morning? Say, a low-level Calling/Reanimation spell that it could UMD with Mage's Spectacles, and then kill the resulting creature?

8) Do Totem Giant RHD stack with Totemist levels? (The text isn’t clear.)

9) If you start as an incarnum base class, gain access to a given tier of chakra binds, then enter a meldshaping PrC that gives you the same tier, is this wasted? For instance - if I gain access to my Hands chakra as an Incarnate 4, then later PrC into Ironsoul Forgemaster for 3 levels (accessing my Hands chakra again), does this do anything additional?

10) I heard tell of some soulmelds in an issue of Dragon Magazine somewhere. Totemist melds were mentioned as being in... Dragon #350? Are there any more, particularly for the Incarnate?

[Glimbur]

1a) If you shape a Planar Chasuble and a Planar Ward, bind the latter, then punch yourself, do you end up on a different plane?
1b) If so, how do you determine which one?

The Planar Chasuble does not make you non-native, so you don't banish yourself. The planar ward is an interesting way to Planeshift to your home plane, but by 14th level clerics and wizards can both planeshift via the spell.



2) What exactly does the Heart bind for Lifebond Vestments do?
There are disagreements on this one. It might relieve the requirement of touching creatures to heal them. It might relieve the requirement of healing a particular creature no more than once per hour.


3) Are any of the Necrocarnum soulmelds worth it, besides possibly Mantle?
The circlet gets you a disposable minion. A new minion is only a suitable body and a full round action away. Necrocanum Zombies have an int score, so they get skills and feats. There aren't rules on who gets to pick them.

The mantle is pretty pants, honestly. Diseases and poisons aren't a big deal, generally.

The Shroud gives small bonuses if you're in melee, the Soul bind is like enervation at will on touch but at 19th level, the waist can be stacked for stacking fear effects.

Necrocarnum Touch's damage grows better than Lighting Gauntlets, but it works on living things only and starts a die behind. The die size pulls ahead when you can put 4 essentia in a soulmeld, but you should have better things to do by then (like binding dissolving spittle to your throat).

The vestments are ok; [death] and stunning are annoying as is cold damage. Waist bind is terribad.

Necrocarnum Weapon lets you strike as [Evil], adds a touch of bonus damage, and the hand bind is pretty bad.

Overall they're not something you could focus on exclusively, but most of them have their uses.


4) If you can’t cast illusion spells, is there any reason to shape Illusion Veil instead of Keeneye Lenses?
Nope.



5) Is there any way to increase the bonus granted by Lucky Dice?
Not that I know of. Kind of disappointing.


6) Are there any good ways to optimize a Soulspark Familiar?
Not really. The tiny radius they are allowed to be in near you is pretty limiting.


7) Is there an easy way (besides torching an anthill) for a Necrocarnate/Vivicarnate to replenish its essentia each morning? Say, a low-level Calling/Reanimation spell that it could UMD with Mage's Spectacles, and then kill the resulting creature?
Summoning spells don't leave a corpse behind, which you know. The anthill is workable... I suggest instead talking to your DM and getting a fix for the class. I have written one, others have as well.


8) Do Totem Giant RHD stack with Totemist levels? (The text isn’t clear.)
Good question! RAW it would seem not, which is silly.


9) If you start as an incarnum base class, gain access to a given tier of chakra binds, then enter a meldshaping PrC that gives you the same tier, is this wasted? For instance - if I gain access to my Hands chakra as an Incarnate 4, then later PrC into Ironsoul Forgemaster for 3 levels (accessing my Hands chakra again), does this do anything additional?
It's a waste. This is one of my complaints with Incarnum PrCs.


10) I heard tell of some soulmelds in an issue of Dragon Magazine somewhere. Totemist melds were mentioned as being in... Dragon #350? Are there any more, particularly for the Incarnate?

Dragon Magic has a few soulmelds. There's another book which does also, I'll rely on the ninjas to tell you that one.

[Big Fau]

1a) If you shape a Planar Chasuble and a Planar Ward, bind the latter, then punch yourself, do you end up on a different plane?
1b) If so, how do you determine which one?

You're still a native of whatever plane you are actually from, so the effect does nothing.


2) What exactly does the Heart bind for Lifebond Vestments do?

The Healing ability of the soulmeld is limited to 1/hour/creature. This turns it into an at-will healing ability.

It's actually a really good healing ability. You restore someone up to full, then restore yourself up to 1 below you max. You then repeat this for every injured party member, and then use a CMW wand charge to heal yourself up to full. Dramatically reduces healing costs.


3) Are any of the Necrocarnum soulmelds worth it, besides possibly Mantle?

Not really. Depending on how your DM reads the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat, you may have to spend a feat just to shape them (although I think the intent was to allow CN/LN meldshapers the option of shaping Necrocarnum melds).


4) If you can’t cast illusion spells, is there any reason to shape Illusion Veil instead of Keeneye Lenses?

No, that soulmeld was intended for Soulcasters. Incidentally, Soulcaster and Shadowcraft Mage go really well together thanks to Midnight Metamagic.


5) Is there any way to increase the bonus granted by Lucky Dice?

No. They're a fun meld, but not very valuable.


6) Are there any good ways to optimize a Soulspark Familiar?

You'd have to ask Person_Man or Sinfire for that.


8) Do Totem Giant RHD stack with Totemist levels? (The text isn’t clear.)

I think it was intended to stack, but the book was never errata'ed (being that it was at the tail-end of 3.5).


9) If you start as an incarnum base class, gain access to a given tier of chakra binds, then enter a meldshaping PrC that gives you the same tier, is this wasted?

Tragically, yes. I'd ask the DM to get cumulative Chakra progressions the effects that the Open CHakra feats have (thus you'd get the +1 bonus on Climb and Swim checks, not that it does much for you).

[Psyren]

Thanks for the quick replies!


The Planar Chasuble does not make you non-native, so you don't banish yourself.


You're still a native of whatever plane you are actually from, so the effect does nothing.

I know you're both in agreement on this, but I'm still not sure. The Chasuble explicitly makes you [extraplanar] while you're on the Material; can you be native to a plane and extraplanar from it at the same time? Also, how would a Dismissal spell affect you?


The Healing ability of the soulmeld is limited to 1/hour/creature. This turns it into an at-will healing ability.

It's actually a really good healing ability. You restore someone up to full, then restore yourself up to 1 below you max. You then repeat this for every injured party member, and then use a CMW wand charge to heal yourself up to full. Dramatically reduces healing costs.

Oh, clever :smallsmile:

Is there a way to get it on your Arms and Heart at the same time, so you can heal this way from range?



Not really. The tiny radius they are allowed to be in near you is pretty limiting.

Hmm... Wouldn't Share Soulmeld work with them?
Sure, they don't satisfy the prereqs - but if you have another familiar/companion/etc. that does, you could use that to qualify and then share with your other "familiar."


Summoning spells don't leave a corpse behind, which you know. The anthill is workable... I suggest instead talking to your DM and getting a fix for the class. I have written one, others have as well.

Damn. Was hoping for a RAW+self-sufficient solution, even a convoluted one.
If anyone's come up with anything (even a cheap calling effect for a low-level sacrifice that I could UMD) I would go for that.
I'll take a look at those fixes though.

[Big Fau]

Oh, clever :smallsmile:

Is there a way to get it on your Arms and Heart at the same time, so you can heal this way from range?

Only the Totemist is capable of binding to one soulmeld to two chakra slots.


Hmm... Wouldn't Share Soulmeld work with them?
Sure, they don't satisfy the prereqs - but if you have another familiar/companion/etc. that does, you could use that to qualify and then share with your other "familiar."

You couldn't use the feat with the Soulspark (or you wouldn't want to seeing as they only have two body slots, according to Chapter 7's opening rules), but you could share the Soulspark Familiar soulmeld itself with your familiar.

The best way to make the Soulspark more useful is to point out that it is nigh useless, and ask your DM to let invested essentia increase the range of it's little laser by 5ft/essentia or so (possibly more). Barring that, reflavor the Incarnate's Dissolving Spittle soulmeld.

[Person_Man]

I'll try not to duplicate answers - I apologize if there is unintentional overlap.


3) Are any of the Necrocarnum soulmelds worth it, besides possibly Mantle?

Necrocarnum Circlet is one of the most powerful chakra binds in the game, because it grants you an easily replaceable Necrocarnum zombie (which is superior to a normal zombie), and you get access to it as early as level 2.

Necrocarnum Mantle gives immunity to Disease and Poison (when bound) and improves your Saves vs. Mind Effecting (with essentia), and is thus situationally useful against certain enemies.

Necrocarnum Shroud gives an ok Fear aura when bound. Fear effects from different sources stack, so it's a good way to keep mooks away from you.

Necrocarnum Touch gives you a Sleight of Hand and Bluff bonus. Sleight of Hand is useful if you want to take an enemy's spell pouch or quiver or potions or whatever, which can be done with a free action if your check is high enough. Bluff is useful for a variety of purposes.

Necrocarnum Weapon gives you a minor damage and crit confirmation bonus, and can grant temporary essentia when you crit (when bound). So you're basically trading a chakra bind for bonus essentia = your essentia capacity (ie, one extra "full" soulmeld) which can be worthwhile for a variety of reasons.

Necrocarnum Vestments give you immunity to Stun and Death effects (when bound), which is situationally useful.

Also, the Necrocarnate (a great PrC for a variety of reasons) eventually gets +1 essentia capacity on Necrocarnum soulmelds, making them more worthwhile for him.

On balance though, I would generally only use the Necrocarnum Circlet on a regular basis, and would only use the others in very specific circumstances.



4) If you can’t cast illusion spells, is there any reason to shape Illusion Veil instead of Keeneye Lenses?

Keep in mind that you also have access to Mage's Spectacles and Elder Spirit. So wands a very viable option. If you go this route, you should also find any wand/spell that deals damage as a Swift or free action, and improve it with Arcane Focus (Save or Daze).



6) Are there any good ways to optimize a Soulspark Familiar?

It acts on your turn as a free action, deals (minor) damage as a touch attack, gives your enemies another target (potentially splitting their attacks), is somewhat difficult to kill, can be used as a Flanking buddy, has Perfect flight and 10+ Str (which means you can tie yourself to it and use it to fly or as a parachute), and grants the Alertness feat. So by itself it's somewhat handy to have around, especially at low levels, since the weakest version does not require a chakra bind to use.

A nice DM will also allow you to count your Soulspark Familiar for use with the Share Soulmeld feat, which allows your Familiar or Animal Companion to benefit from your soulmelds. (Doubling the damage output from Dissolving Spittle, giving you a second Necrocarnum Zombie, etc). But technically it's not a Familiar, so if you want to go that route by RAW you'll need at least one level of Sorcerer or Wizard.



7) Is there an easy way (besides torching an anthill) for a Necrocarnate/Vivicarnate to replenish its essentia each morning? Say, a low-level Calling/Reanimation spell that it could UMD with Mage's Spectacles, and then kill the resulting creature?

As previously mentioned, you could bind Necrocarnum Weapon and use a high crit weapon.

You can buy livestock or pets, which are generally cheap, and kill a few off each morning as needed.

You can have an ally cast Incarnum Apotheosis on you, or buy a wand of Soul Boon. (Spell in MoI pg 100ish).

Though I would say that in general, all you need to do is shape and bind a mixture of soulmelds - some require high essentia to be useful, some don't. Just fighting normally a Necrocarnate will generally have full essentia after 1 or 2 combats, so it's not really that big of a deal if you start out with minimal essentia.

[Big Fau]

A nice DM will also allow you to count your Soulspark Familiar for use with the Share Soulmeld feat, which allows your Familiar or Animal Companion to benefit from your soulmelds. (Doubling the damage output from Dissolving Spittle, giving you a second Necrocarnum Zombie, etc).

Incorrect sir:


Amorphous Body: A creature with no limbs, head, or discernable anatomical structure (such as a mimic), has access to only two chakras—namely, the heart and soul.

Soulsparks are orbs of light, and have no discernable anatomical structures, and only have two chakra slots as a result.

[Psyren]

Thanks again for you guys' help. Did anyone see my followup question concerning Ward+Chasuble, in the spoiler below?


I know you're both in agreement on this, but I'm still not sure. The Chasuble explicitly makes you [extraplanar] while you're on the Material; can you be native to a plane and extraplanar from it at the same time? Also, how would a Dismissal spell affect you?


You can buy livestock or pets, which are generally cheap, and kill a few off each morning as needed.

I like this idea; even as a super-good Vivicarnate, I could slaughter animals for the party's dinner and just "happen" to store their essentia. I'll keep this one on the back-burner.



On balance though, I would generally only use the Necrocarnum Circlet on a regular basis, and would only use the others in very specific circumstances.

Fair enough, especially since the zombie can splatter livestock for me even with no essentia.


You can have an ally cast Incarnum Apotheosis on you, or buy a wand of Soul Boon. (Spell in MoI pg 100ish).

My concern with Soul Boon is that a wand of it probably won't give me all that much essentia, but it's definitely better than nothing. Maybe a stave... then I can fake a high CL and hopefully take something out during combat.

You gave me a nice idea though: I could get a dorje of Quintessence, and activate it with my Psion's Eyes. A bag of holding full of that goop would let me store fresh corpses to harvest every morning. *Rubs hands together eagerly.*

Or maybe Gentle Repose would work too.


Though I would say that in general, all you need to do is shape and bind a mixture of soulmelds - some require high essentia to be useful, some don't. Just fighting normally a Necrocarnate will generally have full essentia after 1 or 2 combats, so it's not really that big of a deal if you start out with minimal essentia.

Agreed, the first combat is all I'm worried about. Though I could also kill some things later in the day when my melds are maxed out, resetting the 24-hour clock.


it's somewhat handy to have around, especially at low levels, since the weakest version does not require a chakra bind to use.

I'm more concerned about it occupying a chakra than being bound to one... though the weakest one does still get a smidge of DR. And you're right, it's an extra pair of eyes.



Soulsparks are orbs of light, and have no discernable anatomical structures, and only have two chakra slots as a result.

Well hmm. That certainly cuts down on the melds I can share with it.
Though I could share Chasuble with it for double the Gates/week, that's got to be worth something. (Would require pretty high levels though.)

[lunar2]

Incorrect sir:



Soulsparks are orbs of light, and have no discernable anatomical structures, and only have two chakra slots as a result.

that would be the case if the soulspark familiar was actually shaping the soulmelds themselves, but they aren't. they are gaining the benefits of your soulmelds. it doesn't matter what chakra slots they have, because the soulmelds are in your chakra slots, not theirs.

[Amphetryon]

Incorrect sir:

[insert Person_Man quote]

Soulsparks are orbs of light, and have no discernable anatomical structures, and only have two chakra slots as a result.I suspect Person_Man knew he was deviating from the RAW, which is why he prefaced it with "A nice DM would [stuff]".

[Person_Man]

RE: Soulspark Familiars: What Amphetryon and lunar2 said. By RAW, they cannot benefit from the Share Soulmelds feat, because it is not technically a familiar. If your DM hand waves that rule, then it should benefit normally from the Share Soulmelds feat, which gives your Familiar or Animal Companion "the benefits of your soulmelds" and does not require that they separately bind them. In general, it's just a poorly written Feat that potentially moves the Incarnate up dramatically in power, so obviously you need a DM ruling before you can do anything with it. Sorry if this wasn't more clear in my original post.

RE: Necrocarnates: Remember that the essentia you get from recently dead bodies lasts for 24 hours, and not "until you rest." So if you're clearing out a dungeon and need to rest (so that your party members can memorize spells) its highly likely that you'll wake up with full-ish essentia.

Also, when deciding on your Necrocarnate/Vivicarnate build, first ask yourself how much you are going to use the Necarcarnum Circlet and Vitality Belt soulmleds, which are the only two soulmelds worth using that are closely tied to your meldshaper level. (Your Necrocarnum Zombie's hit dice is equal to your meldshaper level, and the bonus hit points you gain are equal to your meldshaper level * essentia invested). If the answer is "a lot" then the best build is something close to Incarnate 7/Necrocarnate 13. If the answer is "not a lot" then you're better off with Rogue (for Skills) or Sorcerer (for Familiar, see above) 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 4/Necrocarnate 13. This will give you a lot more versatility, at the cost of nerfing 2 (really good) soulmelds.

[Psyren]

that would be the case if the soulspark familiar was actually shaping the soulmelds themselves, but they aren't. they are gaining the benefits of your soulmelds. it doesn't matter what chakra slots they have, because the soulmelds are in your chakra slots, not theirs.

Hey, yeah! Their usefulness shot up again! :smallsmile:


I suspect Person_Man knew he was deviating from the RAW, which is why he prefaced it with "A nice DM would [stuff]".

I don't think it's a deviation from the RAW though. The feat's qualifications require "familiar, animal companion or mount with whom you can share spells" - however, the feat itself doesn't specify which familiar or familiars you can share with.



RE: Necrocarnates: Remember that the essentia you get from recently dead bodies lasts for 24 hours, and not "until you rest." So if you're clearing out a dungeon and need to rest (so that your party members can memorize spells) its highly likely that you'll wake up with full-ish essentia.

Hence my keeping a bag of quintessence around - I can toss corpses in after combat is over, and slurp their essentia right before bed :smallbiggrin:

Or I could just be sure to nom on the last corpses we fought for the day, as it's very unlikely it'll be 24h until the next fight. I could even do it to a fallen party member, it's not like it prevents resurrection :smallwink:


*snip*
Also, when deciding on your Necrocarnate/Vivicarnate build, first ask yourself how much you are going to use the Necarcarnum Circlet and Vitality Belt soulmleds, which are the only two soulmelds worth using that are closely tied to your meldshaper level. (Your Necrocarnum Zombie's hit dice is equal to your meldshaper level, and the bonus hit points you gain are equal to your meldshaper level * essentia invested). If the answer is "a lot" then the best build is something close to Incarnate 7/Necrocarnate 13. If the answer is "not a lot" then you're better off with Rogue (for Skills) or Sorcerer (for Familiar, see above) 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 4/Necrocarnate 13. This will give you a lot more versatility, at the cost of nerfing 2 (really good) soulmelds.

I'm fine with nerfing those two slightly in order to gain another chakra (i.e. Totem), thus gaining access to all of them pre-epic. But I'm confused about exactly how many chakra binds the Necrocarnate gets. It doesn't progress the number of chakra binds you get from the base class (compare to e.g. Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), which does) but does get a small number of "extra chakra binds" as well as its new tiers of binds. The wording seems to indicate those new bind tiers are themselves additional chakra binds but I'm not 100% certain.

As for sorcerer, I'll probably go Bard instead for the skill points, and Obtain Familiar for the feat. That way I'd have more skill points at first level, plus max UMD to go with my glasses.

Or I might just do Totemist 2/Incarnate 5 or something.

[Fouredged Sword]

Immunity to poison has the nitch use of makeing you immune to trollbane on a weapon bypassing your regeneration. Useful if you are building a TO unkillable ikea monster, nit much use otherwise.

[Person_Man]

Hence my keeping a bag of quintessence around - I can toss corpses in after combat is over, and slurp their essentia right before bed :smallbiggrin:

Just remember that your Harvest Soul ability a corpse of a living creature who has been dead for no more then one hour per Necrocarnate level. So at lower levels going to bed with a bag full of bodies isn't very useful, though it's definitely a good strategy at higher levels.

Also be sure to pick up the Heart of Incarnum soulmeld when you can (17th level or 20th level), as it adds bonus hit points equal to your essentia pool (potentially a huge number for the Necrocarnate).


But I'm confused about exactly how many chakra binds the Necrocarnate gets. It doesn't progress the number of chakra binds you get from the base class (compare to e.g. Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), which does) but does get a small number of "extra chakra binds" as well as its new tiers of binds. The wording seems to indicate those new bind tiers are themselves additional chakra binds but I'm not 100% certain.

Yeah, the wording is weird. The number of additional soulmelds, which chakra slots are opened (capable of being bound), and new charka binds (additional binds each day) are each gained seperately. It's written that way because the Necrocarnate is unique, in that it progresses any Meldshaper level that you possess. Thus a Totemist/Incarnate/Necrocarnate can interchangeably shape/bind Totemist or Incarnate soulmelds and chakra binds. You could theoretically go Soulborn/Totemist/Incarnate if you really wanted to use the 2ish good Soulborn soulmelds (though I wouldn't suggest it).


As for sorcerer, I'll probably go Bard instead for the skill points, and Obtain Familiar for the feat. That way I'd have more skill points at first level, plus max UMD to go with my glasses.

I'm AFB right now. But doesn't Obtain Familiar have a minimum caster level? Thus you'd have to go Bard 3/Incarnate 3/Necrocarnate X, giving up your Totemist levels? I can't remember.

[Psyren]

Just remember that your Harvest Soul ability a corpse of a living creature who has been dead for no more then one hour per Necrocarnate level. So at lower levels going to bed with a bag full of bodies isn't very useful, though it's definitely a good strategy at higher levels.

That's what the Quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm) is for :smallsmile: it stops the clock, i.e. from the perspective of the corpse no time has passed between entry and extrication. I can therefore keep corpses in it fresh indefinitely (not just biologically, but temporally as well.) In other words, it will be as though they had just died even if I pull them out a week later. And The best part is that "manifesting it" from a dorje via my Psion's Eyes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) meld won't affect me at all, because I'm not using power points to do so (as Dorjes use charges rather than PP), and the Quintessence will last forever once created.


Yeah, the wording is weird. The number of additional soulmelds, which chakra slots are opened (capable of being bound), and new charka binds (additional binds each day) are each gained seperately. It's written that way because the Necrocarnate is unique, in that it progresses any Meldshaper level that you possess. Thus a Totemist/Incarnate/Necrocarnate can interchangeably shape/bind Totemist or Incarnate soulmelds and chakra binds. You could theoretically go Soulborn/Totemist/Incarnate if you really wanted to use the 2ish good Soulborn soulmelds (though I wouldn't suggest it).

Yeah, the Soulborn melds were really underwhelming to me, though I could take another look through. If I really wanted a unique one I'd probably just grab it via feat. (And when I got tired of it, shape my Psion's Eyes again to PsyReform myself.)


I'm AFB right now. But doesn't Obtain Familiar have a minimum caster level? Thus you'd have to go Bard 3/Incarnate 3/Necrocarnate X, giving up your Totemist levels? I can't remember.

3, but Bard 1 + Practiced Spellcaster can take care of that easily. I'm of the opinion that the feat expense is worth it for the 4 ranks in UMD at level 1 - I'd likely be spending a feat to get it anyway.