This Warrior vs. Wizard Thing

[Aegis013]

Alright, I, and others, see this theme of thread all the time. People trying to make melee or non-magic builds that are supposed to hopefully take down a spell-caster of some kind.

I see in all of these threads, many mentions of various potential abilities of Wizards and how X or Y would be countered. But all of this is simply conjecture, as every magic user will be somewhat different. So I had an idea:

What if we make a few fully stated spell casters with what buffs and defenses and magic items they would have on a random day, so people could have a benchmark of what they might have to fight. It'd be nice to see fully done builds at level 5, 10, 15, and 20.

What do you playgrounders think? Want to make some mages?

[gkathellar]

What optimization benchmark are you looking for?

[Aegis013]

A range of medium to high. Since that's typically what people making warriors to try to beat wizards are hoping to beat. So nothing insanely cheese-ridden, and no Pun-Pun, but a DMM cleric or an Incantatrix or whatever else would be entirely appropriate.

[gkathellar]

Okay. That sounds reasonable. I'm not promising to contribute, but if I do I'll throw together a Dread Necromancer 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Wizard 1/Contemplative 1 with Versatile Spellcaster for the ultimate in rainbow-themed spontaneous casting.

[Aegis013]

Okay. That sounds reasonable. I'm not promising to contribute, but if I do I'll throw together a Dread Necromancer 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Wizard 1/Contemplative 1 with Versatile Spellcaster for the ultimate in rainbow-themed spontaneous casting.

That would be awesome.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I will be following this thread, if it goes anywhere. everything has been theorycrafting, and though valid, it would be interesting to see a variety of actual builds.

I haven't the time to contribute, but I do find the premise interesting.

[sonofzeal]

If we want to see a real Wizard, I suppose we could try and convince Emperor Tippy to post one of his creations...... sans any of his trade secrets. He's openly stated there's a few tricks he deliberately never posts.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

If we want to see a real Wizard, I suppose we could try and convince Emperor Tippy to post one of his creations...... sans any of his trade secrets. He's openly stated there's a few tricks he deliberately never posts.

Haha... What was it... he won't post it unless he has a reliable way to defeat the build?

that guy knows the meaning of optimization for sure. :smallamused:

[gkathellar]

Oh, what Point-Buy? EDIT: And what HP rules should we assume?

Gonna go with 28-PB and average HP for now.

[Wings of Peace]

I don't plan on submitting a build at present (largely due to time constraints) but for those who are I suggest looking into the Spelldancer Prc from Magic of Faerun (especially for builds centered around persistent buffs).

Edit: Primal Scholar + Unfettered Heroism wouldn't be a bad idea either to recover the spells you persist.

[Infernalbargain]

Why is everyone being so fancy with this? Druid20 should prove the point quite well.

[Alefiend]

I wish you luck with this. I don't think it will work out, because purpose-built characters of level X are always more powerful and focused than characters played to X from level 1. Still, good luck and I'll keep an eye on this to see how it goes.

[bloodtide]

I'd love to see some of the builds.

I'm so against the idea that an optimized wizard character is so powerful. But when ever I've asked for a 'powerful build' I get the standard 'oh too busy' or 'just cast this or that'. Never a full character. Worse, a lot of the 'semi builds' use tricks where the wizard has to cast several spells...while the fighter just sits back and waits, I guess.

In the end, does a wizard really have enough feats, spells and other abilities to be so great? Can can they do both defense and offense? Can they be more then one trick ponies?

[Wings of Peace]

I wish you luck with this. I don't think it will work out, because purpose-built characters of level X are always more powerful and focused than characters played to X from level 1. Still, good luck and I'll keep an eye on this to see how it goes.

I disagree with this. Most of my caster builds are almost identical regardless of the starting level. Some feats may shuffle around in order of necessity but the actual feats I use rarely change.

[Doc Roc]

:: sighs :: I could just crack open the test of spite archives.

[Wings of Peace]

:: sighs :: I could just crack open the test of spite archives.

Only if you bring out the fight where Olo was forced to atomize himself.

[Doc Roc]

Only if you bring out the fight where Olo was forced to atomize himself.

Olo showed back up recently, actually. Didn't stay though. It was nice to say hello, I didn't realize how much I missed the sense of community around Test of Spite.

[Hirax]

I'd love to see some of the builds.

I'm so against the idea that an optimized wizard character is so powerful. But when ever I've asked for a 'powerful build' I get the standard 'oh too busy' or 'just cast this or that'. Never a full character. Worse, a lot of the 'semi builds' use tricks where the wizard has to cast several spells...while the fighter just sits back and waits, I guess.

In the end, does a wizard really have enough feats, spells and other abilities to be so great? Can can they do both defense and offense? Can they be more then one trick ponies?

The reason for that is simple. Making an optimized caster is a lot of work. Far more work than making anything that isn't a caster. That's why people don't take the time to make builds outside of a game setting, because unless you have an actual DM and people to play with, putting in that much work for an internet argument isn't worthwhile.

[Infernalbargain]

I'd love to see some of the builds.

I'm so against the idea that an optimized wizard character is so powerful. But when ever I've asked for a 'powerful build' I get the standard 'oh too busy' or 'just cast this or that'. Never a full character. Worse, a lot of the 'semi builds' use tricks where the wizard has to cast several spells...while the fighter just sits back and waits, I guess.

In the end, does a wizard really have enough feats, spells and other abilities to be so great? Can can they do both defense and offense? Can they be more then one trick ponies?

Druid20 decking out wis with a positive con mod. Take natural spell at level 6. Now we have bears riding bears while summoning bears.

[gkathellar]

I'd love to see some of the builds.

I'm so against the idea that an optimized wizard character is so powerful. But when ever I've asked for a 'powerful build' I get the standard 'oh too busy' or 'just cast this or that'. Never a full character. Worse, a lot of the 'semi builds' use tricks where the wizard has to cast several spells...while the fighter just sits back and waits, I guess.

In the end, does a wizard really have enough feats, spells and other abilities to be so great? Can can they do both defense and offense? Can they be more then one trick ponies?

The idea, in principle, is that most optimized caster builds can pull off just about any trick you can lay out the spells for.

And yes, a wizard has all the time in the world to set up on a fighter, because what is the fighter going to do, stab him? Fat chance.

[Infernalbargain]

The idea, in principle, is that most optimized caster builds can pull off just about any trick you can lay out the spells for.

And yes, a wizard has all the time in the world to set up on a fighter, because what is the fighter going to do, stab him? Fat chance.

Yeah, that's the trick to playing optimized casters. Once you realize that the wizard has the capability to dictate when the fight occurs, then the idea of "typically" prepared spells becomes an absurd notion. Using divinations, they can determine which spells would be ideal. Between all the time in the world and all the knowledge in the world, they'll have whatever is necessary to best whatever they are up against.

[bloodtide]

The reason for that is simple. Making an optimized caster is a lot of work. Far more work than making anything that isn't a caster. That's why people don't take the time to make builds outside of a game setting, because unless you have an actual DM and people to play with, putting in that much work for an internet argument isn't worthwhile.

I understand that making a character from scratch is a lot of work...I've done it hundreds of times. Still you'd think that at least a couple people would have some characters on a computer somewhere from a game within the last decade that they could just copy/paste here or link to the online character sheet.



The idea, in principle, is that most optimized caster builds can pull off just about any trick you can lay out the spells for.

And yes, a wizard has all the time in the world to set up on a fighter, because what is the fighter going to do, stab him? Fat chance.

See, this is where the 'awesome wizard build' falls apart for me. So yes, a wizard can take a couple days/weeks/years and make a perfect trap and kill a single fighter, maybe even a couple fighters. And all the wizard must do is dedicate all their time and energy to that one single goal. And, of course, the wizard needs to magically 'find' everything perfectly that they need no matter how rare or obscure.

Most optimized tricks work great for a couple minutes, but they can't go on all day, and the wizard will run out of power quick(unless your doing the 15 minute day cheat).

[Wings of Peace]

See, this is where the 'awesome wizard build' falls apart for me. So yes, a wizard can take a couple days/weeks/years and make a perfect trap and kill a single fighter, maybe even a couple fighters. And all the wizard must do is dedicate all their time and energy to that one single goal. And, of course, the wizard needs to magically 'find' everything perfectly that they need no matter how rare or obscure.

Most optimized tricks work great for a couple minutes, but they can't go on all day, and the wizard will run out of power quick(unless your doing the 15 minute day cheat).

A Wizard with a good way to Persist their buffs is going to be a threat all day everyday even while they sleep usually (especially at higher levels).

[Alefiend]

I disagree with this. Most of my caster builds are almost identical regardless of the starting level. Some feats may shuffle around in order of necessity but the actual feats I use rarely change.

Optimized builds include equipment. I have never had an organically played character with exactly the right gear, and MagicMart has never been assumed in any game I've played in more than 30 years. The only time I get perfect fits is when I create a higher-level character and can select any reasonable equipment that fits my WBL.

That said, this is going to be a test of optimized characters, not organic ones. An interesting experiment, just not wholly applicable to real play conditions (in my opinion, anyway).

[Wings of Peace]

Optimized builds include equipment. I have never had an organically played character with exactly the right gear, and MagicMart has never been assumed in any game I've played in more than 30 years. The only time I get perfect fits is when I create a higher-level character and can select any reasonable equipment that fits my WBL.

That said, this is going to be a test of optimized characters, not organic ones. An interesting experiment, just not wholly applicable to real play conditions (in my opinion, anyway).

I'll concede that in general this is probably a valid point. However, I rarely rely on gear beyond my spellbook when I play a Wizard (if that when Eidetic is allowed). Beyond stat boosters for DCs, Belt of Battle for actions, and the spellslot rings there just isn't much that matters. Rods of X are nifty I suppose but if I rely on them too much I feel like I'm wizarding wrong.

[Weezer]

Optimized builds include equipment. I have never had an organically played character with exactly the right gear, and MagicMart has never been assumed in any game I've played in more than 30 years. The only time I get perfect fits is when I create a higher-level character and can select any reasonable equipment that fits my WBL.

That said, this is going to be a test of optimized characters, not organic ones. An interesting experiment, just not wholly applicable to real play conditions (in my opinion, anyway).

The thing is that gear, while helpful, isn't integral to any wizard builds. The closest thing I can think of to "necessary" gear for any tier 1 builds is nightsticks for DMM Clerics. All tier 1 classes need is access to their spells and they are able to reach very close to their pinnacle of power, certainly high enough to beat pretty much any non-caster build.
Spells are the primary power source for full casters, nothing else.

[Wings of Peace]

For the level 20 challenge I propose our staple Wizard be a Wizard 18/Mindbender 1/Spelldancer 1. The gist of the build is to persist spells easily using Spelldancing in conjunction with Iron Heart Surge (gained via feat in order to offset the con damage and fatigue) while Mindbender allows us to gain Mindsight. Pretty straightforward, not so optimized that there's more prc than wizard going on, but also not so straightforward that we're handicapping ourselves by allowing the warrior to fully optimize while we do nothing.

I can stat out the build if people decides it sounds like an interesting staple. For now I figure just knowing the gist of it should be enough to gauge if people think it would fit the bill. If people do decide they want it statted out we'll also need to decide on whether we're allowing flaws or not.

[Fax Celestis]

Why use IHS? Use Strongheart Vest or Naberius instead.

[Aegis013]

Awesome, this thread is really taking off. I'll upload my organically played Killer Gnome (only got to level 10) build later tonight. As far as HP and point-buy goes, if you're posting here, just say what you used.

[Wings of Peace]

Why use IHS? Use Strongheart Vest or Naberius instead.

I considered it but I've seen debates spark over whether Strongheart Vest counts and wanted to avoid controversey whereas Naberius is just plain slower than IHS. For the record I too would normally just use Strongheart Vest.

Edit: Actually if it's my build anyways then screw controversy I'll just use Strongheart Vest.

[Snowbluff]

Necropolitan wouldn't get the con damage or the fatigue.

[Wings of Peace]

Necropolitan wouldn't get the con damage or the fatigue.

Necropolitan would cost me a level however unless we're allowing for an extra xp threshhold.

[Infernalbargain]

If there isn't magicmart, wizard can blow a feat on crafting and get what they need anyways.

[candycorn]

If there isn't magicmart, wizard can blow a feat on crafting and get what they need anyways.

And a wizard that starts with Craft wondrous item and a thought bottle can get twice the gear, as it'll cost half, and the XP can be negated via thought bottle.

There are other tricks, such as Level loss / Craft / Restoration, that accomplish the same effect.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You want humiliation? How about a Warlock that can do it?

Warlock6/Binder1/Mindbender1/HFW3/Legacy Champion9

Invocations of Note:

Eldritch Spear
See The Unseen
Vitriolic Blast
Eldritch Cone
Flee The Scene
Fell Flight
Dark Foresight
Retributive Invisibility

Feats of note:

Mindsight
Empower SLA
Quicken SLA
Maximize SLA

Gear of note:
Gem of Seeing (to prevent illusionary shennanigans)
Third eye: Conceal (to prevent divinations hired by the supposed warrior)

What this means:

Eat unresistable damage. If you have SR, eat acid damage. But really, you're not going to have enough SR to stop him, since he can UMD a Bead of Karma, among other tricks, to boost his CL high enough that your SR is simply not effective. He is permanently invisible, and it is a Greater Invisibility effect, and permanently has a Foresight effect. He's also always flying, so he's not even going to GET into melee with you.

Yes, he sees you before you see him. Yes, he gets to go first. Yes, he is hitting you for around 600 damage. Yes, you die now. Yes, even then.

Have a nice day.

[Hirax]

Here's Cindy (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=5890) for people's reference. Cindy isn't nearly as optimized as you might expect if you've never seen her before, she's great to use as a stepping stone if you really want to go high op. Really, all you need to do is get her great initiative and perceptions and that's enough on its own, though.

[candycorn]

Assuming Legacy champion is applied to HFW, that's 24d6 from Hellfire, and 9d6 from warlock levels. With maximize, that's 198 damage, and half of the average roll is 57.75 more, for an average of 255.75. Assuming you quicken, and shoot twice, that only averages 511.50 damage. How are you getting up to 600?

[Gavinfoxx]

There is an example conjurer and example transmuter with example magic items and prepared spells (for the Conjurer, not the Transmuter) in the wizard playing a god handbook. Maybe we should take those as written, and stat them out?

[Godskook]

@OP, you say:

But all of this is simply conjecture, as every magic user will be somewhat different.

but:


:: sighs :: I could just crack open the test of spite archives.

See, its not just conjecture. We've *ACTUALLY* already *DID* the testing a few times, to various degrees of thoroughness.

But, since you want to go through with it, here's a simple level 1 build for taking on non-dex non-magic classes(rogue, scout, factotum):

Focused Specialist Conjurer 1 with abrupt jaunt
-Precocious Apprentice
-Fiery Burst

Tactics are simple: Invisibilty to get within range, tanglefoot bag(bonus) to root target, and Fiery Burst them to death. Abrupt Jaunt for things that get a chance to get close.

[candycorn]

Optional Level 1 style build:

Focused specialist Wizard 1, Human.

Metamagic School Focus
Fell Drain.

Tactics are simple. Prepare 3 Fell Drain Sonic Snaps in level 1 slots. Spell auto hits, deals 1 damage, and 1 negative level. Fighter dead.

Alternately:

Specialist Evoker Wizard 1, Human
-Bloodline of Fire
-Sudden Silent
Flaw: Sudden Maximize
Trait: Spellgifted
ACF: Energy Affinity (Fire)
ACF: Overcome Resistance

Tactics: Sudden Maximize a CL 5 Kelgore's Firebolt. 30 Damage, Reflex half. That'll drop a fighter with an 18 Con... if it PASSES the save. On a fail? It'll drop a Raging Barbarian with a 24 Con and the diehard feat.

[kulosle]

Are we only doing wizards? I heard druid mentioned. How does any one defeat a planar shepherd? What kinda of system abuse are we talking about? Wish traps? I've said it before, but i'll mention it here. WBLmancy is the only real advantage the warrior has over the wizard. Wizards have to reserve a lot for spells. But that doesn't give enough of a boost in any way.

[candycorn]

Are we only doing wizards? I heard druid mentioned. How does any one defeat a planar shepherd? What kinda of system abuse are we talking about? Wish traps? I've said it before, but i'll mention it here. WBLmancy is the only real advantage the warrior has over the wizard. Wizards have to reserve a lot for spells. But that doesn't give enough of a boost in any way.

No, they don't. A wizard can quite easily take just the spells gained through levelups, and make quite a powerful character. Add on the various tricks to craft items for no XP, and you can effectively double your WBL.

Take this one: Attain level 18, by getting 153,000 xp. Get level drained. Lose 8,500 xp, become level 16. Spend 8,500 xp crafting, bringing you to the beginning of level 16. Get the level restored, restoring you to 136,000xp, level 17. Repeat until you've crafted all you want. Each iteration is enough for you to craft a +5 stat tome (for half cost) and then some.

So, while a fighter, at level 20, will have 720,000gp, a wizard can, without economy breaking shenanigans, have up to 1,440,000gp worth of items. (with economy breaking, use the 8500 xp to cast wish for 25,000gp worth of materials. Get Restored, and use the 25,000gp to craft 50,000gp worth of magic items. You now have as much gear as you want, legally, by RAW.)

[Helldog]

(with economy breaking, use the 8500 xp to cast wish for 25,000gp worth of materials. Get Restored, and use the 25,000gp to craft 50,000gp worth of magic items. You now have as much gear as you want, legally, by RAW.)
From what?

[molten_dragon]

My group played a very high-op game for fun awhile back. We started at (I think) level 8, and played up to 18. Here's my character for that game. He was leveled organically from 8-18. For this game in particular, our group played a bit fast and loose with the rules from time to time, since it wasn't meant to be a serious game. I've tried to clear up anything that isn't by RAW, but I may have missed a few things.

The Wizard

Keth Shrenan
Born a gnome, PAO into a sarrukh
Gnome illusionist 2 (Focused Specialist [Illusion] ACF, evocation, enchantment, abjuration banned), Master Specialist 10, Shadowcraft mage 5, Archmage 1

STR: 29 (Base 23, +8 enhancement, -2 size)
DEX: 27 (Base 15, +10 enhancement, +2 size)
CON: 24 (Base 20, +4 enhancement)
INT: 45 (Base 30, +4 from levels, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent)
WIS: 19 (15 base, +4 enhancement)
CHA: 12 (8 base, +4 enhancement)

HP: 223 (181 base, 42 temporary)
DR: 10/evil
Initiative: +8
AC: 47 (+4 armor, +2 shield, +8 dex, +1 size, +18 natural, +4 deflection), FF 39, Touch 23

Fort: +19 (+4 base, +7 ability, +6 resistance, +2 familiar)
Ref: +18 (+4 base, +8 ability, +6 resistance)
Will: +26 (+16 base, +4 ability, +6 resistance) [+5 vs. mind affecting)

BAB: +8
Attack: claw +18 (1d6+5), or bite +18 (1d4+2)

Skills: Bluff +11, Concentration +33, Craft (alchemy) +38, Hide +30, Knowledge (arcana, nature, planes, dungeoneering) +38, Listen +12, Move Silently +24, Ride +18, Spellcraft +41, Spot +10
Skill Tricks: Collector of stories, magical appraisal, swift concentration
Flaws: Noncombatant, Inattentive
Feats: Scribe scroll, spell focus (illusion), earth sense, earth spell, heighten spell, practical metamagic (heighten), skill focus (spellcraft), greater spell focus (illusion), improved shadow magic, quicken spell, arcane thesis (silent image), residual magic, leadership

Class abilities: rat familiar, cloak of shadows (60% miss chance), all illusion spells are silent, stilled, eschew materials, extended, shadow illusion, powerful shadow magic, +2 CL with illusions, silent image as SLA 2/day

Equipment: +1 mithral buckler of death ward, greater crystal of mind cloaking, continual flame ioun stone (dull grey ioun stone with continual flame cast), 3x greater human slaying arrows, portable hole, headband of intellect +6, greater third eye clarity, collar of umbral metamorphosis, +4 cloak of resistance, robe of arcane might (illusion), tunic of steady spellcasting, custom item of permanent beastland ferocity, belt of disguise, dimension stride boots, ring of arcane might, ring of counterspelling (currently greater dispel magic), orange prism ioun stone, private demiplane created through a mimicked genesis.

Contingency: otiluke's resilient sphere if HP drops below 90
Instant refuge: Transports me to my demiplane if any of the following conditions are met: My HP drop below 0, I am killed, I am unable to act normally, I am level drained, my form involuntarily changes.

Spellcasting
Caster Level: 21 (24 with illusions, 20 with conjuration)

Prepared spells
Level 0 (DC 27, Illusion 31): Silent image (heightened to 2) x6
Level 1 (DC 28, Illusion 32): Silent Image (heightened to 3) x5, nerveskitter x3, ray of clumsiness, ray of enfeeblement, benign transposition
Level 2 (DC 29, Illusion 33): Silent Image (heightened to 4) x5, invisibility, mirror image, alter self, baleful transposition, wraithstrike
Level 3 (DC 30, Illusion 34): Silent Image (heightened to 5) x5, haste x2, greater magic weapon, unluck x2
Level 4 (DC 31, Illusion 35): Silent Image (heightened to 6) x3, greater mirror image, greater invisibility, celerity x4, heart of earth
Level 5 (DC 32, Illusion 36): Silent Image (heightened to 7) x4, telekinesis, true seeing, dimension jumper, transmute mud to rock x2
Level 6 (DC 33, Illusion 37): Silent Image (heightened to 8) x4, illusory pit, brilliant blade x2, disintegrate x2
Level 7 (DC 34, Illusion 38): Silent Image (heightened to 9) x4, project image, greater teleport, plane shift, arcane spellsurge
Level 8 (DC 35, Illusion 39): Silent Image (heightened to 10) x5, ghostform, polymorph any object, veil of undeath
Level 9 (DC 36, Illusion 40): Silent Image (heightened to 11) x2, shapechange, time stop x2, wail of the banshee

All-day buffs (or enough hours to be nearly all day): Phantom steed, heart of earth, magic tattoo (+1 CL), veil of undeath, contingency, instant refuge, polymorph any object (to sarrukh), reduce person, disguise self, see invisibility, freedom of movement, true seeing, fortunate fate, blindsight, delay death, planar bubble, greater spell immunity, channeled divine shield, shield of faith, blessed aim, chasing perfection, divine agility, delay death, freedom of movement


Keth leaves his cleric cohort on his demi-plane. His only real purpose is to provide persisted buffs. I'm not doing a full stat block, only the relevant details

The Cohort

Flaws: noncombatant and pathetic (STR)
Domains: Planning and undeath
Feats: Extend spell, persist spell, practical metamagic (persist), divine metamagic (persist), extra turning x6
Abilities: WIS 24, CHA 28
Turn undead 36/day

Prepared spells: Fuse arms, remove curse, remove disease, girallon's blessing, contingent energy resistance, restoration, neutralize poison, freedom of movement, delay death, break enchantment, revivify, true seeing, divine agility, greater dispel magic, superior resistance, shield of faith, blessed aim, chasing perfection, greater restoration, harm, planar bubble, heal, regenerate, greater spell immunity, channeled divine shield, blindsight

[molten_dragon]

How does any one defeat a planar shepherd?

By breaking the game even harder. A beholder mage could probably do it. A tainted sorcerer probably could too.

[molten_dragon]

Accidental double post.

[candycorn]

From what?

UMD a scroll (800gp). Pay for spellcasting services for a Restoration spell (380gp). You're getting infinite resources. You can afford to throw a few benjamins around.

[Helldog]

UMD a scroll (800gp). Pay for spellcasting services for a Restoration spell (380gp). You're getting infinite resources. You can afford to throw a few benjamins around.
:smallannoyed:
I asked from what are you restoring yourself, not how. Don't play dumb with me. Why do you need Restoration?

[candycorn]

:smallannoyed:
I asked from what are you restoring yourself, not how. Don't play dumb with me. Why do you need Restoration?

If you look earlier in the post, the 8500xp is obtained by getting level drained from level 18 to level 17, which puts you at the XP midpoint between level 17 and 18. This means you have 8500xp to use as you see fit, reducing you to exactly the XP needed for level 17. From there, you use Restoration, and are returned to exactly level 18. Repeat as often as you want. Each cycle can net you +25,000gp and 3500xp worth of crafting xp or 8500xp worth of crafting XP/casting xp/etc.

To clarify, you asked "From what". Not from what you are restoring yourself. It's ambiguous. I was under the impression you were referring to "from what source is the restoration coming".

[Aharon]

A thorough examination at level 20: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.0

A thorough examination (not pvp, but pve) at various levels:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864514/Examples_of_overpowered_casters

The same, with a focus on the gauntlet style, less on the melee vs. caster question, 3 years later:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/23062581/Necro-thread_gauntlet_1?pg=1

[Helldog]

If you look earlier in the post, the 8500xp is obtained by getting level drained from level 18 to level 17, which puts you at the XP midpoint between level 17 and 18. This means you have 8500xp to use as you see fit, reducing you to exactly the XP needed for level 17. From there, you use Restoration, and are returned to exactly level 18. Repeat as often as you want. Each cycle can net you +25,000gp and 3500xp worth of crafting xp or 8500xp worth of crafting XP/casting xp/etc.
Except you can't restore the XP you spent on spells.

[Aharon]

@helldog

Candycorn might have made his point a bit clearer. Here's the step by step version:
1. Summon/Bind/Control an undead with the ability to drain levels.
2. Let it drain a level from you. This puts you exactly at the mipoint between levels.
3. You now have XP to spend.
4. Cast restoration. It puts you back at the minimum of the level that was drained from you, regardless of what you did in the mean time. It ignores the XP you spent on items, and, RAW, gives you back more than intended.

[Helldog]

@helldog

Candycorn might have made his point a bit clearer. Here's the step by step version:
1. Summon/Bind/Control an undead with the ability to drain levels.
2. Let it drain a level from you. This puts you exactly at the mipoint between levels.
3. You now have XP to spend.
4. Cast restoration. It puts you back at the minimum of the level that was drained from you, regardless of what you did in the mean time. It ignores the XP you spent on items, and, RAW, gives you back more than intended.
Except I am talking about him casting Wish, not crafting. You can't restore XP spent on casting spells.

[kulosle]

Well thats the question. Are we abusing the system in these kinda of ways. Is trap abuse going to far? Its hard to say whats too cheesey besides gaining epic stuff early.

[Aharon]

The important point was regardless of what you did in the mean time.
It flat out says


The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level.

It has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary. He may cast whatever he wants, Restoration restores him to ecactly that point.

[Helldog]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components

XP Cost (XP)

Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.

[Aharon]

Ah, now I get your point.

If you look at the exact wording of restoration, the Restoration doesn't restore XP, it restores the level, and states that as a consequence, the character has a certain number of XP.

I can see both ways as valid, but I think that this is an instance where specific beats general. For example, in the PHB it says that all enchantments are mind-affecting, but in a later sourcebook, a non-mind-affecting enchantment is published.

[Helldog]

Restoration restores the level and sets the XP. That is the general rule.
But here we have a specific situation where you spend XP on casting a spell. And specific rule says that you can't restore XP spent on casting spells.
Restoration works on the assumption that you lost the XP do to an effect like level draining. It normally doesn't interact with spending XP on casting.

BTW. Where does it say that level draining lowers your XP?

[Aharon]

Huh. Looking in the actual rulebook helps.


XP Cost (XP): Some powerful spells (such as wish, commune, and
miracle) entail an experience point cost to you. No spell, not even
restoration, can restore the XP lost in this manner.

No ambiguity left, you are right. I wonder what happens in candycorn's example, then.

Restoration should probably put you at (level before drain)-(XP spent on spells) in this case.

The general tactic remains workable, though - you could craft a scroll of wish, and then restore your level. It is a bit more costly in terms of gold and xp, but still possible.

[Helldog]

BTW. Rules tell me that you lower your XP if the level loss becomes permanent. What does that do with Candycorns trick?

[Yora]

Restoration does not restore any XP. It only sets the amount of XP you have to x. If x happens to be greater than the XP you originally had, restoration still sets them to x.

[Helldog]

Restoration does not restore any XP. It only sets the amount of XP you have to x. If x happens to be greater than the XP you originally had, restoration still sets them to x.
Yeah, that's most probably Candycorns primary argument.


BTW. Rules tell me that you lower your XP if the level loss becomes permanent. What does that do with Candycorns trick?
It seems that you still can restore permanently lost levels within a time limit.

[candycorn]

Huh. Looking in the actual rulebook helps.



No ambiguity left, you are right. I wonder what happens in candycorn's example, then.

Restoration should probably put you at (level before drain)-(XP spent on spells) in this case.

The general tactic remains workable, though - you could craft a scroll of wish, and then restore your level. It is a bit more costly in terms of gold and xp, but still possible.
Restoration doesn't work by giving you XP.

Restoration works in a very specific manner, outlined in the SRD.


A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.

The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level. Check. Rule followed.

Then you craft the excess XP away, followed by Restoration.


This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level.
In other words level restoration doesn't work as an XP gift. It works as a level alteration. After that, you reference the table for XP for that level, and your XP becomes that.

In other words, you're not restoring the XP lost through casting. You're restoring the level lost through level drain.

[Aharon]

@candycorn
Yep, crafting away works. However, I would posit that the section I quoted above is explicit enough to make casting spells with xp cost infeasible, since the text explicitly says xp used on casting can't be restored. You used XP on casting, they can't be restored. That you were drained of a level before is irrelevant.

[Helldog]

Are you restoring the level drain before it becomes permanent?

[candycorn]

@candycorn
Yep, crafting away works. However, I would posit that the section I quoted above is explicit enough to make casting spells with xp cost infeasible, since the text explicitly says xp used on casting can't be restored. You used XP on casting, they can't be restored. That you were drained of a level before is irrelevant.
The XP is not being "restored". Restoration of a level does not grant a specific amount of XP. It gives you a level.

Therefore:
I am level 18. My XP total is 153,000. I get hit by a vampire, and gain 2 negative levels. The next day, I fail both saves. Each level lost applies one at a time. The first reduces my level to 17, and sets my XP at 144,500. The second reduces my level to 16, and sets my XP at 128,000.

I get a Restoration spell cast. My level returns to level 17, and my XP is set to 136,000 (exactly enough to be level 17). I then get another cast. My level returns to 18, and my XP is set to 153,000 (exactly enough to be level 18). At no time is XP gained or lost. It is simply set to specific levels, without regard to previous total. That is important.

The restoration spell cannot restore XP spent on crafting.
However, it CAN restore levels lost due to energy drain.

The latter is what we're doing. And we're following every rule to do so. If our XP total is altered between the level loss and the restoration, that's irrelevant, because the current XP total is never referenced in the process of gaining the level. It's an aftereffect of it.

You are seeing Restoration as restoring the level by granting you XP sufficient to gain a level. It's not. It's granting you the level itself, which sets your XP at the minimum required for that level. You can't piece out bits of that level, saying that it only gives 73% of the level. It gives 1 level.

While levels are usually gained as a result of gaining experience, in this case, XP is determined as a result of gaining a level. In other words, the cause and effect are reversed.


Are you restoring the level drain before it becomes permanent?
There's more than one way to look at that question. You're restoring the lost level after it converts from a negative level to a lost level, but within the time frame set out in the Restoration spell (1 day per caster level) for restoration.


This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level.The level drain is permanent, but reversible. Much like a Permanencied spell may be dispelled.

[Aharon]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

It doesn't give you a level, it gives you back a specific amount of XP, the amount needed for the next level. To quote the actual, not the SRD text:


This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a
creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. Thus, if a 10th-level character has been struck by a wight and drained to 9th level, restoration brings the character up to exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him to 10th level (45,000 XP), gaining him an additional Hit Die and level functions accordingly.

Since the XP spent on casting can't be restored, restoration brings the character up to that number (45.000 XP), minus those spent on casting. The spell description obviously doesn't cite every edge case. For example, if you were drained and then killed, and brought back via resurrection, only the level loss because of the drain would be restored, not the loss caused by the ressurection. This interaction is described in the spell description of resurrection and not repeated in restoration.

[Helldog]

In this case you can only craft items worth X x 1000gp where X is your Caster Level.
Why? Because crafting takes time and you have a limited time to restore the permanent level loss.

[olentu]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

It doesn't give you a level, it gives you back a specific amount of XP, the amount needed for the next level. To quote the actual, not the SRD text:



Since the XP spent on casting can't be restored, restoration brings the character up to that number (45.000 XP), minus those spent on casting. The spell description obviously doesn't cite every edge case. For example, if you were drained and then killed, and brought back via resurrection, only the level loss because of the drain would be restored, not the loss caused by the ressurection. This interaction is described in the spell description of resurrection and not repeated in restoration.

Oh well that bolded quote does not really support your position as it does not say that it restores XP.

[Aharon]

@olentu
Maybe there's a problem because I'm not a native speaker, but how is bringing somebody up to the xp necessary to restore the level different from restoring the XP?

[Helldog]

The spell says that it restores your experience level. If your argument is that it's not the same as restoring XP then we can only agree to disagree.

[candycorn]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

It doesn't give you a level, it gives you back a specific amount of XP, the amount needed for the next level. To quote the actual, not the SRD text:

This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained.It doesn't restore a level, eh?


Since the XP spent on casting can't be restored, restoration brings the character up to that number (45.000 XP), minus those spent on casting. The spell description obviously doesn't cite every edge case. For example, if you were drained and then killed, and brought back via resurrection, only the level loss because of the drain would be restored, not the loss caused by the ressurection. This interaction is described in the spell description of resurrection and not repeated in restoration.Correct. Because Resurrection states that the level loss cannot be repaired. Not the experience. And since Restoration restores levels that are lost, it follows that levels lost due to that spell cannot be restored, it stands to reason that Restoration won't work for the same reason a mind-affecting spell doesn't work on a skeleton.

I think we will have to agree to disagree, because regardless of what was spent, not spent, or what have you, the Level is what is restored, not the XP.

This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. Thus, if a 10th-level character has been struck by a wight and drained to 9th level, restoration brings the character up to exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him to 10th level (45,000 XP), gaining him an additional Hit Die and level functions accordingly.Bolded text is the function of the ability. Underlined text is an example (i.e. not the function).

"Restores one experience level to a character who has had a level drained". -function.

Has character had a level drained? Yes
Increase level by +1, provided the level is one that was previously obtained (restore means you must have had it to begin with), and within the time frame allotted.

[Aharon]

@candycorn
OK, I used imprecise wording. I'm sorry for that, I'll try to clarify:

I disagree that the text is workable without the example. You flat out can't restore a level without restoring XP. That would be meaningless. Each Level in D&D is (barring special cases like LA etc., about which we aren't talking here), inseparably linked to a certain range of XP. If you don't restore XP, you can't restore a level. Thus, the spell restores XP. It can't restore XP lost as XP costs, thus it doesn't.

[olentu]

@olentu
Maybe there's a problem because I'm not a native speaker, but how is bringing somebody up to the xp necessary to restore the level different from restoring the XP?

Well the difference is that giving someone new stuff is not the same as restoring the old stuff. The old stuff remains lost and new stuff is gained. It is not restoring the old XP any more then XP increase due to winning an encounter is restoring the lost XP.

[Aharon]

@olentu
But it's not new stuff. You can't restore a level you never had.

[The Glyphstone]

To dump more gasoline on this fire, do you spend XP when you begin crafting an item, or when you finish it? Items take time to craft (even subjective time), and 24 hours after you've gained a negative level (unless it expires early), you have to either get it Restored or roll your Fort save to get it back/lose it permanently. It takes a minimum of 1 day to make any item, even a potion, so if the experience is 'spent' upon completion, at best you could corner the potions market, but not churn out infinite Wish scrolls unless I missed something.

[olentu]

@olentu
But it's not new stuff. You can't restore a level you never had.

Er what. You are going to need to elaborate on what you are talking about because I seem to have lost the thread of your argument completely.

[Aharon]

Well, you can only cast restoration if you have been drained of a level. It restores a level, by bringing your XP total back up - restoring XP.

[olentu]

Well, you can only cast restoration if you have been drained of a level. It restores a level, by bringing your XP total back up - restoring XP.

Ok so that still does not explain in a way I can understand your previous statement but whatever.


Allow me to ask this question, if one is level drained and then wins encounters does the XP gain from doing that count as restoring XP in your opinion.

[candycorn]

To dump more gasoline on this fire, do you spend XP when you begin crafting an item, or when you finish it? Items take time to craft (even subjective time), and 24 hours after you've gained a negative level (unless it expires early), you have to either get it Restored or roll your Fort save to get it back/lose it permanently. It takes a minimum of 1 day to make any item, even a potion, so if the experience is 'spent' upon completion, at best you could corner the potions market, but not churn out infinite Wish scrolls unless I missed something.

You missed something. Restoration works on permanently lost levels (after the 24 hour time limit), as long as the spell is cast within 1 day per caster level.

So, if you were to make a scroll of wish, it would normally take 29 days. With the Exceptional Artisan feat, that would be reduced to 22 days.

If you used Greater Restoration, it would be 1 week per caster level, so considerably more time is possible.

[Helldog]

To dump more gasoline on this fire, do you spend XP when you begin crafting an item, or when you finish it? Items take time to craft (even subjective time), and 24 hours after you've gained a negative level (unless it expires early), you have to either get it Restored or roll your Fort save to get it back/lose it permanently. It takes a minimum of 1 day to make any item, even a potion, so if the experience is 'spent' upon completion, at best you could corner the potions market, but not churn out infinite Wish scrolls unless I missed something.
You can still restore level loss after it becomes permanent, if you do it before it becomes permanently permanent... Just read Restoration spells description.

[Aharon]

No, that's gaining XP. He wouldn't have any benefit from a restoration cast after gaining enough XP to get back to the level he previously had, IMO.

Which statement by me did you not understand?

[olentu]

No, that's gaining XP. He wouldn't have any benefit from a restoration cast after gaining enough XP to get back to the level he previously had, IMO.

Which statement by me did you not understand?

And the thing is restoration is just another method of gaining XP. Since it does not say that it is restoring XP it can not be assumed that it must be doing so.


The statement that "But it's not new stuff. You can't restore a level you never had." is what was not entirely clear.

[Aharon]

I would say that a spell that

a) is called "Restoration"
and
b) only works when it restores a level by changing (restoring) your XP total
and
c) doesn't work when you gained the level again via other XP-gaining methods

clearly isn't just another method of gaining XP.

[olentu]

I would say that a spell that

a) is called "Restoration"
and
b) only works when it restores a level by changing (restoring) your XP total
and
c) doesn't work when you gained the level again via other XP-gaining methods

clearly isn't just another method of gaining XP.

A method with some restrictions about when it applies to be sure but that can be said about anything. It does not however say that it is restoring XP.

[candycorn]

I would say that a spell that

a) is called "Restoration"
and
b) only works when it restores a level by changing (restoring) your XP total
and
c) doesn't work when you gained the level again via other XP-gaining methods

clearly isn't just another method of gaining XP.

Fixed that for you. It restores your Level, by the written function. Examples are not rules. They're examples. You're citing an example to justify a rule, and that is not valid.

[Legendairy]

Just curious as to how this would work then. If you gain XP after being level drained from whatever source, monsters, rping etc. do you gain more than the minimum? Because by the logic that it gives XP you would have more than the MINIMUM to reach that level? So by the spells wording if you gain enough xp to be 100 xp away from leveling it wouldnt matter you would only gain 100 xp, by some of the other ways of reading into it you would gain 45000 and actually be higher than you were(more than likely)when the level drain incured.

Also by the logic of it actually RESTORING you could gain your level back then get restoration cast to actually restore the lost XP and possible gain another level. I mean you already had the XP and if it is actually restoring lost XP then it could in fact gain you a level you did not have, that way of reading it could lead to sooo many bad implications.

[Aharon]

@candycorn
Are you seriously arguing that there is any case where the level is restored without the xp? Without the example, you don't know how it works. The exact number (the minimum necessary for the level) is stated as part of the example. This makes the example a necessary part of the rules text.

@olentu
It doesn't say it is a way of gaining XP, and in the DMG, gaining XP is pretty clearly defined as rewards for encounters, not as result of casting spells. Why should this spell deviate from the general rule that xp gain is caused by winning encounters without mentioning that?

[The Glyphstone]

You missed something. Restoration works on permanently lost levels (after the 24 hour time limit), as long as the spell is cast within 1 day per caster level.

So, if you were to make a scroll of wish, it would normally take 29 days. With the Exceptional Artisan feat, that would be reduced to 22 days.

If you used Greater Restoration, it would be 1 week per caster level, so considerably more time is possible.


You can still restore level loss after it becomes permanent, if you do it before it becomes permanently permanent... Just read Restoration spells description.

Right, I knew there had to be something obvious I'd skipped over.

[candycorn]

@candycorn
Are you seriously arguing that there is any case where the level is restored without the xp?No, I am seriously arguing that the Level is restored, and the XP is set to match the level.

The XP is not "restored". It is "set".

You are using examples as rules, and I could easily cite a dozen examples that don't follow them. Since examples aren't rules, we fall back on the SRD definition, which is:
[Restoration] restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level.
1 Drained level restored by the spell, not 8500 XP.
The XP is then set, based on the level that was restored. Regardless of current XP, your XP total becomes the minimum required to qualify for the level you had restored.

The XP change is incidental to the spell, not a direct function of it.

For more evidence, the only time "restores" is used is in reference to levels lost from level drain and ability drain. Other things might be "brought up" or "cured" or "dispelled"... But only level loss and ability drain are "Restored".

Since the text you quoted only refers to restoring XP, we're fine. Even if Restoration increases XP, it is not restoring it.

[olentu]

@olentu
It doesn't say it is a way of gaining XP, and in the DMG, gaining XP is pretty clearly defined as rewards for encounters, not as result of casting spells. Why should this spell deviate from the general rule that xp gain is caused by winning encounters without mentioning that?

Restoring XP lost is gaining XP and granting entirely new XP is also gaining XP. Either way it is deviating from the norm of gaining XP only as rewards for encounters.

[Aharon]

It's in the PHB. It's part of the rules text. You can't use the spell without the clarifying sentence.

The SRD is not the fallback point. From Wikipedia:
The System Reference Document, or SRD, is a set of reference role playing game mechanics licensed under the Open Game License by Wizards of the Coast (or WotC) and based upon their Dungeons and Dragons role-playing game. The SRD forms the basis of WotC's various d20 System role-playing games, including the d20 System itself, d20 Modern and d20 Future.

So, the reference point for D&D are the D&D rules books. Not the SRD. While often useful, it also disagrees in parts with the D&D rules, and omits important clarifications.

[candycorn]

Restoring XP lost is gaining XP and granting entirely new XP is also gaining XP. Either way it is deviating from the norm of gaining XP only as rewards for encounters.

Nothing in the spell description for Restoration indicates that XP are "restored". They may be gained, increased, set, brought up to a number, or what have you, but Restoration only "restores" two things. Level Loss, and Ability Drain.


It's in the PHB. It's part of the rules text. You can't use the spell without the clarifying sentence.You can use it without the example.


The SRD is not the fallback point. From Wikipedia:WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A CITABLE SOURCE FOR RAW.

There are over 4 billion people on this planet, and each one of them can edit that entry. It is a starting point for research, not the end of it. Using Wikipedia as a cited source is lazy, and fallible. Since it is a collaborative text not written by WotC, it is as prone to error as CustServe.

The books are primary source, but...
Examples.
Of.
Rules.
Are.
Not.
Rules.

You are using them as if they were. That is a flaw.

If you'd like to show that Restoration restores xp, show me one source that uses "restores" in conjunction with experience points.

I'll show you how it says it restores experience levels, but the spell does not say it restores experience points. Even the PHb says, in the example, that XP is "brought up".

So you want to say that the points can't be restored by Restoration, then show me where the PHb states that Restoration restores xp.

(hint: it doesn't. I checked.)

[Legendairy]

Was my post completely missed? I am actually curious lol

If it is a restoration of lost XP then what happens at the opposite end of the spectrum? You gain enough xp to level or get near the level then it wouldnt Return you to the minimum XP to attain the level you lossed instead it would return you to that PLUS the newly gained XP?

That kind of contradicts what the spell says doesn't it?

[olentu]

Nothing in the spell description for Restoration indicates that XP are "restored". They may be gained, increased, set, brought up to a number, or what have you, but Restoration only "restores" two things. Level Loss, and Ability Drain.

I don't really see the need for you to restate my point to me but sure if you want to.

[Aharon]

Nothing in the spell description for Restoration indicates that XP are "restored". They may be gained, increased, set, brought up to a number, or what have you, but Restoration only "restores" two things. Level Loss, and Ability Drain.
To be as nitpicky as you were: it doesn't restore level loss. Please post more clearly.
I guess you meant it restores a level. This isn't possible without the restoration of XP.


WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A CITABLE SOURCE FOR RAW.

There are over 4 billion people on this planet, and each one of them can edit that entry. It is a starting point for research, not the end of it. Using Wikipedia as a cited source is lazy, and fallible. Since it is a collaborative text not written by WotC, it is as prone to error as CustServe.

Are you kidding me? I'm not writing a diploma thesis, I'm discussing a game. But since you insist, a sentence from the OGL itself that basically says the same thing:



The text of the Open Gaming License itself is not Open Game Content. Instructions on using the License are provided within the License itself.

The following items are designated Product Identity, as defined in Section 1(e) of the Open Game License Version 1.0a, and are subject to the conditions set forth in Section 7 of the OGL, and are not Open Content: Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master, Monster Manual, d20 System, Wizards of the Coast, d20 (when used as a trademark), Forgotten Realms, Faerûn, proper names (including those used in the names of spells or items), places, Red Wizard of Thay, the City of Union, Heroic Domains of Ysgard, Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo, Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, Infinite Layers of the Abyss, Tarterian Depths of Carceri, Gray Waste of Hades, Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, Nine Hells of Baator, Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus, Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Twin Paradises of Bytopia, Blessed Fields of Elysium, Wilderness of the Beastlands, Olympian Glades of Arborea, Concordant Domain of the Outlands, Sigil, Lady of Pain, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar’ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.


Do you agree that we are talking about the product D&D and its rules, as opposed to only about the Open Content? Or will you even deny that?


The books are primary source, but...
Examples.
Of.
Rules.
Are.
Not.
Rules.

It is part of the rules text. Only within the wight example does it say to which point your XP are brought. Without this information, the spell can't be applied. Do you understand that?


If you'd like to show that Restoration restores xp, show me one source that uses "restores" in conjunction with experience points.

Thought Bottle.


(hint: it doesn't. I checked.)

Thank you for the helpful hint. Bringing up to a point you previously reached is for all intents and purposes identical to restoring.

[candycorn]

To be as nitpicky as you were: it doesn't restore level loss. Please post more clearly.
I guess you meant it restores a level. This isn't possible without the restoration of XP.Cite source showing that the Restoration spell "restores" xp. It must be that exact word, because "restores" is not the same as "gains" or "is brought up to".


Do you agree that we are talking about the product D&D and its rules? Or will you even deny that?Sarcasm gets you nowhere. That said, the text you cited does not show that the SRD has no rules merit.


It is part of the rules text.So are the guidelines for custom magic items. Just because something is part of the rules text, does not mean it is rules.

Only within the wight example does it say to which point your XP are brought. Without this information, the spell can't be applied. Do you understand that?I understand that examples don't set rules. At best, they assist in explaining rules that already exist. That means that they cannot be used in justifying rules, as they do not set them.


Thought Bottle.Which has no relevance to the function of the RESTORATION SPELL. Congratulations, you've shown that something that isn't a spell restores XP, and something that is a spell doesn't. This shows that each can recover from spellcasting in this manner, as one isn't a spell (the text only states that spells cannot) and the other doesn't restore (because Restoration doesn't say that it restores XP).


Thank you for the helpful hint. Bringing up to a point you previously reached is for all intents and purposes identical to restoring.
Incorrect. The level can be restored to the highest point you reached, because the level is restored. The experience cannot.

If I have 23,000 XP, and lose a level, I go to 18,000 xp (midway between levels). I cast restoration, which restores the lost level, bringing me up to 21,000 experience (using the exact terms for each laid out in the PHb). Further castings will not increase my experience any more, because restoration does not restore experience. Only levels. If the experience was not sufficient to equal a level, it's like it never existed.

The exact terms that are used disagree with you, Aharon.

Thought Bottle shows that Experience can be restored, and is called out explicitly as doing so.
Restoration shows that Levels can be restored, and is called out explicitly as doing so.
Restoration does not explicitly call out that it restores experience points. You are assuming that.

And that third part, where you say it is impossible, without citing a source to support that, is where you're wrong.

Ability scores can be increased without a bonus being applied.
Experience can be increased without being restored.

Why? Because we don't have any rules text establishing that it is impossible to restore one without restoring the other, and rules text references restoring one without referencing restoring the other.

Since this is the case, you're wrong.

However, since you're reading the PHb when it suits you, but filling in blanks with non-rule opinion on the possibility of certain things, I have nothing further to say to you until you show a RAW explanation of precisely why one can be "restored" without the other.

Restoring is returning something to its former condition. You are doing that with a level. You are not doing that with experience, since it doesn't return you to the exact experience total you were at before the level drain. That is what restoring is. Thought Bottle does that with Experience points. Restoration does not.

Thought Bottle is experience point restoration. Restoration is not.

[olentu]

To be as nitpicky as you were: it doesn't restore level loss. Please post more clearly.
I guess you meant it restores a level. This isn't possible without the restoration of XP.


Are you kidding me? I'm not writing a diploma thesis, I'm discussing a game. But since you insist, a sentence from the OGL itself that basically says the same thing:



The text of the Open Gaming License itself is not Open Game Content. Instructions on using the License are provided within the License itself.

The following items are designated Product Identity, as defined in Section 1(e) of the Open Game License Version 1.0a, and are subject to the conditions set forth in Section 7 of the OGL, and are not Open Content: Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master, Monster Manual, d20 System, Wizards of the Coast, d20 (when used as a trademark), Forgotten Realms, Faerûn, proper names (including those used in the names of spells or items), places, Red Wizard of Thay, the City of Union, Heroic Domains of Ysgard, Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo, Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, Infinite Layers of the Abyss, Tarterian Depths of Carceri, Gray Waste of Hades, Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, Nine Hells of Baator, Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus, Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Twin Paradises of Bytopia, Blessed Fields of Elysium, Wilderness of the Beastlands, Olympian Glades of Arborea, Concordant Domain of the Outlands, Sigil, Lady of Pain, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar’ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.


Do you agree that we are talking about the product D&D and its rules, as opposed to only about the Open Content? Or will you even deny that?


It is part of the rules text. Only within the wight example does it say to which point your XP are brought. Without this information, the spell can't be applied. Do you understand that?


Thought Bottle.



Thank you for the helpful hint. Bringing up to a point you previously reached is for all intents and purposes identical to restoring.

In fact the example of the thought bottle reinforces the position that restoration does not restore XP assuming that the thought bottle says that it does. The differentiation between the two where in the case of the thought bottle it was necessary to explicitly state that the XP was restored would mean that where it is not explicitly stated it is not restored or else they would not have needed to say it for the thought bottle.

[Aharon]

Last argument for now:
read the description of thought bottle. It says it functions as the spell, except being more powerful, and then talking about the situations in which it can restore XP, where the spell can't. This implies Restoration also restores XP, but not in all situations where a thought bottle can.

As to our discussion:
Gentlemen, I think we have reached a point where it becomes clear that we won't reach an agreement in the immediate future. I will withdraw from the discussion, because the tone of our conversation, also in part due to my own irritation by your position and the vehemence with which you defend it, has reached a point where a civil outcome won't be reached.

Therefore, I withdraw from this discussion for now. That doesn't mean in any way, shape or form that I agree or conceed, I just feel it's not a good use of my time to continue this discussion right now. I might return at a later point.

[olentu]

Last argument for now:
read the description of thought bottle. It says it functions as the spell, except being more powerful, and then talking about the situations in which it can restore XP, where the spell can't. This implies Restoration also restores XP, but not in all situations where a thought bottle can.

As to our discussion:
Gentlemen, I think we have reached a point where it becomes clear that we won't reach an agreement in the immediate future. I will withdraw from the discussion, because the tone of our conversation, also in part due to my own irritation by your position and the vehemence with which you defend it, has reached a point where a civil outcome won't be reached.

Therefore, I withdraw from this discussion for now. That doesn't mean in any way, shape or form that I agree or conceed, I just feel it's not a good use of my time to continue this discussion right now. I might return at a later point.

Well it says it "can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even restoration can’t undo" so at most it functions like restoration only with regards to being able to undo level loss.

[gkathellar]

Returning to the thread's original topic, here's the build I promised said I didn't promise while actually promising in my head. It's not fully statted up, mostly because I hate Mythweavers sheets, but all the relevant details are included.

Taste the Rainbow
Requires Taint rules and flaws as written. Playable 1-20, although the first 2 levels are going to be rough due to a really low Constitution.
True neutral Hellbred (Soul) —> at level 3, become Necropolitan
Dread Necromancer 1/Wizard 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Contemplative 1

Ability Scores: 28 point-buy
Str 10, Dex 12, Con 4 -> —, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 20 -> 25 (once Necropolitan: Taint = Charisma/2+1)

Necropolitan Ritual Costs: 3,000 gold pieces, 2,000+ experience if performed between levels 3-4.

Levelling
Level 1: DN 1
Level 2: Wizard 1
Level 3a: DN 2
— Perform Necropolitan ritual ASAP, losing level 3, gaining the undead Type and moderate taint —
Level 3b: Rainbow Servant 1
Level 4: Rainbow Servant 2
Level 5: Rainbow Servant 3
Level 6: Rainbow Servant 4
Level 7: Rainbow Servant 5
Level 8: Rainbow Servant 6 — Charisma hits 22, and you gain severe taint.
Level 9: Rainbow Servant 7
Level 10: Rainbow Servant 8
Level 11: Rainbow Servant 9
Level 12: Rainbow Servant 10
Level 13: IotSV 1
Level 14: IotSV 2
Level 15: IotSV 3
Level 16: IotSV 4
Level 17: IotSV 5
Level 18: IotSV 6
Level 19: IotSV 7
Level 20: Contemplative 1

Flaws
Pathetic: Constitution
Noncombatant

Feats
1 (Hellbred): Devil's Favor — Dark Chaos Shuffled at level 15 for Alternative Spell Source
1: Versatile Spellcaster
1 (Flaw): Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
1 (Flaw): Extend Spell
2 (Moderate Taint): Eldritch Corruption
2 (Wizard): Improved Initiative — Dark Chaos Shuffled at level 19 for Practiced Spellcaster.
3: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
6: Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
8 (Severe Taint): Persistent Spell
9: Invisible Spell
12: DMM-Persist
15: Craft Contingent Spell
18: Mindsight
20 (Time Domain): Improved Initiative

So, what has he got?
— Spontaneous casting with: all dread necromancer spells, all cleric spells (including evil spells even if we move up to a good alignment), and any wizard spells we can acquire (though only through Versatile Spellcaster in this last case).
— Air, Good, Law and Time Domain spells, easing some of the burden of Versatile Spellcaster.
— DMM: Persist + Alternative Spell Source = nearly limitless 24-hour buffs.
— Persistent Arcane Spellsurge + Invisible Spell = Permanent, no-cost Quicken Spell.
— 100-foot Telepathy w/Mindsight, 120-foot magic-proof darkvision.
— A pure IotSV's flawless defense, including immunity to Antimagic Field.
— Craft Contingent Spell.
— Undead immunities (and weaknesses).
— Detect Thoughts at will.
— Charnel Touch + Undead for free healing.
— Reasonably good social skills.
— High Charisma reduces nightstick dependence.

What can he do?

A lot of stuff. Anything a DMM-Persist Cleric can do, he can do better — and anything a DMM-Quicken cleric can do, he can do much better. Anything a baseline wizard can do, he can do quickened, without preparation and with DMM-Persist. He has an IotSV's standard level of total invulnerability, and their standard utility at dispelling. He has Mindsight out to 100 feet. He's undead, which gives him a lot of immunities and a small set of weaknesses. He has Craft Contingent Spell, which means no one will ever get the jump on him. A minor point, but he can heal himself slowly but infinitely. And he does all of this with a CL of 20 and spell levels coming in at the same pace as a wizard throughout his development.

What can't he do?

He's not a mailman, or a Cindy build: he's the epitomized Batman wizard, but he lacks the specialized power of a specialized build. He also can't keep going all day: Versatile Spellcaster can eat through spell slots fairly quickly, so he has to be economical about his use of wizard spells (though he doesn't have to waste any on buffs — Persistent Spell handles that angle). There are also some druid spells he misses out on.

He also doesn't have leadership, so he won't be able to get a Cheater of Mystra cohort. How awful.

How can he be adapted?

His race can be changed, as can his Contemplative level — although they go together, because you'll want to grab Mindbender if you can't get Hellbred telepathy. Illumian is an acceptable choice, and with it you can substitute Eldritch Corruption and Practiced Spellcaster for Naenhoon Word and Heighten Spell (which ultimately doesn't save you any feats, since you lose the ability to DCS Devil's Favor and miss out on the Time Domain).

Alternately, one could switch Contemplative for Sacred Exorcist and Dread Necromancer for Beguiler. This gives you a few more skills, and makes your spellcasting Int-based. Ultimately, you don't get much.

Consecrated Spell might be an okay substitute for Invisible Spell, since the Good domain gives him a +1 to CL on all Good spells, but it costs your overall.

You can drop Time for another domain of your choice (Transformation is a good one) to ease your spell burden in other ways. This costs you Improved Initiative, but w/ever.

Finally, if you have a cleric in your party willing to cast Desecrate on an evil altar, and you become a Necropolitan right next to it, you'll get +2 hp per level. I know, totally game-breaking. Woo.

Required Items
— A bunch of Nightsticks.
— Charisma boosters.
— Spells and spellbooks.
— Things that increase spell/day.

[candycorn]

Last argument for now:
read the description of thought bottle. It says it functions as the spell, except being more powerful, and then talking about the situations in which it can restore XP, where the spell can't. This implies Restoration also restores XP, but not in all situations where a thought bottle can.Actually, thought bottle says it can be used to offset level loss. It goes on to say that it can restore level loss, even when Restoration cannot. It then states that the user stores his XP total within it, and can restore his experience point total to exactly what it was. This text is not used in Restoration. Restoration restores the level that was lost, not the experience point total.

In other words, every reference to Restoration refers to restoring or offsetting level loss. It then outlines its function, which is, precisely, to store an XP total, then restore that total when needed. Note, it makes sure to state that it stores the XP, and restores the XP.

Restoration doesn't. This reinforces our view, not yours.


As to our discussion:
Gentlemen, I think we have reached a point where it becomes clear that we won't reach an agreement in the immediate future. I will withdraw from the discussion, because the tone of our conversation, also in part due to my own irritation by your position and the vehemence with which you defend it, has reached a point where a civil outcome won't be reached.If you would step back from the irritation, and look at it purely objectively, I would hope it would overcome this barrier.

[Enterti]

TL;DR: if you want a RAW near infinite xp for crafting method just get a thought bottle.

Now can we get back to the original topic before the mods close down the thread please?

[Wings of Peace]

Finalizing the benchmark level 20 caster build I proposed a couple pages ago. Will post full stats when I'm not at work.

[candycorn]

TL;DR: if you want a RAW near infinite xp for crafting method just get a thought bottle.

Now can we get back to the original topic before the mods close down the thread please?

Or multiple thought bottles. Or thought bottles + level draining, for maximum benefit.

[kulosle]

So here's a question, how good are you at dodging books? Because I would have plenty to throw at a player that tried to do this. Thought Bottle on the other hand is wouldn't mind because that is what it's meant for and it cost xp to use.

One of the things mage slayers should assume is that all the wizards have a level dip into Mind Bender in order to pick up mind sight.

[dextercorvia]

I'm trying to come up with a mid-op Wizard20, but I keep wanting to slip in some kind of shenanigans.

[gkathellar]

I'm trying to come up with a mid-op Wizard20, but I keep wanting to slip in some kind of shenanigans.

So do it. The OP asked for mid-to-high optimization and then gave the okay to a Rainbow Servant/IotSV build, and Wings of Peace has already got the baseline mid-op wizard covered.

Give us an Incantatrix or a Killer Gnome. It is your destiny. You know this to be true.

[dextercorvia]

So do it. The OP asked for mid-to-high optimization and then gave the okay to a Rainbow Servant/IotSV build, and Wings of Peace has already got the baseline mid-op wizard covered.

Give us an Incantatrix or a Killer Gnome. It is your destiny. You know this to be true.

Alright, I'll work on a Dweomerkeeper that Readily Obviates Necrotic Assaults.

You may call her Dr. Ona

[Hirax]

I sketched this out between football games today. I tried to keep it low op (and some of the choices are even pretty damn bad, such as all the "sudden" feats), but uncanny forethought managed to creep in on me. It isn't strictly necessary, though.

Jack Frost, the Collector

8/14/14/18/10/10 after 32 point buy, dump charisma and wisdom for 28 point buy
3/13/9/22/12/12 old grey elf
8/24/14/38/12/12 inherent bonuses, enhancement bonuses, leveling bonuses.

Wizard20
Scribe scroll
1: Sudden extend
3: Improved initiative
W5: Sudden maximize
6: Sudden still
9: Sudden silent
W10: Quicken spell
12: Sudden quicken
15: Arcane disciple: winter
W15: planar touchstone (Extend spell)
18: Spell mastery
W20: Uncanny forethought

Jack has 3 distinct 8 hour shifts each day. The first is going out hunting for trophies, the second is installing new trophies and doing research, and the third is a calm 8 hours spent writing trashy romance novels, to recover spells and publish for profit.

Before the start of the first shift Jack casts a sudden extended foresight (8 hour duration), preventing him from being taken by surprise while he's out and about. Nerveskitter (5), moment of prescience (25), unicorn heart (4), a dex mod of 7, and improved initiative (4) make not acting first very improbable (+45 initiative bonus). Typically Jack will be out hunting (not via astral projection, just for fun) for trophies that he spent the previous day researching through divination and knowledge scoured from the Catalogues of Enlightenment, Sigil, and other appropriate locations. Perhaps even contracting seers in more difficult cases; seers have divinations that are unbeatable pre-epic (hypercognition and metafaculty).

Research in the Catalogues, contracting seers, and other such things is done by a ice assassin named John, that communicates with Jack via interplanar telepathic bond. The ice assassin is of Jack, but instead having an uncontrollable desire to kill him, it's been mindraped to be his best buddy. A simulacrum also works if that's too farfetched for you. Either way, Jack keeps busy in his lab (in a Mage's Mansion on a genesis plane) while John is out in the field. I can imagine a lot of people are going to see ice assassin and genesis being mentioned and immediately thumb their nose, but they're not important to the build in an arena setting, they're there to attempt to complete this as a character concept.

Sneaky characters are easily located with greater arcane sight, unless they've cast magic aura on all their gear and have no buffs active, in which case vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vision.htm) might be necessary to locate the prey. I'd argue that vision gets around mind blank just the same as foresight and true strike, because you're not targeting the victim with anything. If you're in the same place as the victim, then it should yield enough information to glitterdust them. Multiple castings of vision can be used for additional information if necessary. If searching is necessary, it's done while shapechanged into a chronotyryn and incorporeal, so that you can use 1 move action to come out of the ground to cast 2 spells, then a second move action to go back into the ground for safety.

Once the quarry is located, depending on who it is, different methods will be employed. Flesh to ice is sufficient to take down some targets, though in extreme cases the following is effective against most, if not all, non-spellcasters (whether it's the quarry, a random encounter, or an type arena setting in threads such as this):

Round 1: Cast dimensional lock, then sudden quickened sudden maximized time stop.
Time stop 1: Shapechange into chronotyryn for double actions each turn.
Time stop 2: Cast forcecage (walled version), cast snowsight.
Time stop 3: Cast anything that gives cold resistance, cast blizzard.
Time stop 4: Cast undermaster, then cast move earth, which now has a standard action casting time no matter how much earth you move. So you can dump up to 750 cubic feet of earth onto the forcecage each turn. Arguably you don't need the forcecage, but it's there for the people that think using move earth to dump earth onto someone violates time stop's rules.
Time stop 5: Add more dirt, just for good measure. You're going to want want the quarry to be buried in about 8' of earth in all directions once you dismiss the forcecage.

The quarry now has no way to escape, and all spot and listen checks fail (blizzard), probably preventing the allies from participating, due to snowsight only being available to druids and anyone with the winter domain. Simply dismiss the forcecage, causing the quarry to be buried in a cave-in, then cast frostfell, turning all the earth to everfrost (plus causing everyone there to make a save or be turned to ice). Move earth is used to extract the quarry in a 15' cube of everfrost. You and your trophy will be gone by the time allies have figured out a way to deal with the blizzard. Though for the purposes of this thread, I feel that team mates (simulacrums, ice assassins, cohorts, etc.) shouldn't be participating in combat, an arena type setting seems most appropriate.

The strength check to break through 5' of natural ice is 60 (Frostburn, page 28), and that number is provided with the assumption that you're not trapped in it (IE, you're able to move around, get leverage, momentum, etc.), so there is no reasonable way the quarry is going to be able to break out. Whether the quarry can survive in the cube is irrelevant, because it's going to be shipped off to a genesis plane to be kept in cold storage, forever. Invisibility with permanency is cast on the cube to provide a clear view of the imprisoned subject.

Note that if the quarry was difficult enough to require that much exertion, the hunting phase of the day will be cut short, though a couple pearls of power would allow it to be done twice, if it's within budget. Regardless, once hunting for the day is done, Jack simply opens up a Mage's Mansion, disgorges his hoard gullet (Dragon Magic spell), and has his unseen servants (which the mansion provides for free) set up his lab. The next 16 hours are a combination of research and relaxation.

As for spells known? Well, I made an Excel sheet, and for a domain wizard, it would cost a little above 100k to buy 2 blessed books and know this many spells of each level: 50/50/50/50/50/40/40/30/30. Uncanny forethought gives good access to any of those spells throughout the day. Still plenty of WBL left, I believe, but I'll save improvements for another day. A third eye clarity to daze negation is the only other magic item that would add much here, I think.

[Fyermind]

Toying around with the idea of an exalted caster I ended up with this. Certainly far from perfect, but as 6th level casters go, AC 32, invisibility, flight, and DC 25 will just to be mean, seem pretty debilitating.

This build sucks against things immune to mind effecting stuff. It isn't that great when foes have high will saves. And has the wind taken out of it's wings by archers with the ability to see invisible foes.

That said, here goes

Sorcerer 6
Loredrake venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold
Point buy 28
4 str
10 dex
16 con
11 int
9 wis
22 Cha

HP: 31 HP (-4 from draconic rights)
AC: 32 (10 base +7 exalted +2 deflection +7 natural +2 size +4 shield)
Touch AC: 16
Flat footed AC: 32
Saves:
Fort 5 = 3 con +2 base
Ref 2 = 2 base
Will 4 = 5 base -1 wis
Speed: 80', 150' fly (due to altered form)

Skills: Diplomacy +15, Hide +12, Knowledge religion +1, knowledge arcana +1, spellcraft +1

Flaws: shaky, Noncombatant
Level 1 feats:
Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Dragonwrought Kobold, Vow of nonviolence
Level 2
Vow of Peace
Level 3
Draconic resivoir
Level 4
Vow of Purity
Level 6
Vow of Abstinance
Versatile Spellcaster

+7 exalted AC, +2 deflection, +3 natural, +1 size, Endure elements, Sustenance, +4 to save DCs, 20' calming aura will DC(25), weapons break Fort DC(20)

Casts as sorcerer 9
0 - 6 (8) blah blah blah
1 - 6+2 (5) shield, find something cute, put it here, preferably nonlethal damage, or anti-grapple
2 - 6+2 (4) invisibility, alter self, Eagle's Splendor, spectral hand
3 - 6+1 (3) Deep slumber (DC 25), Inevitable Defeat (DC 25), Unluck (DC 25)
4 - 4+1 (2) bestow curse (DC 26), lesser geas (DC 26)

Assumed Prep:
Altered to Wyrmling Shadow Dragon
Cha boosted with Eagle's Splendor
Invisibility
Shield

Playstyle Notes:
Disable with Lesser Geas/Deep slumber.
Eliminate actions and saves with bestow curse
Unluck => Inevitable defeat + Inevitable defeat + Inevitable defeat + .... + Inevitable deafeat

With a 50% miss chance from invisibility, an AC of 32, a DC 25 will just to attack, and a DC 20 fort to damage, oh and FLYING, damage should be a rare occurrence. If it happens well he has just over 30 points to lose.

If the assumed prep bothers you because of low durations priority goes
Prep 1: Alter self and start flying up and away
Prep 2: Invisibility
Prep 3: shield
Prep 4: Eagle Splendor

Content from: Dracanomicon, Dragons of Eberron, Player's Handbook II, Player's Handbook, Spell Compendium, Web Enhancement for Races of the Dragon, Races of the Dragon, Book of Exalted Deeds

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1st level wizard with Precocious apprentice, Fell Drain, Arcane Thesis, and another metamagic reducer of choice. Requires a couple of Flaws to pull off.

Hail of Stones + Fell Drain. You die. No save. Have a nice day.

Actually, you could probably get away with magic missile + fell drain, but just in case someone tries to say that 'first level' can mean a first class level on some monster with insane SR, I'm eliminating the problem.

[Killer Angel]

Haha... What was it... he won't post it unless he has a reliable way to defeat the build?


Your lack of faith is disturbing.

[candycorn]

1st level wizard with Precocious apprentice, Fell Drain, Arcane Thesis, and another metamagic reducer of choice. Requires a couple of Flaws to pull off.

Hail of Stones + Fell Drain. You die. No save. Have a nice day.

Actually, you could probably get away with magic missile + fell drain, but just in case someone tries to say that 'first level' can mean a first class level on some monster with insane SR, I'm eliminating the problem.

Yeah, I posted the sonic snap/fell drain already, using no flaws.

Also posted the Maximized CL 5 Kelgores Fire Bolt at level 1, using 1 flaw. With 2 flaws, it could be empowered also, for an average damage of 38.75 on a failed reflex, and 19.375 on a passed save, ignoring 10 points of fire resist.

I can't think of much non-caster level 1 builds that would survive with a failed save (Dragonborn mongrelfolk barbarian, raging, can have a Con of 28, for 21 HP. Add on Shape meld: rageclaws, and that's 31 effective HP... Wild talent for vigor would get to 36... still almost 3HP shy of the average damage done.), and most builds would be out on a passed save (without diehard or similar, a 20 con warblade has 17hp).

[Gwendol]

What do you playgrounders think? Want to make some mages?

Mages? Just make a bard.

At low levels he may be killable, providing the warrior gets to go first, but beyond that the warrior is toast.

[kulosle]

Will someone do me the favor and post a incredibly paranoid wizard? One that's mainly focused on defense and first reaction is never to attack but trap. I haven't played around with the defense buffs of a wizard in a long time, plus playing a paranoid wizard isn't too much fun. This wizard would be helpful in two ways.

1)people, mainly me, can re familiarize themselves with it playstyle

2)this is the benchmark the ideal mage slayer is trying to overcome

[candycorn]

Some aspects of said wizard:

Lives in a private demiplane of his own creation.
Further, lives in a MMM inside that demiplane.
Further, has constant mindblank, dimension lock up within that.
If he needs to leave, he does so via simulacrum or astral projection.

This is extremely paranoid, and it doesn't require a build. There's virtually no way for a non-caster to even reach the wizard, much less fight him.

[Hirax]

Ice assassins work better than simulacrums, they're basically a full strength clone of you. Mindrape them into being your best buddy, and use interplanar telepathic bond to keep tabs on them when you send them out into the world.

Here's an evolution of what I started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12394914&postcount=7).

Belcher

Wizard5/incantatrix10/mindbender1/loremaster3 (meh) /olin gisir1

8/14/14/18/10/10 after 32 point buy, dump charisma and wisdom for 28 point buy
3/13/9/22/12/12 old grey elf
8/24/14/38/12/12 inherent bonuses, enhancement bonuses, leveling bonuses.

Frog God's Fane: Skill focus
Otyugh hole: Iron will
Flaw: Energy sub: cold
Flaw: Energy sub: fire
1: Snowcasting
3: Frozen magic
6: Cold spell Specialization
9: Arcane thesis: dragon breath
12: Searing spell
15: Piercing cold
18: Mindsight
Inc1: Extend spell
Inc4: Persist spell
Inc7: Widen spell
Inc10: Empower spell
Loremaster1: Energy admix: fire
Olin1: Energy admix: cold
Metamagic storm: Transdimensional spell

Dragon breath is cast with snowcasting and energy admix: fire, giving the spell the fire and cold descriptors. A fire breath weapon is chosen, a maximize rod is used, and instant metamagic is used to add energy admix: cold. Also applied are transdimensional, empower, searing, and piercing, because arcane thesis makes them free. Metamagic effect is used to retroactively add persist, extend, widen. Technically that's an illegal use of widen, but monks are also technically not proficient with unarmed strikes. We'll let it slide because it's strange.

Step by step, let's go through the damage.
10d8 searing fire (base)
20d8 searing fire (admix1)
20d8 searing fire, 10d8 piercing cold (admix2)
160 searing fire, 80 piercing cold (maximize)
160+10d8 searing fire, 80+5d8 piercing cold (empower)
220+10d8 searing fire, 110+5d8 piercing cold (cold spell specialization, due to extended control temperature)

For the purposes of metamagic effect DCs, that's only a level 15 spell, so adding all that is no problem.

Next, cast and persist+extend breath weapon admixture twice, with the acid and electricity descriptors, then use metamagic effect to change them to cold and fire spells (by adding both your energy sub feats to them). Depending on your reading of breath weapon admixture, this will do different things. Regardless, it will do a lot of damage, and everyone will run out of rerolls and get natural 1s eventually. Oh, and that share spells thingy your familiar gets? It means you get to double your breath weapon fun. :smallbiggrin: Note that it can also hit ethereal creatures, things in rope tricks, mage's mansion, etc. due to transdimensional spell.

Because Belcher can use his breath weapon all day, he's free to use most of his other spell slots for buffs, using metamagic effect and extend rods to persist+extend alternating sets of 48 hour buffs. This means all day foresight and shapechange, among other things. I fought the urge to add ocular spell, stacking extend and persist and using widen on dragon breath felt like enough rule bending for high op.

If you want to be ludicrous, there's no restriction on having a second breath weapon, or even a third or more, so long as you pick ones with different effects. They work together just like multiple castings of energy immunity when you pick different elements. You could cast dragon breath again, choosing a cone of cold instead, and do everything over, granting yourself a second breath weapon of ultimate destructive power. The nice thing about choosing a cone of cold for the second one would be that it would even out the damage total, because your first breath weapon is lopsided in favor of fire damage (intentionally, due to searing spell being slightly better), and you second would be equally lopsided to cold.

[dextercorvia]

1st level wizard with Precocious apprentice, Fell Drain, Arcane Thesis, and another metamagic reducer of choice. Requires a couple of Flaws to pull off.

Hail of Stones + Fell Drain. You die. No save. Have a nice day.

Actually, you could probably get away with magic missile + fell drain, but just in case someone tries to say that 'first level' can mean a first class level on some monster with insane SR, I'm eliminating the problem.

Requires high levels of cheese to get 9 ranks at first level.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, if we're putting together optimized builds to challenge, here's my submission for level 10.

This is a tough build but isn't super high optimization - it doesn't even come close to taint, or Consumptive Field, or anything like that. This assumes no flaws, no nightstick stacking, etc. The closest thing to a custom item is a masterwork tool for Autohypnosis, but even that can be dropped.

For a really optimized DMM Cleric, I'd probably drop Master of Shrouds completely and do something with Death Delver and Destroy Undead for three valid turning pools to fuel DMM, and persist every spell under the sun.

But optimized or no, this IS something that I would actually play, assuming it was a group with other Tier 1s. It's got a lot of utility, some varied forms of offense, and is incredibly hard to kill or contain.


Human, Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Master of Shrouds 6

DOMAINS: Knowledge, Inquisition, Rune, Undeath

FEATS:
1- Scribe Scroll (domain), Extra Turning (domain), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning
3- Extend Spell
6- Persistent Spell
9- DMM (Persistent Spell)

STATS: Doesn't much matter. Wisdom should be boosted as high as possible. Charisma needs to be at least 18, after items. Keep Con high, of course, and don't completely trash Dex.

TURN ATTEMPTS: 17+Cha (includes one nightstick and one reliquary holy symbol - if nightstick stacking or flaws are allowed, this goes up even further)

6 persisted spells (3 per day, using Extend Spell on them to last 48 hours)

Typical spells prepared (will change if, using divination effects, he expects to face different enemies - this is just a general list):

1- Entropic Shield, Sanctuary, Omen of Peril, Omen of Peril, Ebon Eyes, Detect Chaos
2- Cloud of Knives (persisted), Vile Darkbolt, Vile Darkbolt, Divine Insight, Close Wounds, Detect Thoughts
3- Ring of Blades (persisted), Divine Retaliation (persisted), Magic Vestment, Dispel Magic, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
4- Extended Magic Circle v Chaos, Mystic Aegis, Delay Death, Death Ward
5- Extended Freedom of Movement, Plane Shift, True Seeing

Extended/Persisted today: Cloud of Knives, Ring of Blades, Divine Retaliation
Extended/Persisted from the day before: Lesser Holy Transformation, Recitation, Mass Lesser Vigor

BUILD NOTES:

Can summon one spectre, two wraiths, or four shadows, 3+Cha times per day. Summoned creatures get a +2 enhancement bonus to attack/damage, plus luck bonuses from Recitation and fast healing from Mass Lesser Vigor.

Spends the day as a Protectar (Miniature's Handbook), with darkvision and a perfect 60' fly speed. Extended Magic Circle and Freedom of Movement last four hours and twenty minutes. Constantly surrounded by a ring of magical blades and deals damage to adjacent creatures and a floating longsword that attacks back for every single attack made against him. Can throw a knife every round as a free action. Cross-classes Autohypnosis as a skill, and when faced with overwhelming damage, uses Delay Death to stay alive, then makes an Autohypnosis check to stay awake (activating Divine Insight's bonus to make sure he hits the check). Has a number of ways to avoid damage, predict what is coming, etc. Several Save-or-Suck/Dies, including Vile Darkbolt (stuns) and Plane Shift (utility/SoD). Will surround an enemy with four shadows, then use Dispel Magic (with a bonus to the check thanks to the Inquisition domain) to dispel their weapon so that they cannot fight back.

Has used Lesser Planar Binding (Rune domain) to bind a Nightmare, and used the Astral Projection trick to make several nested doubles, so that if something DOES go wrong, instead of dying, he reverts to his previous duplicate. Having etherealness at will is pretty cool, too. If necessary, he will go ethereal, drop to somewhere unable to be attacked, and use Clairvoyance to direct his shadows on an assault.

Carries scrolls of utility spells, healing spells and Animate Dead, and tries to remain surrounded by undead guardians. If we want to get cheesy, can make duplicates of these consumables via Astral Projection.

ITEMS OF NOTE: The usual. Nightstick, Reliquary Holy Symbol, Rod of Extend, Bead of Karma, masterwork tool of Autohypnosis, and Wisdom/Charisma boosters. Everything else is gravy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's also the Dread Necro/Tainted Sorcerer with Arcane Devotion (Evil) and the ability to spam Blasphemy with an effective CL of NI.

[JaronK]

Not sure I want to go through all the work to make the build, but a Gnome Illusionist 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is a solid level 10, and throwing in Mindbender 1/Earth Dreamer 4 is an easy continuation of the point (assuming you're not trying to go for even more extreme stuff). Finish out with Earth Dreamer +1 and four levels of whatever you like. Make sure to take the useful Gnome Illusionist variant and maybe the UA variants.

Two flaws, Spell Focus Illusion, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Shape Spell, Arcane Thesis (Silent Image), and Easy Metamagic: Heighten Spell are obvious feats to start with. For the level 15 version, add in Mindsight and Residual Metamagic. Note that Earth Spell allows for easy early entry into Shadowcraft Mage.

As a basic defense, build a small tower that's 3' diameter and 3' tall, made of any material you prefer. Give it four legs and a bunch of shuttered windows around it, then animate it via Haunt Shift controlled by an Animate Dread Warrior minion. Most of the time it can fly by sitting on a Greater Floating Disk, but the legs provide backup mobility... and it can close the shutters to stop line of effect whenever you need. Boost the hardness with a Harden spell, and don't forget to Fabricate it with Dwarvencraft Quality. It should be almost impossible to damage and provide a nice basic defense.

JaronK

[Piggy Knowles]

As a basic defense, build a small tower that's 3' diameter and 3' tall, made of any material you prefer some sort of stone, which you can see through thanks to Earth Dreamer.

Minor correction! I always suggest building lots of things out of stone if you're playing an Earth Dreamer. I had a dwarven Wizard/Runesmith/Earth Dreamer statted up for a game that never happened once, that basically did what JaronK is suggesting.

[erikun]

Okay, fine. Let's look at the wizard spell list. Please note that I haven't read through the whole thread, so my apologies if this has already been done.

1st - Protection from X, Grease, Mount, Summon Monster I, True Strike, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge/Reduce Person, Expeditious Retreat

2nd - Protection from Arrows, Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Web, Darkness, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray, Blur, Invisibility, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Blindness/Deafness, Spider Climb

3rd - Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against X, Phantom Steed, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Hold Person, Suggestion, Wind Wall, Displacement, Major Image, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Shrink Item, Slow

4th - Stoneskin, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Summon Monster IV, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Ice, Illusory Wall, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Conjuration, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Polymorph

5th - Break Enchantment, Cloudkill, Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Mind Fog, Wall of Force, Persistent Image, Shadow Evocation, Waves of Fatigue, Baleful Polymorph, Overland Flight


Okay, bored now. Please note that I'm not considering feats, class abilities, prestige classes, or anything of the type. This is just spells. What do we have?


At level 5, our wizard will have Fly and Protection from Arrows, which takes care of just about any offense the warrior can produce. I believe you can have flight at that level with a Carpet of Flying, but that is limited to 40' movement (30' in medium or heavy armor, which most warriors would be in) while the wizard has 60' movement.

This might not be so great a fight for the wizard, as they will likely have some difficulty killing the warrior with a crossbow or running out of spells (without moderate optimization). Luckily, the wizard can simply stock up on Acid and Alchemist's Fire and hit an AC 10 to smash it on whatever square the warrior is standing in for automatic damage. As a plus, this would also damage and destroy the warrior's only mode of flight.

Please note that the "poor fight" for the wizard means them being fully free to leave at any time without killing the warrior, not for a risk of dying.


If level 5 was imbalancing towards the wizard, with a good chance of the warrior surviving, then level 10 just isn't fair. Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Resilient Sphere, walls of everything, shadow illusions, multiple debuffs, flight, full invisibility, a 92% miss chance, summons, polymorph, and a number of other options to allow the wizard to either deal with or completely ignore the warrior. Oh, and Dispel Magic, in case the warrior got their hands on something magical that could potentially even the odds a bit.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Let's not forget Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect.

Even if you go first, I still get an interrupt action before your attack lands. Therefore, I win anyways.

[Anthrowhale]

... a 92% miss chance...

I don't believe this. The Rules Compendium in the Incorporeality section states "If a creature receives miss chances from multiple sources, such as from being incorporeal and having concealment, they don't stack."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't believe this. The Rules Compendium in the Incorporeality section states "If a creature receives miss chances from multiple sources, such as from being incorporeal and having concealment, they don't stack."

Correct. The Wizard will simply have to be satisfied with a 12.5% chance of being hit with Greater Mirror Image.

[Hirax]

They won't stack, but they will work together. You need to succeed against each applicable miss chance separately. So two 50% miss chances (from total concealment and incorporeal, for instance) amount to a 75% miss chance, for instance, but you're really just rolling two different 50%.

[The Glyphstone]

At level 5, our wizard will have Fly and Protection from Arrows, which takes care of just about any offense the warrior can produce. I believe you can have flight at that level with a Carpet of Flying, but that is limited to 40' movement (30' in medium or heavy armor, which most warriors would be in) while the wizard has 60' movement.


Substitute Wind Wall for Protection From Arrows, otherwise you are now vulnerable to anyone with a +1 bow (which a dedicated archer will have by level 5, and a melee-primary warrior could have if he forgoes a stat-boosting item.

[Anthrowhale]

They won't stack, but they will work together. You need to succeed against each applicable miss chance separately. So two 50% miss chances (from total concealment and incorporeal, for instance) amount to a 75% miss chance, for instance, but you're really just rolling two different 50%.

No, the next sentence is "Only the highest miss chance applies."

[candycorn]

No, the next sentence is "Only the highest miss chance applies."

This. Prior to rules compendium, concealment didn't stack with itself, but other miss chances applied normally. However, the Rules Compendium makes it quite clear.

If you have multiple miss chances of any sort, they do not stack. You only apply the single best miss chance.

[Wings of Peace]

I was working on the level 20 example of a mid-op wizard in g-docs then decided that I may as well just post a link to it (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nNV_Sypme91pOEoVCcst1ItGdTXcCudyqNdJj_QK3GU/edit).

Still need to actually scribe down the the stat point allocations and wbl expenditures but the gist of the build is there and will be updated as I find time.

The principles of the build are simple:

A.) The Wizard (Magical Trevor) has given up his familiar for the ability to not require a spellbook. This won't make him stronger against a warrior, it's just a style preference.

B.) Thanks to Spelldancing Trevor can persist any buff he wants regardless of its level. By investing his 1 point of essentia gained from being Azurin into his Strongheart Vest Trevor is able to mitigate the constitution damage he would normally take from Spelldancing so much.

C.) Thanks to Reserves of Strength Trevor's spells have no caster level cap. Because of this certain buffs such as Shapechange are much more potent when cast by Trevor.

D.) Because Trevor is maniacal and clever he always has certain key buffs persisted such as Shapechange (though the build is designed that the player can decide what spells they want to persist).

E.) Trevor will typically wait for an opportunity to debilitate or ensnare his opponents with a well timed spell. If Trevor finds himself lacking the appropriate spell he can use Versatile Spellcaster to spontaneously cast the desired spell.

[Aharon]

@olentu and candycorn
After taking some time to rethink my position, I do agree that purely RAW, you are right because the designers obviously didn't think of this edge case.

However, I would like to ask you wether you agree that it is in this case almost painfully obvious that RAI, restoration should not work that way because of the clause helldog cited. In my opinion, it's about as clear-cut as the fact that a sap isn't supposed to deal 1d63 damage. This is why I argued as vehemently as I did.

[dextercorvia]

@olentu and candycorn
After taking some time to rethink my position, I do agree that purely RAW, you are right because the designers obviously didn't think of this edge case.

However, I would like to ask you wether you agree that it is in this case almost painfully obvious that RAI, restoration should not work that way because of the clause helldog cited. In my opinion, it's about as clear-cut as the fact that a sap isn't supposed to deal 1d63 damage. This is why I argued as vehemently as I did.

Bravo and well said -- normally I'm a strict RAW kind of guy in these discussions -- but I do like a reasonable houserule, or decent justification for a gentlemen's agreement -- and this is one.

[Tyndmyr]

A range of medium to high. Since that's typically what people making warriors to try to beat wizards are hoping to beat. So nothing insanely cheese-ridden, and no Pun-Pun, but a DMM cleric or an Incantatrix or whatever else would be entirely appropriate.

Conjurer 5/Incantatrix 8/Iot7V 7.

ACFs: Abrupt Jaunt

Assume that extend/persist are available and used to full potential. Typical buff list is as follows: "+4 enhancement bonuses to any stat I don't enhance via items, Ironguard, Vigor, Foresight, Mind Blank, Scintillating Scales(if I have NA, which I probably do due to other buffs), Guidance of the Avatar, All Heart of X, Deathward, some form of flight, Prot: Arrows, Prot: Evil, some armor buffs, Superior Invisibility). Probably a lot more as well, but that's all fairly normal stuff.

Typically wield a kusari-gama in one hand, wand socketed with wings of cover. The weapon is not actually important, I just find luckily killing things with melee AoOs amusing.

The above is not a hypothetical build, it's one I've actually played. In addition, I add the following high-op tricks that I don't normally bust out unless we're dialing the power level to 11. They require no build changes.

Arbitrarily large amount of spells memorized.
Dynamic feat shuffling for the purpose of spell memorization via Chaos Shuffle, for any combination of metamagics I might theoretically need.
Automatic knowledge of every single spell that can be written in a spell book via any means.
Arbitrarily large amounts of wealth and magic items.
Polymorphed into a Dire Turtle.

Edit: I suppose I should note that tricks like "arbitrarily large amount of spells" come on line at level 7. This build is pretty much going to crush any fighter at any level beyond the very early ones. And frankly, even there, abrupt jaunt and color spray will ruin any fighter's day who isn't immune to it. If he is...meh, abrupt jaunt and magic missile.

[The Glyphstone]

Infinite spells and infinite wealth fits in what you consider 'medium-high op'?

[erikun]

I don't believe this. The Rules Compendium in the Incorporeality section states "If a creature receives miss chances from multiple sources, such as from being incorporeal and having concealment, they don't stack."
Displacement is a 50% miss chance, while Mirror Image creates five false duplicates. Technically, that is only a 50% miss chance combined with a one-in-six chance of hitting the real caster... but it comes out as an actual 92% miss chance for any attack.

And really, the point is rather moot, since you would have Greater Invisibility by that point: 100% miss chance due to not being in the square the warrior is attacking. I was just pointing out that the wizard has all those options available, and even if they don't want to run around invisible for some reason, there is still a very small chance of being hit with an attack... regardless of how high the warrior's attack bonus is.


Substitute Wind Wall for Protection From Arrows, otherwise you are now vulnerable to anyone with a +1 bow (which a dedicated archer will have by level 5, and a melee-primary warrior could have if he forgoes a stat-boosting item.
Good point, I'd forgotten about that. Wind Wall is stationary though, so our 5th level wizard would need to be a bit more proactive with the Alchemist's Fire against any flying carpets in the area.

[Tyndmyr]

Infinite spells and infinite wealth fits in what you consider 'medium-high op'?

Nah, that's what happens when it's dialed to full high-op. Hence the distinction between the two. The build is decidedly not weak even without that.

That said, you can get a wand of Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer and slam another 150 spell levels into your head for a fairly trivial cost of a few k gold. It's straight core, and accessible to literally any wizard.

Ways to circumvent or extend WBL also exist in core, and require basically nothing in the way of synergy to pull off. I'm certainly not the first or last person to see "wall of iron" and wonder if I could sell iron for gold.

So, even at medium-high levels, the wizard can easily be engaging in these tricks on a lesser basis.

[candycorn]

Also, Wall of Stone can create quite an extensive lair.

[Tyndmyr]

Also, Wall of Stone can create quite an extensive lair.

Oh, I just sort of assume that any wizard with any power of note is going to have an awesome lair limited mainly by his patience and taste.

Wall of Stone, Stone to Flesh, lots of Gentle Repose = Meat Castle.

Probably not the best of ideas...but possible? Absolutely.

[candycorn]

Oh, I just sort of assume that any wizard with any power of note is going to have an awesome lair limited mainly by his patience and taste.

Wall of Stone, Stone to Flesh, lots of Gentle Repose = Meat Castle.

Probably not the best of ideas...but possible? Absolutely.

You could then use Glassstrike, to make a glass castle.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Genesis lets you manipulate the terrain of the new demi-plane you just made. This can lead to an epic-looking abode.

[Infernalbargain]

@olentu and candycorn
After taking some time to rethink my position, I do agree that purely RAW, you are right because the designers obviously didn't think of this edge case.

However, I would like to ask you wether you agree that it is in this case almost painfully obvious that RAI, restoration should not work that way because of the clause helldog cited. In my opinion, it's about as clear-cut as the fact that a sap isn't supposed to deal 1d63 damage. This is why I argued as vehemently as I did.

Let us suppose that this trick does not work. So we'll go step by step, you are level 12. You get level drained down to 11. You craft some stuff. You get a restoration. What level are you? If the trick does not work, you are level 11; at which point restoration didn't restore your level. If you are level 12, the trick works.

[candycorn]

Let us suppose that this trick does not work. So we'll go step by step, you are level 12. You get level drained down to 11. You craft some stuff. You get a restoration. What level are you? If the trick does not work, you are level 11; at which point restoration didn't restore your level. If you are level 12, the trick works.

The only rules for "can't get the XP back" are for XP cost spells. Crafting has no such proviso.

Thus, level drain, then craft, then Restoration works. You would be level 12.

The only dispute was if you'd recover the level from a spell with an XP cost. You'll need a thought bottle for that, if the Restoration trick is not ruled to work with XP cost spells.

Thought bottle would be quite effective, however, for XP-cost spells.

Level drain from 18 to 17. You have 8500xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 8000xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 3000xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 8000xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 7500xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 2500xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 7500xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 7000xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 2000xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 7000xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 7500xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 2500xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 6500xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 6000xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 1000xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 6000xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 5500xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 500xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 5500xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 5000xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 0xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 5000xp extra.

Cast Restoration. At this point, all spell XP has been restored by the thought bottle. All XP lost was from either the level loss, or the cost of storing XP in the thought bottle.

Return to Level 18, having just had up to seven wishes, to gain 175,000 gp worth of crafting materials. This can be used to make items valued at 350,000 gp. It will take 14,000 xp to make items totaling that value, which is just under 2 cycles of Drain level/Craft. Max item cost per cycle is 212,500 gp (which will cost 8500xp to craft, abd will require 106,250 gp worth of materials).

This will take quite some time to craft, so you'll need a very high CL restorer, or you'll need to buy cheaper items. (+5 tome is 137,500gp... even with a 25% off craft time feat, you're looking at needing a 103 CL restoration... Which is possible, but requires its own brand of cheese.)

[olentu]

@olentu and candycorn
After taking some time to rethink my position, I do agree that purely RAW, you are right because the designers obviously didn't think of this edge case.

However, I would like to ask you wether you agree that it is in this case almost painfully obvious that RAI, restoration should not work that way because of the clause helldog cited. In my opinion, it's about as clear-cut as the fact that a sap isn't supposed to deal 1d63 damage. This is why I argued as vehemently as I did.

I generally try not to say what may or may not be designer intent. If I had to choose I would say the interaction was unforeseen but I would probably choose that by default for any interaction.

[Infernalbargain]

The only rules for "can't get the XP back" are for XP cost spells. Crafting has no such proviso.

Thus, level drain, then craft, then Restoration works. You would be level 12.

The only dispute was if you'd recover the level from a spell with an XP cost. You'll need a thought bottle for that, if the Restoration trick is not ruled to work with XP cost spells.

Thought bottle would be quite effective, however, for XP-cost spells.

Level drain from 18 to 17. You have 8500xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 8000xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 3000xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 8000xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 7500xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 2500xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 7500xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 7000xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 2000xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 7000xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 7500xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 2500xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 6500xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 6000xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 1000xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 6000xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 5500xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 500xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 5500xp extra.
Store your XP. You have 5000xp extra.
Cast Wish. You have 0xp extra.
Restore XP from Thought Bottle. You have 5000xp extra.

Cast Restoration. At this point, all spell XP has been restored by the thought bottle. All XP lost was from either the level loss, or the cost of storing XP in the thought bottle.

Return to Level 18, having just had up to seven wishes, to gain 175,000 gp worth of crafting materials. This can be used to make items valued at 350,000 gp. It will take 14,000 xp to make items totaling that value, which is just under 2 cycles of Drain level/Craft. Max item cost per cycle is 212,500 gp (which will cost 8500xp to craft, abd will require 106,250 gp worth of materials).

This will take quite some time to craft, so you'll need a very high CL restorer, or you'll need to buy cheaper items. (+5 tome is 137,500gp... even with a 25% off craft time feat, you're looking at needing a 103 CL restoration... Which is possible, but requires its own brand of cheese.)

If you read carefully, you'd realize that my post is an argument by contradiction for the trick working.

[Doug Lampert]

...This will take quite some time to craft, so you'll need a very high CL restorer, or you'll need to buy cheaper items. (+5 tome is 137,500gp... even with a 25% off craft time feat, you're looking at needing a 103 CL restoration... Which is possible, but requires its own brand of cheese.)

This is wrong. Seriously wrong.
SRD

Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.
...
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.
...
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

Note that the market price is explicitely NOT always the base price, but base price is unambiguously what determines crafting time.

Now let's look at the cost of a tome:

Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.

The base cost of the +5 tome is 12,500 GP. The price of 137,500 GP is that + 5 times the extra 25,000 XP.

It quite clearly takes 13 days to craft a +5 tome.

[Fyermind]

This will take quite some time to craft, so you'll need a very high CL restorer, or you'll need to buy cheaper items. (+5 tome is 137,500gp... even with a 25% off craft time feat, you're looking at needing a 103 CL restoration... Which is possible, but requires its own brand of cheese.)

Death Knell is your friend. As are "cast spell as a spell like ability up to once per round. As are lots and lots of dying rats. Put them out of their misery all at once.

Also wherever Greater Consumptive Field got printed first, I bet it didn't have the caster level increase cap. (WoTC can be so arbitrary about fixing broken abilities)

[Ashiel]

Just thought I'd toss out a 15th level wizard NPC I made using Pathfinder. This wizard was built to demonstrate to a player of mine that wizards are far from underpowered. As a pun, his name is "Knot Opey".

Human Wizard (Conjurer) 15
Init +10, Perception +19
====================
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 10
HP: 136, Init +10, AC 11
Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +15
====================
Scythe +10 (2d4+1/x4)
====================
Spells Prepared (DC 19 + Level)
8th (2+1) - Mind Blank, Persistent Flesh to Stone x2
7th (3+1) - Limited Wish x 1, Project Image x1, Ethereal Jaunt x1, Summon Monster VII
6th (4+1) - Flesh to Stone x2, Disintegrate x1, True Seeing x1, Acid Cloud
5th (6+1) - Telekinesis x3, Hold Monster x2, Wall of Stone x2
4th (6+1) - Black Tentacles x3, Bestow Curse x2, Dimensional Anchor x1, Globe of Invulnerability x1
3rd (6+1) - Gaseous Form x2, Ray of Exhaustion x2, Halt Undead x1, Displacement x1, Stinking Cloud
2nd (6+1) - Mirror Image x2, Glitterdust x2, Blur x1, Hideous Laughter x1, Web x1
1st (7+1) - Grease x6, Shield x1, Mage armor x1
Cantrips - Acid Splash, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic
====================
Feats - Improved Initiative, Spellcasting Prodigy, Scribe Scroll,
Heighten Spell, Persistent Spell, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration),
Toughness, Combat Defense Training, Craft Wondrous Item, Skill Focus (Stealth), Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes
Traits - Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Traits - Heirloom Weapon (Scythe)
====================
Skills - Stealth +25, Spellcraft +27, Knowledge (arcana) +27, Knowledge (religion) +27, Knowledge (local) +27, Linguistics +27, Craft (Alchemy) +27, Perception +19, Bluff +16, Disguise +16, Survival +19
====================
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 28, Wis 18, Cha 12
BAB +7, CMB +8, CMD 29
====================
Equipment - Scroll of Mage Armor, Scroll of Obscuring Mist, Scroll of Expeditious Retreat,
Scroll of Disguise Self, Spellbook, Spell Pouch, Acid Flask (2), Solar Simulacrums (2), 1500 gp diamonds (5),
true seeing ointment (4), Scroll of Ethereal Jaunt (2), Scroll of Project Image (2), Cloak of Displacement, Gloves of Dexterity +1, Amulet of Health +1, Headband of Wisdom +1, Cloak of Resistance +2

Solar CR (Included With Creator)
NG Large outsider (angel, extraplanar, good)
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, detect evil, detect snares and pits, true seeing; Perception +33
Aura protective aura
============================
AC 44, touch 11, flat-footed 42 (+14 armor, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +19 natural, -1 size; +4 deflection vs. evil)
hp 170 (11d10+110); regeneration 15 (evil artifacts, effects, and spells)
Fort +25, Ref +14, Will +23; +4 vs. poison, +4 resistance vs. evil
DR 15/epic and evil; Immune acid, cold, petrification; Resist electricity 10, fire 10; SR 34
============================
Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft. (good); 35 ft., fly 100 ft. (good) in armor
Melee +5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 (3d6+18) or slam +30 (2d8+13)
Ranged +5 composite longbow (+9 Str bonus) +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+14 plus slaying arrow)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
============================
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th)
Constant—detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 21), true seeing
At Will—aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 21), imprisonment (DC 26), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 20), waves of fatigue
3/day—blade barrier (DC 23), earthquake (DC 25), heal, mass charm monster (DC 25), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion
1/day—greater restoration, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 24), wish
============================
Spells Prepared (CL 20th)
9th—etherealness, mass heal, miracle, storm of vengeance (DC 27)
8th—fire storm (DC 26), holy aura (2) (DC 26), mass cure critical wounds (2)
7th—destruction (DC 25), dictum (DC 25), ethereal jaunt, holy word (DC 25), regenerate
6th—banishment (DC 24), heroes' feast, mass cure moderate wounds, undeath to death (DC 24), word of recall
5th—break enchantment, breath of life, dispel evil (DC 23), plane shift (DC 23), righteous might, symbol of sleep (DC 23)
4th—cure critical wounds (3), death ward, dismissal (DC 22), neutralize poison (2) (DC 22)
3rd—cure serious wounds, daylight, invisibility purge, magic circle against evil, prayer, protection from energy, wind wall
2nd—align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, consecrate, cure moderate wounds (2), eagle's splendor
1st—bless, cure light wounds (3), divine favor, entropic shield, shield of faith
0 (at will)—detect magic, purify food and drink, stabilize, virtue
============================
Str 28, Dex 20, Con 30, Int 23, Wis 27, Cha 25
Base Atk +11; CMB +32; CMD 47
============================
Feats Cleave, Deadly Aim, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Toughness
============================
Skills Craft (any one) +31, Diplomacy +32, Fly +32, Knowledge (history) +31, Knowledge (nature) +31, Knowledge (planes) +31, Knowledge (religion) +31, Perception +33, Sense Motive +33, Spellcraft +31, Stealth +21, Survival +31
============================
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
SQ change shape (alter self)
============================
Special Abilities
Spells Solars can cast divine spells as 20th-level clerics. They do not gain access to domains or other cleric abilities.
Slaying Arrow (Su) A solar's bow needs no ammunition, and automatically creates a slaying arrow of the solar's choice when drawn.

Knot Opey has two solars which were created via a simulacrum spell. Everything Knot Opey has is within his NPC Wealth By Level. Even nerfed by Pathfinder, wizards are still amazingly powerful if played correctly.

Knot Opey's strategies are pretty simple. His solars travel around with him invisible, and use their true seeing and other spell-like abilities to support him, and keep him protected. They use all their spells for his adventuring purposes, including commune. In combat they typically remain invisible and just spam Summon Monster VII every round; occasionally dropping Waves of Fatigue. Worse case scenario occurs, and they can each burst a wish spell per day to use something that's needed (also combos well since they can use Wish to mimic limited wish and give a -7 untyped penalty to a target's next saving throw).

He himself typically fight battles with a combination of project image and ethereal jaunt, allowing him to engage his enemies while he's ethereal, while his projected image (who never leaves his LoS), is used as a proxy for all of his spellcasting (literally meaning you can't hurt him barring force effects, nor see him without see invisibility). Against 90% of foes he doesn't have to dirty his hands as his Solars keep dumping a pair of celestial T-Rexes each turn on their foes; but he won't hesitate to drop a black tentacles if something is being a bit too mobile.

Worst case scenario, he typically will use save or dies like flesh to stone or hold monster after hitting his foe with a limited wish to inflict a -7 on their next saving throw, which is usually followed by persistent flesh to stone which forces 2 saves or be turned to stone.

If all else fails, he can typically flee a combat via spells such as planeshift due to his solars, or through simpler means such as through the ground while ethereal, or via gaseous form, and if he has had any time to prep, will probably have a contingency to teleport to a save location).

His lesser cloak of displacement is a first-line of defense against incoming attacks, and most importantly makes him completely immune to effects like Sneak Attack.

For the Warrior
The warrior's chances mostly come down to how geared he is. It's not really a matter of his class features, but how much he has prepared for. As a rule, I believe all warriors at high levels should strive for the following items.


Something that grants freedom of movement.
Something that grants death ward.
Something that grants mind blank.
Something that allows you to turn ethereal and possibly planeshift.
Something allowing for short range teleports, such as a cape of the mountebank, transdimensional anklets, etc.
Something that grants true seeing.


It doesn't matter how you get these effects, but most of them will probably need to be custom items. However, all of them are just spell-copiers, and you can use the basic formulas in the book to determine price. Personally, I prefer using the same mechanic used for boots of speed, so that you can use them in short duration spurts as a free action (in the case of death ward, ethereal jaunt and freedom of movement), and hopefully a few times per day in the case of the teleportation effect. True seeing is entirely for being able to spot any hidden allies, misdirections, illusions, and to spot invisible foes and such, and is just generally useful. It's a good candidate for a free-action activation short-duration effect as well.

Mainly, you must have something to counter mind raping (mind blank), scrying (mind blank), true seeing (mind blank), movement impairing and grappling (freedom of movement), instant death (death ward), negative energy effects (death ward), and energy drain (death ward). The etherealness is just so you can chase a wizard to the ethereal when they try to pull the above trick on you, because it's simple and damn effective. The short-ranged teleport abilities like dimension door or dimension slide are used both offensively and defensively; typically used to close distance with the casters, or to escape being pinned, trapped, or otherwise put in a bad situation where you wish you were somewhere else.

Summary
Knot Opey is using core rules and tactics. He's not using splat spells. He is also using NPC equipment, and would be stronger as a PC due to the fact he would probably have better stats (in anything higher than 15 PB), and would have far more wealth. Warriors need good equipment not for killing but for countering common debuffs and tactics at this level. If you are playing a game where you cannot buy, beg, borrow, or create these things, you are effectively screwed. If you are at the mercy of your GM and he believes that warriors just need +X weapons and +Y armor, you will lose. While spellcasters will likely have access to these items as well (if not more readily), warriors benefit from them far more (most casters have counters for most of these already, or aren't hindered by them as much, in the case of exhaustion and such).

However, if warriors know what they're doing, and have all of the above equipment (much of it affordable by about 10th level or so, if you're going with the 1/day boots of speed style spread), the warrior can put up a fight, put the caster on the defensive, and possibly even kill him if he plays his cards right.

[olentu]

Death Knell is your friend. As are "cast spell as a spell like ability up to once per round. As are lots and lots of dying rats. Put them out of their misery all at once.

Also wherever Greater Consumptive Field got printed first, I bet it didn't have the caster level increase cap. (WoTC can be so arbitrary about fixing broken abilities)

I am rather sure that the consumptive field spells had the caster level increase in Libris Mortis. I suppose they could have been printed elsewhere before that but if they were I do not recall where that might be.

[kulosle]

I'm suprised no ones posted a beholder mage.

I'm tempted to post a bard build, because I love bards too much.

[gkathellar]

I'm suprised no ones posted a beholder mage.

There's kind of already a definitive Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage build ... and it's at a level of cheese most people don't even want to contemplate.

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, I've tried to refrain from posting uber-cheese. It's easy to dismiss a beholder mage as being overly cheesy and unlikely to be allowed in a campaign. But a cleric using Divine Metamagic the way it was intended to become essentially unkillable? A wizard who uses Foresight, contingencies and/or Celerity to always stay alive and get a preemptive strike in? Those don't require any special cheese. All they need is a feat printed in a widely accepted book and a couple of spells. That's not being cheesy, that's just being brutally effective with the resources provided.

[HMS Invincible]

Can someone explain to me how celerity + magic item third eye clarity negates said celerity's daze? You only get 1 swift(or immediate) action per turn, and you just used it to cast celerity. Does the celerity line come with swift actions in addition to whatever it grants you?

[Hirax]

There are ways to gain multiple swift/immediate actions, such as being shapechanged into a chronotyryn. I favor chronotyryn over dire tortoise for shapechange, personally. Though because you can change forms as a free action once each round, you can get the best of both worlds.

edit: additionally, if you're using celerity to get cast time stop, you can just use the third eye during the time stop.