[3.5] Changeling Build: Advice Needed

[MajorWubba]

My group is starting an evil campaign immediately after we finish our current one, in which I am playing a Warforger Charger Barbarian 7 who is hardly optimized. I have never played a subtle- type character before, even the wizard I played my first campaign was focused on evocations. I'm actually going to try to plan my character this time, though so here goes.

Changeling
Cabinet Trickster 5/ Mindspy 5/ Warshaper 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue 1/ Monk 1/ Assassin 1

In order,
Rogue
Monk
Monk
Rogue
Rogue
Assassin
Cabinet Trickster
Mindspy
Cabinet Trickster
Mindspy
Cabinet Trickser
Mindspy
Cabinet Trickster
Cabinet Trickster
Warshaper
Warshaper
Mindspy
Warshaper
Mindspy
Warshaper

I'm not really sure about feats beyond the obvious TWF, Personality Immersion, and Double Hit.

My current worries with this build are:

Low BAB

Mild MAD

The order of the classes- this order just seems to leave me a bit vulnerable at some points, but I can't think of anything better


Any constructive criticism is more than welcome.

[Ason]

A few things:

1) I have always wanted to play a Changeling warshaper but never had the opportunity to do it, so tip of the hat to you!

2) What are your ability scores? That obviously affects what we can recommend. Also, what's your starting level? Any unique DM restrictions/homebrew stuff for us to work with or around?

3) Talk to your DM about Warshaper. There is a HUGE debate about whether Changelings qualify for it (fellow Playgrounders, let's please avoid that fight for now, okay?). Regardless of what we random people on the internet think, your DM's ruling on Warshaper's legality is the only real thing that matters in your situation. You can look at the many other threads on this topic for more info, if you want.

4) What are the essentials for this build for you- what do you want most from it? I'm guessing Changeling shapeshifting, body parts that turn into weapons and doppelganger-like mental abilities. That puts you more in a rogue position, in my humble opinion. I bring it up because you'll want to consider how your PC will contribute to the overall party.

5) I'm guessing this will come up eventually, so I'll just get it over with now. Is Tome of Battle allowed? Someone is going to suggested Unarmed Swordsage, I guarantee it.

6) There's more to say (I haven't even gone into potential build ideas), but those questions will do for now. In the meantime, I'll see if I can dig up one of my old builds for this kind of thing.


Good luck! I hope this character works out for you! :smallsmile:

[MajorWubba]

1) I've been fascinated by the Warshaper's flavor ever since I got Complete Warrior, and it fits with the personality of the character.

2) 17, 17, 15, 14, 13, 9

3) I have not yet been able to speak with him, since he is currently on a mission trip in Peru, so I organized the order of the levels so that I reach Cabinet Trickster 5 and get Change Shape officially before I go into Warshaper, though I would love to have Morphic Body/ Healing sooner.

4) I'm definitely going a rougish route with this one, more social than combat, though I would like for him to be able to kill things, too. I'm not worrying too much about Sneak Attack since Changelings get 2 dice automatically, but every little bit helps.

5) ToB has not made an appearance in our group yet, so the DM has not ruled one way or another on it, but usually, if it exists, we are allowed to use it, unless it's homebrew, in which case we have to run it by him first.

[Keegan__D]

3) Talk to your DM about Warshaper. There is a HUGE debate about whether Changelings qualify for it (fellow Playgrounders, let's please avoid that fight for now, okay?). Regardless of what we random people on the internet think, your DM's ruling on Warshaper's legality is the only real thing that matters in your situation. You can look at the many other threads on this topic for more info, if you want.

This debate sprouts from one thing. Ignorance. If anyone on the side saying it can't be done would simply look at the two, the argument would be over.
Prerequisite: Shapechanger subtype (lycanthropes, phasm).
Shapechanger Subtype: Changelings are humanoids with the shapechanger subtype.
Done!


I'm not worrying too much about Sneak Attack since Changelings get 2 dice automatically, but every little bit helps.

Wut?


Also, what do you have against evasion? one level monk, one level rogue? is one more too much for a life-saving ability? The monk even comes with a bonus feat.

[MajorWubba]

This debate sprouts from one thing. Ignorance. If anyone on the side saying it can't be done would simply look at the two, the argument would be over.
Prerequisite: Shapechanger subtype (lycanthropes, phasm).
Shapechanger Subtype: Changelings are humanoids with the shapechanger subtype.
Done!

I will certainly use this point in my inevitable argument with the DM.


Wut?


Also, what do you have against evasion? one level monk, one level rogue? is one more too much for a life-saving ability? The monk even comes with a bonus feat.

I would love to have evasion, and will probably drop Swashbuckler to go monk one more level, but I went that particular route to make sure that Move Silently, Hide, Disguise, and Concentration were all class skills, as they are required for Assassin, Cabinet Trickster, and Mindspy.

[Keegan__D]

I will certainly use this point in my inevitable argument with the DM.



I would love to have evasion, and will probably drop Swashbuckler to go monk one more level, but I went that particular route to make sure that Move Silently, Hide, Disguise, and Concentration were all class skills, as they are required for Assassin, Cabinet Trickster, and Mindspy.

You'd get less skill points, but putting your rogue level later would mean a higher cap on the skills you need. Since you've got a good Int score, you could probably get half the skills needed for Assassin in that time. Are you taking Assassin for Death Attack?

[MajorWubba]

I am going Assassin for Death Attack, mainly, but also poison use.

I'm not sure I really understand what you mean by a higher skill cap. Isn't the cap always ECL+3?

[Keegan__D]

I am going Assassin for Death Attack, mainly, but also poison use.

I'm not sure I really understand what you mean by a higher skill cap. Isn't the cap always ECL+3?

Death Attack is kind of useless unless you go full Assassin and have a good Int score. The DC is too low to be worth waiting three rounds. If you want poison use and an extra sneak attack, it's great, considering there's no feat investment.

It is, and at level 1, the skill cap is 4. Not enough to sink a bunch of points into skills. At level 5, it's 8, meaning you can get all 8 in the same go, not having to multiclass back and forth.

[MajorWubba]

I mostly envisioned Death Attack being used outside of combat. DnD doesn't have a lot of support for precision "one hit one kill", and the DM doesn't allow "I stab him in the back of the neck", you have to actually have an ability to do such precise attacks.

I see what you meant by the skill cap, I'll change that if we aren't starting from level 1, but if we are, i'll keep rogue first for flavor.

I think i'll drop Swashbuckler; I don't think it's worth burning three levels for around +2 or 3 damage.

EDIT: Reviewing the DC for Death Attack, I'll go farther into Assassin. Forgot the bit about class level.

[Keegan__D]

I mostly envisioned Death Attack being used outside of combat. DnD doesn't have a lot of support for precision "one hit one kill", and the DM doesn't allow "I stab him in the back of the neck", you have to actually have an ability to do such precise attacks.

I've had similar problems, and it's kind of dreadful when the commoner target manages to live through the assassination attempt because you had to use a concealed weapon.

[MajorWubba]

A hobgoblin once lived through an assassination by the party sneak (not me) who was trying to lift the gate for a hobgoblin outpost, and promptly brought hell down upon us in the form of the entire garrison.

Is Swashbuckler worth it, do you think? The extra damage would be helpful, but I'm not sure it's worth three levels.

[Keegan__D]

Is Swashbuckler worth it, do you think? The extra damage would be helpful, but I'm not sure it's worth three levels.

Not in the slightest. Look at higher levels. The tiny amount of damage is definitely not worth it. The money spent on Int-boosting items is better spent on magical items or just strength-boosting.
The Swashbuckler is for classes who either have a huge Int score and don't like Wizard (or want a dip of damage), flavor, or for the misc stuff it provides.

Forgot to follow up. What did you mean when you said the changeling comes with two sneak attack?

[MajorWubba]

Ah, that. The MM3 listing for Changeling says under the combat section that they have a racial 2d6 sneak attack.

[Keegan__D]

Ah, that. The MM3 listing for Changeling says under the combat section that they have a racial 2d6 sneak attack.

No, that's a changeling spy. A monster with class levels (note the three levels of rogue). If the changeling indeed had sneak attack in that book, it would be on the one directly to the right as well.

[MajorWubba]

So it is. Well. Sneak Attack is now something to worry about. I'll go further into both rogue and assassin.