Keeping a Rogue Alive in E6

[Zaq]

I like Rogues. They're one of my favorite classes I've never played. I've toyed with the idea of building a backup one in my E6 campaign, but one thing has stopped me . . . namely, how the hell do you keep one alive? As I see it, they're one of the squishiest classes without some built-in way of protecting themselves (there are others, but they're up there). Add in the wrinkle that in our campaign, items that the book lists as having a CL above 6 simply don't exist (it's a houserule, don't try to fight it)—which means no DEX-boosting items, for one—and you have a class that's meant to stand in very dangerous places without a good way of making them less dangerous. In a high-level campaign, there's always HiPS, UMD of all kinds of great defensive spells, having enough DEX to have an AC/touch AC worth noticing, and so on. In E6, though . . . the majority of those just aren't options. You also can't get into full blender mode in E6, so just killing everything you get near isn't much of an option either.

Basically, without HiPS on the table (thus making in-combat stealth very unreliable), how would you keep an E6 Rogue upright but still useful? What good defensive options are out there?

[dextercorvia]

Why is HiPS off the table? Templates are quite affordable in E6 -- Can you get one of the better Dark Templates?

You also can go full blender. Start as a RotD WE Kobold, add Unseelie Fey and Dark Template (if available).

For feats, you want Dragon Tail (RotD), Multiattack, and eventually Aberrant Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Deepspawn.

That will have you rocking 6 natural attacks at reach. You'll want pounce -- Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws, and Open Least Chakra work for two feats.

[Zaq]

Basically, my group as a whole is very not fond of templates or anything that has LA, and we pretty much soft-ban them. (Yes, we know about the "LA = reduced PB" rules for E6. We don't like them.)

Good call on the natural attack route. I'd done something not entirely dissimilar with a Spellthief long ago, but the idea totally slipped my mind for Rogues (probably because I don't like kobolds, but that's not the only way to do things, after all). Of course, that's really not reducing your glass cannon status . . . just making the cannon part bigger.

[Ozreth]

It saddens me that over the years "keeping a character alive" has come to rely on the numbers and terms on a character sheet rather than player creativity and improvisation.

You keep a rogue alive by staying one step ahead, cunning, quick wits etc. Your DM should cater to this.

[NeoSeraphi]

In-combat stealth for a level 6 rogue is pretty much a wand of invisibility and the Spring Attack feat.

That said, rogues are awful at surviving, and at low-levels even moreso. I would personally suggest a wand of mirror image, but that of course still runs the risk that you get filleted. Try a wand of displacement, maybe.

You may be noticing a pattern here. With light armor proficiency, d6 hit dice, and limited magic item access, you are reduced to playing a hiding wizard-lite gish, only you rely on skill checks to cast your three or four spells known.

Solution? Play an archer. Nothing says "I can survive" like not being there. Be a wild elf so you get +2 Dex and longbow proficiency without a Con penalty, and have fun sniping people with 3/4 BAB and no bonus archery feats.

[Zaq]

It saddens me that over the years "keeping a character alive" has come to rely on the numbers and terms on a character sheet rather than player creativity and improvisation.

You keep a rogue alive by staying one step ahead, cunning, quick wits etc. Your DM should cater to this.

That part pretty much goes without saying, but there's plenty of times when all the creativity in the world won't stop an axe being swung at you. We're not playing Kobolds Ate My Baby, and you can't just narrate your way away from people making attacks at you. You have to fight numbers with numbers and game elements with game elements.

What you're talking about, as I understand it, is great for setting up encounters in your favor . . . but we both know you can't rely on that all the time. The rest of the time? Well, I'd like more than a d6 HD and leather armor between me and the snarling wolves. I want a way to get away, a way to make them not attack me, a way to make their attacks miss, or whatever.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, I'd like more than a d6 HD and leather armor between me and the snarling wolves. I want a way to get away, a way to make them not attack me, a way to make their attacks miss, or whatever.

Survival is not a rogue's strong point. Especially at low levels. Even with a +1 chain shirt and 18 Dex, you're looking at 19 AC, which a CR 3 ogre will hit 45% of the time.

Again, I strongly suggest you play an archer. There are much better classes for this, of course, but archery is how rogues survive. (That and spending money to copy Tier 1 class features)

[dextercorvia]

Warforged works too, but it doesn't qualify for Aberrant Blood, etc, and you won't get the BAB for Second Slam.

You will probably need to grab a Totemist2 dip. Along those lines, you should invest in Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (the extra Con won't hurt), and go full bore into Totem Bound Manticore Belt. By level 6, you have 4 ranged attacks as a standard action, which means you keep your mobility. Ranged means higher survivability.

[Kenneth]

I am just going to say this and admit it might be (and probably is) a derialemt.. but how does a Rogue Not stay alive?


maybe the rogues that my groups have played with are doing it wrong... but them being scared of dieing as d=badly as it seems the overhwelming majority of GiTPers are completely boggles my mind.


Its just.. i can't wrap my head around how somebody with stealth skills is afriad of dieing as neutoicly as they all make it out to be,

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can get Hide in Plain Sight in E6:
Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) gets Hide in Plain Sight available as a Rogue special ability, provided you first have Camouflage;
The E6 Rogue capstone feat gives you a Rogue special ability, but can be taken only once;
Underfolk from Races of Destiny (+0 LA) gets a Camouflage racial ability, which should be sufficient to allow you to gain Hide in Plain Sight.

[NeoSeraphi]

I am just going to say this and admit it might be (and probably is) a derialemt.. but how does a Rogue Not stay alive?


maybe the rogues that my groups have played with are doing it wrong... but them being scared of dieing as d=badly as it seems the overhwelming majority of GiTPers are completely boggles my mind.


Its just.. i can't wrap my head around how somebody with stealth skills is afriad of dieing as neutoicly as they all make it out to be,

It's because unless you are an archer (most rogues aren't) you have to get into melee range to fight as a rogue. And if you do, your d6 hit dice and Dex/Int/Cha (and not Con) dependency means you'll go down in one to two full-round attacks from half the creatures in the Monster Manual.

Here's an example. An assassin vine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/assassinVine.htm) is a CR 3. A rogue will not beat the assassin vine's +12 grapple check. That is not going to happen. Even with full ranks in Escape Artist and 18 Dex, you're looking at a +8 bonus (factoring in the -2 ACP from your chain shirt), less if you don't have 18 Dex. If the assassin vine entangles you first, which it will, you have a -4 Dex penalty, so a +6 to Escape Artist.

So the rogue is going to get strangled here. The assassin vine deals 1d6+7, or automatically more than your maximum hit points rolled per level, +1d6. If the assassin vine deals an average of 10 damage per round, and you have 20 hit points, you're dead.

Understand? Hide and Move Silently don't help you live through combat. They help you avoid combat.

[Daftendirekt]

Honestly, in E6, I think scout would be the better choice rather than rogue. Higher hit dice, same amount of skill points, also has precision damage (which gives bonus AC too!) and fast movement (which helps get away from death).

[Kenneth]

It's because unless you are an archer (most rogues aren't) you have to get into melee range to fight as a rogue. And if you do, your d6 hit dice and Dex/Int/Cha (and not Con) dependency means you'll go down in one to two full-round attacks from half the creatures in the Monster Manual.

Here's an example. An assassin vine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/assassinVine.htm) is a CR 3. A rogue will not beat the assassin vine's +12 grapple check. That is not going to happen. Even with full ranks in Escape Artist and 18 Dex, you're looking at a +8 bonus (factoring in the -2 ACP from your chain shirt), less if you don't have 18 Dex. If the assassin vine entangles you first, which it will, you have a -4 Dex penalty, so a +6 to Escape Artist.

So the rogue is going to get strangled here. The assassin vine deals 1d6+7, or automatically more than your maximum hit points rolled per level, +1d6. If the assassin vine deals an average of 10 damage per round, and you have 20 hit points, you're dead.

Understand? Hide and Move Silently don't help you live through combat. They help you avoid combat.

so.. what you are saying is.. most people don;t play rogues liek rogues.. but fighters with d6 HP and light armor?

Now I see what the difference is here between my groups and most other peoples groups.

[Zaq]

Honestly, in E6, I think scout would be the better choice rather than rogue. Higher hit dice, same amount of skill points, also has precision damage (which gives bonus AC too!) and fast movement (which helps get away from death).

And I do, in fact, have a Scout as a backup character. Have for some time, as a matter of fact.

It occurs to me that Spring Attack might not be a huge waste in E6. You do have the feats for it (not that you don't have anything else to do with them, of course), you probably weren't going to get multiple swings a round anyway if you weren't going for TWF or natural weapons, and it'll keep you out of harm's way. That might actually be an option. I don't usually think about it, since it's usually such a waste. If there's a time and a place for it, though, it'd be in E6.

[NeoSeraphi]

so.. what you are saying is.. most people don;t play rogues liek rogues.. but fighters with d6 HP and light armor?

Now I see what the difference is here between my groups and most other peoples groups.

Exactly. A rogue is a player with two knives. He needs to fight in melee to do damage (because Sneak Attack is really hard to get off with a bow) and he gets owned by a creature in melee range.

At later levels this isn't too bad, because you can get a wand of greater invisibility or something, but that's not an option in Zaq's situation, so he shouldn't be playing a rogue. (You really shouldn't ever play a rogue, but that's just my own personal opinion)

[KoboldCleric]

I have had a fair amount of success in low level games in the past using readied move actions to avoid attacks. Combine with travel devotion, spring/flyby attack, mounted combat, or any other source of extra movement as appropriate.

[Kenneth]

My advice would be to stealth around a battle field and be an opporunistic combantant..

Ive never ever seen a player try to be a bruiser with a rogue, the idea to me is just short of.. no actually its is the definiton of a foolish endeavor.

all the rogues ive played with go around stealthed and when an moment of opportunity comes along they unleashes the core rogue style backstab in teh spleen.


if you want to play a guy who just walks up and trades punches with somebody shouldn' tyou just be a barbarian?

I think the whole playing a rogue.. only playing them not how you are suppsoed to ( in my opinion) is probably teh biggest reaon why everybody thinks rogues are auto death.

agian.. if you want a bruiser why ar eyou playing a class based around stealthed and precise attacks?

the whole idea is completely foreign to me.

[NeoSeraphi]

My advice would be to stealth around a battle field and be an opporunistic combantant..

Ive never ever seen a player try to be a bruiser with a rogue, the idea to me is just short of.. no actually its is the definiton of a foolish endeavor.

all the rogues ive played with go around stealthed and when an moment of opportunity comes along they unleashes the core rogue style backstab in teh spleen.


Backstab is a 2.E ability. In 3.5, you have to be flanking, which means you have to attack a creature that is already engaged in combat with one of your allies, from the exact opposite square that your ally is engaging. And if you hit, you deal weapon damage, plus 1d6 per odd rogue level, not x2 or x4. And creatures in 3.5 have way more hit points than they did in 2.E, so yeah. Rogues need to do more than one attack to bring a creature down.

If you sit around and wait for an opportunity to strike, you're not contributing to the battle, and your teammates won't be happy with you (and you won't be having much fun).



if you want to play a guy who just walks up and trades punches with somebody shouldn' tyou just be a barbarian?

I think the whole playing a rogue.. only playing them not how you are suppsoed to ( in my opinion) is probably teh biggest reaon why everybody thinks rogues are auto death.

agian.. if you want a bruiser why ar eyou playing a class based around stealthed and precise attacks?

the whole idea is completely foreign to me.

It's not that people want to play a bruiser, it's that that's the only effective way to deal damage with a rogue in 3.5. If you don't dual-wield kukris and crit-fish with Weapon Finesse and flanking, you're pretty much dealing 7-10 damage per attack, even at level 20.

[Zaq]

Simple, Kenneth: because combats take more than one round. Or, to put it another way, I'd like to matter in more than one round of combat.

If you can hide, of course you do. If you can go into combat from a stealthy position, you do so without thinking twice. That goes without saying. But once you attack, you're not hidden anymore . . . but there's a good chance there's still something trying to kill you. You can run away and hide, sure, but that's 1) not very helpful to the party and 2) not very much fun, now is it?

I mean, if your combats literally last one round, then sure, stealth is all you need. That's not the game I play, though.

[NeoSeraphi]

Back on topic, Zaq, Spring Attack really is a pretty decent feat for an E6 game, especially if you're playing a scout instead of a rogue. Scouts have Disable Device as a class skill post errata, and they have much better ranged precision options than rogues.

I think you'd be more effective, less likely die, and have more fun as a scout than a rogue.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

My newest favorite rogue build dips a level of wizard...

this gives you a familiar that gives you a bonus to a skill or a save, and a few spells per day to help you out... just another trick up the sleeve, so to speak.

This also allows you to auto-succeed at UMD checks for any item that cast spells from the wizard list. this opens up a lot of common wands and scrolls you may find.

remember, you can use wands, and won't suffer from ASF. scrolls will still incur arcane spell failure though. the no ASF helps an armored rogue out quite a bit.

I'd snag a Wand Bracer from Dungeonscape, as well as install Wand Chambers (also from Dungeonscape) into your weapon and a MW buckler. (Rogues dont have shield prof. but if its MW they incur no penalty on the buckler). The buckler will allow you to have a hand open for wands or scrolls, and the wand chambers will allow you to have your two favorite wands always readied and "wielded". you'll probably want to roll with a rapier. The Wand Bracer will allow you to have up to five wands accessible to be drawn with said free hand with a swift action. Only drawback is you must drop the wand you have in hand (a free action) to draw a different wand. So remember to pick up your wands at the end of battle, and don't let any any surviving enemies run off with them... they could potentially be used against you later.

Point is, you can always have three wands readied and "wielded" with a buckler and wand chambers installed in said buckler and your weapon, and your buckler hand holding the third wand. With a Wand Bracer, you have access to five more wands with a swift action draw.

For a rogue with wands, I usually get: Swift Invisibility (for rapid escapes and quick Sneak Attack damage), Expeditious Retreat, Acid Splash (ranged touch attack, can also be used to damage locks, etc.) Darkvision, Blur, Invisibility (for "long" scouting missions) Improved Invisibility (expensive, but almost guaranteed Sneak attack) Lesser Vigor (out of combat healing) and maybe True strike. It's expensive, but worth it if you have the gold.

Since you you do have low level (but still very useful) spells from your wizard level, grab a Twilight Mithril Chainshirt, or some other low ASF armor, and a mithril buckler when possible.

Alternately, you could get a level of Assassin or Avenger... the spell list isn't as expansive, but it is still has good, to the point spells, and assassin has some nice splatbook spells. Remember, as long as the spell is on your spell list (even if you can't cast it yet) you can use a spell trigger item. I prefer Rogue 1/Wizard 1/ Rogue X because you gain access to more, and better, spells earlier (level 2) than Assassin (level 6), at the cost of 1 BAB, 7 skill points, and an average of 1 HP.

I always have a 14 in CON as a rogue, and Improved Toughness isn't a bad feat for a rogue, nor is Iron Will. Not the best, but still quite useful.

Sorry for the long post! :smallbiggrin:

[W3bDragon]

My newest favorite rogue build dips a level of wizard...

I was going to suggest the same, but for a different reason. 1 level wizard dip with abrupt jaunt increases your survivability significantly.

If you don't take that route, the scout spring attacker seems sound as well.

[The Gilded Duke]

I'd actually set up a 1 level dip in warlock to pick up Darkness as an at will spell like ability. (Also eldritch blast isn't bad for sneak attacking with) Then pick up the feat from Drow of the Underdark that lets you use a Darkness spell like ability to hide in plain sight. If you want more feat investment there are also feats that make your darkness count as deeper darkness or have a very long duration. A second level of Warlock can let you see through any sort of darkness.

[Cieyrin]

You can get Hide in Plain Sight in E6:
Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) gets Hide in Plain Sight available as a Rogue special ability, provided you first have Camouflage;
The E6 Rogue capstone feat gives you a Rogue special ability, but can be taken only once;
Underfolk from Races of Destiny (+0 LA) gets a Camouflage racial ability, which should be sufficient to allow you to gain Hide in Plain Sight.

Warlock + Blend Into Shadows gets you at will HiPS as well.


And I do, in fact, have a Scout as a backup character. Have for some time, as a matter of fact.

It occurs to me that Spring Attack might not be a huge waste in E6. You do have the feats for it (not that you don't have anything else to do with them, of course), you probably weren't going to get multiple swings a round anyway if you weren't going for TWF or natural weapons, and it'll keep you out of harm's way. That might actually be an option. I don't usually think about it, since it's usually such a waste. If there's a time and a place for it, though, it'd be in E6.

Do you want to be straight Rogue 6 or just mostly Rogue, as there's a fine distinction between the two and very different approaches to dealing with it. In either example, alchemy is not a bad idea in the slightest in E6. Example: Tanglefoot bags and Smokesticks. It's harder for things to come up and gank you if they can't move or can't find you. :smallamused:

[Dsurion]

(You really shouldn't ever play a rogue, but that's just my own personal opinion)That's a pretty strong statement :smalleek:


Do you want to be straight Rogue 6 or just mostly Rogue, as there's a fine distinction between the two and very different approaches to dealing with it. In either example, alchemy is not a bad idea in the slightest in E6. Example: Tanglefoot bags and Smokesticks. It's harder for things to come up and gank you if they can't move or can't find you. :smallamused:Alchemy isn't bad if you're willing and able to keep buying things as a straight Rogue. Otherwise, keep in mind you have to have at least one level in some kind of caster class to get Craft (Alchemy).

[NeoSeraphi]

That's a pretty strong statement :smalleek:


I have pretty strong feelings about rogues, especially when it comes to their survivability (or complete and total lack of it). I also hate elves, though not quite to the same extent. (I wouldn't say no one should ever play an elf)

Edit: Personally, I don't see why everyone calls the monk poster boy for MAD when the rogue has much bigger issues.

Rogue has the absolute lowest hit dice for a melee character. So you need Constitution. Check.

Rogue has the absolute largest skill list in core. So you need Intelligence. Check. (8 skill points per level, 26 class skills, and that's not including Craft, Perform, or Profession)

Rogues either want to TWF or they want to be archers, to make the most out of their Sneak Attack. So you need Dexterity to qualify for weapon-style feats. 19 Dexterity, for the best ones. Also you need it as your only true source of AC, to add to all your rogue stealth skills, and to use your Evasion ability. Dexterity, check.

Rogue has every Charisma-based skill except Handle Animal as a class skill. With squishy hit dice, you want to be able to talk your way out of things. So you need high Charisma. Check.

If you don't want to die from phantasmal rogue killer, you need high Wisdom. It's not really that much of an issue, so long as you don't mind being charmed, dominated, and falling victim to every illusion in the book.

And you need just enough Strength to prevent yourself from having a damage penalty on your melee rolls. So 10 Str. Check.

Not to mention the feat tax. Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack to be a skirmisher. Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting to be a bruiser. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Greater Manyshot to be an archer. And you get no bonus feats, unless you want to take away from your clever rogue tricks, which are pretty much your only class feature other than Fistful of d6 (Ex).

Yep. The rogue is pretty much just an awfully designed class, in my opinion. But that's just because I've seen 7 or 8 rogues die horrible, horrible deaths at the tables I play at. (And we played a long game without a rogue. Traps were aplenty. They didn't bother us quite as much as you'd think. In fact, it was much more entertaining to walk into a trap and have to deal with it than to simply have the rogue deactivate it, even if it did cost us hit points every time)

[Cieyrin]

Alchemy isn't bad if you're willing and able to keep buying things as a straight Rogue. Otherwise, keep in mind you have to have at least one level in some kind of caster class to get Craft (Alchemy).

I'm aware, though there are ways around it. Greater Draconic Rite of Passage comes to mind, though that feels like overkill just to be able to brew up some Krazyglue, y'know?


I have pretty strong feelings about rogues, especially when it comes to their survivability (or complete and total lack of it). I also hate elves, though not quite to the same extent. (I wouldn't say no one should ever play an elf)

Edit: Personally, I don't see why everyone calls the monk poster boy for MAD when the rogue has much bigger issues.

Rogue has the absolute lowest hit dice for a melee character. So you need Constitution. Check.

Rogue has the absolute largest skill list in core. So you need Intelligence. Check. (8 skill points per level, 26 class skills, and that's not including Craft, Perform, or Profession)

Rogues either want to TWF or they want to be archers, to make the most out of their Sneak Attack. So you need Dexterity to qualify for weapon-style feats. 19 Dexterity, for the best ones. Dexterity. Check.

Rogue has every Charisma-based skill except Handle Animal as a class skill. With squishy hit dice, you want to be able to talk your way out of things. So you need high Charisma. Check.

If you don't want to die from phantasmal rogue killer, you need high Wisdom. It's not really that much of an issue, so long as you don't mind being charmed, dominated, and falling victim to every illusion in the book.

And you need just enough Strength to prevent yourself from having a damage penalty on your melee rolls. So 10 Str. Check.

Yep. The rogue is pretty much just an awfully designed class, in my opinion. But that's just because I've seen 7 or 8 rogues die horrible, horrible deaths at the tables I play at. (And we played a long game without a rogue. Traps were aplenty. They didn't bother us quite as much as you'd think. In fact, it was much more entertaining to walk into a trap and have to deal with it than to simply have the rogue deactivate it, even if it did cost us hit points every time)

I disagree about Str and Wis, as Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade + Sneak Attack makes that -1 or -2 to damage negligible when you add +1d6+3 or something silly like that. Force of Personality takes care of most Will saves that you care about. And saying Rogues need Con doesn't change the effect that so does everyone else in the game that expects to live to higher levels, b/c generally no matter how careful or clever you think you are, something will go wrong and something will hit you and HP is the measure that keeps you not dead. So, really, a Rogue can focus on Dex and Int, with a healthy respect for Con and Cha, and work. And really, just b/c you have face skills doesn't mean you are forced to be the face, especially if you have a Bard or Paladin in the party who can handle that themselves. Even if you want to be a secondary Face, that doesn't mean you need to have everything high or you need to put all your eggs in one basket. Let the Fighter or Barbarian focus on Intimidate, the Bards and Clerics can Diplomacy, Sorcerers and Rogues can and should Bluff.

[Coidzor]

It saddens me that over the years "keeping a character alive" has come to rely on the numbers and terms on a character sheet rather than player creativity and improvisation.

You keep a rogue alive by staying one step ahead, cunning, quick wits etc. Your DM should cater to this.

So you suggest doing away with the combat round, initiative count, etc. but don't propose any alternative? :smallconfused:

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Exactly. A rogue is a player with two knives. He needs to fight in melee to do damage... (You really shouldn't ever play a rogue, but that's just my own personal opinion)

Well, up until level 10 or so, a rogue with a buckler and and a rapier has more survivability and long term damage output over that of a TWF. TWF is too expensive, dangerous, and inaccurate and low levels.

ericgrau in fact did a lot of math to prove that, and made a very good case for it to me a couple years back.

the two knives rogue has a high theoretical damage output... but in practice, it fails, and sucks at survival as a result. Survival is rule one of playing a rogue.

If the TWF blender rogue is what you think of when you think "rogue", that is probably why you are of the opinion no one should play one. Because, again, a TWF rogue is often doomed to high mortality rates in the early levels, due to inaccuracy of attacks, generally low to mid AC, low HP for melee, and poor saves.

Again, I posit my suggestions for rogues:
1.) wear a MW buckler, wield a rapier, dagger, shortsword, whatever. a one handed weapon.
2.) max out UMD and/or (even better) dip a level of wizard, or (Even better than that), Cloistered Cleric with the Magic Domain. it never seems right flavor-wise for me, but its great.
3.) wear a wand bracer on your buckler arm.
4.) install wand chambers in both your main weapon and your buckler.
5.) pick up every wand, get your party to chip in on wands, buy wands.

UMD is hands down THE best skill in the game. as a rogue, you have it as a class skill, which not many other classes can say. with a wizard/cloistered cleric dip, you don't even need it, you succeed at it 100% of the time.

If you are NOT a caster, how do you remain relevant? By emulating as much of their universe, rule bending power as possible. What allows that? Wands, scrolls, and any item that allows you to cast a spell from it. How do you use them? by having a free hand (1H weapon, buckler) and a high UMD. (and/or level of wizard/cloistered cleric for auto success).

[Coidzor]

If a buckler really makes all that of a difference in surviability... are Dastana on the table?

[NeoSeraphi]

I disagree about Str and Wis, as Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade + Sneak Attack makes that -1 or -2 to damage negligible when you add +1d6+3 or something silly like that.


You mean Weapon Finesse, Martial Study (Shadow Hand), Martial Stance (Shadow Hand) and Shadow Blade, +Sneak Attack. Or a 1 level dip into another class. Not to mention how often Tome of Battle gets banned by DMs.



Force of Personality takes care of most Will saves that you care about.

YES! The rogue isn't a bad class! The rogue can solve all his problems with feats! FEATS! He totally gets about fourteen feats in 20 levels, since he needs them all to keep plugging the leaks that come out of his class in a can, right? Right?



And saying Rogues need Con doesn't change the effect that so does everyone else in the game that expects to live to higher levels, b/c generally no matter how careful or clever you think you are, something will go wrong and something will hit you and HP is the measure that keeps you not dead.


No, but it does count extra for a rogue, seeing a barbarian, with his average of twice his hit points and his ability to arbitrarily raise his Constitution as a class feature will be able to shoulder many more blows. If you have d6 hit dice and light armor proficiency, you're going to feel more pain from less Con. A lot more.



So, really, a Rogue can focus on Dex and Int, with a healthy respect for Con and Cha, and work. And really, just b/c you have face skills doesn't mean you are forced to be the face, especially if you have a Bard or Paladin in the party who can handle that themselves.

That's right! Just because you don't excel at combat, and your Dexterity based skills can all be completely overshadowed by a handful of 2nd level arcane spells, it doesn't mean you should try and do the one thing that you can be better than everyone else at! Oh, did I say better than everyone else? I'm sorry. Bards get glibness, don't hey?



Even if you want to be a secondary Face, that doesn't mean you need to have everything high or you need to put all your eggs in one basket. Let the Fighter or Barbarian focus on Intimidate

With their abysmally low skill points, lack of Int synergy, and the fact that the two best races for them in the PHB (dwarf and half-orc) both have a Charisma penalty...


the Bards and Clerics can Diplomacy

Right, because clerics don't spend all their skill points on Know (Religion), Concentration, and the other various skills they need to qualify for the three different prestige classes they plan on taking.


Sorcerers and Rogues can and should Bluff.

Ouch. See what you did there? The rogue, who is supposed to be useful out of combat? You took him and dismantled him down to one skill. That's not a good thing.

[Ivellius]

I, too, am starting to think a feat or two on soulmelds. Miss chance would be ideal, but it's hard to come by without the binds. Fellmist Robe helps if you're worried about non-adjacent enemies, but you're not so much. Wormtail Belt and Lammasu Mantle (against evil creatures) get you some non-armor AC bonuses, and Incarnate Avatar is similar but useless without essentia. Mantle of Flame might even be nifty--if they get hurt stabbing you, they might stab someone else.

And from the same book, what about Azure Toughness + Improved Toughness? It gets you a bit more survivability, at any rate. I also thought of the Cloak Dance feat, but the skill requirement on it is too high. Maybe those suggestions help.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

If a buckler really makes all that of a difference in surviability... are Dastana on the table?

I suppose? the buckler does make sense though... cheaper to enchant than a second blade, and it does go direct to AC. Nobody ever said no to a +5 buckler of Fortification...

I just think many DMs don't allow Dastanas, or don't know what they are, or something. I think they are fine, but... *shrug*

either way, it changes my suggestions not at all. some source of cheap AC o nthe arm that allows hand movement. Doesn't matter what you cal it. I like to reflavor my bucklers as a manica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manica_%28armguard%29), or armguard. whatever.

[Cieyrin]

If a buckler really makes all that of a difference in surviability... are Dastana on the table?

May as well throw a Charar-aina on there as well. Really, though, it's probably better to go Mithral Chain Shirts and MW Bucklers or Darkwood Bucklers, depending on how cheap you feel about and how much you want your off-hand to do.


You mean Weapon Finesse, Martial Study (Shadow Hand), Martial Stance (Shadow Hand) and Shadow Blade, +Sneak Attack. Or a 1 level dip into another class. Not to mention how often Tome of Battle gets banned by DMs.

YES! The rogue isn't a bad class! The rogue can solve all his problems with feats! FEATS! He totally gets about fourteen feats in 20 levels, since he needs them all to keep plugging the leaks that come out of his class in a can, right? Right?

Everybody has feats, why should we exclude them from the thought process? And every group has their own preference on books, its not just limited to ToB. There are groups that hate Incarnum, groups that ban Tier 1, I play with a group that think Warlocks and Hexblades are overpowered, despite the fact that I know better. That's not an excuse to dismiss it till proven that its not a source of content.


No, but it does count extra for a rogue, seeing a barbarian, with his average of twice his hit points and his ability to arbitrarily raise his Constitution as a class feature will be able to shoulder many more blows. If you have d6 hit dice and light armor proficiency, you're going to feel more pain from less Con. A lot more.

No, rogues are not a tank, I never said they were. Rogues are supposed to be strikers and skill monkeys, not that they can laugh off hits like axes tickle. No one in their right mind goes into combat alone and D&D is supposed to be a group game, with characters focusing on different strengths to cover other's weaknesses. Low HD and light armor means you want a friend who can take a hit up there with you or not make yourself seem like a threat or be targeted, which is where skills like Hide, Move Silently and UMD come in.


That's right! Just because you don't excel at combat, and your Dexterity based skills can all be completely overshadowed by a handful of 2nd level arcane spells, it doesn't mean you should try and do the one thing that you can be better than everyone else at! Oh, did I say better than everyone else? I'm sorry. Bards get glibness, don't hey?

Yes, because the Wizard and the Cleric can overshadow everything anyone else does, it means playing anything else is playing the game wrong. Nice, real nice.


With their abysmally low skill points, lack of Int synergy, and the fact that the two best races for them in the PHB (dwarf and half-orc) both have a Charisma penalty...

Regardless of your Int penalty, you still get 1 skill point per level. Keeping Intimidate maxed , going Zhentarim Fighter for free Skill Focus(Intimidate) and other goodies or going Human, who don't have a cha penalty, who get bonus skill points and who get a bonus feat to support doing things early and fast can go a long way towards doing well at Intimidate. Half-Orcs have lots of exclusive support for Intimidation as well, despite the Cha penalty. So yes, they both can and DO well as scary people.


Right, because clerics don't spend all their skill points on Know (Religion), Concentration, and the other various skills they need to qualify for the three different prestige classes they plan on taking.

Oh yes, b/c we weren't going on about how spells made these skills useless early on. Right...


Ouch. See what you did there? The rogue, who is supposed to be useful out of combat? You took him and dismantled him down to one skill. That's not a good thing.

The main problem I'm seeing you having with is you expect rogues to be good at everything they can possibly do at all times. No character can do such a thing, I don't care what class you are. Wizards choose spells to be good at some of things some of the time, same for any other caster. Just b/c a rogue has options doesn't mean he has to be good at everything he can do. Some rogues are faces, some rogues are archers, some rogues are mechanically inclined, some have a death wish. If you specialize towards that goal, you can do your job and do it well and have fun playing the game, too. Rogues are Tier 4, I know this, you know this, most of the rest of the thread knows this. Like any character, you can make them poorly and they will fail at being effective. That doesn't mean that people haven't made rogues they enjoy playing and who am I or you to tell them different, b/c isn't that the goal of the game, to have fun, yes?

[Seharvepernfan]

Wellllllll...in an E6 game, don't get into melee with superior melee opponents. Don't get close to the ogre or the assassin vine. Just don't. Save your full-attack flank attacks for squishier targets.

I'd get spring attack + rapier/buckler for the tough opponents if you insist on going into melee. Spring attack into a flanking position. Just watch out for readied attacks. Maybe even get a darkwood or mithril shield. Keep a handcrossbow/dagger/wand in the buckler hand in case you need them.

For things like the assassin vine? With a decent wis and ranks in spot, you'll likely be the most capable in the party at spotting them (except if there are druids or rangers), so stay back if possible. This would be a great time to whip out the alchemist fires. Don't forget, you get sneak attack to ranged touch attacks.

But yeah, use your scouting skills to figure out the enemies positions, then coordinate with the party to waylay them. If you can afford them, snag some archery feats. It's easier to get 30ft. away from somebody than into melee range without them noticing you. Shoot them, and with your good initiative, shoot them again (twice with rapid shot or twf daggers/hand crossbows) then run back to the party as the party runs to you.

With 5 ranks in tumble, you can increase the bonus to fighting defensively and total defense, so make use of them.

Consider that the main point of the rogue might not be to kill with sneak attack, but to enable the party to be better prepared in every fight. You scout and detect enemies before they detect you, return to the party and tell them whats up, the casters buff, then you move in and sneak attack, afterwhich the fighter and cleric charge in, giving you some relief and possibly causing enough of a distraction to get back to some cover for more sneak attacks or just ranged combat. Once you attack, yes you aren't hidden anymore, but if the other members of your party are in combat, you can possible get back into cover and emerge from it somewhere else hidden. The enemies in melee can't really keep track of you while fighting, can they?

I personally wouldn't bother with intimidate and diplomacy, I would stick to bluff and sense motive. If you have a decent charisma, the synergy bonuses to int from bluff and diplo from sense motive can give you a decent modifier to them with less ranks on your part. And the whole dwarves and halforcs having cha penalties making intimidate useless, remember that the defense against it is HD + wisdom, which on most non-beast opponents won't usually be very high, and if the figter/barbarian can get an enlarge person, their bonus goes up by 4.

[The Gilded Duke]

I don't think that the problem is with the rogue class itself, but a lot of ideas people have about building rogues.

The worst offender is the two weapon fighting dex based rogue.
3 feats to get dex to attack and damage
More feats for the multiple weapons.

So.. maybe 4 feats to start with, to be almost as good as a character with a two handed weapon.

So a few things to keep in mind...
Rogues can use two handed weapons
Rogues have simple weapon proficiency, nothing is stopping them from 2 handing a spear or longspear.

Rogues can be strength based
If you aren't trying to max out your stealth, your dexterity doesn't need to be that high, its not like it applies to search or disable device anyway.
So make strength your primary stat, it makes you hit (and sneak attack) more often, and adds to damage.

Nothing is stopping you from going with an Orc Rogue with 20 strength, 14 dex, a decent con and dumped wisdom and charisma. 1d8 + 7 + 1d6 SA isn't bad at first level, especially on a reach weapon.

Lastly specialization is good.
Rogues can be a party face, a trap monkey, a sneaker, a sage and a magic user. Don't try to be all of them at the same time.

If doing trap monkey, have a higher int to power Search and Disable Device.
If doing a sneaker, have a higher dex, and maybe go with a small sized race (goblin)
If you are maxing out Knowledge Local, why not pick up Knowledge Devotion, you can find out the abilities of humanoids with local checks.
If going Use Magic Device and Social skills, buff charisma.

Trying to do all those things at the same time doesn't work.

So if limited to 3.5, my two main Rogue Builds would probably be
(water) Orc focused on strength using a longspear
(air) Goblin going full dex based, darkstalker, usual weapon shortbow, with a scythe for coup de grace.

When you think about it, rogues have a built in power attack. They give up 5 BAB for +10d6 damage (+20 with craven). It might not always work, but there are tools for making it hit most of the time.

[Cieyrin]

Right, Duke, that's exactly what I mean. You aren't going to do well by trying to be everything, you'll be a master of none and the game dislikes generalists. If you specialize, you can have a character that does well at something you care about and have fun doing it.

[NeoSeraphi]

But if I'm already specializing, I can do everything a rogue can do better, with other classes. Better damage with a melee class, better sneaking as a scout or factotum (Int to Dex checks? Yes please), better unlocking as a wizard or a factotum, better UMD as a warlock, better face as a bard.

A rogue is a jack of all trades and a master of none. And the fluff of playing a rogue means nothing to me, so that's another reason I personally don't like them. They're MAD, they're defenseless, they're fragile, and they're overshadowed. And worst of all, I don't enjoy playing thieves. That's just not a character concept that appeals to me. I know fluff is transmutable, but certain things about rogues still just don't sit right with me or my characters.

Yes, not everyone wants to play a Tier 1 or Tier 2. But unlike the other Tier 4s (barbarian, ranger, duskblade, warmage) there is nothing unique, special or attractive about a rogue (to me). It's a pile of weaknesses with no real strengths.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

But if I'm already specializing, I can do everything a rogue can do better, with other classes. Better damage with a melee class, better sneaking as a scout or factotum (Int to Dex checks? Yes please), better unlocking as a wizard or a factotum, better UMD as a warlock, better face as a bard.

A rogue is a jack of all trades and a master of none. And the fluff of playing a rogue means nothing to me, so that's another reason I personally don't like them. They're MAD, they're defenseless, they're fragile, and they're overshadowed. And worst of all, I don't enjoy playing thieves. That's just not a character concept that appeals to me. I know fluff is transmutable, but certain things about rogues still just don't sit right with me or my characters.

Yes, not everyone wants to play a Tier 1 or Tier 2. But unlike the other Tier 4s (barbarian, ranger, duskblade, warmage) there is nothing unique, special or attractive about a rogue (to me). It's a pile of weaknesses with no real strengths.

Rogues are NOT just thieves. that is silly. Rogues are swashbucklers, bandits, street urchins, yes thieves, scouts, noblemen, diplomats, spies, wanderers, scholars, detectives, and vagabonds, just to name a few examples. Rogues are not, and should not, be cast as mere thieves. it is boringly cliche.

I have made exactly ONE rogue that was a thief. I have made many upon many rogues, and the vast, VAST majority were not thieves.

Perhaps it is not the Rogue as a class that is the problem, perhaps your perception of it. I have been playing D&D for a long time, and the rogue is NOT the same animal as a 2e thief. Similar in party role, but not much else.

The rogue sits decently as a tier 4 class for several reasons. In Pathfinder, the rogue got a facelift, and it spices up the rogue quite a bit, perhaps even enough to bump the rogue up a tier... probably just half of one though. in any case, it is still more exciting to play a rogue, I suggest you try the Pathfinder rogue in your next game, even if its 3.5. it certainly won't break the game, but might change your opinion of the class.

[The Gilded Duke]

I'll give you unlocking. I usually prefer the Adamantine Axe + Silence spell strategy of dealing with doors myself.
I'll give you better face as a bard.

But I disagree with you about the rest.
Lets put aside tome of battle for a moment as that can complicate things.
Melee Damage
Assuming no prestige classes.
Barbarian gets from class +8 Strength, and If I remember correctly there is a feat that brings that up to +12. So they get a +6 to attack, and +9 to damage from class.

They can also do the whole Power AttackShock Trooper setup, however so can rogues. Barbarians however have 5 more bab to trade away, so.. again with the right feats, that gives them +10 to damage.
Their BAB also makes it more likely for them to attack.

So Barbarians from class get +26 to attack +19 damage (with PA line)

A Rogue has +15 BAB, with no class boosts to hit. They get +10d6 damage. With Craven they get an additional +20 damage. They can still Power Attack, Shock Trooper, but don't have as much bab to play with.

Rogues get from class +15 to attack +55 Damage (35 damage average)

Barbarian gets +11 more to hit from class, rogue gets +36 more damage.
Both of them have limitations on usage. I'd say +11 to hit, or +36 damage per hit comes out about even.

I'm not sure how Scout gets better sneaking, the bonus feats? Factotum gets int to sneaking, but I don't think that actually contributes that much. If you are focusing on your int, your dex isn't as high and so on. Sure its easier to buff two stats then to buff one by the same amount, but in the end I don't think stats matter too much to a dedicated sneaker.

+23 Skill Ranks, +2 Circumstance, +15 Competence bonus, +10 enhancement bonus, and then if I remember correctly you can get another +6 or so from untyped bonuses.

Adding int as a stat gives you another maybe +4 over what you would have otherwise?

Yeah, I suppose Warlocks are better at UMD at low levels thanks to the whole take 10 thing. However at higher levels it is easier to raise up skill rolls, and rogues get their own much better take 10 ability.

As far as not liking the idea of rogue...
Zaq wants to make a rogue in e6. What's wrong with him wanting to play that sort of character?

[Cieyrin]

But if I'm already specializing, I can do everything a rogue can do better, with other classes. Better damage with a melee class, better sneaking as a scout or factotum (Int to Dex checks? Yes please), better unlocking as a wizard or a factotum, better UMD as a warlock, better face as a bard.

A rogue is a jack of all trades and a master of none. And the fluff of playing a rogue means nothing to me, so that's another reason I personally don't like them. They're MAD, they're defenseless, they're fragile, and they're overshadowed. And worst of all, I don't enjoy playing thieves. That's just not a character concept that appeals to me. I know fluff is transmutable, but certain things about rogues still just don't sit right with me or my characters.

Yes, not everyone wants to play a Tier 1 or Tier 2. But unlike the other Tier 4s (barbarian, ranger, duskblade, warmage) there is nothing unique, special or attractive about a rogue (to me). It's a pile of weaknesses with no real strengths.

Fine, you're entitled to the opinion that you don't like playing rogues mechanically or fluff-wise. The OP does, as otherwise I doubt he'd be asking for ideas on approaching a Rogue in E6. So, since I think we've come to a stalemate that you won't be persuaded otherwise of their merits or dissuading the OP from his, I think we should get back to the rails and leave the discussion of improving Rogues or making them viable in the narrative space you see them for.

So, I think before this discussion, I was wondering whether the OP wanted pure Rogue or something that focused on Rogue but would consider dips elsewhere...


As far as not liking the idea of rogue...
Cieyrn wants to make a rogue in e6. What's wrong with him wanting to play that sort of character?

Actually, it's Zaq's thread, not mine. :smalltongue:

[Zaq]

Heh. The chances of this character getting far enough in the design process to even get a proper name are miniscule (I have at least three or four E6 characters who could be ready to go with just a day or two's notice, and chances are good that this one would go to the end of the line), but I still think it's a topic worth discussing. Rogues are fragile enough as it is, and E6 (especially our brand of E6, which is a bit more restrictive than "standard" E6, especially for items) doesn't do them any favors. I figure I can't have been the first one to ponder this situation, though, which is why I made this topic in the first place.

Regarding the usefulness of Rogues as a whole . . . Rogues are the kind of T4 that works brilliantly when it works, and really struggles when it starts faltering. It's not just SA-immune enemies . . . plenty of skills are pretty all-or-nothing. Either your silver tongue will get you where you want to go, or it'll get you into a mess of trouble. Either your stealth works and you get great intel, or you are forcibly reminded that "scouting" is another term for splitting the party. That sort of thing. That said, I appreciate that they have a wide base of skills to draw from, and I appreciate that their skills can be (but, very importantly, do not have to be) a source of combat power, or you can keep the two separate (even if you can't bluff your way past the guards, you can still throw a pile of d6s at them). The versatility the Rogue offers is a different kind of versatility from what a lot of other classes have, and on some level, that appeals to me.

Certainly not without their problems, though, as we've discussed. Not gonna deny that.

[NeoSeraphi]

Assuming no prestige classes.
Barbarian gets from class +8 Strength, and If I remember correctly there is a feat that brings that up to +12. So they get a +6 to attack, and +9 to damage from class.

They can also do the whole Power Attack/Shock Trooper setup, however so can rogues. Barbarians however have 5 more bab to trade away, so.. again with the right feats, that gives them +10 to damage.
Their BAB also makes it more likely for them to attack.


You forget that barbarians get Pounce, so they can Shock Trooper 3-4 times per round, rather than once.



I'm not sure how Scout gets better sneaking, the bonus feats? Factotum gets int to sneaking, but I don't think that actually contributes that much. If you are focusing on your int, your dex isn't as high and so on. Sure its easier to buff two stats then to buff one by the same amount, but in the end I don't think stats matter too much to a dedicated sneaker.

+23 Skill Ranks, +2 Circumstance, +15 Competence bonus, +10 enhancement bonus, and then if I remember correctly you can get another +6 or so from untyped bonuses.

Adding int as a stat gives you another maybe +4 over what you would have otherwise?


Scouts are better sneaks because they have higher movement speed and a continuous freedom of movement effect. Factotums are better because you can spend money that you would otherwise spend on buffing your skill on buffing the stat that matters to the skill. A factotum archer will have about 26 Dex and 35 Int at level 20. That plus full ranks and whispergnome means +51 to Hide and +43 to Move Silently, with no circumstance or competence or untyped bonuses. So the factotum comes out as good as the rogue without needing to spend money on specific items that only enhance the skill, and if he does so, he comes out ahead of the rogue anyway.



Yeah, I suppose Warlocks are better at UMD at low levels thanks to the whole take 10 thing. However at higher levels it is easier to raise up skill rolls, and rogues get their own much better take 10 ability.


Yes, and at higher levels, the warlock can raise his skill levels up to the same amount that rogues can. So they're equal at higher levels, and the warlock is better at lower levels. I'm pretty sure that means the warlock comes out on top.



As far as not liking the idea of rogue...
Cieyrn wants to make a rogue in e6. What's wrong with him wanting to play that sort of character?

Nothing at all! That's why I was trying to help him with his problem! Notice that I didn't say anything about him not playing a rogue, I just suggested he play this role or that role, and I did say that a scout would probably be better for it.

It is my personal opinion that no one should play a PHB rogue (that's what homebrew is for) but that doesn't mean I'm going to push it on other people. We got tangled up in an out of topic debate over whether the rogue was a well-designed class or not, and for that I apologize, but I certainly don't think that Zaq wanting to play a rogue is wrong. There's a difference between thinking something is a bad idea and thinking that it's wrong.

[Zaq]

There's a difference between thinking something is a bad idea and thinking that it's wrong.

This is such an important point. I wish more people on the Internet (on BOTH sides of any given argument) would realize this.

Heh. Of course, I've been on both sides of it myself. I'm usually happy to offer suggestions of "instead of X, have you considered this X-like thing instead?"—but I'm no stranger to playing terrible classes because I can. (For the record, I don't think the Rogue is terrible . . . just flawed, and kind of a victim of PHB design.)

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

regardless of what Rogue build you use, you will want certain things: i.e. everything useful you can carry. Follows is my general equipment list for a rogue.

marbles, caltrops, flint and steel, tinder twigs, 50 ft silk rope, 50 ft twine, longspear/quarterstaff (for poking things), leather gloves (wear all the time), whetstone, empty canvas sack, torches (abandoned later for light spell or Darkvision), flask of acid (in case your open lock/disable device isn't enough), grappling hook, spyglass (if you can afford/find), 4 wooden stakes+small hammer, small wooden bowl, needle and thread, cork from liquor bottle, small magnet (or something magnetized), 1 week of dried trail rations, extra knife.

also, explorers outfit, comes with boots, aforementioned gloves, a heavy cloak, lots of pockets. Also, bedroll, waterskin, and an extra waterskin/canteen doesn't hurt.

everything you get NOT on this list is great too,this is just basics, as far as Im concerned. Also snag any cold iron, silver, etc weapons no one else wants, snag some holy/unholy water, and any other alchemical items/poisons you can pick up.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you play a kobold/totemist/whatever, you should snag Touch of Golden Ice from BoED for free ravages on all your natural attacks. The DC doesn't scale, but I don't even know if your saves go up in E6 past 6th level, so...have fun with that. (Even if it's only a 5% chance per natural attack, it's a 5% chance. Per natural attack)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warforged works too, but it doesn't qualify for Aberrant Blood, etc, and you won't get the BAB for Second Slam.

I don't see that anywhere, unless it's in the warforged racial stats.

[The Gilded Duke]

Aberrant Blood is humanoid only
Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Aberrant Blood is humanoid only

Really? :smallconfused:

[Cieyrin]

Really? :smallconfused:

Yep. You need blood to have aberrations in it.


One of your ancestors was an aberration and has passed the taint of its aberrant physiology down through the generations to you. This taint manifests physically in your appearance in some noticeable way.
Prerequisite: Humanoid.

[Urpriest]

A Curmudgeon-style Rogue is book-intensive, but it can manage survivability at mid-low levels, and should be up and running by level 6. I don't think he's ever made an explicit guide for it, but if you search for his posts you can probably find one that gives the build skeleton. I'm kind of surprised he hasn't posted here already actually.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

A Curmudgeon-style Rogue is book-intensive, but it can manage survivability at mid-low levels, and should be up and running by level 6. I don't think he's ever made an explicit guide for it, but if you search for his posts you can probably find one that gives the build skeleton. I'm kind of surprised he hasn't posted here already actually.

His build relies on snap Kick from ToB, and he recommends what I do: a single, 1H weapon with a buckler, though using Snap Kick as an extra (and superior to TWF) source of damage. He advocates the use of the Craven feat, as well as Staggering Strike (which OP does not have access to, BAB pre-req too high). I believe that was the core of the build, and I don't recall any of the less important specifics.

It is probably the best 3.5 rogue build, sadly, my group never used ToB, so I never got the chance to play. :smallfrown:

regardless of what build, I would still recommend a dip into wizard/cloistered cleric. reduces MAD (charisma for UMD) and gives you 100% access, no chance of failure, to many powerful magic items.

[dextercorvia]

He doesn't have access (by gentlemen's agreement) to the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave version of the Dark Template (or any other). Other than that, Big C's advice is usually to get Lightbringer Rogue's Penetrating Strike from EtCR + Craven. The survivable part of his Rogue is the ability to switch between Melee (Rapier) and Ranged (Bow). He also recommends a high spot modifier, so that you get more than your fair share of surprise rounds. Then, it is just a matter of never being in range of a full attack -- usually through a Cloistered Cleric dip swapping the Knowledge and Travel domains for their respected devotion feats (covering knowleged skills with the education feat), and keeping the Magic Domain, enabling most Arcane/Divine Wand use without a UMD check.

ETA: I forgot Snap Kick, but doesn't that have a BAB+6 requirement?

[Aquillion]

Edit: Personally, I don't see why everyone calls the monk poster boy for MAD when the rogue has much bigger issues.

Rogue has the absolute lowest hit dice for a melee character. So you need Constitution. Check.

Rogue has the absolute largest skill list in core. So you need Intelligence. Check. (8 skill points per level, 26 class skills, and that's not including Craft, Perform, or Profession)

Rogues either want to TWF or they want to be archers, to make the most out of their Sneak Attack. So you need Dexterity to qualify for weapon-style feats. 19 Dexterity, for the best ones. Also you need it as your only true source of AC, to add to all your rogue stealth skills, and to use your Evasion ability. Dexterity, check.

Rogue has every Charisma-based skill except Handle Animal as a class skill. With squishy hit dice, you want to be able to talk your way out of things. So you need high Charisma. Check.

If you don't want to die from phantasmal rogue killer, you need high Wisdom. It's not really that much of an issue, so long as you don't mind being charmed, dominated, and falling victim to every illusion in the book.

And you need just enough Strength to prevent yourself from having a damage penalty on your melee rolls. So 10 Str. Check.

Not to mention the feat tax. Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack to be a skirmisher. Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting to be a bruiser. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Greater Manyshot to be an archer. And you get no bonus feats, unless you want to take away from your clever rogue tricks, which are pretty much your only class feature other than Fistful of d6 (Ex).

Yep. The rogue is pretty much just an awfully designed class, in my opinion. But that's just because I've seen 7 or 8 rogues die horrible, horrible deaths at the tables I play at. (And we played a long game without a rogue. Traps were aplenty. They didn't bother us quite as much as you'd think. In fact, it was much more entertaining to walk into a trap and have to deal with it than to simply have the rogue deactivate it, even if it did cost us hit points every time)The thing is, a rogue doesn't have to do all of that. In particular, you don't need all your skills -- it's enough to focus on just a few of them (especially just the Dex ones.) That means you only need moderate int, str, and wis -- moderate meaning 'try to avoid a penalty, drop some spare points in there if you can, buy a cheap bonus item for that ability to swap to for skill checks later on when you have money to spare if it really bothers you.' And there's several ways to completely dump str (elven quickblades, ranged combat, etc.) The only stats you absolutely need are con and dex, which almost every class wants anyway -- from there, it's really your call; you can develop in various ways based on different stats, but you can play a reasonably effective rogue based just on con and dex, because collectively, even just your dex skills and sneak attack will give you several ways to contribute.

(And even just with a Cha of 10, you can still use basic UMD if you keep it maxed -- you want to avoid the really high-level hard-to-activate stuff anyway, because it's expensive. If you're trying to activate stuff that requires absolutely every possible bonus to UMD, maybe you should be playing a wizard?)

Monks, on the other hand, have much weaker and more schizophrenic features, so they need every last one of them. Sneak Attack > Flurry of Blows by so very, very much.

...obviously, this is slightly off-track, because some of it doesn't apply to E6. But the key point is that rogues don't need to use every single option available to them to be useful -- it's not like you can max every single rogue skill anyway.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

GOOD STUFF

Yeah, looks like you got it right. Penetratin Strike is a MUST ACF for a rogue, I always frogot because I play Pathfinder now. but yeah, dip cloistered cleric/wizard! :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

ETA: I forgot Snap Kick, but doesn't that have a BAB+6 requirement?

A quick googling says that yes it does. Checking the book says yes as well on page 32.

[dextercorvia]

A quick googling says that yes it does. Checking the book says yes as well on page 32.

Which makes it not viable for a Rogue in E6. That question was about 90% rhetorical.

[Coidzor]

Which makes it not viable for a Rogue in E6. That question was about 90% rhetorical.

Wasn't there a post 6th level feat in that E6 handbook put out by the guy who is credited as the one who came up with and codified it that had a feat for emulating 6 BAB for pre-requisites?

Or am I thinking of a commentary suggesting that DMs consider such a feat?

[dextercorvia]

Wasn't there a post 6th level feat in that E6 handbook put out by the guy who is credited as the one who came up with and codified it that had a feat for emulating 6 BAB for pre-requisites?

Or am I thinking of a commentary suggesting that DMs consider such a feat?

The fighters get a capstone feat that lets them meet BAB+8 prereqs.