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NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 02:50 AM
Vampire

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i467/HollowMoon/Vampires/Anime-Vampire.jpg
"He can't get in without an invitation!" *the window breaks, and a molotov cocktail explodes, blowing the door open* "You don't need an invitation if there's no house!" -Fright Night

Some historians claim that the legend of vampires started in Transylvannia during the rule of Vlad the Impaler, others say it was the result of uninformed commoner's descriptions of victims of anemia in old times.

Regardless of how the legends started, the fact is that vampires are the sexiest, baddest, deadliest undead around, and if a player wants to roll one, he should be able to without dealing with a +8 Level Adjustment.


Creating a Vampire
"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A vampire uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here:


Size and Type:
The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice:
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

Speed:
Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below).

Armor Class:
Same as the base creature

Attack:
A vampire retains all the attacks of the base creature. If the base creature can use weapons, the vampire retains this ability.

Special Attacks:
A vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below.

Blood Drain (Ex):
A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Charm (Su):
A vampire can set a person's mind at ease just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + Charisma mod) or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a charm person spell (caster level equal to the vampire's HD, to a maximum of 12th at 12th level). The ability has a range of 30 feet. The vampire may only use this ability once per day per character level, to a maximum of 3 times per day at 3rd level and beyond.

Curse of the Vampire:
If the vampire drains a victim’s Constitution score to 0 or lower by using his Blood Drain ability, the victim returns as a vampire in 1d4 days, as long as it had 5 or more HD. The victim is a free-willed undead and his sire has no special influence or control over him.

Special Qualities:
A vampire gains retains all special qualities he had in life, but gains no new qualities.

Abilities:
As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.


Challenge Rating:
Same as the base creature, but +1 for every 2 [Vampire] feats the vampire has taken.

Alignment:
Always evil (any)

Level Adjustment:

Same as the base creature +0

Vampire Weaknesses

For all their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses.

Repelling a Vampire:
Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.

They are utterly unable to enter a home or other private residence unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. A private residence is defined as a place that is owned by a specific person or person, legally. If no deed to the property exists, the space is treated as public to the vampire. A space whose total area exceeds 3000 square feet is never considered to be a private residence, even if a deed for such a space exists. However, inside one of these large spaces where a deed does exist, the vampire is unable to enter a private bedroom or other area whose primary purpose is for resting and whose ownership belongs clearly to an individual or a specific group of individuals who share the space equally (unless he has permission from the individual or from one or more of the group of individuals who own the space). Vampires may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

A vampire is intensely weakened in direct sunlight. The vampire is unable to use any supernatural abilities he receives from this template or from any (Vampire) feats while he is exposed to direct sunlight, nor is he able to cast spells, spell-like abilities, manifest psionic powers or psi-like abilities, or use command word/trigger magic items while he is exposed to direct sunlight, no matter their source. The vampire's gaseous form is the sole exception to this weakness (but not his noxious form).

Additionally, while a vampire is exposed to direct sunlight, he takes a -4 penalty to all attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, opposed checks, and saving throws, and is treated as if his HD was 10 less than it actually is for the purposes of being turned or destroyed (but not rebuked or commanded) (minimum of 1 HD).

The vampire is treated as an undead who has a weakness to sunlight for the purpose of certain spells, such as sunburst.

Slaying a Vampire:
Immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 05:16 AM
Stamina of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Even in undeath, you retain some of the toughness you held in life
Prerequisites: Vampire, Must have had at least 13 Con before you died
Benefit: You receive a +4 racial bonus on all Fortitude (Object) saves. Additionally, you may use your Charisma score to qualify for feats that have a minimum Constitution score, as well as for the save DC of any special attacks that have a save DC based on your Constitution score.


Gaseous Form of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character Level 5, Cha 13
Benefit: You gain the gaseous form supernatural quality of the SRD vampire. This feat only lets you assume your gaseous form, it does not grant you the semi-immortality that the vampire's Fast Healing ability grants.


Mist Form of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Gaseous Form of the Undead Lord, Character Level 12, Cha 16
Benefit: Your gaseous form supernatural ability improves, to let you assume a toxic cloud, as the noxious form (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226125) spell (Caster Level 12, Fort Neg DC 16+your Charisma score).

Your flight speed in this form is 20 feet, but you cannot stay in this form indefinitely. The duration of this ability is normal for the spell (24 minutes).

You may still use the gaseous form ability, and may remain in it indefinitely. This feat changes your gaseous form's caster level to 12.


Tenacity of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
As the frightened people surround you with pitchforks and torches, they scrape at your skin desperately and recoil in fear as your wounds heal instantly. The experienced hunter steps forward, shouting "Do not waste your energy! This foul beast may only be slain by a silver weapon!"
Prerequisites: Vampire, At least one other [Vampire] feat, Character Level 9
Benefit: You gain damage reduction 10/silver and magic. Your natural weapons are all treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. This is a supernatural quality.


Regeneration of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Gaseous Form of the Undead Lord, Tenacity of the Undead Lord
Benefit: You gain the fast healing ability of the SRD vampire (the entire ability, not just the fast healing 5). This is an extraordinary quality.


Sweet Whispers of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character Level 5th, Cha 15
Benefit: You may now use your Charm supernatural ability at-will.


Might of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Sweet Whispers of the Undead Lord
Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus to your Strength and Charisma scores.


Gaze of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
As you corner the woman in the alley, she presses her back against the wall in fear, opening her mouth to scream in panic, but then, as she looks into your eyes, her voice leaves her. She steps forward, hesitantly, and offers you her delicious neck.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Sweet Whispers of the Undead Lord, Might of the Undead Lord, Character Level 12, Charisma 15
Benefit: Your Charm supernatural ability improves. When you make your gaze attack, your target must now succeed on a Will save, DC 10+1/2 your character level+your Charisma modifier or be dominated, as if you had cast the spell dominate person (caster level 12). At your option, you may still use your Charm ability instead.


Fangs of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
The paladin foolishly raises his holy symbol in a desperate attempt to repel you, but you knock it away, then open your jaws and lunge forward, eager to take a bite out of the paladin's juicy neck. He quickly covers his neck with his hands. You're just fine with that however, and you sink your teeth into his fingers instead.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Str 13
Benefit: You gain a natural bite attack. This attack deals 1d6 points of damage if you are Medium, and is treated as a primary natural attack. If this is your only natural weapon, you deal 1 1/2 times your Strength modifier with it when you attack with it alone, otherwise you deal your full Strength modifier on primary attacks with it. When you use your Blood Drain extraordinary special attack, you may also deal your bite damage, in addition to the Constitution damage of the ability. (This is treated as having made a bite attack for all intents and purposes, such as the Decay of the Undead Lord feat)


Decay of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
With just a touch, your prey staggers in surprise, and its attacks against you seem much more half-hearted, while you positively glow with energy.
Prerequisite: Vampire, Fangs of the Undead Lord, Character Level 9
Benefit: You gain the Energy Drain supernatural special attack. Whenever you strike a creature with one of your natural weapons, that creature gains 2 negative levels. You receive 5 temporary hit points for each negative level bestowed this way. These temporary hit points fade in 1 hour. In 24 hours, the creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 your character level + your Charisma modifier) to remove the negative levels. If they fail this save, those negative levels turn into real level loss. You may only use your energy drain attack once per round.


Acrobatics of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character Level 3rd, Climb 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the ability to scale any vertical surface, as if you were affected by the spider climb spell. This is an extraordinary ability.


Talents of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character Level 6th, Wis 15
Benefit: Your natural gifts as a vampire develop, granting you increased skill with them. You gain a +8 racial bonus to all Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.


Strength of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Improved Grapple, Fangs of the Undead Lord
Benefit: Your Blood Drain special attack grows more powerful. You now drain 1d4+2 points of Constitution damage with each successful grapple check. As a constant secondary benefit, you receive a +4 racial bonus on all grapple checks.


Commanding Presence of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Cha 15, Character Level 3rd
Benefit: Your mere presence unnerves other lost souls, and cause them to hesitate and defy their masters. No mindless undead will attack you unless it is somehow mentally commanded or enraged, such as by a cleric who has commanded it or by the command undead spell. Additionally, all mindless undead who come within 60 feet of you must make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 your character level+your Charisma modifier) or be shaken for one minute. This is a supernatural ability, and affects undead specifically, even though they are immune to fear.

Intelligent undead are able to attack you as they like, however, if their HD is lower than yours, they must still make the Will save or be shaken. If the creature in question is a vampire with lower HD than yours, he takes a -4 penalty on his Will save, out of respect for the one thing he truly fears.


Transformation of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Fangs of the Undead Lord, Character Level 9th
Benefit: You gain the Alternate Form supernatural ability of the SRD vampire. You may change forms into a bat, a dire bat, a wolf, or a dire wolf. You lose your natural bite attack and your Charm/Dominate ability, but you gain the natural attacks and extraordinary special attacks of your chosen form. If you have the Decay of the Undead Lord feat, it applies to any natural weapons you have in your altered form.


Servants of the Undead Lord (Vampire)
Prerequisites: Vampire, Fangs of the Undead Lord, Sweet Whispers of the Undead Lord, Transformation of the Undead Lord, Character Level 12th
Benefit: You gain the Children of the Night supernatural ability of the SRD vampire.

Morph Bark
2011-12-18, 06:54 AM
While the original vampire template should by no means be LA+8, considering all these bonuses here, there is no way this is LA+0. This is one of the few things I consider Frank and K to have done well-balancedly with their Tome Vampire (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire,_Tome_(3.5e_Template)), as it remains vulnerable to mind-affecting effects and keeps its Constitution score while also becoming vulnerable to Turn attempts.

As is, I'd rate this template at LA+2 or maybe +3. Making them affectable to some things undead are immune to or taking away their spider climbing and/or lowering Cold/Elec Resist to 5 would make it more solid in LA+2.

I do really like the feats you added, aside from Regeneration of the Undead Lord, as it grants a lot in just one go without additional prerequisites that fit, like the last one.

gkathellar
2011-12-18, 08:49 AM
Take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58213) if you haven't seen it already. It may give you some ideas.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-18, 11:29 AM
I think I'm going to climb on the "too strong" boat as well. A few suggestions?

Ditch the slam attack, which never really made in terms of popular vampire legends.
Take of the resistances-- again, I can't see a single lore-friendly reason they're there.
Remove all the special abilities (charm, spider climb, gaseous form, and so on), and add them back in as (Vampire) feats. That way the template isn't too strong, vampires don't get flooded with abilities, and players can customize their undead experience.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 01:01 PM
I think I'm going to climb on the "too strong" boat as well. A few suggestions?

Ditch the slam attack, which never really made in terms of popular vampire legends.
Take of the resistances-- again, I can't see a single lore-friendly reason they're there.
Remove all the special abilities (charm, spider climb, gaseous form, and so on), and add them back in as (Vampire) feats. That way the template isn't too strong, vampires don't get flooded with abilities, and players can customize their undead experience.


If I take all the special abilities away, then it's not a template. It's just granting them access to spend feats on special abilities.

Cieyrin
2011-12-18, 01:10 PM
I think I'm going to climb on the "too strong" boat as well. A few suggestions?

Ditch the slam attack, which never really made in terms of popular vampire legends.
Take of the resistances-- again, I can't see a single lore-friendly reason they're there.
Remove all the special abilities (charm, spider climb, gaseous form, and so on), and add them back in as (Vampire) feats. That way the template isn't too strong, vampires don't get flooded with abilities, and players can customize their undead experience.


Make 'em like Ghostwalk ghosts, that worked fairly well in my experience. :smallwink:

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 01:14 PM
There. I removed the resistances, spider climb, limited the Charm to once per day/lv, took out the gaseous form. Now he gets Blood Drain, Charm 1/day, +2 Str/+2 Cha, and a few skill bonuses, along with the undead type, all its strengths and weaknesses, and all vampire weaknesses.

It's slightly stronger than the Necropolitan template, but only slightly, and I think the weaknesses and the forced alignment change balance it out.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-18, 01:16 PM
If I take all the special abilities away, then it's not a template. It's just granting them access to spend feats on special abilities.

The thing about a LA+0 template is that it's pretty much impossible to balance. You already have a race that is, theoretically, balanced against other races. A LA+0 template is literally giving you something for nothing, which makes it quite hard to balance. The vampire has some pretty big weaknesses, but you're still getting 3 SLAs (all of useful spells, at that), bonuses to ability scores and useful skills, d12 HD, a reasonably effective natural attack, bloodsucking, and the undead type.

Without the abilities, you're still getting the weaknesses and bloodsucking-- the most important parts of being a vampire-- as well as all the immunities from being undead and the ability and skill bonuses. You're unquestionably a vampire. After that, you can either develop your vampire-ness through feats, representing your character growing in power as he drinks more blood and embraces his vamperic side.

On a side note, you forgot to include a DC for his Charm ability

EDIT: swordsage'd!

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 01:23 PM
The thing about a LA+0 template is that it's pretty much impossible to balance. You already have a race that is, theoretically, balanced against other races. A LA+0 template is literally giving you something for nothing, which makes it quite hard to balance. The vampire has some pretty big weaknesses, but you're still getting 3 SLAs (all of useful spells, at that), bonuses to ability scores and useful skills, d12 HD, a reasonably effective natural attack, bloodsucking, and the undead type.

Without the abilities, you're still getting the weaknesses and bloodsucking-- the most important parts of being a vampire-- as well as all the immunities from being undead and the ability and skill bonuses. You're unquestionably a vampire. After that, you can either develop your vampire-ness through feats, representing your character growing in power as he drinks more blood and embraces his vamperic side.

On a side note, you forgot to include a DC for his Charm ability

EDIT: swordsage'd!

The DC for the Charm ability is listed under the "Special Attack" header, though now that it's his only Special Attack with a save, I guess I'll move it to the Charm section for ease of reading.

How's it look now?

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-18, 01:27 PM
How's it look now?

No longer CR+1, but other than that, pretty good. I'd be happy to let a player use it in an (alignment-appropriate) game.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 01:32 PM
No longer CR+1, but other than that, pretty good. I'd be happy to let a player use it in an (alignment-appropriate) game.

You don't think that the charm person supernatural attack and the undead immunities are enough to push it to CR +1? I suppose I'll drop it to CR +0, but add a note saying that for every 2 [Vampire] feats it has, it should get a +1 CR, seeing as those racial feats are much stronger than most.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-18, 01:33 PM
You don't think that the charm person supernatural attack and the undead immunities are enough to push it to CR +1? I suppose I'll drop it to CR +0, but add a note saying that for every 2 [Vampire] feats it has, it should get a +1 CR, seeing as those racial feats are much stronger than most.

Seems fair.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 01:50 PM
Added a few more racial feats.

Elfstone
2011-12-18, 05:16 PM
How does "Regeneration of the Vampire Lord" grant Damage reduction.....

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 05:19 PM
How does "Regeneration of the Undead Lord" grant Damage reduction.....

Fixed that for you.

Supernatural damage reduction is described in the Dungeon Master's Guide as taking the full damage of an attack and then instantly healing a part of it. (At least, that's how you describe it to your players/what it looks like to the characters)

Dralnu
2011-12-18, 05:46 PM
+2 STR/CHA, additional +2's to certain skills, undead type and all the perks that come with it, and the powerful charm person. Drawbacks mostly dependant on the DM and can range from crippling to negligible.

I'd say this is a solid +1 template, not +0.

Cieyrin
2011-12-18, 05:51 PM
Fixed that for you.

Supernatural damage reduction is described in the Dungeon Master's Guide as taking the full damage of an attack and then instantly healing a part of it. (At least, that's how you describe it to your players/what it looks like to the characters)

Yes but it is still somewhat misleading when you go in thinking of Fast Healing and get DR. Fluffwise, they do similar things. Crunchwise, they are quite different. It wouldn't hurt to have a known game term used to describe something in the game not used for it. Call it Endurance of... or Tenacity of... or some similar synonym and you curb confusion before it happens.

Speaking of Endurance, Stamina of the Undead Lord seems kinda weak. Some bonus HP or something similar wouldn't hurt to make it more worthwhile.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 06:37 PM
+2 STR/CHA, additional +2's to certain skills, undead type and all the perks that come with it, and the powerful charm person. Drawbacks mostly dependant on the DM and can range from crippling to negligible.

I'd say this is a solid +1 template, not +0.

You forget about the forced alignment change, the lack of a Constitution score, the vulnerability to turning and rebuking, immunity to morale effects, and the inability to adventure during the entire first half of the day, unless you are in a forest or a cave. (that's not "mostly dependent". The sun is the sun)

Edit: Added a small boost to Stamina of the Undead Lord and changed the name of RotUL to Tenacity of the Undead Lord.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-20, 03:31 AM
Added a couple of new racial feats.

Cieyrin
2011-12-20, 11:39 AM
Commanding Presence: How exactly does a mindless undead become enraged? They're mindless, they don't feel much of anything for anybody or anyone, let alone be angry at them.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-20, 02:53 PM
Commanding Presence: How exactly does a mindless undead become enraged? They're mindless, they don't feel much of anything for anybody or anyone, let alone be angry at them.

I don't know, but I wanted to make sure there was that option, just in case there's some obscure spell or ability I don't know about.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-15, 12:50 AM
Added Regeneration of the Undead Lord, Transformation of the Undead Lord, and Servants of the Undead Lord, and I'm done! Man, now I really want to play a vampire in a game! Maybe a vampiric longtooth shifter fluffed as a werewolf...

Cieyrin
2012-01-15, 11:31 AM
Man, now I really want to play a vampire in a game! Maybe a vampiric longtooth shifter fluffed as a werewolf...

Sounds rather feat intensive, between enhancing the shifter and vampire sides.

Speaking of Shifters, is there gonna be more work on the Shifter's Handbook?

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-15, 11:41 AM
Sounds rather feat intensive, between enhancing the shifter and vampire sides.

Speaking of Shifters, is there gonna be more work on the Shifter's Handbook?

That's what the generic warrior class in UA is for. :smallbiggrin: Geez, is there nothing 11 unrestricted bonus feats can't solve?

As for the Shifter's Handbook, unfortunately not. At least, not now. Between my new job and the Seraphi Homebrew Request Thread I've got too much on my plate at the moment.

Trodon
2012-02-24, 10:38 AM
This. Is. Amazing. I can't wait to use this! :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Your homebrew is the best that I've ever seen.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-24, 10:40 AM
This. Is. Amazing. I can't wait to use this! :smallbiggrin:

I'm glad you like it! Let me know how it goes.

Also, that's an impressive avatar. You did that yourself? Very nice.

Trodon
2012-02-24, 10:42 AM
I will, if I can find someone to let me use it...

Thanks, It's a Celtic knot, I just put it in paint and re-colored it.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-07, 09:43 PM
Haha! Great success! I have found a DM who is willing to let me play this template in a Level 1 game. Going to be interesting to see how it works...

Andion Isurand
2012-03-08, 01:39 AM
How about changing these vampire feats to have scaling bonuses which increase according to the number of Vampire feats you've taken, sort of like how the Draconic, Abyssal Heritor and Devil-Touched feats work?

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-08, 01:40 AM
How about changing these vampire feats to have scaling bonuses which increase according to the number of Vampire feats you've taken, sort of like how the Draconic, Abyssal Heritor and Devil-Touched feats work.

That would require the feats to grant numerical bonuses, and only Talents of the Undead Lord does (and those types of feats are boring and terrible).

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-08, 01:54 AM
Just chiming in a little late, but I was always under the impression that when a humanoid creature gained/had a slam attack it was supposed to represent superhuman strength in the blow.

Like a regular person punching or kicking just knocks a guy out, maybe killing them, but a Vampire or Zombie can do the same thing and put their limb through a wall.

ericgrau
2012-03-09, 09:04 PM
The special abilities aren't that strong, For example 1d4 con only on a pin is hard to pull off and only does minor ability damage. What are strong are the ability scores, d12 HD on casters and undead immunities. Staying away from and/or being turned by every foe with a holy symbol and ranks in knowledge(religion) is a significant drawback which could make up for 1 of these. Somehow giving casters less HP or another drawback could help but those undead immunities remain a major pain for trying to keep it LA 0.

Since being undead alone is worth something you have to figure out a way to deal with that or even after the drawbacks you won't have any room left for the vampire plusses at LA 0.

Alternatively just make it LA 1. It's a pretty nice LA 1 template and that'll discourage casters from taking it only for the d12 HD. Even then it's a strong LA 1 from the undead "immune to nearly every status effect and more" issues.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-09, 09:30 PM
The special abilities aren't that strong, For example 1d4 con only on a pin is hard to pull off and only does minor ability damage. What are strong are the ability scores, d12 HD on casters and undead immunities. Staying away from and/or being turned by every foe with a holy symbol and ranks in knowledge(religion) is a significant drawback which could make up for 1 of these. Somehow giving casters less HP or another drawback could help but those undead immunities remain a major pain for trying to keep it LA 0.

You can't cross running water, you are already repelled by holy symbols, you can only stay in direct sunlight for a single round (and unlike the true SRD vampire, you have no means to turn gaseous and escape unless you have at least 5 HD and spend a feat). You are also repelled by mirrors, and you cannot enter a private house without an invitation by someone who has the authority to invite you in. So...these are all serious drawbacks.



Since being undead alone is worth something you have to figure out a way to deal with that or even after the drawbacks you won't have any room left for the vampire plusses at LA 0.

Being undead grants you plenty of weaknesses. You become vulnerable to turn/destroy and rebuke/command, as well as disrupt undead, hide from undead, command undead, searing light, sunburst, sunbeam, etc. You have a lot of weaknesses that the DM can easily toss at you if you're being broken.



Alternatively just make it LA 1. It's a pretty nice LA 1 template and that'll discourage casters from taking it only for the d12 HD. Even then it's a strong LA 1 from the undead "immune to nearly every status effect and more" issues.

Not interested in LA 1 templates. Undead immunities are already balanced by the sheer number of weaknesses you gain. Complete and utter destruction by spending 12 seconds in sunlight is a serious drawback.

ericgrau
2012-03-09, 09:50 PM
Polarizing abilities like utter destruction or nothing aren't very practical. Either the game is over instantly or the DM and party have to go easy on you, taking care to never ever enter sunlight. More likely it never comes up at all, and if it does it ruins the character entirely.

The most common weakness faced are enemy clerics, and even that's not incredibly common. Nobody will even think to spend a copper piece on garlic unless it's a vampire heavy setting. If you make a setting that revolves around vampires and has a lot of them making them common knowledge you could drop it to LA 0.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-09, 09:54 PM
Polarizing abilities like utter destruction or nothing aren't very practical. Either the game is over instantly or the DM and party have to go easy on you, taking care to never ever enter sunlight. More likely it never comes up at all, and if it does it ruins the character entirely.

True, but that's just how vampirism is. If you walk out in the light of day, you die. So you are limited to only adventuring at nights. If you want to (and think you are able) to put up with that at 1st level, go ahead. More than likely, however, this template won't be used until later, when a character has access to teleportation magic. At that point, undead immunities aren't that game-breaking, so it's no big deal.

ericgrau
2012-03-09, 10:14 PM
Nah you don't need teleport. Just don't travel by day. Again unless it's a vampire heavy setting where it's common knowledge no one will even think to search for a tucked away vampire when ambushing the party. Like any template an LA would hurt at level 1, but even at ECL 5 where a lot of campaign starts 1 LA isn't such a big deal.

Now for the feats:
Stamina of the Undead Lord: Cool build material.
Mist Form of the Undead: Again, cool character option for a build
Tenacity of the Undead Lord: Again, setting dependent. If fighting monsters who can't even say the word "silver", this is effectively DR 10/- which is a bit too strong even at mid levels. If every major foe has a magic silver weapon at his side because of the vampire ridden world, not so much.
Gaseous Form of the Undead Lord, Regeneration of the Undead Lord: You should clarify how the gaseous form works with and without this. Initially I thought the gaseous form was OP until I saw this part was its own feat.
Sweet Whispers of the Undead Lord: (Su)s can't be detected except by their effect. This is a LOT of fun with at-will charm person.
Gaze otUL: I'm not sure but at-will dominate person might be a bit much at this level. Full casters get it as limited use at level 9. A higher level would probably be fine.
Fangs otUL, Decat otUL: Fine, fine, but Fangs needs some optimization like DotUL or outside material to be worthwhile.
Acrobatics otUL: Really cool and a load of fun to use at low levels, but a bit weak later on when adventurers fly. Dunno how to deal with that though except maybe make it scale.
Talents otUL: Ah more fun options for the direction someone might take.
Strength otUL: Ditto
Commanding Presence otUL: Ditto. Lot of different directions and branching chains for players to take to suit their tastes.
Transformation otUL: Ditto.
Servants otUL: Ditto


That's a lot of good feats. The only gripe I have left is that player feats are limited. Any chain of 3 eats 9 levels of feats. I'd make some of them into fighter bonus feats as well and maybe allow others as bonus feats in other classes too. For example maybe the spell ones for wizard bonus feats (or maybe not).

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-09, 10:31 PM
Tenacity of the Undead Lord: Again, setting dependent. If fighting monsters who can't even say the word "silver", this is effectively DR 10/- which is a bit too strong even at mid levels. If every major foe has a magic silver weapon at his side because of the vampire ridden world, not so much.

I don't think so. You have to spend 2 feats on it and be a vampire, which means you're undead, with all the weaknesses that come with it (such as taking 10d6 damage from a 2nd level cleric spell slot, a la deific vengeance), and in exchange you get damage reduction that is only overcome by a silver weapon. Even if your enemies don't use silver weapons, they can still just raise a holy symbol and suppress you. This ability makes you strong at monster-slaying and fighting normal commoners, but the martial adepts were getting DR 5/Adamantine at level 1 for no feats.



Gaseous Form of the Undead Lord, Regeneration of the Undead Lord: You should clarify how the gaseous form works with and without this. Initially I thought the gaseous form was OP until I saw this part was its own feat.

Why? It clearly says "As the SRD vampire". The SRD vampire entry for Gaseous Form only says "You can become gaseous at will."



Sweet Whispers of the Undead Lord: (Su)s can't be detected except by their effect. This is a LOT of fun with at-will charm person.

Spending a feat to change Character Level per day to at-will isn't that great I mean, when was the last time you saw a mid-level bard run out of bardic music?



Gaze otUL: I'm not sure but at-will dominate person might be a bit much at this level. Full casters get it as limited use at level 9. A higher level would probably be fine.

Full casters also get polymorph at level 7, and cloudkill, permanency, and overland flight at level 9. A full caster has all the versatility in the world, so it doesn't matter that they can only do it a few times per day while the vampire gets it at-will because he spent two feats on it. As you pointed out before, feats are very limited, and most classes are actually quite feat-starved. So having your race compete with your class for feats? Those feats had better be pretty damned good.



Fangs otUL, Decat otUL: Fine, fine, but Fangs needs some optimization like DotUL or outside material to be worthwhile.


Yep. But you can take Fangs at level 1, so it's not supposed to be that great.



Acrobatics otUL: Really cool and a load of fun to use at low levels, but a bit weak later on when adventurers fly. Dunno how to deal with that though except maybe make it scale.

Vampires can't fly. So it wouldn't make sense to make it scale.



Talents otUL: Ah more fun options for the direction someone might take.
Strength otUL: Ditto
Commanding Presence otUL: Ditto. Lot of different directions and branching chains for players to take to suit their tastes.
Transformation otUL: Ditto.
Servants otUL: Ditto
[/list]

Great, thanks.



That's a lot of good feats. The only gripe I have left is that player feats are limited. Any chain of 3 eats 9 levels of feats. I'd make some of them into fighter bonus feats as well and maybe allow others as bonus feats in other classes too.

None of these feats fit the flavor of any class. And very few racial feats are listed as fighter feats (The only one I can think of is Titan Fighting, but Improved Weapon Familiarity might be one as well).

Making the feats easier to get lessens their expenditure of the character's resources, which was my primary reasoning for balancing them. If I made them more accessible, that would call into question whether they were too powerful.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-09, 10:33 PM
Cleared up the wording on Gaseous Form of the Undead Lord.

Cieyrin
2012-03-09, 11:09 PM
The usual solution to not enough feat slots to flesh out your race is a PrC to pick up extra racial feats, like Weretouched Master is to Shifters.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-09, 11:21 PM
The usual solution to not enough feat slots to flesh out your race is a PrC to pick up extra racial feats, like Weretouched Master is to Shifters.

A racial prestige class...hmm...that bodes some possibilities. Seems a little weird for a template, but then again, so are these racial feats. Alright, that sounds like a plan. Nice suggestion, Cieyrin. I'll have to come back to this later.

Benly
2012-03-09, 11:35 PM
I hope you weren't planning to go on any adventures in dungeons! At least, not unless you can track down the rightful owner.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-09, 11:37 PM
I hope you weren't planning to go on any adventures in dungeons! At least, not unless you can track down the rightful owner.

An interesting point. Clearly not the intent of WotC though, since I copied and pasted that weakness directly from the SRD.

Benly
2012-03-09, 11:48 PM
An interesting point. Clearly not the intent of WotC though, since I copied and pasted that weakness directly from the SRD.

I would suspect that despite them having an LA for it, the SRD vampire was never intended to be usable and functional for PCs.

You should probably amend it somehow, since being unable to enter any structure in which an intelligent being has taken up residence without its express permission makes it functionally impossible to participate in the majority of adventures not designed specifically for such a character. Not even in a way that encourages workarounds like the daylight weakness (where at worst you can cast Darkness, bury yourself and wait it out, or whatnot) but in a way where your character will be spending the entire module sitting outside the Crypt Of The Devil-Lich because it is completely impossible for you to enter the area where the adventure takes place.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-10, 12:03 AM
I would suspect that despite them having an LA for it, the SRD vampire was never intended to be usable and functional for PCs.

You should probably amend it somehow, since being unable to enter any structure in which an intelligent being has taken up residence without its express permission makes it functionally impossible to participate in the majority of adventures not designed specifically for such a character. Not even in a way that encourages workarounds like the daylight weakness (where at worst you can cast Darkness, bury yourself and wait it out, or whatnot) but in a way where your character will be spending the entire module sitting outside the Crypt Of The Devil-Lich because it is completely impossible for you to enter the area where the adventure takes place.

But how can I amend it while sticking to lore? Vampires really can't enter a private residence without permission.

Benly
2012-03-10, 12:07 AM
But how can I amend it while sticking to lore? Vampires really can't enter a private residence without permission.

Possibly by coming up with a formal definition of what constitutes a private residence that keeps the "vampire at the door of the house" lore without preventing you from ever going on a dungeon crawl.

I guess as an alternate option you could rename the thread "LA 0 Playable-As-Long-As-You-Never-Plan-To-Go-Adventuring-In-An-Enclosed-Space Vampires". :smallsmile:

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-10, 12:29 AM
Okay..how does that look?

Benly
2012-03-10, 12:41 AM
It seems like an okay setup. It opens up some weird areas with ownership, but I think that's kind of inevitable. I do feel like in larger structures there should be the possibility of private quarters being considered a residence, so that for example a vampire could enter the grand castle freely but still need permission to enter the royal chambers.

In theory it could lead to a "can't enter the boss room" problem with dungeons, but the legal-ownership issue mostly handles that (I don't think Devil Liches file paperwork.)

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-10, 12:47 AM
Alright, then I'll change that around to fit the private rooms part.

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-10, 07:08 AM
If you're really interested in sticking to the lore, you wouldn't have Sunlight being fatal, just saying. That was a Cinema invention starting with Nosferatu.

You could just go the Dracula route and have the vampire unable to really use any superhuman abilities while the sun up and have them all around weakened during the day but still allow them to move around.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-10, 11:41 AM
If you're really interested in sticking to the lore, you wouldn't have Sunlight being fatal, just saying. That was a Cinema invention starting with Nosferatu.

You could just go the Dracula route and have the vampire unable to really use any superhuman abilities while the sun up and have them all around weakened during the day but still allow them to move around.

I guess that would make it more playable. Okay then.

Edit: Changed my template to have the vampire instead severely weakened while in direct sunlight.

JackMage666
2012-03-10, 04:54 PM
I have to agree that this is not a +0 LA template. While, yes, the vampire does have some weaknesses, it also has some considerable strengths. Also, most people are of the opinion that the Undead immunities outweigh the weaknesses that come along with it. Sure, they have to be a little more afraid of an enemy cleric, but the cleric is a full caster, so it's a threat for undead and non-undead alike (not to mention turning just makes the target run for 10 rounds, not exactly a death sentence.)

So, Pros:
d12 HD (a boon for casters, but not so much for fighters with a decent Con score)
Constitution is now a total dump stat during creation (28 Point Buy doesn't look so bad.)
Undead Immunities (Mind-effecting abilities, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain, ability damage to Str/Dex, fatigue, exhaustion, massive damage, starvation, thirst, sleep deprevation, and pretty much anything that requires a Fortitude save)
Darkvision 60 ft (useful or not, depending on base race and game.)
1d4 Constitution Damage at will with pin (Consider this like a poison attack, only instead of a save it's opposing grapple checks, which are much easier to optimize than a poison save DC, and instead of 1 round then wait 10 rounds, you wait 1 round and deal damage every successful round thereafter, plus nab yourself some HP)
Charm Person (1/day per level could be 3/day, made at-will with the feat, just to simplify things.)
Curse of the Vampire (turn all your friends into vampires too!)
+2 to 7 regularly used skills (Comparative to most LA +0 race's +2 to two or three skills)
+2 Str, +2 Cha (Str is nice, but the Cha makes you a more potent sorcerer right off the bat, mental scores arn't raised commonly for a LA +0 race.)
Feats (Many of these feats are quite strong in comparison to other feats, and most Vampire PCs would choose them gladly. I realize you're trying to bridge the gap between the SRD Vamp and this one, but constant effect Spider Climb and at-will Gaseous Form at such a low level is very useful.)
All the benefits of whatever race you were beforehand, save the frail Humanoid type.

Cons:
Undead Weaknesses (Spells that specifically target undead, weapons that specifically target undead, Turn/Rebuke, destruction if reduced to 0 HP, social stigma)
Vampire Weaknesses (No running water, garlic, you added the mythos of being unable to enter a house, sunlight, but you Twilighted this vampire out and removed the direct lethality of sunlight.)

And of course, the uncontrollable factor will always be the DM: In short, if the DM wants you to live, he won't exploit your weaknesses without you having a way of surviving. And if the DM wants your character dead, your character will be dead. I don't need to mention Vampire in this section, because it's true for any class, race, template, ect. Your weaknesses arn't nearly as apparant, because you're a PC, not an enemy the PCs encounter. This is in your favor because most of the weaknesses are fluffy, specific scenarios that you can get around, or won't even come up if the DM doesn't want to bog down the game with them.

+0 LA Undead templates are nearly unheard of, so the closest thing to an official example of one would be the Necropolitan in Libris Mortis, and while technically +0 LA, you still have to lose a level to actually become one. Plus, the only benefits besides the Undead thing are a measly +2 bonus to resist Turn/Rebuke, and the natural healing (not magical) of a living creature.

This is still a +2 LA template.

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-10, 05:50 PM
Vampire Weaknesses (No running water, garlic, you added the mythos of being unable to enter a house, sunlight, but you Twilighted this vampire out and removed the direct lethality of sunlight.)


Please go educate yourself on actual Vampires. I'm trying not to let my utter disgust at you saying that color my post more than necessary.

Edit:

@NeoSeraphi: Why don't you change this to be a 3.P homebrew piece? I know you've done some Pathfinder and 3.P stuff before and the power scale (especially for LA 0 stuff) is higher and will give you more swinging room.

JackMage666
2012-03-10, 06:15 PM
Please go educate yourself on actual Vampires. I'm trying not to let my utter disgust at you saying that color my post more than necessary.


Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.

We don't need to research "actual" Vampires, we're playing D&D. The sunlight weakness of the template is considerably less severe than being destroyed after 6 seconds. It's much more fitting to PC use, yes, but it is a boon in comparison to the SRD vampire.

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-10, 06:19 PM
We don't need to research "actual" Vampires, we're playing D&D. The sunlight weakness of the template is considerably less severe than being destroyed after 6 seconds. It's much more fitting to PC use, yes, but it is a boon in comparison to the SRD vampire.

You said the single most offensive thing you could have said in regards to anything concerning vampires.

Do not try and assuage that by just copy/pasting the SRD please. Especially when what you copy/pasted was something that was a glaring flaw in the template along with the +8 LA adjustment.

And as NeoSeraphi said, he wanted to be close to the lore.

Owrtho
2012-03-10, 06:22 PM
Please go educate yourself on actual Vampires. I'm trying not to let my utter disgust at you saying that color my post more than necessary.

While I agree in general on the sunlight issue, the point on sunlight and the effect it has on vampires is rather dependant on the type of vampire being discussed. Given that the vampire seen in Bram Stoker's Dracula does not exist in any folklore, and is actually an amalgamation of a few distinct creatures it is a bit tricky to decide what the actual traits are of a traditional vampire. With that a variety of similar creatures from folklore around the globe are classified as vampires, though the only thing all such creatures seem to have in common is that they feed on humans, usually by draining blood or some other essence. With that there are a few vampires I can think of that had two forms (one looking like a normal human and lacking powers, the other being their true 'vampiric' form), which would die in sunlight if caught by it in their vampiric form. Most of these also had something they left behind such as a body part when they entered it, meaning a way to kill one was to prevent it from rejoining before the sun rose (see the penanggalan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penanggalan) for an example).


Also, the HD being D12 should be made to only change racial HD, rather than those gained by classes, like most templates that change HD.

Owrtho

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-10, 06:28 PM
While I agree in general on the sunlight issue, the point on sunlight and the effect it has on vampires is rather dependant on the type of vampire being discussed. Given that the vampire seen in Bram Stoker's Dracula does not exist in any folklore, and is actually an amalgamation of a few distinct creatures it is a bit tricky to decide what the actual traits are of a traditional vampire. With that a variety of similar creatures from folklore around the globe are classified as vampires, though the only thing all such creatures seem to have in common is that they feed on humans, usually by draining blood or some other essence. With that there are a few vampires I can think of that had two forms (one looking like a normal human and lacking powers, the other being their true 'vampiric' form), which would die in sunlight if caught by it in their vampiric form. Most of these also had something they left behind such as a body part when they entered it, meaning a way to kill one was to prevent it from rejoining before the sun rose (see the penanggalan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penanggalan) for an example).

Owrtho

Oh, I'm fully aware. The issue is that only a select few vampires were killed by exposure to sunlight and those creatures weren't even classified as being under the same umbrella classification of vampire until the recent turn of the century, which you've already somewhat said as them loosely being held together by their shared trait of feeding on the living either by blood or essence or other substance.

The point still stands that vampires as a mythology became glued together by works like Dracula and Varney and they were drawn heavily off the European vampire mythos and as memory recollects not many of them were vulnerable to sunlight.

And even the vulnerable ones never went up like a phosphorus grenade like the common concept of vampires do since Nosferatu made the weakness commonplace in popular culture.

JackMage666
2012-03-10, 06:37 PM
Also, the HD being D12 should be made to only change racial HD, rather than those gained by classes, like most templates that change HD.

Undead seem to be a quirk in this sense, unlike most templates, it effects all HD, class or racial. The Vampire in the Monster Manual is a Monk/Shadowdancer with all d12 HD, same with the example Lich. This is pretty much cause Undead HP is rather lame if you don't have access to Unholy Toughness or the like, plus a 20th level Lich Wizard is hardly as intimidating with a max of 80 HP.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-10, 11:56 PM
So, Pros:
d12 HD (a boon for casters, but not so much for fighters with a decent Con score)

An average of 6.5 hit points per level, versus an average of 4.5 per level if you have a 14 Con (and casters are so SAD that they can afford to pump their Con much higher than 14)? And that's talking about arcane casters. Meanwhile, druids and clerics have d8s, so that's an average of, wait for it, 6.5 per level if you have 14 Con (and the druid definitely has more than 14 Con). So, the math just doesn't support your argument here.



Constitution is now a total dump stat during creation (28 Point Buy doesn't look so bad.)

This is assuming you're going to begin the game with the vampire template. It could just as easily come back to bite you (pun intended), if you are forcibly changed to this template via a vampire in the game, and you lose a score you invested heavily in.

Not to mention your Fortitude save is going to be terrible.



Undead Immunities (Mind-effecting abilities, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain, ability damage to Str/Dex, fatigue, exhaustion, massive damage, starvation, thirst, sleep deprevation, and pretty much anything that requires a Fortitude save)


Yes. You also have to deal with being turned, being rebuked, and taking massive penalties while in sunlight. So you're immune to the effects of shaken and sicken, but if you're out in the daylight, you have them both tacked on to you immediately, with no saving throw. And you may be immune to charm and dominate, but you can always be rebuked or commanded (again, no saving throw here).



Darkvision 60 ft (useful or not, depending on base race and game.)


I concede this point.



1d4 Constitution Damage at will with pin (Consider this like a poison attack, only instead of a save it's opposing grapple checks, which are much easier to optimize than a poison save DC, and instead of 1 round then wait 10 rounds, you wait 1 round and deal damage every successful round thereafter, plus nab yourself some HP)


Grapple checks are not easier to optimize, considering you are no longer subject to the enlarge person spell and you can only grapple a creature up to one Size category larger than you. Not to mention, if you don't spend two feats on it, you provoke an AoO that automatically makes you fail if you take damage from it every time you try to drain blood.



Charm Person (1/day per level could be 3/day, made at-will with the feat, just to simplify things.)

Fair point. I guess I'll make it 1/day per level, capped at 3/day, just so you don't get so much use at level 1.



Curse of the Vampire (turn all your friends into vampires too!)

Yes, and have them all strangle you for taking away their Constitution scores that they actually spent points in.



+2 to 7 regularly used skills (Comparative to most LA +0 race's +2 to two or three skills)

Yes. That was helpful.



+2 Str, +2 Cha (Str is nice, but the Cha makes you a more potent sorcerer right off the bat, mental scores arn't raised commonly for a LA +0 race.)

:smalleek:

Lesser Aasimar, lesser tiefling, gray elf, fire elf, snow elf, dark elf, ghost elf, umbragen elf, tortle, spellscale. I'm probably missing a few, but those all definitely grant a bonus to a mental stat without a single point of LA.



Feats (Many of these feats are quite strong in comparison to other feats, and most Vampire PCs would choose them gladly. I realize you're trying to bridge the gap between the SRD Vamp and this one, but constant effect Spider Climb and at-will Gaseous Form at such a low level is very useful.)
All the benefits of whatever race you were beforehand, save the frail Humanoid type.


Considering that casters have to choose between these and metamagic feats, well, which would you pick? And what about a vampire fighter? Would he choose Fangs of the Undead Lord over Power Attack? (Not to mention, the intense Charisma score prerequisite for most of these feats.)



Cons:
Undead Weaknesses (Spells that specifically target undead, weapons that specifically target undead, Turn/Rebuke, destruction if reduced to 0 HP, social stigma)
Vampire Weaknesses (No running water, garlic, you added the mythos of being unable to enter a house, sunlight, but you Twilighted this vampire out and removed the direct lethality of sunlight.)

For some reason, you seem to be ignoring the forced alignment change here. This severely punishes and restricts a player, as well as making it difficult to enter into standard D&D games where the party is a group of heroes. You also can't be a paladin (unless your DM lets you take Tyranny or Slaughter), you can't take any exalted feats, you can't cast any divine spells with the [Good] descriptor, and you can't be Neutral in order to avoid getting owned by people with alignment spells such as protection from evil, holy word, holy aura, holy smite and hammer of righteousness. A 1st level paladin can detect you within 30 feet, at will. And then he can Smite you. A forced alignment restriction is not something to take lightly, in my opinion.



And of course, the uncontrollable factor will always be the DM: In short, if the DM wants you to live, he won't exploit your weaknesses without you having a way of surviving. And if the DM wants your character dead, your character will be dead. I don't need to mention Vampire in this section, because it's true for any class, race, template, ect. Your weaknesses arn't nearly as apparant, because you're a PC, not an enemy the PCs encounter. This is in your favor because most of the weaknesses are fluffy, specific scenarios that you can get around, or won't even come up if the DM doesn't want to bog down the game with them.

+0 LA Undead templates are nearly unheard of, so the closest thing to an official example of one would be the Necropolitan in Libris Mortis, and while technically +0 LA, you still have to lose a level to actually become one. Plus, the only benefits besides the Undead thing are a measly +2 bonus to resist Turn/Rebuke, and the natural healing (not magical) of a living creature.

This is still a +2 LA template.

I just disagree with you. I really don't think granting access to spend your feat slots on powerful feats, when you still only get 7 feats, along with a few ability score bonuses and the undead type warrants a Level Adjustment. Though your idea to limit the charm feature was a good one, and I shall be implementing that now.

JackMage666
2012-03-11, 01:10 AM
The Undead type *does* warrant an LA. Being weak against Clerics doesn't remove that, because Clerics are specific (sure, there are PrCs and ACFs that make this not specific, but I'm not going to scour every book for them.) Plus, Clerics can be a weakness OR a huge boon, as they have an impressive array of spells to boost up Undead. That's one of the trade offs of being Undead, you might be afraid of holy power, but that doesn't make them equal to a Human. Besides that, while Clerics may terrify you, you can laugh at Rogues, Scouts, and any other Precision-damage dealing class which are now pitifully ineffective against you, as well as the Beguiler.

The alignment shift is a menial thing (unless your turned into a vampire mid-game) because alignment itself is so fluffy. Most vampires aren't adventuring with their Paladin best friend, the character will be building the character with this template already attached. They don't lose access to anything, they already gave that up when they decided to play a vampire - The same way a Paladin gives up Vile Feats, evil items, gets beat up Unholy Word, ect. On the other hand, if it's added mid-game, it can be a problem, but most DMs wouldn't Vampirize (?) players unless they were cool with such an idea (whether that be 'SWEET I'M SPIKE!' or 'This could be a jolly good roleplay experience, curing myself of Vampirism.')

Look at it as the big 3
Wizards - No reason not to take this template. Free boosts, plus the immunities, d12 HD beats d4, plus some utility feats in a few levels (freeing up spell slots)
Clerics - Depends on the Cleric, but evil Undead Clerics are nothing to be scoffed at. Again, not much of a reason not to take this template, it even strengthens your own Rebuke checks (Which goes along very nicely with the turning all your teamates into vampires.) Obviously not good for a Good or Neutral aligned cleric, but as stated above, they gave up that path if they chose the template.
Druid - You'd have to take Undead Wildshape (provided your group still uses Wildshape,) and most Druids find Undead an abomination, but that's fluff. Gains the least of the three from this template, especially because of Elemental Wild Shape, which gives many immunities of the Undead type (of course, and Undead Druid would still gain this feature too.) Despite that, no real drawbacks from the template, other than being afraid of the Cleric your Dire Wolf is mauling.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-11, 01:23 AM
Look at it as the big 3
Wizards - No reason not to take this template. Free boosts, plus the immunities, d12 HD beats d4, plus some utility feats in a few levels (freeing up spell slots)

I just told you, d12 does not beat d4, because a higher average does not beat a good constant. I'd take d4+6 over d12 any day of the week. (And yes, it's really pretty easy to get 22 Con as a wizard).

The "utility feats" I assume you're talking about are Acrobatics of the Undead Lord (which a wizard can't take until 9th level, due to the Climb requirements) and...what else?



Clerics - Depends on the Cleric, but evil Undead Clerics are nothing to be scoffed at. Again, not much of a reason not to take this template, it even strengthens your own Rebuke checks (Which goes along very nicely with the turning all your teamates into vampires.) Obviously not good for a Good or Neutral aligned cleric, but as stated above, they gave up that path if they chose the template.


Fair enough, though I think having to give up on those domain options only available to good and neutral clerics is pretty harsh. Plus you miss out on spontaneous cure, which makes it harder for you to prepare healing spells for your entire party (and no, not everyone is going to be willing to burn a feat on Tomb-Tainted Soul just so you don't have to prepare cure spells).




Druid - You'd have to take Undead Wildshape (provided your group still uses Wildshape,) and most Druids find Undead an abomination, but that's fluff. Gains the least of the three from this template, especially because of Elemental Wild Shape, which gives many immunities of the Undead type (of course, and Undead Druid would still gain this feature too.) Despite that, no real drawbacks from the template, other than being afraid of the Cleric your Dire Wolf is mauling.

You're locked into being Neutral Evil. This is very, very specific. But yeah, the immunities are nice.

But each of the big three loses something serious: The ability to cast spells in broad daylight. I took that away, there's absolutely no way to recover it. (You can't even cast darkness on yourself when you're exposed to bright light, because you are just incapable of casting spells).

Yes, you can cast deeper darkness and have it last for days per level, but one dispel is like a targeted antimagic field on you. (And deeper darkness is cleric-only).

I would never play a caster with this template. I like being able to cast spells during the day, thank you.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-11, 01:35 AM
In an effort to weaken the template, I have removed the Str and Cha bonuses, as well as the skill bonuses. Now the template is exactly like the Necropolitan template, except you don't lose a level, and you gain the Blood Drain and Charm abilities. However, the weaknesses I have made do count for something, despite what you all seem to think.

Anyway, added Might of the Undead Lord as a racial feat, and changed Talents of the Undead Lord accordingly.

JackMage666
2012-03-11, 02:52 AM
I'm not saying they count for nothing, but Undead Immunity counteract their Weaknesses and still leave it strong. The Vampire Weaknesses are another matter altogether, but they can be avoided except in most circumstances (the crossing water covers itself, garlic/holy symbols are a minor irritant that also uses up the target's standard action, invitations can be acquired through RP and bluff or diplomacy checks, and no vampire in their right mind would be wandering around in sunlight, and if they're dragged into it they have a bigger problem, like something powerful enough to drag them into the sunlight.)

This is a template, after all, not a race. As a template, it get's all the benefits of being the race as well (except as noted) so it's not like Blood Drain and Charm Person and Undead type is all the character gets, s/he also gets the extra feat as a human, or the grace of an elf, or the boosted illusions of a gnome. There's gotta be some drawbacks to what you gain. The feat access is a huge bonus, Gaseous Form at-will is much more useful to a Rogue than a majority of feats, Dominate Person at-will, at the cost of 3 feats, lets you continuously have an expendable pawn at your disposal which is nice for anyone with some feats to blow, +8 to 7 very useful skills kicks Skill Focus in the face and makes fun of it's mother, Energy drain for the cost of two feats is something anyone in melee combat can enjoy, but these are things the character can pick and choose, should they fit the character.

I think this is a +1 template with the abilities/skills removed, and a decently strong one at that. You're still gaining considerably more than you lose.

+0 templates are hard. The only official one I can think of is Amphibious, which is very cut and dry. Necropolitan is too, technically, but it has an auto-LA-buyoff built in, rather than a strict LA. If you'd consider adding a similar ritual, that would knock it down to a +0, and it wouldn't be a long-term hinderance as it would even out when the other PCs matched the power.

Wavelab
2012-03-11, 05:26 AM
I wasn't very fond of this template until you changed it to a weakness to sunlight instead of being slain by it, now I love it.

This template seems balanced in the fact that if someone wants to kill you they can do so easily despite all your powers, I like it.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-11, 09:55 AM
+0 templates are hard. The only official one I can think of is Amphibious, which is very cut and dry. Necropolitan is too, technically, but it has an auto-LA-buyoff built in, rather than a strict LA. If you'd consider adding a similar ritual, that would knock it down to a +0, and it wouldn't be a long-term hinderance as it would even out when the other PCs matched the power.

Dragonborn of Bahamut is also a +0 LA template, and it grants flight. And I think you are seriously undervaluing the Constitution score. Really. You must not play a lot of barbarians, but pumping your Constitution gives you a ridiculous amount of hit points.

Not to mention, since you're undead, you don't naturally heal. Yes, you can get natural healing with feats, but they require you to be at least a certain level first.

Ah well, I already weakened the template. In my mind, it's a nice LA +0.

Owrtho
2012-03-11, 12:29 PM
As a suggestion, I'd say it might help if you took away most of the benefits of being undead and made it so feats were used to gain them (though keep the penalties). Could be flavoured as still being in the process of changing.

So there may be a feat to lose the con score (gaining the immunities that come with it) and gaining the d12 hit dice. Another for immunity to mind effecting. Another for immunity to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion. Another for immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (likely requiring the no con score feat).

This would likely help to mitigate the issue of the undead type being so powerful, as you wouldn't gain all the immunities at once.

Owrtho

Cieyrin
2012-03-11, 01:47 PM
The feat access is a huge bonus, Form at-will is much more useful to a Rogue than a majority of feats

Congrats, you're a mini-warlock. Being able to do one thing many times doesn't make you broken.


Dominate Person at-will, at the cost of 3 feats, lets you continuously have an expendable pawn at your disposal which is nice for anyone with some feats to blow

Leadership only costs me 1 feat and gets me servants and a cohort I can customize, rather than what the DM decides is available and decides to let me use.


+8 to 7 very useful skills kicks Skill Focus in the face and makes fun of it's mother

Congrats on being competent and forcing a good chunk of your point buy to make sure you can keep up with the skill monkeys.


Energy drain for the cost of two feats is something anyone in melee combat can enjoy, but these are things the character can pick and choose, should they fit the character.

You still have to hit and Enervation has been on the table for 2 levels now, which only has to deal with touch. The Wightacalypse has been going on for at least 6 levels, thanks to Fell Drain Sonic Snap. You're running late to the party.


I think this is a +1 template with the abilities/skills removed, and a decently strong one at that. You're still gaining considerably more than you lose.

Shifters aren't a strong race precisely b/c they have to spend feats to pick up their racial birthrights, feats they can't really afford. Still damn fun, they just don't stack up.


+0 templates are hard. The only official one I can think of is Amphibious, which is very cut and dry. Necropolitan is too, technically, but it has an auto-LA-buyoff built in, rather than a strict LA. If you'd consider adding a similar ritual, that would knock it down to a +0, and it wouldn't be a long-term hinderance as it would even out when the other PCs matched the power.

These are about as powerful as Lesser Aasimar and Lesser Tieflings. High end of LA +0, sure, I don't think requiring you to spend feats and having the DM cater to you and your weaknesses makes for a LA +1 template.


As a suggestion, I'd say it might help if you took away most of the benefits of being undead and made it so feats were used to gain them (though keep the penalties). Could be flavoured as still being in the process of changing.

So there may be a feat to lose the con score (gaining the immunities that come with it) and gaining the d12 hit dice. Another for immunity to mind effecting. Another for immunity to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion. Another for immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (likely requiring the no con score feat).

This would likely help to mitigate the issue of the undead type being so powerful, as you wouldn't gain all the immunities at once.

Owrtho

I would not, spending feats is not the way to balance a template. Not without bonus feats coming from somewhere so that I'm not being shoehorned into spending feats just so I can play a concept. It doesn't work for archers and TWFers, why would it work here?

Owrtho
2012-03-11, 02:02 PM
I would not, spending feats is not the way to balance a template. Not without bonus feats coming from somewhere so that I'm not being shoehorned into spending feats just so I can play a concept. It doesn't work for archers and TWFers, why would it work here?

For one thing, none of those are actually required to play a vampire. They are powerful boons, that are applied to undead in general in D&D but have little linking them to vampire mythology and folklore, or the vampires more commonly found in modern literature. As an example, given that vampires are usually depicted as being killed by either impaling the heart or sometimes cutting off the head, with most other wounds being merely superficial, there is no way they should be immune to critical hits. If anything, crits should deal extra damage to them, though be slightly harder to confirm.

If you want to play a vampire, the key points are already covered in the template with the bite attack, infecting others, counting as undead for magic, and vampiric weaknesses. All the rest is just 'generic D&D undead' which is not what most people who desire a vampire are trying to play. True it might be nice, and it is unlikely they would complain, but it is in no way necessary for playing a vampire.

Owrtho

Cieyrin
2012-03-11, 02:08 PM
For one thing, none of those are actually required to play a vampire. They are powerful boons, that are applied to undead in general in D&D but have little linking them to vampire mythology and folklore, or the vampires more commonly found in modern literature. As an example, given that vampires are usually depicted as being killed by either impaling the heart or sometimes cutting off the head, with most other wounds being merely superficial, there is no way they should be immune to critical hits. If anything, crits should deal extra damage to them, though be slightly harder to confirm.

If you want to play a vampire, the key points are already covered in the template with the bite attack, infecting others, counting as undead for magic, and vampiric weaknesses. All the rest is just 'generic D&D undead' which is not what most people who desire a vampire are trying to play. True it might be nice, and it is unlikely they would complain, but it is in no way necessary for playing a vampire.

Owrtho

I still wouldn't use feats to decide that, they're too few and too valuable. If you wanted to ala carte vampire features for your specific variety of vampire, I could get behind that entirely, like how the Fey'ri works.

Owrtho
2012-03-11, 02:22 PM
I still wouldn't use feats to decide that, they're too few and too valuable. If you wanted to ala carte vampire features for your specific variety of vampire, I could get behind that entirely, like how the Fey'ri works.

The point behind using the feats is more to get rid of the things that make most consider the template too powerful for LA+0, while still leaving them available to those who want them (though not without a cost). That said, it could be done as something like an experience cost similar to LA buyoff, thus you could get them, but not at level 1, as they would cost some of your xp, and thus be akin to LA, without forcing it on the template as a whole.

Owrtho

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-11, 07:11 PM
I like the template how it is. Forcing you to take feats to unlock more parts of it is just putting way too many feats into the template. If the undead template is too strong for an LA 0 in your DM's opinion, then you're just not going to play a vampire. Meanwhile, if I were a DM, I think this template is just fine, so I'd let my player use it.