[Pathfinder] Shadowdancer and darkvision

[Laniius]

Has there ever been an official ruling on whether darkvision defeats the Shadowdancers Hide in Plain Sight ability? My thoughts are that the shadow does not actually disappear if the guy with darkvision can see through it, and my DM's ruling is that as the person with darkvision isn't affected by shadow the shadowdancer's hide in plain sight is moot. I've seen arguments go round and round, but has anyone official come through on the topic? Either 3.5 or pathfinder; the game is pathfinder.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Has there ever been an official ruling on whether darkvision defeats the Shadowdancers Hide in Plain Sight ability? My thoughts are that the shadow does not actually disappear if the guy with darkvision can see through it, and my DM's ruling is that as the person with darkvision isn't affected by shadow the shadowdancer's hide in plain sight is moot. I've seen arguments go round and round, but has anyone official come through on the topic? Either 3.5 or pathfinder; the game is pathfinder.

IF I recall correctly... HiPS is a supernatural ability... but Darkvision is Extraordinary.

If I remember correctly, supernatural trumps extraordinary; thus, HiPS beats Darkvision.

[Laniius]

IF I recall correctly... HiPS is a supernatural ability... but Darkvision is Extraordinary.

If I remember correctly, supernatural trumps extraordinary; thus, HiPS beats Darkvision.

Is there an official source for this?

[peacenlove]

IF I recall correctly... HiPS is a supernatural ability... but Darkvision is Extraordinary.

If I remember correctly, supernatural trumps extraordinary; thus, HiPS beats Darkvision.

Incorrect. There is no such ruling.
HiPS enables you to use the Stealth skill to hide while close to a shadow. Darkvision sees unhindered by light conditions in black and white mode.
Thus, if the shadow is non magical, darkvision can see through it and thus spot the hidden creature.
Note that the creature hiding still rolls Perception rolls and is still hidden from creatures without darkvision.

[Laniius]

Incorrect. There is no such ruling.
HiPS enables you to use the Stealth skill to hide while close to a shadow. Darkvision sees unhindered by light conditions in black and white mode.
Thus, if the shadow is non magical, darkvision can see through it and thus spot the hidden creature.

But I am not hiding in a shadow. I'm in a damn spotlight. It is as bright as the brightest day where I am standing. However, there's a shadow within 10 feet of me. So I am hiding.

BUT anyway, that is the problem that me and my DM are having. I'm going with the DM in this case for interests of the game, but has there ever been any official ruling on this issue? I know there's enough board posts across the various forums to fill up multiple encylopedias, but has anything official ever been said in Pathfinder or 3.5?

[koscum]

IIRC, there was a lengthy discussion on WotC forum which ended with official word from the WotC that Darkvision beats Shadowdancer's HiPS. The same applies to the Assassin as well.

It could, however, beat True Seeing, even though HiPS is a Su ability, but this is not final and pretty much depends on DM and how you state your arguments.

Arguments in favour of HiPS in case of HiPS vs. True Seeing:

Even though it states that True Seeing does see through darkness (normal and magical), shadows are dim illumination and are thus unaffected by this.
True Seeing does not allow you to automatically spot creatures who are simply hiding, and with HiPS, you're kind of doing it. HiPS just says that it provides another way to trigger hiding.
If it's ruled that HiPS grants you concealment to start the hiding process, True Seeing would not beat it because it does not negate concealment.
HiPS is not an illusion/blur/displacement/invisibility/transmutation.
If you decide to fluff it up a bit, and, let's say that you supernaturally wrap the shadows around you to hide, True Seeing should still not be able to penetrate it because:

Shadows are actually there and are wrapping around you. You're not creating them, you're just moving what's already there (beats the whole abstract "see things as they actually are" thing).
It's still not an illusion/blur/displacement/invisibility/transmutation.



Arguments in favour of True Seeing in case of HiPS vs. True Seeing:

It allows you to see things as they actually are and because of that, you can't initiate the hiding process.
Shadows are considered as darkness.


There's only one way to be sure. Talk to your DM. That's what I did and, after explaining both the for and against arguments, I got to keep it this way (as long as I don't overdo it, which I won't... we already cause enough havoc on the Material Plane). And get that Ring of Darkhidden and Darkstalker feat. The ring'll make Darkvision useless against you (be careful, though... it works on allies as well) and Darkstalker'll do the same to Blindsight and similar effects.

[CTrees]

What the...

I mean, how...

So, I've edited my other post, now, but I was just looking through the vision and light rules, for Pathfinder specifically, and came across this question myself. And I just posted the same question in Pathfinder RAW thread, because it never occurred to me, before. This all before seeing this thread.

That coincidence is so very ridiculous...

But yeah, deleted that question out of that thread. Suffice to say, I'm curious, too.

[HylianKnight]

I know this thread is a year-old, but as someone who was searching for the answer and this thread popped up I'll leave my two cents:

I don't see how Dark Vision can possibly trump HiPS. You are using a supernatural/magical (in the colloquial sense) ability to disappear before everyone's eyes. The only requirement is that you are within 10-ft of an area of "Dim Light" or "Shadow." You don't have to even be in the shadow, you can stay still where you are directly below a streetlamp, doesn't matter because there's no movement necessarily involved. Even trying to work it by saying you draw the shadow to you seems a bit silly because people would be able to see the cloud of darkness in an otherwise lit area.

You are not hiding in an area of dim light. That's how Stealth works NORMALLY. If you're being observed by humans as a level-1 rogue, and have an area of dim light 10 ft behind you thanks to your teammate's torch, you can turn around and run into that area to stealth. That's not HiPS, that's the Stealth skill.

Furthermore, the thing everyone glosses over is that the ability doesn't even mention darkness, it says dim light. The question isn't if Dark Vision creatures can see them, its if creatures with Dark Vision and Dim Light Vision can see them. Also known as every single core-race besides Humans and Halflings. And thats not even touching the creatures you'd meet in dungeons that have one of those two attributes (which, if your dungeons require your players to carry a light, would be all of them presumably).

I just cannot see how you can rule this ability is susceptible to dark vision without making this ability essentially non-existent. Either you rule that you hide in shadow so the ability ceases to exist (because again, that's how normal stealth works). Or you rule that despite its supernatural, otherwise impossible nature, it arbitrarily only works against such a narrow portion of people you'd come across that it still unusable in the vast majority of cases.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I agree with Hylian.

You need shadow/darkness to use for Hide in Plain Sight. It does not matter if the enemy can see in it. Dim illumination is a 20% miss chance, and even someone with no special vision properties can see in it (dimly; hence the miss chance, but he can still see and target creatures in the area, unlike if they had total concealment). And yet this is enough for the shadow dancer to hide in.

If a dwarf can see a shadowdancer hiding in pitch darkness, then by the same logic a human can see a shadowdancer hiding in the dim lighting area of a torch. Congratulations, you've just written a completely worthless ability!

Shadowdancer's HiPS is Su, it's more than just hiding behind the shadow/darkness like it's a blanket. You're blending in with it. Seeing through the blanket doesn't freaking matter, you're part of the blanket.

[Answerer]

Thus, if the shadow is non magical, darkvision can see through it and thus spot the hidden creature.
Non sequitur.

Yes, you can see through the shadow, but the Shadowdancer is still in the shadow. The Shadowdancer's Supernatural ability to fade into the shadows is still active. Thus, even though the creature with Darkvision can see just fine in shadows, it still has a hard time distinguishing the Shadowdancer from the shadows.

Or, at least, so it could be argued.

I strongly doubt that there is an official ruling one way or the other. Seems up to the DM. I'd allow it to work.