PF: Making Archers

[Yora]

For my campaign, I want to include some heroic archers. Not just some elf chick who shots arrows from the background, but really heroic tough guys who use a bow as the primary weapon.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Arjuna_statue.JPG/400px-Arjuna_statue.JPG

But I've never build any ranged characters in any d20 game, so I am a bit of a loss with no better ideas than setting Dex high and taking the Point Blank Shot tree feats.

For my needs, maximum level is about 10th, but it would be good if the characters can work on lower levels as well. Available classes are barbarian, fighter, ranger, rogue, and oracle.
I'm not looking for specific builds, more like some insight in what to look out for when creating ranged combat characters.

And can you increase the range for Sneak attacks beyond 30 ft.?

[Palanan]

I've been working on something similar, although I was restricting myself to fighter only. As I discovered, ranged fighters get very little love in 3.5, and it's difficult to design a build that can keep up with other party members. I asked for advice on my own situation here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223876), and there are some good suggestions that might help you out. Eldariel's comments in particular were extremely helpful for someone who's fairly new to making ranged builds.

And, I have to recommend Eldariel's excellent Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0), which you may have already seen; he lays out what can be done with the relatively limited options available. You have several more classes to work with, so there may be more possibilities waiting for you. Some combination of ranger and the martial rogue (Unearthed Arcana p. 58) might give you good mix of feats, skills and combat style. I also like the Peerless Archer (Silver Marches p. 115), although I think eighth level is the earliest you can take it.

[Corlindale]

And can you increase the range for Sneak attacks beyond 30 ft.?

The Sniper archetype for the PF Rogue gets extended range as a class feature. Alternatively you could just buy some Sniper Goggles; a wondrous item from the APG.

I don't know much about ranged builds in general, though I hear Deadly Aim is a staple (basically power attack for ranged weapons). Also, there's a feat in Ultimate Combat called Clustered Shots or something, which lets you add the damage from all your attacks in a round together before applying DR - which can be a massive advantage.

[MajorWubba]

There are some classes and such that extend precision range to 60 ft. Can't remember them right now, though, but I'm sure the archery handbook lists them.

[Ravens_cry]

A Pathfinder Paladin archer could work I believe. Think about it. When you say "archer" are you stuck on bows and arrows? Because a dip in mysterious stranger gunslinger nets you +Charisma to damage as a swift action a certain n until your next turn a certain number of times per day.
Combining two weapon fighting with ranger might leave you a little feat starved, but you're doing ranged touch attacks, so Deadly aim will by a viable idea almost every shot. Combine with a Pathfinder Paladins smite, charisma to hit and level (and twice that on the first shot with some creatures) until the creature drops or you rest, and you will be putting out some hefty, hefty damage.
At least in theory, I have not tested it yet.

[Novawurmson]

There's a feat called Hawkeye in the upcoming Psionics Expanded that increases maximum sneak attack range by 15ft (among other things). If you preorder it, you get half the book up front (3/6 installments), with installment #4 coming out soon. Find the Mark (installment 2/6) brings a LOT of nice feats to ranged characters, plus the Marksman and the Soulbolt (archetype for Soulknives).

[jaybird]

IIRC the Zen Archer archetype for Monk is fairly good? Never played it so I wouldn't know, but it can't be worse then a Fighter, right? :smalltongue:

[Yora]

Believe me, it can! :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

It turns a MAD class basically monostat for almost anything you care to do as an archer. You get full BAB (as a class feature) Wisdom to armour, to hit, and you can eventually replace your bow damage with your unarmed progression, which at higher levesl adds a lot. With the Guided property, you get Wisdom to damage. In short, you need only Wisdom, Con, and Dex, and even then maybe not the last.
You can't use certain feats with your archery, but your flurry basically acts as those feats, you get bonus feats and you can spend ki points to get extra attacks, among other things.
Yep, if you start at above first level, or are willing to suck a little for a bit, Dwarves make the best archers.
Who knew?
You can make . . .Gravedust!

[Yora]

Dadly Aim I totally missed. No pun intended.
Should probably be one of the very first ones to take for any ranged fighter.

The Archer Archetype for Fighter really doesn't seem that great.
Hawkeye is meh.
The Trick Shots are nice, but I'd want to have Armor Training 1.
Expert Archer is the same thing as Weapon Training for bows.
Safe Shot can be done with Point Blank Master a lot earlier.
Evasive Archer is also meh and everything else is level 17+.

For low- to mid-level with possibly some multiclassing, I wouldn't take it.

[Reprimand]

Cleric with zen archery is pretty nice. Full spell casting is always good, rock out with some skirmisher's boots and an energy bow.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Feats you need/want: Point blank shot, precise shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Clustered Shots, Improved Precise Shot.

cool archery feats: Combat Reflexes, Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Point Blank Mastery.

Many builds in Pathfinder can get these feats in relatively short order. Ranger is nice, for not meeting pre-reqs, many of which are BAB related.

Fighter is easily possible.

Inquisitors, Paladins, Arcane Duelist Bards and Myrmidarch Magus builds are also good.

[Gavinfoxx]

What about this class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) as an archer?

[Blyte]

if you aren't set on bow, you can make a pretty nice "hurling" barbarian.

[Menteith]

If you can talk your DM into allowing you to run an Alchemist, you can pull of a build that has a single, high damage attack per round with limited casting. Explosive Missile has an advantage in that it doesn't have an upper limit on range and can apply some really unpleasant debuffs in addition to doing Xd6+Int Modifier+Weapon's damage each shot. Also lets you take a move action each turn instead of turreting, but lacks the raw damage potential that a Rogue can dish out on a surprised target within 30 ft.

[Infernalbargain]

If you're willing to burn through alchemicals at breakneck speed, then pistolero can be quite effective because you can get double dex to damage and with the double barrel pistol combined with rapid shot (but not manyshot) and a 2 level dip into wild rager barbarian to just spam out massive amount of attacks.

[Swooper]

If you can talk your DM into allowing you to run an Alchemist <snip>
I think the issue here is that her (his? I'm going with avatar gender) campaign setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213778) is basically in the iron age, and she's the DM. I doubt bomb-tossing alchemists or gunslingers are appropriate :smalltongue:

On topic, a barbarian dip for whirling frenzy is a viable option for many archery builds, assuming you allow 3.5 material.

[The_Scourge]

The PF Zen Archer monk actually works really well since it doesn't suffer from a lot of the problems standard monks have. You'll very rarely not be flurrying since you can do it at a range of 100+ft. You give up a lot of the useless monk abilities for being better with your bow. You get WF and WS for free along with some darn good archery feats (point blank mastery and improved precise shot) much earlier than anyone but a ranger would. On top of that, you can spend your ki points to make extra attacks or substitute your unarmed damage for your arrow damage for some extra... :smallcool: punch.
It's even less MAD than a standard archer since Wis is their primary stat for near everything. You only need Dex 13 for deadly aim then you can focus on Wis and Str for the manly composite bow action.
Other feats to consider are Clustered Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat)which makes the enemy's DR only conut once against all your attacks in a full attack (effectively eliminating one of the major weaknesses of archery) and the Snap Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-snap-shot-combat)line which let you threaten with your bow up to 15ft (A later ZA ability allows you to threaten and you threaten with your unarmed strikes anyway but the distance is nice).
Oddly enough, Dwarves make excellent Zen Archers. Bumps to Wis and Con with a hit to cha is almost as good as it gets. You're like the Scorpion King with a beardhttp://images.allmoviephoto.com/2002_The_Scorpion_King/2002_the_scorpion_king_019.jpg
It's a whole lot better than a Fighter.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Yes, you can increase your SA damage from more than 30f.

Crossbow Sniper feat, although you'll need at least the following feats:

-Weapon Focus (prereq)
-Rapid Shot (damage input)
-Rapid Reload (iterative attacks)

The best way to reach this at early levels is taking your first level of human ranger, and making Weapon Focus and Rapid Reload your feat selection. Then you take a rogue level for SA, then at 3rd level you take another ranger level, for Rapid Shot and use your feat on Crossbow sniper et voilá. You can now level up as rogue for all SA if you want.

In only 3 levels you are a deadly sniper:

Given a dex of 18, you can shoot from 60f for 2 bolts of 1d8+2+1d6 each.

[Novawurmson]

substitute your unarmed damage for your arrow damage for some extra... :smallcool: punch.
.

::grooooooooooooan::

[Dyllan]

You want heroic archer, Zen Archer monk is the way to go.

I'm playing one (a Dwarf). I joined the campaign at level 7. First battle, in the temple district between 4 temples (at a crossroads). We were setting up an ambush, and I was on the roof. So, unable to effectively return fire against me from the ground, 4 guys rush up what was basically a fire escape on the back of the building, while I rain down arrows on them. Just before they close to melee, I use a ki point with High Jump and jump 30 feet across the street to the adjacent building, then continue firing.

Zen Archer Monks are the heroic archers... they move like someone from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, they can fire at you from melee range, and if something were to happen to their bow, they'll just punch you in the face.

[Galanar]

pathfinder:

Go vanilla fighter any race ,
Carry a tower shield to plant on the ground and take cover behind
get rapid shot and many shot as soon as possible, use heavy armor at level 7
get snap shot at level 9 if you plan on being a close combat archer or far shot/ improved critical if not
you may also want to think of Disrupting Shot if magic is quite common


since the dps formula is :

many shot shot= str bonusx2 + weapon specialization x2 + weapon training x2 + bow magic bonusx2 + bow dice x2 + deadly aim x1 + point blanc shot x1

normal shot str bonusx1 + weapon specialization x1 + weapon training x1 + bow magic bonusx1 + bow dice x1 + deadly aim x1 + point blanc shot x1

a str of +3 is one of the best modifiers you will ever have ( dex does not add damage at all only hit bonuses)

get a +1 flaming bow as soon as possible



level 10 WBL is 62,000 gp, a +2 bow(+1 +shocking) is simply 8k and will increase DPR by 18

Mithral Full Plate of Speed is 23k giving you an extra attack and that means around 18 DPR extra , the bow is cheaper but the combo of the two makes good sinergy


example build


25 point build str 16 dex 17 con 12 (use +2 to dex)


long composite bow GQ+3 str bonus

feats#:
1 PBS, rapid shot
2 weapon focus long composite bow
3 deadly aim
4 weapon specialization
5 precise shot (+weapon mastery long bow)
6 Many shot
7 clustered shots
8 improved critical* or snap shot
9 greater weapon focus
10 critical focus*/Improved Snap Shot

Level__Average DPR<30ft__ +hit
1_______ 17 (2x8.5)______ 5
2_______17 (2x8.5)_______ 7
3 _______21 (2x 10.5)_____7
4 +dex___29 (2x 14.5)____ 8
5_______31 (2x 15.5)____10
6_______57 (1x26+ 2x15.5)11/6
7_______57 (1x26+ 2x15.5)12/7
8_______63 (1x28+ 2x17.5)13/8
9_______69 (1x30+ 2x18.5)15/10
10______69 (1x30+ 2.18.5)16/11


this does not include magical bonuses, arrow bonuses, extra damage from criticals
# no extra feat included, improved initiative is always welcome
* these are to increase critical dps, I have not bothered to calculate.

[Yora]

What has become of gritty heroic roleplaying?! :smallsigh:

But no, in seriousness: There's a lot on good pointers here at what things to take a closer look when planning to create archery NPCs. This helps me out a lot.