The Psion & The Erudite

[TechnOkami]

Hiya Playgrounders!

So, I've recently become interested in psionics, and I have a fairly basic understanding of how psionics works. However, far before I had interest in playing a psionic character, I saw that the Erudite was in the Tier 1 list of classes in D&D, and I would like to know specifically: how does the Erudite differ from the Psion? However, if there's one thing I'd like to express, it's to keep the explanation simple, but specific and thorough in its explanation.

Thank you!

[Novawurmson]

Why it's tier 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4938.0) (with Spell to Power option).

[DonutBoy12321]

Erudite can "prepare" powers, like a wizard. Psions spontaneously cast, like a sorcerer.

[FMArthur]

Psions know a bunch of powers - they learn two per class level - and they can manifest any of them any time they want if they have the power points for it. Like a sorcerer can cast any spell he knows if he has the spell slot for it.

The erudite can know unlimited powers. It learns them naturally at the same rate as a psion, but can also seek out power stones (or psionic entities in general) just like a wizard seeks scrolls, and put their powers into its repertoire. The erudite then knows that power forever. An erudite can manifest any power it knows, but after it has manifested a number of different powers equal to its Unique Powers Per Day, an erudite can then only manifest those same powers for the rest of the day and can no longer manifest the others it knows.

The difference between a Tier 1 and a Tier 2 is this: a tier 1 wields the same power as a tier 2, but can change how they do it from day to day. A sorcerer can smash encounters for his whole career with Overpowered Spells A and B. A wizard can decide to do that one day, and then do it with Spells C and D or E and F at any other day. That's why a Tier 1 is Tier 1.

If anything the erudite-psion comparison is a greater difference because they effectively 'prepare' their spells at the moment of casting. Pretty sure JaronK's old guide had erudite listed as Tier 2 if it didn't take a particular alternate class feature, and it's frankly just a result of his self-admitted lack of psionics experience/interest. All erudites are Tier 1 by the precedents and explanations for Tier 1s laid out in the tier system. 'Spell-to-Power' erudites (which can learn and manifest sorcerer/wizard spells as powers) are just even better Tier 1s.

[gkathellar]

^What he said.

StP Erudites are arguably the only class with as many dirty tricks as a wizard, but even regular Erudites have a hell of a lot of dirty tricks.

[Little Brother]

^What he said.

StP Erudites are arguably the only class with as many dirty tricks as a wizard, but even regular Erudites have a hell of a lot of dirty tricks.Two things:
1) StP Erudite>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wizard
2)Artificer

Overall, I would say that, in the hands of a competent player, an Erudite is the strongest base class in the game.

[gkathellar]

Wizards have access to a variety spellcaster-only tricks and Prestige Classes that Psionics can't duplicate (mostly because there's just less written material relating to psionics). It roughly evens them out.

[Little Brother]

Wizards have access to a variety spellcaster-only tricks and Prestige Classes that Psionics can't duplicate (mostly because there's just less written material relating to psionics). It roughly evens them out.And, with StP, I have EVERY SINGLE arcane spell, period(Hello, Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, GAF, Body outside Body, etc.), and have access to all those tricks through the Magic Mantle, and have more.

So, no. No it doesn't. The first one is all that's needed. The rest is just gravy.

[Wings of Peace]

And, with StP, I have EVERY SINGLE arcane spell, period(Hello, Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, GAF, Body outside Body, etc.), and have access to all those tricks through the Magic Mantle, and have more.

So, no. No it doesn't. The first one is all that's needed. The rest is just gravy.

Wizard has better metamagic abuses. Mainly because metamagic > metapsionics.

[gkathellar]

And Craft Contingent Spell, and IotSV/Incantatrix, and Dweomerkeeper, and so on and so forth. It evens out.

[Little Brother]

And Craft Contingent Spell, and IotSV/Incantatrix, and Dweomerkeeper, and so on and so forth. It evens out.Magic Mantle laughs at these.

WoP has the only counterpoint.

[Aquillion]

Erudite is to Psion as Wizard is to Sorcerer. By itself, this might not be enough (since psionic powers are slightly less broken than spellcasting, in general, though not by much, and fewer powers have been published overall), but they can also use the Spell to Power variant, which -- well, it was published on the Wizard website, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), so:

Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic).

Each spell costs a certain number of power points to manifest. The higher the level of the spell, the more power points it costs. The table below describes each spell's cost.

(Insert table with the same costs as equivilant-level powers.)Yes. Access to every arcane spell costs one feat. Since WotC published it, it must be balanced!

[Wings of Peace]

Magic Mantle laughs at these.

WoP has the only counterpoint.

Could you clarify the Magic Mantle point? If you mean it as a way for an Erudite to enter those prestige classes I would point out that Magic Mantle only makes powers into spells, it does not make them arcane spells.

[Little Brother]

Erudite is to Psion as Wizard is to Sorcerer. By itself, this might not be enough (since psionic powers are slightly less broken than spellcasting, in general, though not by much, and fewer powers have been published overall), but they can also use the Spell to Power variant, which -- well, it was published on the Wizard website, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), so:
Yes. Access to every arcane spell costs one feat. Since WotC published it, it must be balanced!Two. You need to give up your Psycrystal Affinity bonus feat for Favored Discipline(Magic). Otherwise, you're stuck at only the terrible level 8 spells /sarcasm

[Little Brother]

Could you clarify the Magic Mantle point? If you mean it as a way for an Erudite to enter those prestige classes I would point out that Magic Mantle only makes powers into spells, it does not make them arcane spells.No, it doesn't make your powers into spells. It does, however, makes your SPELLS into spells.

[Wings of Peace]

No, it doesn't make your powers into spells. It does, however, makes your SPELLS into spells.

What spells? My Spell-to-Power spells are very specifically psionic powers and not actual spells.

[AmberVael]

One of the things I never see mentioned or discussed about the Erudite is the need to pay for all your extra powers in experience. Granted, it's not a huge amount of experience, but that always seemed like a bit of a drawback to me. I know XP is a river and all, but nonetheless, it seems like a fairly irritating feature of the class.

[Aquillion]

Two. You need to give up your Psycrystal Affinity bonus feat for Favored Discipline(Magic). Otherwise, you're stuck at only the terrible level 8 spells /sarcasm...!

Does that mean that they have to... give up their familiar-equivalent?

Clearly they must be balanced, then! Anything that trades its familiar for power must be balanced.

[Little Brother]

What spells? My Spell-to-Power spells are very specifically psionic powers and not actual spells.Wrong. It is very clear that it is a spell being MANIFESTED. VERY different. VERY, VERY different.

[Psyren]

While we're on the subject of T0 classes, there is very, very little that a Psionic Artificer cannot do.


Erudite can "prepare" powers, like a wizard. Psions spontaneously cast, like a sorcerer.

While they do "prepare" powers, it is not at all like a wizard.
In a nutshell: Wizards prepare proactively, Erudites prepare reactively.


And, with StP, I have EVERY SINGLE arcane spell, period(Hello, Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, GAF, Body outside Body, etc.), and have access to all those tricks through the Magic Mantle, and have more.

Actually, you don't have all of them:

"Spells that allow a character to recall or recast a spell cannot be learned."

If your DM is really strict, this can even rule out stuff like Wish.

[Little Brother]

While we're on the subject of T0 classes, there is very, very little that a Psionic Artificer cannot do.Admittedly. I still hold that no class is stronger than the Erudite.

Actually, you don't have all of them:

"Spells that allow a character to recall or recast a spell cannot be learned."Allow me to rephrase: They get every spell that actually matters.

If your DM is really strict, this can even rule out stuff like Wish.Not seeing it. Explain.

[Psyren]

Not seeing it. Explain.

Wish can allow one to recall spells (by mimicking another spell that does so e.g. RME.) A strict reading would therefore have it fall under the prohibition.

Not saying I would rule this way, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Little Brother]

Wish can allow one to recall spells (by mimicking another spell that does so e.g. RME.) A strict reading would therefore have it fall under the prohibition.

Not saying I would rule this way, but it's something to keep in mind.Huh. I had never noticed this. Doesn't change Erudite's idiocy at all, though, or is at least insignificant to the total power of a class like that.

[Psyren]

Indeed, you can always use Psionic Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm) if your DM goes for this. (It would be hard for you to get Wish anyway pre-epic, without Chirurgery tricks.)

An unfortunate casualty of this ruling however would be Limited Wish, which is quite a bit better than the psionic version. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bendReality.htm)

[Novawurmson]

...!

Does that mean that they have to... give up their familiar-equivalent?

Clearly they must be balanced, then! Anything that trades its familiar for power must be balanced.

Necessary (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)

[Mnemnosyne]

If we remove spell to power from the discussion (to preserve it on a reasonable level), then the Erudite is a pretty decent class if you figure out how to handle its errors.

Its unique powers limitation, it should be noted, is not unique powers per day, by RAW. It's "unique psionic powers of each level per day" which means that at 20th level, an erudite would be able to manifest 11*9 = 99 unique powers per day, 11 of each level (note that he doesn't actually have enough power points to do this without a recharge trick). However, this was essentially a printing error - it's only RAW because no errata was ever released for CPsi.

If we take the table as unique powers per day, at low levels, the erudite is very difficult to play without yet another (probably unintended) trick that may or may not actually work (but if you want the erudite to be playable, you should allow it as a DM). This is the linked power metapsionic feat trick. The idea is that by manifesting one power and applying linked power to it, the power you link, which takes effect in the following round, doesn't count against your UPD. However, in my opinion, by a strict reading, the linked power trick doesn't actually work, because it states "one you intend to manifest in the next round" making it clear that you are still manifesting the power, and therefore it should count against your unique powers per day.

From whence came all these problems? From poor transferring. The Erudite as far as I can determine, originally appeared in Dragon #319, and it had a unique spells per day table identical to that of a wizard's spells per day: at 20th level, an Erudite would be able to cast 4 unique spells per level per day. Presumably in the transfer to CPsi, the decision was made to nerf this, but two problems came up: first, the text was not changed, meaning the text (which always supercedes the table) says per level per day, and two, they really must not have tested it much, because a low level Erudite is very difficult to play without using the linked power trick, which is undoubtedly unintended and arguably does not even work by RAW.

As a DM, I would personally fix this by going back to the original unique powers per day table in Dragon #319. Alternately, I might just double the unique powers per day listing on the CPsi table. Either way, I would rule that the linked power trick does not work.

[FMArthur]

I really wouldn't use anything like a wizard's chart. That seems excessive and almost spoils the uniqueness of the class - putting psionics into tiered-spell-slot format just harms the wonderful smooth-progression system that psionics works so hard to build.

Really all the UPD needs is a flat +1 and it becomes every bit as playable as a psion at the low levels where it is a concern. UPD is a limitation and should chafe a little bit considering the gains you make in the exchange. If you just get +1 UPD over the table, it doesn't ever ruin your early career and doesn't really make you much more overpowered later on than you would have been.

[TechnOkami]

...oh dear... :smalleek:

I think I'll just stick with a Psion for my first run on a psionic character.

[Psyren]

Personally I would split the baby and give them the Ardent's powers known as UPD progression. Wilder+1 is still too chafing imo.

So they would top out at 21 "prepared," still less than a Psion but enough to get things done. (And enough to actually want to use some of the utility powers floating around in their head, without resorting to tricks.)

[DonutBoy12321]

While they do "prepare" powers, it is not at all like a wizard.
In a nutshell: Wizards prepare proactively, Erudites prepare reactively.

I needed a Tier 1 to compare to, so I chose wizard. I am (somewhat) clear on how Erudites use powers.

[Wings of Peace]

Wrong. It is very clear that it is a spell being MANIFESTED. VERY different. VERY, VERY different.

Incorrect. The arcane spell is being learned as a power (a discipline power to be precise) hence why it is being manifested. Whether it's a spell or not is irrelevant however to my main point which is that with Magic Mantle the "spell" like all powers is just a spell, it is no longer arcane once we learn it as a power because there is no such thing as arcane powers. Because of this we can't use it to qualify for arcane things.

Yes we can use Magic Mantle to take things like Tainted Sorcerer or other non-specific casting prcs, but we can't take prcs that require a specific casting type like arcane.

[Wiggins]

Well, Psionics is a Spell like Ability, which like a Warlock according to the Complete Arcane qualifies for caster level requirements of PrCs... if they don't specify Arcane or Divine or Both, but simply say caster level... which very very few do.

[Psyren]

Well, Psionics is a Spell like Ability, which like a Warlock according to the Complete Arcane qualifies for caster level requirements of PrCs... if they don't specify Arcane or Divine or Both, but simply say caster level... which very very few do.

The problem isn't qualifying; it's advancing. You could finagle your way into a lot of casting PrCs as a Psion, but you wouldn't get much out of them.

Take a Master of Shadow (ToM), which requires Caster Level 5th. You could certainly make a case for Psion qualifying - but even if you got in, the PrC gives you "new mysteries or spells per day and an increase in caster level...as if you had also gained a level in a casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level."
None of these would benefit a manifesting class without an Adaptation of some kind.

[Little Brother]

Incorrect. The arcane spell is being learned as a power (a discipline power to be precise) hence why it is being manifested. Whether it's a spell or not is irrelevant however to my main point which is that with Magic Mantle the "spell" like all powers is just a spell, it is no longer arcane once we learn it as a power because there is no such thing as arcane powers. Because of this we can't use it to qualify for arcane things.No, it's being learned as a spell that is learned as a discipline power. It is referenced as a spell every single time. Therefore, it is a spell.

Yes we can use Magic Mantle to take things like Tainted Sorcerer or other non-specific casting prcs, but we can't take prcs that require a specific casting type like arcane.But, once you cast arcane spells, you are an arcane spellcaster. Therefore, Ardent 1/StP Erudite 3 works to get into whatever you want.

The problem isn't qualifying; it's advancing. You could finagle your way into a lot of casting PrCs as a Psion, but you wouldn't get much out of them.

Take a Master of Shadow (ToM), which requires Caster Level 5th. You could certainly make a case for Psion qualifying - but even if you got in, the PrC gives you "new mysteries or spells per day and an increase in caster level...as if you had also gained a level in a casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level."
None of these would benefit a manifesting class without an Adaptation of some kind.Which is why you use the Ardent with StP Erudite knowing spells. You are casting arcane spells, which solves the problem.

[Psyren]

Which is why you use the Ardent with StP Erudite knowing spells. You are casting arcane spells, which solves the problem.

I'm with you on the "they count as spells" point, but you are never casting them - you are manifesting them.

"Each spell costs a certain number of power points to manifest."
"The erudite uses her manifester level for determining the effects of the spell being manifested..."
"Every 1 extra power point spent at the time of manifesting increases the spell's effective caster level by 1..."

It's a fine distinction, but a consistent one - a StP Erudite is never at any point "a casting class." It will therefore only benefit from PrCs that advance manifesting classes, even if it can qualify for non-manifesting ones.

[Little Brother]

I'm with you on the "they count as spells" point, but you are never casting them - you are manifesting them.

"Each spell costs a certain number of power points to manifest."
"The erudite uses her manifester level for determining the effects of the spell being manifested..."
"Every 1 extra power point spent at the time of manifesting increases the spell's effective caster level by 1..."

It's a fine distinction, but a consistent one - a StP Erudite is never at any point "a casting class." It will therefore only benefit from PrCs that advance manifesting classes, even if it can qualify for non-manifesting ones.Except with the Magic Mantle.

[Psyren]

Except with the Magic Mantle.

"You treat magic and psionics as identical" is not the same as "you treat casting and manifesting as identical." Anything that relies on a favorable DM interpretation to work isn't sound fodder for optimization, because DMs are so diverse in what they accept and what they don't.

[Little Brother]

"You treat magic and psionics as identical" is not the same as "you treat casting and manifesting as identical." Anything that relies on a favorable DM interpretation to work isn't sound fodder for optimization, because DMs are so diverse in what they accept and what they don't.Except spellcasting is the mere casting of spells. The class feature in and of itself is "spells" or "Powers known." The act of producing them is what makes it casting or manifesting. Since Magic=Psionics, then casting=manifesting.

[Psyren]

The act of producing them is what makes it casting or manifesting.

"The process of manifesting a power is akin to casting a spell, but with significant differences." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm)

A prima facie separation is implied by the rules; the Magic Mantle does not change that. Your argument is a fine one to put to a DM, but not one that the rules automatically adjudicate.

The Magic Mantle itself belies your interpretation: "Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems." This indicates that the mantle offers no more than default transparency. I'm personally fine with giving the mantle more than that, but that is again a DM call.

[Little Brother]

"The process of manifesting a power is akin to casting a spell, but with significant differences." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm)Yeah, differences WHERE STATED. Otherwise, it's the same. This makes it the same.

A prima facie separation is implied by the rules; the Magic Mantle does not change that. Your argument is a fine one to put to a DM, but not one that the rules automatically adjudicate.Implication =/=RAW.

The Magic Mantle itself belies your interpretation: "Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems." This indicates that the mantle offers no more than default transparency. I'm personally fine with giving the mantle more than that, but that is again a DM call.By your logic here, KotSS's capstone functions just as the monk's, not what it specifies.

[Psyren]

Yeah, differences WHERE STATED. Otherwise, it's the same. This makes it the same.

The same how? You need to specify everything, from how it interacts with AMF to whether it provokes AoO to whether it can be detected by onlookers etc. Nowhere in the rules says "casting = manifesting" not even in the Magic Mantle.


Implication =/=RAW.

There is no RAW here; nothing is specified. Hence, the DM.


By your logic here, KotSS's capstone functions just as the monk's, not what it specifies.

Whereas by your logic, A Cerebremancer could apply both sides of his advancement to StP Erudite and be epic-ready long before 20.

[Little Brother]

The same how? You need to specify everything, from how it interacts with AMF to whether it provokes AoO to whether it can be detected by onlookers etc. Nowhere in the rules says "casting = manifesting" not even in the Magic Mantle.Yes it does, you linked to it.

There is no RAW here; nothing is specified. Hence, the DM.If it is "identical for the most part" or something similar, it is different only where specified.

It is quite clear, spellcasting is producing spells, and, when magic=psionics, you are producing spells in an identical way, as they are spells, as opposed to cast powers.

Whereas by your logic, A Cerebremancer could apply both sides of his advancement to StP Erudite and be epic-ready long before 20.Yup. I', pretty sure we've talked about Ardent 1/StP Disciplined Erudite 3/Cerebremancer 7 for double 9s before.

[Psyren]

Yes it does, you linked to it.

The closest I see on that page is "akin to" which is a far cry from what you're suggesting.


If it is "identical for the most part" or something similar, it is different only where specified.

It is quite clear, spellcasting is producing spells, and, when magic=psionics, you are producing spells in an identical way, as they are spells, as opposed to cast powers.

A reasonable conclusion perhaps, but still requiring of DM judgement rather than being a stated rule.


Yup. I', pretty sure we've talked about Ardent 1/StP Disciplined Erudite 3/Cerebremancer 7 for double 9s before.

Maybe you have; I don't consider this impossible, but it relies on DM interpretation rather than simply being assumed.

[FMArthur]

It never occurred to me before reading this thread that you could sacrifice your Psycrystal Affinity bonus feat to get both Favored Discipline and Convert Spell to Power erudites by trading two technical 'bonus feats' features away... but is "magic" really a valid target for Favored Discipline? You treat the spells as being discipline powers for the purpose of learning them, but they don't get assigned to any particular discipline - there isn't a catch-all discipline that collects unassigned discipline powers or anything and you don't get to make one up.

I don't think it works. The Psycrystal-as-a-bonus-feat trade thing is cool though, and I think that works. I'd probably take Mantled Erudite with it since a Favored Discipline doesn't seem to confer as great a benefit as previously thought (but correct me if I've missed something that makes it work after all). Assuming that this Magic Mantle business does not work and would not fly in a real game even if it did, what do you guys think would be the most beneficial mantle for an erudite to take?