PDA

View Full Version : Has anyone ever played with a 2d6 system?



Private-Prinny
2011-12-18, 09:14 PM
I'm coming up with a basic framework for a new RPG system I plan on working on (but I don't expect anything soon), and instead of the standard d20 system perpetuated by D&D, I was thinking of using 2d6 for most, if not all, rolls as part of the system.

I've seen a couple of systems floating around using 2d6 as a base (the FFd6 system, for example), and I was wondering if any playgrounders could tell me about their experience with that sort of system.

kaomera
2011-12-18, 09:35 PM
I've used a few 2d6 systems, most of them fairly rules-light. There really isn't anything super-special about 2d6, which I think may be kind of the point. Obviously you get results from 2 to 12, with a bell-curve. I think it supports relatively small modifiers; one of the potential advantages of using a flat distribution would be that you can have your bonuses get as big as you want. With a bell curve the difference between 7+ vs. 8+ is greater than the difference between 8+ and 9+.

Knaight
2011-12-18, 09:42 PM
I've used PDQ some, and while I do dislike parts of it, they aren't tied into the 2d6 framework at all. That said, a dice system means very little, unless one screws something up horrendously.

Howler Dagger
2011-12-18, 09:52 PM
A user here, Lothofkalroth produced a generic game system called 2d6.

Dimers
2011-12-18, 10:32 PM
I've seen a couple of systems floating around using 2d6 as a base (the FFd6 system, for example), and I was wondering if any playgrounders could tell me about their experience with that sort of system.

A long time ago I played Mechwarrior (or Battletech -- I can never remember which is the RPG), which was 2d6-based. The mechanism didn't stand out in any big way, other than Natural Aptitude -- it wasn't especially swingy or overly neutral. I think with the experience I've gained since then I would now expect 2d6 to be a little to design for if you like giving exact numbers for modifiers, because stacking mods gets too big too quickly.

Natural Aptitude was a special bonus you could buy for one trait to let you roll 3d6 and drop the lowest every time you use that trait. I like the simplicity and optimization potential in that idea, so I imported it into a couple GURPS games and eventually into the game system I've been designing.

Leftahead
2011-12-18, 11:50 PM
I've seen a couple of systems floating around using 2d6 as a base (the FFd6 system, for example), and I was wondering if any playgrounders could tell me about their experience with that sort of system.

Vincent Baker's Apocalypse World (http://apocalypse-world.com/) (and all of the various hacks and spin-offs like Dungeon World (http://www.dungeon-world.com/)) uses a 2d6 system really effectively. It's worth a look before you start from scratch, and Vincent is pretty cool about letting people hack the system to do new and interesting things.

Totally Guy
2011-12-19, 01:49 AM
What a game is about and how it plays is more important than what dice you use.

It's not what you roll, it's what you roll for.

Private-Prinny
2011-12-19, 03:04 AM
What a game is about and how it plays is more important than what dice you use.

It's not what you roll, it's what you roll for.

This is something I'm keeping in mind. But, there are certain things that a more bell-shaped curve is suited for compared to a flat distribution, and vice versa. I'm trying to figure out what those things are before I mess up the mechanics on a basic level.

Totally Guy
2011-12-19, 03:39 AM
I recommend looking at the apocalypse world playbooks. They are written in such as way as to quickly allow someone who is new to get the game.

Here (http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorld-playbooks.pdf?bcsi_scan_03DEEAA357C9E78B=0&bcsi_scan_filename=ApocalypseWorld-playbooks.pdf)

Each sheet is different for each class, plus there's a basic moves sheet near the end.

I'm not saying every game with 2d6 must be like apocalypse world but I'm using it as an example of what a dice roll can mean in a game. Apocalyse world operates under different assumptions than you might be used to and that's a good thing to see and acknowledge.

Edge of Dreams
2011-12-19, 04:21 AM
I find that bell curves work very well for systems with low granularity. Dresden Files RPG (and other FATE systems), for example, ranks skills from 0 to 5, and roll 4 fudge dice, which produces a result from -4 to +4 on a bell curve. This means a +1 bonus is pretty significant, and 90% of the abilities available to players don't give a bonus of more than +2. Big advantage here: characters almost always perform close to their actual skill value, but can occasionally do far far better or worse.

On the other extreme, there's percentile systems like Runequest, with really high levels of granularity. There, you have a skill ranked with a value from 0 to 100, and you roll a d100 against the skill (Dance skill of 63%? Roll d100 and aim for 63 or lower). This allows characters to gradually advance skills by gaining 1 or 2% every session, and encourages subtle differences between characters. On the other hand, a situational bonus has to be pretty big before it starts to feel meaningful in such a system: +10% or +20% bonuses are pretty common. Big advantage here: the player always knows EXACTLY how likely they are to succeed on any roll.

That sliding scale of granularity (small numbers versus big numbers) is probably the biggest thing that your choice of dice system will interact with in your game design. Put yourself somewhere you like on that scale, then don't worry about it too much, so long as you make sure the math of the rest of the system works out.

Autolykos
2011-12-19, 06:10 AM
I've used a few 2d6 systems, most of them fairly rules-light. There really isn't anything super-special about 2d6, which I think may be kind of the point. Obviously you get results from 2 to 12, with a bell-curve. I think it supports relatively small modifiers; one of the potential advantages of using a flat distribution would be that you can have your bonuses get as big as you want. With a bell curve the difference between 7+ vs. 8+ is greater than the difference between 8+ and 9+.
Nitpick: The distribution of 2d6 looks more "triangular" than bell-shaped. It isn't until 3d6 that it starts looking somewhat bell-shaped. It's still a binomial distribution though, and only converges to a normal distribution for N towards infinity (but using infinite dice is considered slightly impractical by most people).

Kurald Galain
2011-12-19, 07:22 AM
I've seen a couple of systems floating around using 2d6 as a base (the FFd6 system, for example), and I was wondering if any playgrounders could tell me about their experience with that sort of system.
In my experience, it works pretty well: it is very fast to roll 2d6 and add them, it gives enough of a bell curve to avoid a low stat beating a high stat on a lucky contested roll (assuming ties go to the high stat), and critical hits are reasonably common but not as often as 5%.

3d6 would probably be even better, except that it means crits only occur once in a blue moon (unless that is what you want, of course).

Tyndmyr
2011-12-19, 09:12 AM
It works. I have no particular love for it or dislike towards it.

I might utilize it for a fairly stats-light game with a high level of abstraction along the lines of Necromunda or Mordheim.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-12-19, 09:20 AM
As an aside: another way to get low variance with 2d6 is a +/- system like that in Feng Shui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_%28role-playing_game%29). Here you have a positive (+d) and a negative die (-d) each of which explode on 6.

For checks you take your relevant stat+skill (which is an integer like 11) and modify it by the roll of the +d and the -d. While normally your scores end up within 6 of your base value it still leaves room for luck to screw you or save you.

Dimers
2011-12-19, 10:56 AM
3d6 would probably be even better, except that it means crits only occur once in a blue moon (unless that is what you want, of course).

You can adjust which numbers cause crits, of course, just like certain weapons and feats do in D&D 3.5. GURPS does that with skill level -- if you have a high skill, your crit range improves.

Private-Prinny
2011-12-19, 01:23 PM
3d6 would probably be even better, except that it means crits only occur once in a blue moon (unless that is what you want, of course).

3d6 was actually my original thought, but 2d6 makes more thematic sense. Most of this is going to revolve around the number 7.

I'll look into Apocalypse World and Feng Shui. That and FFd6 should give me enough of a feel to start developing a base.

Makiru
2011-12-19, 04:02 PM
Pirates vs. Ninjas, in my sig. All I've really been playing for two years now. I make characters in my sleep.

No, seriously, I have problems sleeping now.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-19, 04:13 PM
Apparently, the new Iron Kingdoms game is going to be 2d6, like the wargame. The trouble I see is it produces a pretty sharp bell curve. Seven comes up a lot.
Also, it is a fairly small number set, so an added one or two modifier means that much more, which means the system is inherently not very granular.
That's a good thing for a war game where speed of play is very important, but for most RPG, it doesn't leave much room for customization.
For a rules light system I see it working, but not so much for something that is more rules heavy.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-19, 04:17 PM
Well, mid range boosts matter a lot. Going from a success on 8+ to a success on a 7+ is pretty great. Going from 11+ to 10+....not as much.

So, you end up with certain skill ranges being notably more optimal than others, in most situations.

Doug Lampert
2011-12-19, 04:18 PM
I'm coming up with a basic framework for a new RPG system I plan on working on (but I don't expect anything soon), and instead of the standard d20 system perpetuated by D&D, I was thinking of using 2d6 for most, if not all, rolls as part of the system.

I've seen a couple of systems floating around using 2d6 as a base (the FFd6 system, for example), and I was wondering if any playgrounders could tell me about their experience with that sort of system.

Big Eyes Small Mouth and the rest of the Tristat family of games mostly use 2d6 (the superhero version used 2dX where X had to do with the campaign power level IIRC).

Nothing wrong with the die rolling mechanism, but the system is breakable on other grounds.

Friv
2011-12-19, 04:34 PM
As an aside: another way to get low variance with 2d6 is a +/- system like that in Feng Shui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_%28role-playing_game%29). Here you have a positive (+d) and a negative die (-d) each of which explode on 6.

For checks you take your relevant stat+skill (which is an integer like 11) and modify it by the roll of the +d and the -d. While normally your scores end up within 6 of your base value it still leaves room for luck to screw you or save you.

Now, I may be making some sort of math misunderstanding, but... what exactly is the difference between this and a normal 2d6 system, besides requiring you to have color-coded dice? As near as I can tell, isn't it functionally identical? You have a total possible range of 10, with a higher chance in the middle and a lower chance on the edges, and 36 possible rolls.

Private-Prinny
2011-12-19, 04:56 PM
Now, I may be making some sort of math misunderstanding, but... what exactly is the difference between this and a normal 2d6 system, besides requiring you to have color-coded dice? As near as I can tell, isn't it functionally identical? You have a total possible range of 10, with a higher chance in the middle and a lower chance on the edges, and 36 possible rolls.

The probabilities are functionally identical, just everything is shifted down by 7.

kaomera
2011-12-19, 08:42 PM
Now, I may be making some sort of math misunderstanding, but... what exactly is the difference between this and a normal 2d6 system, besides requiring you to have color-coded dice?
iirc: The dice ''explode'', meaning that you re-roll and add to the existing value, so you could potentially go higher than +5 or lower than -5.

Private-Prinny
2011-12-19, 10:58 PM
iirc: The dice ''explode'', meaning that you re-roll and add to the existing value, so you could potentially go higher than +5 or lower than -5.

So that's what that means? Eh, I'd rather have lower granularity than that.

Arian Dynas
2011-12-20, 02:01 AM
Check out BESM, aka Big Eyes Small Mouth, from Lords of the Order, out of print but it might be what you're looking for.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-12-20, 06:54 PM
So that's what that means? Eh, I'd rather have lower granularity than that.
Er, yes. Sorry about the confusion.

An "exploding" die is one that, when a given value is rolled (typically a 6 on a d6) you roll an additional die and combine it with the one you just rolled.
You can either use this in a straight value system (like Feng Shui) so that when a +d comes up as "6" you gain an additional +d for that check. Likewise for -ds, of course. Notably, there is no limit on the number of "explosions" per check -- you could end up with a dozen +ds and a hundred -ds for a given check if each new die roll came up as a 6.

You can also use it in dice pool systems to gain additional chances of success. In a game like WoD where you roll a certain number of dice and count successes, you end up increasing the size of your pool for that check with each explosion. So, if you had a pool of 4 dice you would normally expect between 0 and 4 successes. With exploding dice, you could theoretically increase that pool as long as you kept rolling explosions.
For Feng Shui the +/- d mechanic is basically a crude way to institute standards of deviation into your dice rolling. Stat + 2d6 gives you a bell curve distribution but nobody can actually have a "bad day." There's no way that anyone with a skill difference of at least 10 can do more than tie with the superior skill holder. In Feng Shui even a swordmaster can have a bad day and lose to a novice thanks to exploding -ds (and a novice who is having an excellent day can win with +ds) although those situations are rarer the greater the difference in skill.

Dr. Roboto
2011-12-21, 01:50 PM
For any work with dice systems, you might want to check out AnyDice (http://anydice.com/). It's excellent for plotting graphs of probabilities for dice, and supports explosion.

c0rg1
2018-10-15, 01:25 PM
Have you checked into the "Fabled Lands" rpg.
Many "adventure game books" from the 1980s seemed to have the unspoken rule of using only 2d6. The illusion that the systems provided for those books could be expanded into a full fledged tabletop rpg was just that, an illusion. Some made the transition such as "Fabled Lands" and "Fighting Fantasy" with various levels of success.

In truth a straight 2d6 die roll yields only 12 digits of results. In playing many game books to see differnt systems I find it to be highly restrictive. However if modifiers are applied to the roll and counter roll this effectively extends the system above and below the 12 digit range. Unfortunately 1d6 yields a +/- 3 average. Having a mod beyond 3 is like adding or subtracting a whole dice.

3d6 yields a 18 digit range and allows for more flexibility, even more so with mods.

Just my two cents.

Arbane
2018-10-15, 10:54 PM
Also, Unisystem (as seen in Witchcraft, the old Buffy game and All Flesh Must Be Eaten) uses 2d6. Seems pretty solid.

Kane0
2018-10-15, 11:19 PM
A long time ago I played Mechwarrior (or Battletech -- I can never remember which is the RPG), which was 2d6-based. The mechanism didn't stand out in any big way, other than Natural Aptitude -- it wasn't especially swingy or overly neutral. I think with the experience I've gained since then I would now expect 2d6 to be a little to design for if you like giving exact numbers for modifiers, because stacking mods gets too big too quickly.

Natural Aptitude was a special bonus you could buy for one trait to let you roll 3d6 and drop the lowest every time you use that trait. I like the simplicity and optimization potential in that idea, so I imported it into a couple GURPS games and eventually into the game system I've been designing.

Battletech is the wargame, mechwarrior the RPG and some of the franchise videogames. It was pretty average but indeed used 2d6.
I think they're up to 'A Time of War' now, not sure if that's still 2d6 based.

weckar
2018-10-18, 08:57 AM
As already mentioned: BESM, but really any Tri-Stat dX system is playable with d6s. There's a neat one that's basically "secret of NIMH the RPG", though it can just as easily be played as the Rescuers or Chip n Dale Rescue Rangers. Or some blend. Ah, good times. Wish I could remember the name, but there aren't that many TSdX games out there. I think it was natively d4, though.

Knaight
2018-10-18, 09:08 AM
I'd been holding off on actually making a post for this, but - check the dates. There's a 7 year jump in this thread. It's dead.