Pathfinder Rogue (minus the Rogue)

[grarrrg]

Ok, I was bored, was reading various Archetypes looking for ideas (read: loopholes), and came across some interesting things.

I present,

The Rogueless Rogue!
(no Ninjas either)

First up: Trapfinding (and minor skill boost)
These are easily accomplished by taking Ranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger)>Trapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper)(could also do Urban Ranger, you're call) for 2 levels, we lose Spellcasting (which we weren't going to gain anyway so no loss). For Combat Style were taking "Natural" and picking Aspect of the Beast (taking either the Vision-boost, or Initiative/Survival-boost).

Next up: Sneak Attack/Uncanny Dodge
Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist)>Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist)trades out Bombs for Sneak Attack at the same rate as a Rogue. We are going to take 6 levels, which gives us 3d6 Sneak, 2nd level Extracts, 3 Discoveries, and a Mutagen.
Discoveries are LARGELY centered around Bombs, there are not many Discoveries that would help our build.
Thankfully Vivisectionist lets us take the "Bleeding Attack" Rogue Talent as a Discovery, this will help our otherwise low Sneak damage.
We are also going to take the Internal Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/internal-alchemist) archetype, we lost Throw anything and the 'swifts', but gain Uncanny Dodge at 6th, and adds a small list of feats we can take instead of Discoveries. Alertness and Iron Will seem like decent choices. We could take more Alchemist (SNEAK!), but Extracts are a non-Rogue thing, and the remaining Discovery/Feat choices are 'meh'.

Thirdly: Evasion
2 levels of Shadowdancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/shadowdancer) net us Evasion, bump us up to Improved Uncanny Dodge, and gives us Hide in Plain Sight.

So what are we missing?
SKILLS for one thing. More Sneak Attack for another.
In lieu of Skills we're just going to have to boost our INT score.
But I have found another, synergistic, Precision Damage Source.

Duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/duelist) (OH! that explains some of the stupid feats he was taking before...)
Each level adds 1 Precision damage to our attacks, and +1 to AC (max of Duelist level, or INT mod, whichever lower). At 10th we get a variety of useful effects when we land a Critical hit.

We can also take the Feat Precise Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/precise-strike-combat-teamwork) for a (potential) extra 1d6 when Flanking.

Notable/Necessary Feats:
Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat)
Improved Critical Scimitar
Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Finesse
Combat Reflexes

Final Build
Ranger 2/Alchemist 6/Shadowdancer2/Duelist 10
Stats Dex>Int>Con>Wis>Str>Cha (Elf or Human are good race choices)
12d10 + 8d8 HD
17 Bab (18 if Fractional)
Min. 4 skills/level
We have Dex-to-hit-and-damage with our Scimitar
3d6+10 "sneak" attack damage
We have a Mutagen gives Dex +4, AC +2, and Wis -2


Thoughts/additions/corrections?

[gkathellar]

That's a decent fighter-without-the-fighter build you've got there. Dunno why you're calling it a rogue, since its skill points are so low.

[grarrrg]

That's a decent fighter-without-the-fighter build you've got there. Dunno why you're calling it a rogue, since its skill points are so low.

Well, to make a non-rogue Rogue, there are 3 key features:
Trapfinding
Sneak Attack
Skill points
Unsurprisingly, the Rogue is the only one with all 3. So any final build would have to skimp in at least 1 area. I chose to favor Sneak Attack over Skills.
There are also a handful of less important features, such as Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, but these are easier to come by.

Out of all the official Pathfinder Classes, the ONLY base-class to have 8-skill points is the Rogue (and the Ninja, which is an "alternate" Rogue). Including PrC's there are the Pathfinder Chronicler, Pathfinder Delver and Shackles Pirate. The Chronicler is non-combat focused, the Pirate is very Boat/Shore focused. The Delver actually Gains Trapfinding.*

There are twothree 6-skill base classes, the Ranger, the Bard, and the Inquisitor. Of these the Ranger is most fitting, but has little in the way of (non-favored) bonus damage. The Inquisitor only really offers Skills, it it a true "Jack of All Trades" class, but not much can be tweaked to yell ROGUE. The Bard can gain Trapfinding via two different archetypes, but both of them are fairly 'non-combat'. And... wow... completely missed the Archaeologist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist). Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Trapfinding, ROGUE TALENTS.... wow... the only thing missing is the Sneak Attack.... I may have to rebuild...*

There are (at least) six 6-skill PrC's
Horizon Walker: Easy entry and the only of the 4 with full-Bab. But no bonus damage, little/no synergy
Lion Blade: Need 3 levels of Bard to enter, BUT the 'Trapfinding' Bard Archetype trades away the feature we need in order to enter. And the Sneak Attack only progresses at half (1d6/4-levels)
Master Spy: It gains Sneak Attack, but is otherwise non-combat focused. And the entry requirements are quite heavy on the Skill investment
Shadowdancer: Hmmm. We already have Dodge/Mobility for Duelist entry... Why not? Goodbye Monk, Hello Shadowdancer!
Red Mantis Assassin: Must be Lawful Evil, and are HEAVILY encouraged to use a Sawtooth Sabre as your weapon
Student of War: Medium entry reqs, full Bab, decent abilities. For my build though, Duelist was better in every way, save for Skill points.

* Given the Pathfinder Delver and Bard>Archaeologist I may have to rethink parts of the build... Alchemist is still in though, as it's the only non-Rogue, non-PrC source of Sneak Attack.
If you notice though, I did pick classes with minimum 4 skills/level, and managed to make INT useful for more than just skill points.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Would it possible to do this the other way around? Take the Rogue class but trade out absolutely everything for something non-rogueish = Rogue minus the Rogue.

[JadePhoenix]

Would it possible to do this the other way around? Take the Rogue class but trade out absolutely everything for something non-rogueish = Rogue minus the Rogue.

Yeah,that's what I wanted as well. It should be doable.

[supermonkeyjoe]

So Acrobat and Scout archetypes replace trap finding, trap sense, uncanny dodge and imp. uncanny dodge. The only problem is trading out sneak attack for something

[jmelesky]

There are two 6-skill base classes, the Ranger and the Bard, of these the Ranger is more fitting, but has little in the way of (non-favored) bonus damage.

Don't forget the Inquisitor, the Divine answer to the arcane Bard.

[Novawurmson]

Rogue talents are a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Rogues will also do more sneak attack damage. You do an average of 20.5 "sneak attack" damage on hit. A Rogue does an average of 35 sneak attack damage on hit.

Also don't forget that your build is focused on one-handed fighting, when a Rogue can be a two-weapon fighting fiend with his better sneak attack damage and more hits.

The biggest thing in your favor is the Alchemist levels giving you a once a day boost to your dex and extracts. It's not a bad build, but for the most part I think Rogue 10 would be a better way to finish it :P

Edit: Your build also does more consistent damage (dex to damage, duelist class features), while Rogues burst better.

[gomanfox]

2 levels of Flowing Monk only gets you one bonus feat, not two. Their ability Unbalancing Counter replaces the bonus feat monks normally get at second level.

[grarrrg]

Rogue talents are a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Rogues will also do more sneak attack damage. You do an average of 20.5 "sneak attack" damage on hit. A Rogue does an average of 35 sneak attack damage on hit. .....but for the most part I think Rogue 10 would be a better way to finish it :P

:smallsigh: The point is to build a Rogue without using Rogue. It's assumed that we will not quite measure up.
I agree Rogue Talents are nifty, but there aren't many ways for a non-rogue to take them.
Getting to 2/3rds the sneak attack damage of a Rogue I count as a Success not a failure.
Yes Two-weapon would be 'better', but Duelist features (usually) only work if you use 1 weapon. A non-Duelist build with more Alchemist and Two-weapons would work well.


2 levels of Flowing Monk only gets you one bonus feat, not two. Their ability Unbalancing Counter replaces the bonus feat monks normally get at second level.

It has already been replaced by the more fitting Shadowdancer (which winds up costing us a feat instead of giving one, but also gets us Improved Uncanny Dodge)

[Novawurmson]

Now that I think about it, would straight Vivisectionist be a better build?

[grarrrg]

Now that I think about it, would straight Vivisectionist be a better build?
For Sneak Attack/combat-Rogue, yes.
But you only have 4/level skills, you WILL run out of useful Discoveries, and you don't get Trapfinding, or any of the other Rogue-ish abilities.
Stacking Vivi with Internal Alchemist can get you Uncanny Dodge, and adds some feats you can take as Discoveries.



The following are some alternative, simplified builds, feel free to imagine your own PrC's inserted.

Alternate build 1: SNEAK ATTACK! (combat focused non-Rogue)
Alchemist>Vivisectionist 12/Bard>Archaeologist 8
Alchemist gets 6d6 Sneak. For discoveries, you want Bleeding Critical, Vestigal Arms x2, Tentacle, Crippling Strike, and...whatever.
Bard gives us Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and 2 Rogue Talents.
Step 1: Take the feat Multi-Weapon Fighting
Step 2: SNEAK ATTACK!
Step 3: Insane amounts of damage as _5_ Sneak Attacks land.

Alternate Build 2: SKILLS! (non-combat focused non-Rogue)
Bard or Ranger 5/Pathfinder Delver 5-10/Pathfinder Chronicler 5-10
Bard/Ranger gets 6/level skills
Delver/Chronicler are both non-combat focused, heavily Skill focused. Take your pick of how many levels of each. Delver gains Trapfinding at level 1.

[CTrees]

Now that I think about it, would straight Vivisectionist be a better build?

Equal sneak damage to a rogue, slightly more skill points (if using the favored class bonus for them), and all the alchemist goodies up to the capstone? Probably better, yes. A two level ranger dip for trapfinding wouldn't be a terrible idea while trying to build a non-rogue rogue. This is actually a rather fun mental exercise; must give it some thought when I get a moment.

EDIT: Currently working off a base of Alchemist(vivisectionist)9/Ranger(Trapper)1/Master Spy10. That's 9d6 sneak attack damage, trapfinding, a fair portion more skills/class skills, martial weapon and medium armor proficiencies, and a wonderful selection of class features to really help play the social rogue, while compensating for lower skill investment. Base saves (assuming you're not going with fractional saves) are +11/+13/+8, which really isn't terrible. Also, several discoveries, and a mutagen, but not enough discoveries to have run out of the worthwhile ones. BAB is unfortunately only +14 at lvl20, HP is only a hair better than a normal rogue, and there are some other weaknesses, but it actually looks like a somewhat fun build to play.

[grarrrg]

Oh, how I wish Shackles Pirate wasn't so danged "ship"-y.
Practically EVERY class feature is "boats" or "swamps".
I could see maybe a 3 level dip being useful. You get 3 levels of 8/level skills, 1d6 Sneak, and Quick Appraise. After that....bleh.



...slightly more skill points (if using the favored class bonus for them), and all the alchemist

??You cannot have more skills as an Alchemist (4/level) than as a (similarly built) Rogue (8/level).

[CTrees]

Oh, how I wish Shackles Pirate wasn't so danged "ship"-y.
Practically EVERY class feature is "boats" or "swamps".
I could see maybe a 3 level dip being useful. You get 3 levels of 8/level skills, 1d6 Sneak, and Quick Appraise. After that....bleh.




??You cannot have more skills as an Alchemist (4/level) than as a (similarly built) Rogue (8/level).

No, not more skills than a rogue - more skills than the OP's initial build. The OP build works out to 20xInt bonus+88+favored class bonus, or 20xInt Bonus +96, if playing a half-elf and tagging ranger and alchemist as favored classes. A straight alchemist would have a max of 20xInt bonus+80+20 (favored class) skill points. It's only a four (or six, if not playing half-elf) point difference, but that's why I said, "slightly."