[3.5] Gestalt Optimization

[rmg22893]

One of our players has decided to start a Gestalt campaign at level 1; he has challenged myself and another experienced player in the group to break our characters as much as possible, because he is going to make the campaign diabolically difficult in turn. As such, I wanted to hear opinions on the most powerful Gestalt combos. I don't care if its a spellcasting-based class or weapon-based; I have ample experience with both.

I was thinking either Druid/Monk or Druid/Swordsage, depending on if he allows Tome of Battle or not. Opinions on other options I may have overlooked?

He has not posted book restrictions yet, but I'm assuming all core books and expansions, but I don't think he'll be allowing region-specific books like ECS and PGtF, etc.

UPDATE: Core books and Complete books only :(

[gkathellar]

Wait ... no limits? None? He's encouraging you to break the game?

Well, then you should oblige him. :smallamused:

Okay, so the easy way to do this is a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10//Swordsage 15-16/Warshaper 4-5. The slightly more complicated way to do this is a Spell-to-Power Erudite 20//Factotum 8/Swiftblade 10/Who Cares Warblade or Whatever I Guess 2.

[rmg22893]

Wait ... no limits? None? He's encouraging you to break the game?

Well, then you should oblige him. :smallamused:

Okay, so the easy way to do this is a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10//Swordsage 15-16/Warshaper 4-5. The slightly more complicated way to do this is a Spell-to-Power Erudite 20//Factotum 8/Swiftblade 10/Who Cares Warblade or Whatever I Guess 2.

Yep. We've just been subverting the DM and sneaking in broken class combos, so he's allowing us almost complete freedom, but will make the campaign ridiculously difficult in turn. It will be awesome.

[gkathellar]

Mmm. Well. I wrote this up for another thread, and it's not a gestalt build ... but if you throw in 20 levels of psionic artificier, it'll achieve truly stupid levels of power.

Taste the Rainbow
Requires Taint rules and flaws as written. Playable 1-20, although the first 2 levels are going to be rough due to a really low Constitution.
True neutral Hellbred (Soul) —> at level 3, become Necropolitan
Dread Necromancer 1/Wizard 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Contemplative 1

Ability Scores: 28 point-buy
Str 10, Dex 12, Con 4 -> —, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 20 -> 25 (once Necropolitan: Taint = Charisma/2+1)

Necropolitan Ritual Costs: 3,000 gold pieces, 2,000+ experience if performed between levels 3-4.

Levelling
Level 1: DN 1
Level 2: Wizard 1
Level 3a: DN 2
— Perform Necropolitan ritual ASAP, losing level 3, gaining the undead Type and moderate taint —
Level 3b: Rainbow Servant 1
Level 4: Rainbow Servant 2
Level 5: Rainbow Servant 3
Level 6: Rainbow Servant 4
Level 7: Rainbow Servant 5
Level 8: Rainbow Servant 6 — Charisma hits 22, and you gain severe taint.
Level 9: Rainbow Servant 7
Level 10: Rainbow Servant 8
Level 11: Rainbow Servant 9
Level 12: Rainbow Servant 10
Level 13: IotSV 1
Level 14: IotSV 2
Level 15: IotSV 3
Level 16: IotSV 4
Level 17: IotSV 5
Level 18: IotSV 6
Level 19: IotSV 7
Level 20: Contemplative 1

Flaws
Pathetic: Constitution
Noncombatant

Feats
1 (Hellbred): Devil's Favor — Dark Chaos Shuffled at level 15 for Alternative Spell Source
1: Versatile Spellcaster
1 (Flaw): Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
1 (Flaw): Extend Spell
2 (Moderate Taint): Eldritch Corruption
2 (Wizard): Improved Initiative — Dark Chaos Shuffled at level 19 for Practiced Spellcaster.
3: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
6: Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
8 (Severe Taint): Persistent Spell
9: Invisible Spell
12: DMM-Persist
15: Craft Contingent Spell
18: Mindsight
20 (Time Domain): Improved Initiative

So, what has he got?
— Spontaneous casting with: all dread necromancer spells, all cleric spells (including evil spells even if we move up to a good alignment), and any wizard spells we can acquire (though only through Versatile Spellcaster in this last case).
— Air, Good, Law and Time Domain spells, easing some of the burden of Versatile Spellcaster.
— DMM: Persist + Alternative Spell Source = nearly limitless 24-hour buffs.
— Persistent Arcane Spellsurge + Invisible Spell = Permanent, no-cost Quicken Spell.
— 100-foot Telepathy w/Mindsight, 120-foot magic-proof darkvision.
— A pure IotSV's flawless defense, including immunity to Antimagic Field.
— Craft Contingent Spell.
— Undead immunities (and weaknesses).
— Detect Thoughts at will.
— Charnel Touch + Undead for free healing.
— Reasonably good social skills.
— High Charisma reduces nightstick dependence.

What can he do?

A lot of stuff. Anything a DMM-Persist Cleric can do, he can do better — and anything a DMM-Quicken cleric can do, he can do much better. Anything a baseline wizard can do, he can do quickened, without preparation and with DMM-Persist. He has an IotSV's standard level of total invulnerability, and their standard utility at dispelling. He has Mindsight out to 100 feet. He's undead, which gives him a lot of immunities and a small set of weaknesses. He has Craft Contingent Spell, which means no one will ever get the jump on him. A minor point, but he can heal himself slowly but infinitely. And he does all of this with a CL of 20 and spell levels coming in at the same pace as a wizard throughout his development.

What can't he do?

He's not a mailman, or a Cindy build: he's the epitomized Batman wizard, but he lacks the specialized power of a specialized build. He also can't keep going all day: Versatile Spellcaster can eat through spell slots fairly quickly, so he has to be economical about his use of wizard spells (though he doesn't have to waste any on buffs — Persistent Spell handles that angle). There are also some druid spells he misses out on.

He also doesn't have leadership, so he won't be able to get a Cheater of Mystra cohort. How awful.

How can he be adapted?

His race can be changed, as can his Contemplative level — although they go together, because you'll want to grab Mindbender if you can't get Hellbred telepathy. Illumian is an acceptable choice, and with it you can substitute Eldritch Corruption and Practiced Spellcaster for Naenhoon Word and Heighten Spell (which ultimately doesn't save you any feats, since you lose the ability to DCS Devil's Favor and miss out on the Time Domain).

Alternately, one could switch Contemplative for Sacred Exorcist and Dread Necromancer for Beguiler. This gives you a few more skills, and makes your spellcasting Int-based. Ultimately, you don't get much.

Consecrated Spell might be an okay substitute for Invisible Spell, since the Good domain gives him a +1 to CL on all Good spells, but it costs your overall.

You can drop Time for another domain of your choice (Transformation is a good one) to ease your spell burden in other ways. This costs you Improved Initiative, but w/ever.

Finally, if you have a cleric in your party willing to cast Desecrate on an evil altar, and you become a Necropolitan right next to it, you'll get +2 hp per level. I know, totally game-breaking. Woo.

Required Items
— A bunch of Nightsticks.
— Charisma boosters.
— Spells and spellbooks.
— Things that increase spell/day.

[Randomguy]

What is it with everyone using dread necro to get into rainbowservant? Doesn't beguiler work better?

For ubbercasting:
Wizard 5/incantrix 10/Dweomkeeper 5//Beguiler 5/Rainbow servant 10/Beguiler 5.

Then there's:
Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10//Any Class 3/Swordsage 2/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10.

The any class part also leaves room for some LA, so you can take a race that gets you con and wis bonuses if you like.

[gkathellar]

What is it with everyone using dread necro to get into rainbowservant? Doesn't beguiler work better?

Rebuke Undead is the main attraction. Normally, Beguiler is preferable for a better spell list, but this guy already gets all wizard spells, so Rebuke Undead wins out.

[Lateral]

...Umm, at level 1, it's very hard to really cheese it up. You can build for later, but even in Gestalt you're still a squishy 1st-level PC.

[rmg22893]

...Umm, at level 1, it's very hard to really cheese it up. You can build for later, but even in Gestalt you're still a squishy 1st-level PC.

Yeah, I know that haha. I just want to be on the path to awesomeness right from the get-go.

[enderlord99]

Pun-pun...
...

...


...

...

...
...You said "any".

[legomaster00156]

Pun-Pun. Make Pun-Pun. It will break the game so fast that your DM will weep in the corner. :smallamused:

Now, if you don't want to reduce your DM to a puddle of tears, I can't help you much, I'm afraid. I'm not a strong optimizer, but I hear Druid/Planar Shepherd is pretty much the second-most broken combination in existence.

Edit: Swordsage'd! :smallmad:

[gkathellar]

For ubbercasting:
Wizard 5/incantrix 10/Dweomkeeper 5//Beguiler 5/Rainbow servant 10/Beguiler 5.

Then there's:
Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10//Any Class 3/Swordsage 2/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10.

Neither of these builds are legal. You can only take one PrC at a time in gestalt.

[rmg22893]

Wow, some of these take a lot of multiclassing lol

[Douglas]

Is stacking Nightsticks allowed? If so, go Crusader/Master of Nine on one side and DMM (Persist) Clericzilla on the other (with a Swordsage dip on one or the other side to qualify for MoN). You'll be pretty damn close to unkillable, and with a really nasty beatstick offense too.

If Nightstick stacking isn't allowed, then a true Clericzilla sadly requires too many feats spent on Extra Turning to have enough to spare for Master of Nine prereqs.

[herrhauptmann]

I think a factotum would work well on the otherside of this build. It doesn't really take up a lot of your feats, and it works well at helping you wreck action economy.
Then again, factotum is the standard choice for most gestalt characters. Even those without a high int.

Have you thought of using the flaw murky-eyed or shaky?
Also, if I as DM knew you were going to do Pathetic:Con, then quickly ditch the low con score, giving you essentially no flaw, I think I'd nix that. But since the OP asked for a character that would break the game wide open...

Mmm. Well. I wrote this up for another thread, and it's not a gestalt build ... but if you throw in 20 levels of psionic artificier, it'll achieve truly stupid levels of power.

Taste the Rainbow
Requires Taint rules and flaws as written. Playable 1-20, although the first 2 levels are going to be rough due to a really low Constitution.
True neutral Hellbred (Soul) —> at level 3, become Necropolitan
Dread Necromancer 1/Wizard 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Contemplative 1

Ability Scores: 28 point-buy
Str 10, Dex 12, Con 4 -> —, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 20 -> 25 (once Necropolitan: Taint = Charisma/2+1)

Necropolitan Ritual Costs: 3,000 gold pieces, 2,000+ experience if performed between levels 3-4.

Levelling
Level 1: DN 1
Level 2: Wizard 1
Level 3a: DN 2
— Perform Necropolitan ritual ASAP, losing level 3, gaining the undead Type and moderate taint —
Level 3b: Rainbow Servant 1
Level 4: Rainbow Servant 2
Level 5: Rainbow Servant 3
Level 6: Rainbow Servant 4
Level 7: Rainbow Servant 5
Level 8: Rainbow Servant 6 — Charisma hits 22, and you gain severe taint.
Level 9: Rainbow Servant 7
Level 10: Rainbow Servant 8
Level 11: Rainbow Servant 9
Level 12: Rainbow Servant 10
Level 13: IotSV 1
Level 14: IotSV 2
Level 15: IotSV 3
Level 16: IotSV 4
Level 17: IotSV 5
Level 18: IotSV 6
Level 19: IotSV 7
Level 20: Contemplative 1

Flaws
Pathetic: Constitution
Noncombatant

Feats
1 (Hellbred): Devil's Favor — Dark Chaos Shuffled at level 15 for Alternative Spell Source
1: Versatile Spellcaster
1 (Flaw): Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
1 (Flaw): Extend Spell
2 (Moderate Taint): Eldritch Corruption
2 (Wizard): Improved Initiative — Dark Chaos Shuffled at level 19 for Practiced Spellcaster.
3: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
6: Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
8 (Severe Taint): Persistent Spell
9: Invisible Spell
12: DMM-Persist
15: Craft Contingent Spell
18: Mindsight
20 (Time Domain): Improved Initiative

So, what has he got?
— Spontaneous casting with: all dread necromancer spells, all cleric spells (including evil spells even if we move up to a good alignment), and any wizard spells we can acquire (though only through Versatile Spellcaster in this last case).
— Air, Good, Law and Time Domain spells, easing some of the burden of Versatile Spellcaster.
— DMM: Persist + Alternative Spell Source = nearly limitless 24-hour buffs.
— Persistent Arcane Spellsurge + Invisible Spell = Permanent, no-cost Quicken Spell.
— 100-foot Telepathy w/Mindsight, 120-foot magic-proof darkvision.
— A pure IotSV's flawless defense, including immunity to Antimagic Field.
— Craft Contingent Spell.
— Undead immunities (and weaknesses).
— Detect Thoughts at will.
— Charnel Touch + Undead for free healing.
— Reasonably good social skills.
— High Charisma reduces nightstick dependence.

What can he do?

A lot of stuff. Anything a DMM-Persist Cleric can do, he can do better — and anything a DMM-Quicken cleric can do, he can do much better. Anything a baseline wizard can do, he can do quickened, without preparation and with DMM-Persist. He has an IotSV's standard level of total invulnerability, and their standard utility at dispelling. He has Mindsight out to 100 feet. He's undead, which gives him a lot of immunities and a small set of weaknesses. He has Craft Contingent Spell, which means no one will ever get the jump on him. A minor point, but he can heal himself slowly but infinitely. And he does all of this with a CL of 20 and spell levels coming in at the same pace as a wizard throughout his development.

What can't he do?

He's not a mailman, or a Cindy build: he's the epitomized Batman wizard, but he lacks the specialized power of a specialized build. He also can't keep going all day: Versatile Spellcaster can eat through spell slots fairly quickly, so he has to be economical about his use of wizard spells (though he doesn't have to waste any on buffs — Persistent Spell handles that angle). There are also some druid spells he misses out on.

He also doesn't have leadership, so he won't be able to get a Cheater of Mystra cohort. How awful.

How can he be adapted?

His race can be changed, as can his Contemplative level — although they go together, because you'll want to grab Mindbender if you can't get Hellbred telepathy. Illumian is an acceptable choice, and with it you can substitute Eldritch Corruption and Practiced Spellcaster for Naenhoon Word and Heighten Spell (which ultimately doesn't save you any feats, since you lose the ability to DCS Devil's Favor and miss out on the Time Domain).

Alternately, one could switch Contemplative for Sacred Exorcist and Dread Necromancer for Beguiler. This gives you a few more skills, and makes your spellcasting Int-based. Ultimately, you don't get much.

Consecrated Spell might be an okay substitute for Invisible Spell, since the Good domain gives him a +1 to CL on all Good spells, but it costs your overall.

You can drop Time for another domain of your choice (Transformation is a good one) to ease your spell burden in other ways. This costs you Improved Initiative, but w/ever.

Finally, if you have a cleric in your party willing to cast Desecrate on an evil altar, and you become a Necropolitan right next to it, you'll get +2 hp per level. I know, totally game-breaking. Woo.

Required Items
— A bunch of Nightsticks.
— Charisma boosters.
— Spells and spellbooks.
— Things that increase spell/day.

[rmg22893]

I can only use core books and the Complete books...oh well.

[golem1972]

What's included in core, the base three or srd?

If the srd is included (basically it's the phb, dmg, and mm1 + xph and unearthed arcana):
Abrupt Jaunt conjurer with precocious apprentice and fiery burst // (passive side) something with skills, hit points, ac, or other benefits.

Without srd:
Favored soul / sorcadin
Fighter / cleric + prc (codzilla with fighter feats)
Druid / monk + melee class ( " ")
Batman wizard / ranger (swifthunter?)
Mailman / Swifthunter
Artificer / incantatrix... Sorry, you said core.

In other words, pick a strong to broken Full caster build and add other classes to the gestalt side to cover your weaknesses (hp, ac, saves, skills, etc.) or enhance your build goals, ie a melee focused cleric with full bab, more hp, and fighter feats / charisma to saves / wis to ac / rage / or whatever else.

[Psyren]

Psionic Artificer 20 // Warlock 11/Commoner 9 can create any non-artifact item in the game, and weave them into his baskets.'

I know these are outside the allowed sources, but it's one of the "funner" gestalt builds for me.

[Tyndmyr]

Human Human Paragon1/Wizard x/Mindbender 1/Tainted Scholar/Iot7V//Wizard 1/Warblade 1/Factotum 9/Human Paragon 2(can indulge in non casting progressing stuff on main side if desired)/ Whatever 8

Also, go necropolitan after human paragon. Troll blooded is a reccomended feat at level 1. So is Mindsight, at six.

Now, you're immune to a giant pile of things, have extra actions per round from factotum, have a giant pile of skill points, have mindsight 100 feet, and have a ridiculous amount of no buttons. Also, your quantity and quality of spells are through the roof. The DCs will be...as high as you want them.

In addition, you have a pretty good amount of build flexibility. You really only need one level in Tainted Scholar, though more isn't strictly bad. IoT7V you'll take all the way, and you can splash around plenty of really any class on the other side. You could easily fit in a second set of nines with Ur-Priest if desired*. Exact order of the second side is pretty fluid as well. Drop the Warblade in on a dead BaB level for the primary side if not using partial bab. Make sure the wizard level fills the dead caster level for human paragon. The rest can go however you need.

*You'll have the qualifications with ease from your amount of skills and Mindbender 1 handles the fort save requirement, so that's not even a worry. It does eat a few feats, but meh.

[Psyren]

Also, go necropolitan after human paragon. Troll blooded is a reccomended feat at level 1. So is Mindsight, at six.

Troll-blooded Necropolitan? Won't you lose the regen along with your Con score?

[Tyndmyr]

Troll-blooded Necropolitan? Won't you lose the regen along with your Con score?

Hmm, good point. You lose it....but it's probably still worth it to go necro. The synergy with tainted casting is pretty high, and the immunity list is pretty great as well.

Still, troll blooded can get you through the early levels, when the gestalt power hasn't gotten crazy yet, and you can always chaos shuffle it out later.

Possible option for low levels: Half dragon on the non PRC side. The 3 LA is less critical for this build, the additional energy immunity is nice, and the pile of stats is always handy. It's not ridiculously awesome, but it's not terrible either.

[kestrel404]

You want broken? Try the Multicaster.

Multicaster takes advantage of multiple-spellcasting progression classes to get as many spell/day as possible. With only core + completes, the best build for this is:

Wizard 1 Spell Thief 1
Wizard 2 Cleric 1
Wizard 3 Cleric 2
Wizard 4 Cleric 3
Mystic Theurge 1 Spell Thief 2
Mystic Theurge 2 Bard 1
Mystic Theurge 3 Bard 2
Mystic Theurge 4 Bard 3
Mystic Theurge 5 Bard 4
Mystic Theurge 6 Ultimate Magus 1
Fochlucan Lyrist 1 Sublime Chord 1
Fochlucan Lyrist 2 Ultimate Magus 2
Fochlucan Lyrist 3 Ultimate Magus 3
Fochlucan Lyrist 4 Ultimate Magus 4
Fochlucan Lyrist 5 Ultimate Magus 5
Fochlucan Lyrist 6 Ultimate Magus 6
Fochlucan Lyrist 7 Ultimate Magus 7
Fochlucan Lyrist 8 Ultimate Magus 8
Fochlucan Lyrist 9 Ultimate Magus 9
Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Ultimate Magus 10

You get 17 BAB (remember, BAB is always fractional for Gestalt), Wizard 20/Cleric 19/Bard 12/Sublime Chord 10 spellcasting - which amounts to triple 9th level spells (Wizard, Cleric & SC) + a caster level of 60! for all arcane spells (assuming you take the Master Spellthief feat, which combined with Sublime Chord's Caster Level oddities means you double your Caster Level, which would have been 30 at 20th level otherwise).

You will need an 18 starting int and Int (with human bonus skill points, you'll barely have enough, plan skills in advance), plus Int, Wis and Cha or at least 19 each by the end of the build.

However, the good news is that your only Feat taxes are for ultimate magus, which requires metamagic feats - which is no hardship at all, since you can use UM to let you burn spell slots (you have a ridiculously large number of these) for free metamagic!!

[Tyndmyr]

That is...pretty weak for gestalt, and also not a legal build.

PrCs on one side only.

If you want multi-casting, you want sublime chord and/or Ur priest.

Note additionally that since my previous build has arbitrarily many spell slots, it still wins.

[Lucid]

This one also uses Races of Stone and UA, not overly powerful but should be able to hold it's own.

Race: Dream Dwarf
Druid 20//
(Bear Totem) Barbarian 3/(Overwhelming Attack) Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Deepwarden 2/Warshaper 5/X 5

If you can ignore alignment restrictions you could add in 2 levels of Serenity Paladin for wisdom to saves. And of course if ToB is allowed you should add Swordsage, if only for the Diamond Mind save replacers.

Core+Completes only build

Druid 20//Barbarian 1/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 7

[kestrel404]

Note additionally that since my previous build has arbitrarily many spell slots, it still wins.

Your build also fails in that the available sources are Core+Completes only - so no factotum, warblade, tainted scholor, etc. It's also pretty much unplayable before it goes critical.

However, since I just re-read the gestalt rules and noted that PrC on one side only is specified there (I always thought that was a house rule...), I'll take your advice and go Ur-priest/Sublime Chord:

Wizard 1/Spell Thief 1
Wizard 2/Human Paragon 1
Human Paragon 2/Bard 1
Human Paragon 3/Warlock 1
Wizard 3/War Mage 1
Wizard 4/Ur-priest 1
Wizard 5/Ur-priest 2
Mystic Theurge 1/Sorceror 1
Mystic Theurge 2/Wu-Jen 1
Mystic Theurge 3/Spell Thief 2
Sublime Chord 1/Wizard 6
Mystic Theurge 4/Wizard 7
Mystic Theurge 5/Wizard 8
Mystic Theurge 6/Wizard 9
Fochlucan Lyrist 1/Wizard 10
Fochlucan Lyrist 2/Wizard 11
Fochlucan Lyrist 3/Wizard 12
Fochlucan Lyrist 4/Wizard 13
Fochlucan Lyrist 5/Wizard 14
Fochlucan Lyrist 6/Wizard 15

So, this one is Core + Completes only, with PrC on only one side. You get Wizard 20 + Urpriest 10 + Sublime Chord 10 casting, your Arcane caster level is 60 and your ur-priest caster level is 235. Note that as a warlock with a CL of 60, you do 23d6 damage with a standard eldritch blast! Not that you need to bother with direct damage abilities, but it's worth noting.

Fochlucan Lyrist is delayed for so long primarily because getting the skill points together to get into Sublime Chord, FL and Ur-priest (which have mostly-contradictory and rather demanding skill requirements) is pretty tough.

[SamBurke]

Pun-pun...
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...

...

...
...You said "any".

Problem? Planar differences.

Let's say the GM has changed up the cosmology of the planes (and many do, if it's a homebrew world). BOOM! Either you're going to fail, or you could attract the attention of some very, very, powerful people.

That said, Elven Generalist/Transmutation Domain Wizard, Hummingbird Familiar, Collegiate Wizard, Improved Initiative should get you going first no matter what, with a ridiculous amount of spells/day, and some other goodies. From there, you can do whatever you like, but that's a great first level build.

[gkathellar]

your ur-priest caster level is 235.

Okay, explain that one for me? I'm AFB.

[hushblade]

I don't see how he can get more than 40 for any of his caster levels even with cheesy(and simply false) interpretations of gestalt rules, clearly there's some multiplication going on here...

[gkathellar]

I'm not clear on how he's getting above 32, now that I look at it. Sublime Chord CL 10 + Wizard CL 20 + Master Spellthief 2 = CL 32 for all arcane spells.

Also, how is he taking levels in all those Dual Progression classes? Those are banned in gestalt.

[kestrel404]

Okay, explain that one for me? I'm AFB.

Ur-priest's caster level is equal to: Ur-Priest Level + 1/2 of (total Effective Arcane Caster Levels)

Sublime Chord states that your Effective Caster Level for ALL arcane classes is equal to Sublime Chord levels + Caster Level of one other chosen arcane casting class (Wizard).

The Master Spellthief feat states that you add your Spellthief Caster level to the Effective Caster Level of all other classes (I add this only once, otherwise you get an infinite loop and that's always really dodgy).

So Sublime Chord ECL is equal to Wizard ECL (20) + Sublime Chord Levels (10). This sets Spelltheif ECL to 30. That value is added to every other ECL giving you:
Wizard ECL: 60
Sublime Chord ECL: 60
Bard ECL: 60
Warlock ECL: 60
War Mage ECL: 60
Wu-Jen ECL: 60
Sorceror ECL: 60
Spelltheif ECL: 30
Total Arcane ECL: 450
Ur-Priest ECL: Ur-priest level (10) + Total Arcane ECL (450)/2 = 235

[herrhauptmann]

I'm not clear on how he's getting above 32, now that I look at it. Sublime Chord CL 10 + Wizard CL 20 + Master Spellthief 2 = CL 32 for all arcane spells.

Also, how is he taking levels in all those Dual Progression classes? Those are banned in gestalt.

It's suggested that if dual progression is allowed, that you have to meet the prereqs on one side of the build:
wiz/Urpriest/Mystic THeurge//fighter would be legal
wiz5/Mystic Theurge1//Cleric5/ftr1 would be illegal

[gkathellar]

Ur-priest's caster level is equal to: Ur-Priest Level + 1/2 of (total Effective Arcane Caster Levels)

Sublime Chord states that your Effective Caster Level for ALL arcane classes is equal to Sublime Chord levels + Caster Level of one other chosen arcane casting class (Wizard).

The Master Spellthief feat states that you add your Spellthief Caster level to the Effective Caster Level of all other classes (I add this only once, otherwise you get an infinite loop and that's always really dodgy).

So Sublime Chord ECL is equal to Wizard ECL (20) + Sublime Chord Levels (10). This sets Spelltheif ECL to 30. That value is added to every other ECL giving you:
Wizard ECL: 60
Sublime Chord ECL: 60
Bard ECL: 60
Warlock ECL: 60
War Mage ECL: 60
Wu-Jen ECL: 60
Sorceror ECL: 60
Spelltheif ECL: 30
Total Arcane ECL: 450
Ur-Priest ECL: Ur-priest level (10) + Total Arcane ECL (450)/2 = 235

A) Sublime Chord overrides Master Spellthief entirely.
B) Master Spellthief only counts actual spellthief levels, not spellthief CL.

[kestrel404]

I'm not clear on how he's getting above 32, now that I look at it. Sublime Chord CL 10 + Wizard CL 20 + Master Spellthief 2 = CL 32 for all arcane spells.

Also, how is he taking levels in all those Dual Progression classes? Those are banned in gestalt.


Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

You'll note that these are written as suggestions to prevent things from becoming overly complicated or unbalanced. The GM is ASKING FOR CHEESE according to the OP. Hence I'm assuming these suggestions are waived.


A) Sublime Chord overrides Master Spellthief entirely.
B) Master Spellthief only counts actual spellthief levels, not spellthief CL.

Shrug, that's one interpretation of RAW. I'm not going to bother arguing. Having Arcane Caster level of 30/Ur-priest caster level of 130 should still be sufficient.

The important bit is that the build is legal, playable 1-20, and well above tier 1.

[hushblade]

"to determine the caster level of an urpriest add the characters urpriest levels to one half of her levels in any other spell casting class"

So theoretically, you could get an urpriest caster level of 25 if you were to go 10 levels in urpriest and 30 in other casting classes. it says nothing of using other caster levels(or worse, effective caster levels) to determine urpriest's caster level.

[rmg22893]

I have determined that it is physically impossible for me to take both rainbow servant and initiate of the sevenfold veil without taking two PrCs at the same time, so I wanted to know what you guys think of Druid 20 // Wizard 13/IotSV 7 ? Anyone got some ideas to improve on that? I considered cleric instead of druid, but I like wildshaping more :P

[Saviour]

Having gone Druid//Sorcerer from level 3, I can tell you that combination is awesome. Wizzie is stronger than Sorc, I suppose, but either one is gold. Nature theme demands Sorc goes into Geomancer. Academic Priest or Charismatic Priest with Geomancer will make you SAD for charisma or intelligence. At level ten, let Druid be passive, and wildshaped into a Cave Anklysaurous and with all your buffs up you can have an AC over 40 without even trying. (Plus, one level of sacred exorcist somewhere in there will let you persist arcane spells, if you go sorcerer.)

But yeah, Druid//anything. Kill them all with fire and claws.

[rmg22893]

Okay, here's what I'm doing:

01 Druid 1 | Wizard 1
02 Druid 2 | Wizard 2
03 Druid 3 | Wizard 3
04 Druid 4 | Geomancer 1 (Wiz)
05 Druid 5 | Geomancer 2 (Wiz)
06 Druid 6 | Geomancer 3 (Wiz)
07 Druid 7 | Geomancer 4 (Wiz)
08 Druid 8 | Geomancer 5 (Wiz)
09 Druid 9 | Geomancer 6 (Wiz)
10 Druid 10 | IotSV 1
11 Druid 11 | IotSV 2
12 Druid 12 | IotSV 3
13 Druid 13 | IotSV 4
14 Druid 14 | IotSV 5
15 Druid 15 | IotSV 6
16 Druid 16 | IotSV 7
17 Druid 17 | Geomancer 7 (Wiz)
18 Druid 18 | Geomancer 8 (Wiz)
19 Druid 19 | Geomancer 9 (Wiz)
20 Druid 20 | Geomancer 10 (Wiz)

If you see any problems with this, please tell me.

What this gets me:
-d8 hit die at all levels, as opposed to the Wizard's awful d4
-full Wildshaping madness
-the ability to cast all of my spells with no spell failure chance (dragonhide wilding breastplate, here I come)
-Save DCs will be all based off of my highest casting stat, reducing the effects of MAD.
-all of the nice little bonuses from Geomancer Drift
-IotSV quasi-invulnerability and cheesiness
-full spellcasting progression for both Druid AND Wizard

Now, here's a problem. For ability scores, I get 18, 16, 14, 12, and two 10s. My important stats are Wis, Int, and Con. What should go where...eventually it won't really matter which is higher other than for bonus spells, but I still want to have as many spells as possible for super cheesiness.

[kestrel404]

Nice Build! Geomancer is always fun in gestalt. I suppose full spellcasting in Wizard and Druid should be enough for anyone. :smallcool:

I'd recommend Int 18, Wis 16, Con 14, Dex 12, Str & Cha 10. Gets you more skill points. You could switch Wis and Con, but I think you'll want the Wis sooner rather than later.

[rmg22893]

Nice Build! Geomancer is always fun in gestalt. I suppose full spellcasting in Wizard and Druid should be enough for anyone. :smallcool:

I'd recommend Int 18, Wis 16, Con 14, Dex 12, Str & Cha 10. Gets you more skill points. You could switch Wis and Con, but I think you'll want the Wis sooner rather than later.

Awesome, thanks! Yeah, I'm looking forward to this campaign. It'll be me, another super-optimizer, and then three or four complete noobz0rs. So me and the other optimizer will probably be soloing everything.

[Randomguy]

Fochlucan Lyrist is delayed for so long primarily because getting the skill points together to get into Sublime Chord, FL and Ur-priest (which have mostly-contradictory and rather demanding skill requirements) is pretty tough.

How did you get into Fochlucan Lyrisist without evasion or speak language (Druidic)?
Also, despite the awesome spell power of the build, you've got three different primary casting classes (Ur-priest, Wizard and Sublime Chord) that all require a different casting stat, making you very MAD. With the caster level shenanigans from this build, uncapped damage dice are awesome, though. Wings of flurry is one example, and I heard there's actually a divine version somewhere, so casting that with urpriest lets you pretty much vaporize anything.

Also, eldritch blast damage isn't determined by caster level, but by warlock level, so you've still got 1d6 eldritch blast.

[Psyren]

How did you get into Fochlucan Lyrisist without evasion or speak language (Druidic)?

Evasion is two feats away; learning Druidic is as easy as mind-raping, dominating, torturing, tricking or otherwise prying it out of an existing druid.



Also, eldritch blast damage isn't determined by caster level, but by warlock level, so you've still got 1d6 eldritch blast.

"+1 caster level" PrCs advance eldritch blast (along with invocations) actually.

[rmg22893]

Well thanks for all the tips and advice, everyone! The first meeting for this campaign is on Thursday...can't wait! :D

[DonDuckie]

I believe the term is "Swordsaged".


Ur-priest's caster level is equal to: Ur-Priest Level + 1/2 of (total Effective Arcane Caster Levels)

Sublime Chord states that your Effective Caster Level for ALL arcane classes is equal to Sublime Chord levels + Caster Level of one other chosen arcane casting class (Wizard).

The Master Spellthief feat states that you add your Spellthief Caster level to the Effective Caster Level of all other classes (I add this only once, otherwise you get an infinite loop and that's always really dodgy).

So Sublime Chord ECL is equal to Wizard ECL (20) + Sublime Chord Levels (10). This sets Spelltheif ECL to 30. That value is added to every other ECL giving you:
Wizard ECL: 60
Sublime Chord ECL: 60
Bard ECL: 60
Warlock ECL: 60
War Mage ECL: 60
Wu-Jen ECL: 60
Sorceror ECL: 60
Spelltheif ECL: 30
Total Arcane ECL: 450
Ur-Priest ECL: Ur-priest level (10) + Total Arcane ECL (450)/2 = 235

I thought so too, after reading the Wish and the Word. But when I read the urpriest entry more closely I noticed it says: "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one -alf of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (bla bla no cleric levels)"

So it doesnt add caster levels. Just levels. At least that's how I interpret it. If I'm wrong please tell me why.

[Wings of Peace]

Your first instinct is going to be to combine two ridiculously strong classes, fight this. In Gestalt the best combinations aren't two powerful things but one powerful thing with something that enhances the first things power exponentially.

Factotum and Generic Warrior are both very strong secondary options because one lets you break the action economy while the other lets you gain an outrageous number of feats.

[rmg22893]

Your first instinct is going to be to combine two ridiculously strong classes, fight this. In Gestalt the best combinations aren't two powerful things but one powerful thing with something that enhances the first things power exponentially.

Factotum and Generic Warrior are both very strong secondary options because one lets you break the action economy while the other lets you gain an outrageous number of feats.

Can't use Factotum, unfortunately. My thought process for Druid//Wizard/Helpful Prestige Classes with full spellcasting progression is that wildshaping overcomes basically all of the physical shortcomings of wizards. This build will allow me to get into melee without being afraid for my life, while flinging both arcane and divine spells left and right. The defensive and utility capabilities of IotSV and Geomancer just complement these.

[Wings of Peace]

Can't use Factotum, unfortunately. My thought process for Druid//Wizard/Helpful Prestige Classes with full spellcasting progression is that wildshaping overcomes basically all of the physical shortcomings of wizards. This build will allow me to get into melee without being afraid for my life, while flinging both arcane and divine spells left and right. The defensive and utility capabilities of IotSV and Geomancer just complement these.

Is your goal to be able to both cast and fight then or do you just want to be able to survive a few rounds in melee if forced into it?

[rmg22893]

Is your goal to be able to both cast and fight then or do you just want to be able to survive a few rounds in melee if forced into it?

My goals were to mainly be a spellcaster, but to be able to effectively fight in melee if forced into it/prevented from using spells. I already have a build:

01 Druid 1 | Wizard 1
02 Druid 2 | Wizard 2
03 Druid 3 | Wizard 3
04 Druid 4 | Geomancer 1 (Wiz)
05 Druid 5 | Geomancer 2 (Wiz)
06 Druid 6 | Geomancer 3 (Wiz)
07 Druid 7 | Geomancer 4 (Wiz)
08 Druid 8 | Geomancer 5 (Wiz)
09 Druid 9 | Geomancer 6 (Wiz)
10 Druid 10 | IotSV 1
11 Druid 11 | IotSV 2
12 Druid 12 | IotSV 3
13 Druid 13 | IotSV 4
14 Druid 14 | IotSV 5
15 Druid 15 | IotSV 6
16 Druid 16 | IotSV 7
17 Druid 17 | Geomancer 7 (Wiz)
18 Druid 18 | Geomancer 8 (Wiz)
19 Druid 19 | Geomancer 9 (Wiz)
20 Druid 20 | Geomancer 10 (Wiz)

This gives me full spellcasting progression of both the druid and wizard, with defensive capabilities of the IotSV, healing, utility, decent hitpoints, etcetera etcetera.

[Wings of Peace]

My goals were to mainly be a spellcaster, but to be able to effectively fight in melee if forced into it/prevented from using spells. I already have a build:

01 Druid 1 | Wizard 1
02 Druid 2 | Wizard 2
03 Druid 3 | Wizard 3
04 Druid 4 | Geomancer 1 (Wiz)
05 Druid 5 | Geomancer 2 (Wiz)
06 Druid 6 | Geomancer 3 (Wiz)
07 Druid 7 | Geomancer 4 (Wiz)
08 Druid 8 | Geomancer 5 (Wiz)
09 Druid 9 | Geomancer 6 (Wiz)
10 Druid 10 | IotSV 1
11 Druid 11 | IotSV 2
12 Druid 12 | IotSV 3
13 Druid 13 | IotSV 4
14 Druid 14 | IotSV 5
15 Druid 15 | IotSV 6
16 Druid 16 | IotSV 7
17 Druid 17 | Geomancer 7 (Wiz)
18 Druid 18 | Geomancer 8 (Wiz)
19 Druid 19 | Geomancer 9 (Wiz)
20 Druid 20 | Geomancer 10 (Wiz)

This gives me full spellcasting progression of both the druid and wizard, with defensive capabilities of the IotSV, healing, utility, decent hitpoints, etcetera etcetera.

I get what IotSV is for, what's Geomancer doing?

[rmg22893]

I get what IotSV is for, what's Geomancer doing?

Geomancer, once raised to tenth level, will allow me to wear any kind of armor without arcane spell failure chance, and it will make my saves dependent on only one attribute, as without it, my Druid's Save DCs will be based on Wisdom, and my Wizard's Save DCs will be based on Int, requiring me to keep both high. With the Geomancer's Spell Versatility feature, both sides' spells will run off of whichever has the higher modifier. It also has some hilarious stuff from Drift, and fit nicely into the wizard side. I mean, I'll be able to wildshape into a flying dire bear covered in feathers with a cat's tail. It's hilarious!

[Wings of Peace]

Geomancer, once raised to tenth level, will allow me to wear any kind of armor without arcane spell failure chance, and it will make my saves dependent on only one attribute, as without it, my Druid's Save DCs will be based on Wisdom, and my Wizard's Save DCs will be based on Int, requiring me to keep both high. With the Geomancer's Spell Versatility feature, both sides' spells will run off of whichever has the higher modifier. It also has some hilarious stuff from Drift, and fit nicely into the wizard side. I mean, I'll be able to wildshape into a flying dire bear covered in feathers with a cat's tail. It's hilarious!

Drift is definately fun. If you're mainly taking it for the easy armor casting though you might find Runesmith from Races of Stone to be a quicker means to your ends. The only hard requirement is that you be a Dwarf.

[rmg22893]

Drift is definately fun. If you're mainly taking it for the easy armor casting though you might find Runesmith from Races of Stone to be a quicker means to your ends. The only hard requirement is that you be a Dwarf.

Unfortunately, the DM is only allowing PHB, DM, MM, and all Complete books. So no Races books or setting-specific books, unfortunately. Otherwise I could have made something a lot more ridiculous :P

[Saviour]

And bushy, green eyebrows! Can't have a wizard geomancer without bushy green eyebrows!

[gkathellar]

Drift is definately fun. If you're mainly taking it for the easy armor casting though you might find Runesmith from Races of Stone to be a quicker means to your ends. The only hard requirement is that you be a Dwarf.

Decreased MAD is the real virtue of a Geomancer, though, and nothing else can replicate that.

[Tyndmyr]

I have determined that it is physically impossible for me to take both rainbow servant and initiate of the sevenfold veil without taking two PrCs at the same time, so I wanted to know what you guys think of Druid 20 // Wizard 13/IotSV 7 ? Anyone got some ideas to improve on that? I considered cleric instead of druid, but I like wildshaping more :P

Human Wizard 4/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 1/MT 6/IotSV 7//Whatever 20

Note that minor early entry for Mindbender is assumed. It's not a hard thing to pull off. Likewise, you'll want Sanctum Spell for early entry to UP. Alternatively, you could ignore early entry to UP in favor of getting turning.

This sacrifices a total of 1 level of wizard casting for level 7 divine spells as per Ur Priest and access to 100 ft telepathy.

The above does not require anything outside of core and completes.

Edit: Honestly, I wouldn't worry about wild shape for melee. That's what polymorph is for. Bampf, I'm a hydra/Gold Dragon. Pwnage time.

[erikun]

Geomancer, once raised to tenth level, will allow me to wear any kind of armor without arcane spell failure chance, and it will make my saves dependent on only one attribute, as without it, my Druid's Save DCs will be based on Wisdom, and my Wizard's Save DCs will be based on Int, requiring me to keep both high. With the Geomancer's Spell Versatility feature, both sides' spells will run off of whichever has the higher modifier. It also has some hilarious stuff from Drift, and fit nicely into the wizard side. I mean, I'll be able to wildshape into a flying dire bear covered in feathers with a cat's tail. It's hilarious!
You only get that at 20th level with your build. Unless you are starting the game at level 20, you will probably never even gain access to that benefit.

If "all the Completes" includes XPH + Complete Psionic, then you could use Cleric//Ardent or Druid//Ardent for some psionics fun.

[rmg22893]

You only get that at 20th level with your build. Unless you are starting the game at level 20, you will probably never even gain access to that benefit.

If "all the Completes" includes XPH + Complete Psionic, then you could use Cleric//Ardent or Druid//Ardent for some psionics fun.

I'll get spell versatility for spell levels 0-5 by level 9, by which point I'll be able to buy twilight armor, anyway. The SAD from Geomancer is just a bonus. Actually, we probably are going to hit 20. We intend to stick with these characters all the way through.

[rmg22893]

Human Wizard 4/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 1/MT 6/IotSV 7//Whatever 20

Note that minor early entry for Mindbender is assumed. It's not a hard thing to pull off. Likewise, you'll want Sanctum Spell for early entry to UP. Alternatively, you could ignore early entry to UP in favor of getting turning.

This sacrifices a total of 1 level of wizard casting for level 7 divine spells as per Ur Priest and access to 100 ft telepathy.

The above does not require anything outside of core and completes.

Edit: Honestly, I wouldn't worry about wild shape for melee. That's what polymorph is for. Bampf, I'm a hydra/Gold Dragon. Pwnage time.

That would be good, except that it uses mystic theurge, which we have disallowed for this campaign.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd probably go with fatespinner, Loremaster, etc instead then. Geomancer is something I've always found to be underwhelming.

Edit: Especially for the armor. That is...a fairly trivial benefit.

[rmg22893]

I'd probably go with fatespinner, Loremaster, etc instead then. Geomancer is something I've always found to be underwhelming.

Edit: Especially for the armor. That is...a fairly trivial benefit.

But the single-attribute save DCs is not.

[Tyndmyr]

But the single-attribute save DCs is not.

You *just* said that was "just a bonus".

Honestly? If I wanted to be SAD, I'd just pick a secondary class(es) that was also int based. Factotum is a common choice, but it's hardly the only one.

If I want a beefy chassis, I'll polymorph into something awesome. Shortage of spell slots should not be a major concern.

[rmg22893]

You *just* said that was "just a bonus".

Honestly? If I wanted to be SAD, I'd just pick a secondary class(es) that was also int based. Factotum is a common choice, but it's hardly the only one.

If I want a beefy chassis, I'll polymorph into something awesome. Shortage of spell slots should not be a major concern.

I often unwittingly contradict myself. It's a bad habit of mine :P the reason I took Geomancer is because I saw no point in further advancing Wizard other than for bonus feats, and I didn't find an appealing prestige class with full spellcasting progression that fit into my build, apart from Geomancer.

Unfortunately, I was also unable to find a good int-based class that would synergize well with wizard whilst using only core books + completes. So I picked Druid for the healz, battlefield control, and wildshape.

[hushblade]

How does UASS synergize with Druid? I'm sure at least the Wis to AC is a nice little boon. Does the unarmed damage make your wildshaped natural attacks as strong as a monk of that size? What maneuvers are useful in wildshape?

[Urpriest]

How does UASS synergize with Druid? I'm sure at least the Wis to AC is a nice little boon. Does the unarmed damage make your wildshaped natural attacks as strong as a monk of that size? What maneuvers are useful in wildshape?

Unarmed attacks are in addition to natural attacks, since natural attacks aren't iterative attacks. And any maneuvers useful out of wildshape are useful in wildshape: a melee combatant is a melee combatant.

[rmg22893]

If only I had access to Tome of Battle in this campaign...