Who knows the locations of which gates?

[Sniffnoy]

Ultimately, all precise knowledge of the locations of the gates comes from two sources: Lord Shojo (via Soon Kim), and Serini's diary. (The general locations are well-known, among those who know about the gates.)

Xykon has the diary, so he (presumably[0]) knows the true locations of both remaining gates. Redcloak probably also knows, while Tsukiko and the others probably don't; she doesn't seem to yet even know about the gates (as of comic 543, anyway), and the others have essentially no reason to know.

The question, then, is who else did Lord Shojo tell? We know he told Roy, which raises the question of who Roy told, but what I mainly wanted to ask is: Who else was present when he told Roy? If he told him inbetween comics 293 and 294, Haley would probably also know (though this is mostly irrelevant; she deliberately decided to stick around Azure City so Durkon and the others could find her, and wasn't going to attempt to stop Xykon with just her and Belkar anyway). It seems whether or not he told him inbetween 293 and 294, he must have at least told him between 378 and 379, since it seems Nale was scrying on the fake location in 698, and that's the only time he would have heard it (since Roy doesn't seem to have told most of the Order himself, as Durkon, V, and Elan all didn't know). Belkar was around then also, though he probably wasn't paying attention, and even if he knew, certainly also wouldn't really care.

Now presumably Nale told Sabine, who told the IFCC, though it's possible he only told them the general location. Nale has also now told Tarquin and Malack, though for all we know he may have omitted the location of Kraagor's gate. (Of course, unlike Xykon, all that any of them know about Girard's is that it's somewhere in Windy Canyon.)

Someone (presumably Roy) must have told Lien or O-Chul the precise location of Kraagor's gate at some point around 671; seems unlikely they've told anyone else. It seems Roy (and Haley, if she knows) has generally avoided telling people more than they need to about this, so they probably don't know anything about the precise location of Girard's gate; of course, if they do, they can only know the fake location.

Eugene presumably also knows what Shojo knew but he's not really relevant.

This does raise the question of why Nale went for Girard's gate rather than Kraagor's, but considering it's Nale, he probably did it specifically so he could gloat over it to Tarquin afterward...

[0]The diary could turn out to be wrong for reasons as yet unrevealed, but this seems unlikely. Henceforth I'm going to assume that the diary has both locations correct, and that Lord Shojo had the correct location for Kraagor's gate.

[Nightforge]

Xykon and Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) both know the locations of the remaining gates, as per the diary. Given the success they've had locating gates in the past, it's a safe assumption that the locations they have for the remaining two gates are correct.

We know that Shojo told Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html) the locations he knew for the remaining gates, one of which we know was incorrect. Given what V says about when this occurred, it is also possible that Eugene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html) and Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html) were present to hear this information as well, though we have no way of knowing for certain.

Regardless, Roy has since informed Haley, Hinjo, O-Chul, and Lien (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) of the locations he knew for the two remaining gates. Given that we've had no word about O-Chul and Lien despite the Order having been in communication with Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html), we can assume the pair have yet to reach the location they have for Kraagor's gate, and so we have no information on whether or not that location is correct.

Nale does not know the locations of the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html), presumably having heard only the general story from Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html). By extension, the IFCC know this much as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). If we assume they haven't gained information from other sources, at most they know as much as Nale does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) about the locations of the remaining gates.

Likewise, Tarquin knows at least as much as Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html), though beyond that we have no idea if he had other relevant knowledge prior to the present situation (even if he didn't know it was relevant yet). Given Tarquin's nature, I decline to assume anything about this.

As far as I am aware of, this is what we know about who knows the locations of the remaining gates.

[Sniffnoy]

Nale does not know the locations of the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html), presumably having heard only the general story from Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html). By extension, the IFCC know this much as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html).

I'm not certain this necessarily follows. Remember, if Nale heard the story from Shojo, he wouldn't know the precise location of Girard's gate either, since he would have heard the fake coordinates.

Though now that you mention it I think it may make a bit more sense than what I suggested. Nale doesn't mention to Tarquin having to the wrong location first, and if Nale knew just where Kraagor's gate was, he could have gone there after setting off the trap, rather than spending months scrying. Also, the scrying sensor could have been someone else (such as one of the Draketooths).

Hm. Not sure what to make of this.

[Boogastreehouse]

Nale could have been scrying on the party, not on the location of the gate. The Order of the Stick never learned to take precautions against scrying (at least not as far as we've seen), so Nale can peek in on them whenever he likes.

Also, just to make the list more complete, you may as well note that Girard or Orin Draketooth know the location of Girard's Gate.

[Nightforge]

I'm not certain this necessarily follows. Remember, if Nale heard the story from Shojo, he wouldn't know the precise location of Girard's gate either, since he would have heard the fake coordinates.


Nale could have been scrying on the party, not on the location of the gate.

We presently have no indication that Nale has ever known the coordinates Soon had for Girard's gate.

When we first saw the scrying spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) in the desert, it wouldn't have been that much of a reach to think it was connected to the trap Girard left (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) nearby, scrying on the area to see what had set it off. Though this would make the delay (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html) between the triggering of the trap and the scrying seem somewhat out of place.

Then it was pointed out that the color of the scrying spell was the same color as Zz'dtri's spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html), and with Zz'dtri's reappearance not long after, the preferable conclusion was that it was instead the Linear Guild scrying on the party, which gained additional weight when Nale mentioned knowing the Order was in the desert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html). But then why wasn't the scrying spell focused on the Order itself?

Now, though, Nale has mentioned that they've been using Zzdtri's divinations for months (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) to search the desert for Girard's gate. With the delay between the trap and the scrying spell and the lack of focus on the Order, I find it most reasonable to assume that the spell was simply part of Zzdtri's search for the gate, and Zz'dtri happening to spot the Order there was lucky coincidence.


Also, just to make the list more complete, you may as well note that Girard or Orin Draketooth know the location of Girard's Gate.

This is a valid point. However, the problem with listing Girard or Orrin (or even Serini Toormuck, for that matter) is that we have little to no evidence either way whether they're alive or not at this point.

While my list above was limited to characters we know are still in play, if we want to be a bit more completionist then we can also safely say that Soon knows locations for some of the gates (though apparently not Girard's gate), though he hasn't been around since the fall of Azure City; likewise Lirian and Dorukan knew the locations of at least some of the gates; Girard and presumably Orrin as well have some knowledge of where the other gates are/were; certainly Serini had knowledge of the locations of all the gates, this being how Xykon knows the locations of the gates.

Beyond this, I'm not sure we can really say who else might have knowledge of the gates. Some of the gods, perhaps, depending on how close of attention they were paying during the Order of the Scribble's campaign to seal the rifts or the fall of Azure City, or if they had noticed the rifts beforehand. But now we're getting into characters who have had very little part in the overall story.

Overall, it's the characters that have interacted with the Order of the Stick that seem to be the ones to follow, as far as knowledge of the gate is concerned. Perhaps we'll be seeing a Draketooth or two before long.

[Ron Miel]

Regardless, Roy has since informed Haley, Hinjo, O-Chul, and Lien (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) of the locations he knew for the two remaining gates.

Why do people think this? Hinjo & O'Chul, both senior members of the Paladins, already knew. Probably Lien, too. Maybe even the junior members knew the gates' locations.

[SmaugTheYounger]

Why do people think this? Hinjo & O'Chul, both senior members of the Paladins, already knew. Probably Lien, too. Maybe even the junior members knew the gates' locations.
505 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html), 5th panel. They did not know because they adhered to Soon's oath. Nightforge already linked to this.

[Ancalagon]

Scrying: Anyone with a Int above 12 gets a roll to detect the scry. If someone was scyring on the Order, Roy, Vaarsuvius, Duron (not very smart, but surly an Int of 12+) and Haley are going to detect it sometimes. Among the four of them, it's likely they detect nearly any attempt someone makes.

Redcloak: Given that Xykon is the guy with the diary who also decrypted it, I'd be far from sure to assume he informed Redcloak. Everyone who has read SoD knows they relationship and given it gives Xykon power over Redcloak to know something and there is no reason to disclose locations of gates they are not going after, it might be Redcloak is not among those who know details.

So far, Xykon seems to be the only one who ever knew the locations of all gates and who so far might be the only one who knows the exact location of Girard's Gate. *yuck*

I find it reasonable to assume the IFCC also informed themselves where those rifts/gates are. We have not been told but given their power and how important those things are, I find it unlikely to assume they do not know.

Not unimportant: A very lot of gods probably know as well.

[Nightforge]

Scrying: Anyone with a Int above 12 gets a roll to detect the scry.

Huh. This is actually the first I've been aware of that (just went and checked it). Interesting.

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Given that Xykon is the guy with the diary who also decrypted it, I'd be far from sure to assume he informed Redcloak.

Xykon and Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) both know the locations of the remaining gates, as per the diary.

Given that Redcloak did the analysis for the remaining gates (on color-coded parchments, no less), it's pretty safe to assume he knows the decoded locations.

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So far, Xykon seems to be the only one who ever knew the locations of all gates

You're forgetting about Serini, whose diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) is the source of Xykon's knowledge of the locations in the first place.

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I find it reasonable to assume the IFCC also informed themselves where those rifts/gates are. We have not been told but given their power and how important those things are, I find it unlikely to assume they do not know.

Both Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) and Qarr (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) have been shown to have the ability to check in with the directors whenever they need to, and Quarr is presently doing just that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html).

If the IFCC knew the locations of the remaining gates, would they have informed the Linear Guild via either Sabine or Qarr, rather than let the Guild spend months searching the desert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)? The question of how much information is being shared between the Linear Guild and the IFCC is why this line was phrased the way it was:


If we assume they haven't gained information from other sources, at most they know as much as Nale does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) about the locations of the remaining gates.

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Not unimportant: A very lot of gods probably know as well.

The gods are a problematic case. We've been told that the surviving original gods know the nature of the rifts and what is/was behind the rifts. We don't know how much knowledge any beings who have ascended to become gods (the Dark One, the elven god of knowledge, etc) have gained on the subject.

Also, the gods we've seen have been portrayed in their few appearances as having a roughly mortal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html) / non-omniscient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) capacity for perceiving the world (except (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) perhaps (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) for Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html)). Given that we don't know how much attention any of the gods were paying when the Order of the Scribble sealed the rifts and built the gates, nor how much they would've found out after the fact, it's nearly impossible to come to a conclusion about how much any given god knows.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

OK, I know Serini put the location of Girard's gate in her diary, but who says she wrote down the correct location?

Girard lied about the location to Soon Kim, why would he bother to give Serini the correct latitude and longitude? Does Serini know how to find the location on her own as well, or was she also dependent on Girard's honesty? :smallamused:

Just something to think about...

[Ravian]

Well Girard specifically stated in the message that Serini has the true coordinates but was sure that Soon wouldn't be able to get them out of her, presumably that would mean Girard at least trusts Serini more than Soon. (not saying a whole much but still) In fact really of all the order of the scribble (except for between Dorukan and Lirran) Serini was probably the least distrusted member.

[Nightforge]

OK, I know Serini put the location of Girard's gate in her diary, but who says she wrote down the correct location?

Girard lied about the location to Soon Kim, why would he bother to give Serini the correct latitude and longitude?

Well Girard specifically stated in the message that Serini has the true coordinates but was sure that Soon wouldn't be able to get them out of her, presumably that would mean Girard at least trusts Serini more than Soon.

As Ravian notes, Girard has stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) that Serini knew the true location of his gate. Serini's diary also has a three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) track record regarding other gates, and most certainly she knew the location of Kraagor's gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). If Girard is to be believed, that's all five gates.

[Nevereatcars]

As Ravian notes, Girard has stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) that Serini knew the true location of his gate. Serini's diary also has a three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) track record regarding other gates, and most certainly she knew the location of Kraagor's gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). If Girard is to be believed, that's all five gates.

Oh, I never thought of that. What if it's not? :smalleek: