A Real Optimizer Doesn't Need Capstones[3.5]

[kulosle]

So my group believes that, besides several dip classes like mindbender, you should stick with classes all the way to the capstone. The discussion went something along the lines of "the capstone is the best level of a PrC and is the only reason to take it." I disagree with this. What is the best build you can make without grabbing the capstone of any class/PrC? For this challenge capstone is defined as the best ability of the class. I'm not sure whether or not this means the telepathy of mind bender or not. My group got off line so we couldn't finish setting down the ground rules. Any ideas?

[JadePhoenix]

A real optimizer plays what fits his game without ruining anyone else's fun.

[Wiggins]

Like a Necromancer build that switches as soon as it gets a bonus to summoned or created creatures?

Progression
Wizard (Necromancer, Enhanced Undead) 1,
Cleric (Deathbound domain) 3,
Dread Necromancer 1,
Ultimate Magus 1,
Dread Necromancer 2-3,
Arcane Hierophant 7, (He's a Bamboo Spirit Folk)
Dread Necromancer 4-8

[Killer Angel]

The discussion went something along the lines of "the capstone is the best level of a PrC and is the only reason to take it." I disagree with this.

Of course you disagree. The correct phrase is "the capstone should be the best level".

Introduce them to the wonder of pious templars. If I remember correctly, the capstone gives you an additional use of smite evil.
Or tell 'em 'bout Risen Martyr.

[kulosle]

Of course you disagree. The correct phrase is "the capstone should be the best level".

Introduce them to the wonder of pious templars. If I remember correctly, the capstone gives you an additional use of smite evil.
Or tell 'em 'bout Risen Martyr.

This is definitely what i should do. God those are such sorry capstones.

[Gwendol]

Monk?

Rogue perhaps?

The one class that gets a really awsome capstone is the Knight.

[JadePhoenix]

Monk?

Rogue perhaps?

The one class that gets a really awsome capstone is the Knight.

Rogue is so damn funny. At 20th level you get... NOTHING.

[kulosle]

Monk?

Rogue perhaps?

The one class that gets a really awsome capstone is the Knight.

Factotum gets an amazing capstone!

[Killer Angel]

Monk?

Rogue perhaps?


True, but they're not PrC.

edit: my bad, i though the OP was only 'bout PrC, but standard classes are included also. so yeah, those two fit perfectly.

[Feytalist]

Green Star Adept has a cool capstone. One that you're better off not taking.

[candycorn]

Wizard 3 / Focused Specialist 9 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 6 / Archmage 2

Not a single capstone level, but, I'd wager, still quite effective.

This is because of one little thing about all casting PrC's. See, you don't take them for the capstone. You take them for the caster level. You take them because the features they offer are better than the features offered by your base class.

True optimization is, more or less, the seeking of synergy across multiple options.

Sometimes PrC 10 has the best synergy. Sometimes, PrC 7 / Other PrC 4 does. (Wildshape ranger 5 / Master of many forms 7 / Warshaper 4)

Optimization has general guidelines, but even those are flexible, in the search for synergy.

[gkathellar]

Factotum gets an amazing capstone!

It gets an awesome capstone at 19th level, yes. Waitaminut—

It really depends on the class or PrC. Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper 10? Awesome. Mindbender or Pious Templar 10? Eh ... no. Incantatrix of Dweomerkeeper 1? No point. Mindbender or Pious Templar 1? Oh hell yes.

[Alleran]

For this challenge capstone is defined as the best ability of the class.
Does Beholder Mage spellcasting count as the capstone? And then there's classes like Dweomerkeeper (with the Mantle, the Supernatural Spell, and the metamagic reducer all in one) or Incantatrix (exactly which metamagic-booster is the capstone?).

[Yora]

Capstones are meaningless, as they come into play only at the very end. But RPGs are not about the end result, but about getting there. I wouldn't play a mediocre character for 20 or even just 10 levels only to have a great one for the last three or four sessions.

[Gandariel]

Capstones are meaningless, as they come into play only at the very end. But RPGs are not about the end result, but about getting there. I wouldn't play a mediocre character for 20 or even just 10 levels only to have a great one for the last three or four sessions.

See truenamer and free gates

[motoko's ghost]

Rogue is so damn funny. At 20th level you get... NOTHING.

Thats because your past self stole from present-you at lv10.:smallcool:

[Metahuman1]

Fighter: Gets a damn feat, AGAIN!

I can't even remember the Capstones of the Paladin and Ranger which tends to tell me they were underwhelming as well.

Ok, no Capstone build.

Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 2/ Fist of the Forest 1/ Warblade 15.

No Capstone levels.

Take Travel Devotion, and either a Domain that nets you a useful feat or a useful Devotion feat with your other Domian.

Take Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

First Few feats should be Power attack/ Great Fortitude/ and Improved Unarmed Strike to get into fist of the Forest. After that Adaptive style will be important.

If your willing to give up 9th level Martial maneuvers you could grab a level or two of swordsage and get access to Setting Sun and Shadow hand.

Focus Mostly on Stone Dragon and White Raven Schools with Warblade. Pick up Iron heart and MAYBE Diamond mind for a few counters. Sudden leap might not be a bad dip either but you likely won't need it unless you do a fall form the sky and attack approach. After all, you've got Travel Devotion, Turn attempts to spend on it, and pounce, and standard action strikes.

Now, you want to either have a party caster you can count on to cooperate, a cohort that can cast spells, or some ranks in UMD and a couple of Eternal wands of Greater Mighty Wallop to make your Damage More relevant. Particularly at higher levels. Between that and maneuvers you should be fine on your ability to hurt things.

[Tyndmyr]

So my group believes that, besides several dip classes like mindbender, you should stick with classes all the way to the capstone. The discussion went something along the lines of "the capstone is the best level of a PrC and is the only reason to take it." I disagree with this. What is the best build you can make without grabbing the capstone of any class/PrC? For this challenge capstone is defined as the best ability of the class. I'm not sure whether or not this means the telepathy of mind bender or not. My group got off line so we couldn't finish setting down the ground rules. Any ideas?

Both ways are valid. Sometimes I stick it out the entire time...and sometimes there really is no capstone. Look at Mystic Theurge for instance. There's nothing you can point to as a capstone. So...take it till you get bored of it?

Some classes cost too much to get into to be worth dipping, though. Incantatrix? I'm gonna take at least four levels. It's really not worth it for a dip.

In general, melee classes tend to be more dip friendly. Paladin, for instance, is front loaded. So, bouncing into say, fighter for a free feat or two is probably preferable to going straight pally. The same is true of barb/fighter. You're better off with a lev or two of fighter than going straight barb. Marshall is also pretty solid for a one level dip. My melee builds tend to be a lovely scattering of all manner of dips, none of which adds anything ridiculous, but the sum total of which is extremely solid.

[Psyren]

Keep in mind that PrC capstones are often actually relevant - you'll get most of them around 15-17.

Base class capstones... not so much. But Pathfinder made some damn good ones.

For manifesting PrCs:
Meditant's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c) capstone is sauce.
Constructor's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) is great!
Subverted Psion's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a) is terrible, especially with what you have to go through to get it.
Body Leech's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a)... I need to read this class more closely.
Crystal Master's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d) is nice.
Soul Manifester's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) is okay.
Sangehirn's: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) LOL
Elocater's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm#acceleratedAction) is terrible.
Metamind's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/metamind.htm) is awesome - if only the rest of it didn't suck.
Psion Uncarnate's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) is fantastic.
Slayer's (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) is awful.
Thrallherd's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) is sheer win.

[motoko's ghost]

I've always been fond of the transformational capstone,like dragon disciple and whatnot. I very rarely get a chance to use them in a build though as they generally occupy niches I don't really use:smallfrown:

[Little Brother]

For a build: Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Nar-Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 7/UM5.

Spontaneous Divination, and UM on Wizard twice. Really cheesy, but gets you 7th level Nar Demonbinder, 14th level Wizard, and 9th level Ur-Priest casting.

Less cheesy is just Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 7/Mindbender 1/Other wizard progression dips, or just straight wizard 5.

Or just something like Bard 1/Druid 5/Arcane Heirophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9.

Ardent 1/Spell to Power Erudite 4/Mindbender 1/Other Wizard or Psion dips X/Erudite Y.

Or Spell-to-Power Erudite 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/STP or progression dips +17. Use Martial Study at level 1 for Leading the Attack, Extra Granted Maneuver at 3, and Martial Study WRT at 9, giving it to Crusader. You have WRT every turn. You can do the same on wizards, too, I just like Erudites. On Erudite, you can also use Supernatural Transformation for SU psionics(And, by extension, spells). BF is awesome for coming up with the Martial Adept part.

[SaintRidley]

Less cheesy is just Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 7/Mindbender 1/Other wizard progression dips, or just straight wizard 5.

Going by the rules of the thread, namely that the capstone is the best ability (and if you dip mindbender you're getting yourself mindsight), I'm pretty sure Mindbender carries its capstone at level 1 and is therefore not allowed. I value telepathy+mindsight so far over anything else that class offers.

Your mileage might vary.

[motoko's ghost]

Going by the rules of the thread, namely that the capstone is the best ability (and if you dip mindbender you're getting yourself mindsight), I'm pretty sure Mindbender carries its capstone at level 1 and is therefore not allowed. I value telepathy+mindsight so far over anything else that class offers.

Your mileage might vary.

Man mindsight is pretty cheesy by itself, I've only ever used it once and that was on a blind oracle sphinx demon lord thing(Yeah, don't ask)
I am fond of mindbender1 if purely for telepathy Mmmm...telepathy:smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

The one class that gets a really awsome capstone is the Knight.
Warblade, too.


Slayer's (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) is awful.

This is another class, like Factotum, where I consider the capstone to be the second-last level.

[Mantarni]

Yes, you really don't. That said, Blade Bravo. Iaijutsu Master. Rainbow Servant with a spontaneous caster. Hnnnnnnnnnnnnnng.

[Psyren]

This is another class, like Factotum, where I consider the capstone to be the second-last level.

Binder, too.


As far as true capstones, Incarnate and Totemist have awesome ones as well. (Avoids looking at Soulborn.)

Shadowcaster's is a joke. Truenamer's... well, it's interesting at least.

[Cieyrin]

Yes, you really don't. That said, Blade Bravo. Iaijutsu Master. Rainbow Servant with a spontaneous caster. Hnnnnnnnnnnnnnng.

Iaijutsu Master is an awesome 5 level PrC, isn't it? :smalltongue:

Incarnate's super mode is not bad at all. Barbarian Mighty Rage is...okay but I got it when I picked up a Furious Weapon. Swiftblade's controlled time stop is certainly a thing.

[Big Fau]

Incarnate's super mode is not bad at all.

Same with the Totemist's. And the Warblade's Dual Stance ability is really damn good.

[Wings of Peace]

Captstones aren't that big a deal. Just ask Arcane Duelist, Tainted Scholar, Primal Scholar, Frenzied Berserker, Warshaper, Hulking Hurler, Bloodstorm Blade, and many more!

[Turok124]

emancipated spawn from savage species ;) :P

[Chambers]

See truenamer and free gates

The joke there is having to take 20 levels of Truenamer :smallwink:

[Heliomance]

Monk?

Rogue perhaps?

The one class that gets a really awsome capstone is the Knight.

The Truenamer's Say My Name And I Am There is also one of the most awesome class features ever written. Shame about the other 19 levels.

[kulosle]

The Truenamer's Say My Name And I Am There is also one of the most awesome class features ever written. Shame about the other 19 levels.

And it in no way makes up for the rest of the class.