help choosing class

[Silma]

Hi everyone!
We're starting a new campaign and I frankly don't know what class to pick. Any advice?

I was planning to play a Thief, but then another player wanted to play an Executioner, so i figured it would be best if i switched.
What we have currently are:

Dragonborn Warlord (Bravura)
Drow Avenger (Pursuing)
Human Assassin Executioner (Red Scale)
Eladrin Warlock Binder (Star Pact)

I normally play controllers or strikers (bladisinger and hexblade are my favorite classes) but i think we'll be a little too squishy as a party if i play a striker too.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, you have a lot of strikers in there; a party with many strikers is viable, but it's a bit swingy. This party could really use a good defender. For example, a fighter is a strong defender who can still compete with most strikers in the damage department.

[INDYSTAR188]

I agree with Kurald, I think you need a defender and Fighter is my favorite by far. I think Warden is pretty good and Swordmage is decent. But a Dwarven Fighter w/Dwarven Weapon Training, a Craghammer, and Brash Strike (At Will that lets you add your CON modifier to damage when wielding a hammer) is a pretty good way to start.

[The_Pyre]

Fighter is a really good choice, especially if your build lets you mark multiple baddies at once. That said, if you think you'll enjoy playing a striker more, go right ahead. Having a party full of strikers makes for very exciting games, I hear, especially as you race to kill the enemy before you're killed. :smallsmile:

[Dimers]

If you'd enjoy Thief, go Thief! Enjoying playing is what it's all about. You can make competitions with the other strikers in-character. "Bet I can finish more hobgoblins than you can!" You won't care about your lost hit points when the spray of blood confirms your supremacy! :smallsmile:

[Silma]

Well I generally enjoy playing classes that are somewhat more mobile. I prefer moving around the battlefield a lot. The thing about the thief is that when it comes to the actual gaming, i intend to steal. A lot. Even from my allies. Which is ok, because as a group we do not always play characters that get along. See, I have a back-story similar to Haley's from gitp. My brother is held captive blah blah blah. In truth all I needed was a reason to steal even the most mundane things. In-game, my selling point for convincing them to keep me with them is that i'm the only one with stealth and thievery skills. Imagine a guy who gets everyone into trouble but gets to stay with the group because they need him. But with the assassin as part of the team, the thief is kinda obsolete.
I know my whole argument sound kinda weird, but I tend to try to put a little more depth in all my characters. I mean the good-old "we're-all-friends-and-we-kill-monsters" party is great, but the current party is nothing like this. You've got an arrogant dragonborn that cares only about recovering proof of the existence of the old dragon gods or something, a brooding drow who kills all in his path, a power-hungry warlock, and an assassin. Story-wise they'd never take a thief to travel with them.

So I can:
1. Try to find a reason to get the thief in the team (other than the fact that he's my character so he gets to be with them) and still have a party full of strikers.
2. Play a defender.
3. Play a valorous bard. With his support abilities maybe I can fill the gap of not having a defender.

I know it seems that I'm over-thinking it, but this campaign is intended to go all the way from level 1 to 30 ,so I have to find something I won't get bored with.

[Bearpunch]

Try Battlemind. Cool Fluff, Psionics are awesome, and they have high mobility if you build them right. (as in, super teleportation)

[INDYSTAR188]

So I can:
1. Try to find a reason to get the thief in the team (other than the fact that he's my character so he gets to be with them) and still have a party full of strikers.
2. Play a defender.
3. Play a valorous bard. With his support abilities maybe I can fill the gap of not having a defender.

I know it seems that I'm over-thinking it, but this campaign is intended to go all the way from level 1 to 30 ,so I have to find something I won't get bored with.

I think you should play whatever class you WANT to play first. But since your looking at your options and asking for opinions I would still say go defender. As it is your group is 3 Strikers and a Leader right now, so if you play a Bard, then you'll have a second Leader and three Strikers. If you play Rogue you'll have four Strikers and a Leader. So I would suggest something similar to what a player in my campaign (set in Forgotten Realms) did. He wanted to be from Whelhoon, so he could use the regional benefit:

CORMYR REGIONAL BENEFIT
You add Insight to your class skill list, you gain a +2 bonus to Insight checks, and you gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against fear effects. If you hail from the prison city of Wheloon, you instead add Thievery to your class skill list, gain a +2 bonus to Thievery checks, and gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against charm effects.

So, this way he was still able to keep the background flavor and a skill he really wanted (he usually plays a Rogue/Thief type) and still be the class he was liking.

[Vknight]

Go bard with the right setup you can have great modifiers in every skill.
Also Heros of The Feywild released the Skald which can say hes a Bard so take me to the king as an ability.

[Silma]

Go bard with the right setup you can have great modifiers in every skill.
Also Heros of The Feywild released the Skald which can say hes a Bard so take me to the king as an ability.

The normal bard gets those abilities too since Heroes of the Feywild.

[Dimers]

Based on the info you've given now, Silma, I'd suggest a Druid. You're used to playing controllers and strikers, and a Wis+Dex druid would be a bit of both. Your party lacks a controller. Druids have good mobility -- not the best, but good. You'll need Dex either primary or secondary to really shine with those Thievery checks. Pick up Thievery via rogue or monk MC and choose the more controlling powers, and you're all set in terms of stats. You might find it harder to justify to the party in-character that they need a controller, but after you make the DM's teeth grind a few times, they'll have to admit the value.

Another decent option is a Dex+Wis monk. Again, that's effectively both striker and controller. There are a LOT of monk powers that debuff and control, and by going Centered Breath, you slide foes around constantly. Multiclassing to shaman would be a good way to add more healing into the party, and speak with spirits would let you add both primary stats to your Thievery check once a day.

If defender still feels like the better route, I'll second the suggestion of battlemind for mobility. Swordmage is good in that department, too. Unfortunately, neither class cares about Dexterity, so they won't be good at stealing. Fighters can use Dexterity but they have pretty 'meh' mobility.

[Aron Times]

You lack a defender and a controller. Why not play a defender/controller like the swordmage? The swordmage is a highly mobile class which has lots of movement and teleportation powers. You basically flash step all over the battlefield with the right build, and if you're an eladrin, you can do it even more!

Besides, they're the closest analogue to Jedi in D&D 4e. Or Sith, if you lean that way.

[Drglenn]

For the stealing side of things you could always pick up stealth and/or thievery from backgrounds/feats (the occupation: criminal background gives you access to either, multiclass rogue or poisoner gives you thievery training)

[Zaq]

You lack a defender and a controller. Why not play a defender/controller like the swordmage? The swordmage is a highly mobile class which has lots of movement and teleportation powers. You basically flash step all over the battlefield with the right build, and if you're an eladrin, you can do it even more!

Besides, they're the closest analogue to Jedi in D&D 4e. Or Sith, if you lean that way.

I was about to say something similar. You have neither a defender nor a controller (no, the Binder does not count as a controller, because they don't control), so something that blends the two would be perfect. My choice would probably be a Warden. A properly built Warden is practically a zone anyway . . . you CAN build one like a striker, but I roll my eyes at people who do. Fighters are also good at control if you build 'em right, but Wardens have a slightly easier time of multitarget control, I think.

[Mando Knight]

A Defender is probably more important than a Controller what with all of your Strikers and a Bravura Warlord. Several Defender builds can be just as mobile as many Strikers: try a Tempest Fighter, Battlemind, or a Swordmage. Why steal when you can be badass?

[Silma]

I think I'll go with swordmage. I prefer the arcane flavor to the divine or primal.
I'm working on a swordmage-wizard build, maybe one that can use the wizard's thunderwave, so i can push enemies away from my allies when things get rough.
Maybe I'll throw in a few bursts and blasts from both classes.
If I don't find an efficient build. I'll go with a classic assault swordmage.

[MeeposFire]

I think I'll go with swordmage. I prefer the arcane flavor to the divine or primal.
I'm working on a swordmage-wizard build, maybe one that can use the wizard's thunderwave, so i can push enemies away from my allies when things get rough.
Maybe I'll throw in a few bursts and blasts from both classes.
If I don't find an efficient build. I'll go with a classic assault swordmage.

Hybrid will serve you well here. I would highly recommend that you take swordmage warding for your hybrid talent. I also recommend shielding as your swordmage type and sword burst as your at will. You should feel mobile due to teleports and wizard dailies are great (the shielding swordmage has many nice encounter powers that work off of your turn or work in conjunction with your shielding mechanic, such as transposing lunge, that turns defense into offense). For powers I would start like this...

Swordmage at will-sword burst (at will burst 1 is excellent)

Wizard at will- Beguiling strands/thunder wave/winged horde.

Choose 1 (or 2 if human as this is one of the few times being human can be useful if you want more choice in which case choose winged horde and one of the others). Beguiling strands pushes a large area and is party friendly but lacks damage plus can be later augmented to add attack penalties. Thunder wave pushes an area (though not very far since your wisdom will likely be low), deals good damage, can be augmented to increase size twice, but it can hurt your party members. Winged horde has a nice control effect that is easily enlarged and can be made to impose attack penalties. It will not be usable up close however (unless you use staff expertise and that costs you your arm slot). Personally I like the push because that is solid control and it keeps enemies away from you which increases the chance that they violate your mark. Beguiling strands is easier I think but it will cost you damage if you go that way.

encounter 1- wizard encounter- charm of misplaced wrath or grasping shadows are excellent.

daily- choose a wizard daily. Arcane whirlwind, horrid whispers, or phantom chasm are good.

2-utility of choice. Armators step or whatever it is called (swordmage utility) might fit you since it gives you a teleport. There is also a swordmage utility that protects against damage at this level.

3. transposing lunge or dimensional vortex. Vortex allows you to punish any target that is not marked by you but can cause opportunity attacks. Transposing lunge will be used in conjunction with your mark power so you double punish but it does not enable you to protect against a non-marked attack.

Now later when you take a paragon path I would take either malec-Keth Janissary for elemental abuse or bonded summoner so you can use mage hand to teleport as a minor action just because you want mobility (if you take this option look into summon dailies).

May post more tomorrow if you want I am out of time tonight.

[Reluctance]

Hybrid will serve you well here.

SM/Wizard is one of the better hybrids, but it's still a hybrid. Hybridizing without a very clear plan what you want from both sides is one of the few ways to make a bad 4e character. Especially when 1/encounter Thunderwave (or the Essentials alternative whose name escapes me at the moment) only costs a feat.

If you're willing to sink feats/backgrounds, being taking over the thief's skill shtick is easy. Stealth and Thievery cover it all. (And Perception, but everybody likes Perception.) And whether you go SM or fighter, you'll be back to being the guy whose antics they'll tolerate as long as you take hits for them.

[Silma]

The Storm Sovereign epic destiny at 30 level says that I can change the damage type of any attack to lightning or thunder. Does the attack also gain the lightning or thunder keyword?

[MeeposFire]

The Storm Sovereign epic destiny at 30 level says that I can change the damage type of any attack to lightning or thunder. Does the attack also gain the lightning or thunder keyword?

Yes. That is why paragon paths like malec-keth janisary are worth a lot since adding damage of a certain type adds that keyword as well. So if you want lightning or thunder earlier you can get at 16 using that path, epic using that ED, paragon again with a feat if your genasi (shocking flame), or using an elemental weapon.

[Mando Knight]

SM/Wizard is one of the better hybrids, but it's still a hybrid. Hybridizing without a very clear plan what you want from both sides is one of the few ways to make a bad 4e character. Especially when 1/encounter Thunderwave (or the Essentials alternative whose name escapes me at the moment) only costs a feat.
This. You shouldn't need to Thunderwave every round (and it targets all creatures, anyway), and if you really need a forced movement at-will, you can also try taking Lightning Lash. Note that in order to maximize Thunderwave's push, you'll also need a good Wisdom score, which is a tertiary score at best for most Swordmages.

[Silma]

I have the entire build ready. And I'm not so reliant on Thunderwave.
Here it is.
Note: Might change the PP to Malec-Keth Janissary, in which case the build will change a little bit. The general idea remains the same though.

Eladrin Swordmage/Wizard -> Battle Mage -> Storm Sovereign

Level 1
Ability Scores (After Racial Bonuses)
STR: 10
CON: 12
DEX: 10
INT: 20
WIS: 12
CHA: 12
Class Features: Aegis of Ensnarement
Feats: Hybrid Talent (Swordmage Warding)
At-will Powers: Swordburst (SM), Thunderwave (W)
Encounter Powers: Glorious Presence (W), Fey Step (R)
Daily Powers: Arcane Whirlwind (W)

Level 2
Utility Powers: Host Of Shields (SM)
Feats: Armor Proficiency Leather

Level 3
Encounter Powers: Dimensional Vortex (SM)

Level 4
Ability Scores: +1 INT, +1 WIS
Feats: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blades, Light Blades)

Level 5
Daily Powers: Lingering Lightning (SM)

Level 6
Utility Powers: Fire Shield (W)
Feats: Enlarge Spell

Level 7
Encounter Powers: Thunderclap Strike (SM)

Level 8
Ability Scores: +1 INT, +1 CON
Feats: Great Fortitude

Level 9
Daily Powers: Forceful Dismissal (SM)

Level 10
Ability Scores: +1 to all
Utility Powers: Impenetrable Warding (SM)
Feats: Superior Reflexes

Level 11
Paragon Path Encounter Power: Forceful Retort
Feats: Resounding Thunder

Level 12
Paragon Path Utility Power: Arcane Rejuvenation
Feats: Arcane Admixture (Glorious Presence)

Level 13
Encounter Powers: Improved Glorious Presence (W) [replaces Dimensional Vortex]

Level 14
Ability Scores: +1 INT, +1 WIS
Feats: Superior Will
Retrain: Arcane Admixture (level 12) to Arcane Admixture (Improved Glorious Presence)

Level 15
Daily Powers: Blast of Cold (W) [replaces Lingering Lightning]

Level 16
Utility Powers: Stoneskin (W)
Feats: Echoes of Thunder

Level 17
Encounter Powers: Thundering Vortex (SM) [replaces Thunderclap Strike]

Level 18
Ability Scores: +1 INT, +1 WIS
Feats: Double Aegis

Level 19
Daily Powers: Free The Storm Within (SM) [replaces Arcane Whirlwind]

Level 20
Paragon Path Daily Power: Closing Spell
Feats: Coordinated Explosion

Level 21
Ability Scores: +1 to all
Feats: Spell accuracy
Retrain: Double Aegis (Level 18) to Quickened Spellcasting (Thunderwave)

Level 22
Utility Powers: Time Stop (W)
Feats: Total Aegis
Retrain: Great Fortitude (Level 8) to Superior Fortitude

Level 23
Encounter Powers: Chain Lightning (W) [replaces Glorious Presence]

Level 24
Ability Scores: +1 INT, +1 WIS
Feats: Epic Fortitude

Level 25
Daily Powers: Elemental Maw (W) [replaces Forceful Dismissal]

Level 26
Epic Destiny Utility Power:
Feats: Epic Will

Level 27
Encounter Powers: Supreme Glorious Presence (W) [replaces Improved Glorious Presence]

Level 28
Ability Scores: +1 INT, +1 CON
Feats: Epic Reflexes

Level 29
Daily Powers: Transdimesional Invasion (SM) [replaces Blast Of Cold]

Level 30
Feats: Epic Resurgence
Retrain: Arcane Admixture (Level 12) to Trusted Spellcasting (Supreme Glorious Presence)

[Tegu8788]

Fey Step is an encounter power, not an at-will, but otherwise looks good to my untrained eye.

[Zaq]

Thunderwave with 12 WIS doesn't seem like a very hot deal to me. I think you should either tweak your stats (a starting 20 is POSSIBLE on a Wizard/Swordmage, but it costs a hell of a lot) or move to a less secondary-dependent at-will. Beguiling Strands, if you have access to it, does much the same thing as Thunderwave, only it's bigger, stat-independent, and party-friendly.

[Silma]

Fey Step is an encounter power, not an at-will, but otherwise looks good to my untrained eye.

sorry my mistake. anyway, i just updated the build to include all levels.


Thunderwave with 12 WIS doesn't seem like a very hot deal to me. I think you should either tweak your stats (a starting 20 is POSSIBLE on a Wizard/Swordmage, but it costs a hell of a lot) or move to a less secondary-dependent at-will. Beguiling Strands, if you have access to it, does much the same thing as Thunderwave, only it's bigger, stat-independent, and party-friendly.

I wanted Thunderwave because of the thunder keyword. Also, I hate psychic damage.

[Zaq]

In that case, consider taking Booming Blade as your Swordmage at-will (it's a good one—great for stickiness, and it has the right damage type) and getting your AoE jollies from your Wizard at-will. Wizards don't explicitly have a close burst 1 at-will (very few classes do), but they have no shortage of close blasts and area (read: ranged) bursts. You could also go human (humans make superb Swordmages—the extra feat goes a long way, the +1 to F/R/W is great, and the extra at-will comes in handy) and get Sword Burst back, if you like. The point is that Thunderwave is going to do next to nothing for you as you've got it right now.

Any particular reason you "hate psychic damage"? Of all the types to dislike, I find that one a bit odd.

[Silma]

I was between Booming Blade And Sword Burst. I chose Sword Burst because it's an aoe at-will that targets only enemies. For those situations where allies and enemies are engaged in a way that i can't use Thunderwave.

As for the psychic damage, i don't really have a reason. I just hate it. Flavor-wise. I'm more of an elemental damage guy. Psychic, Necrotic, Poison and Acid are out of the question. Unless I have a certain concept for a character, that requires the use of one of those damage types.


(Also, on an unrelated note, I read your Truenamer guide. Pretty good. I always wanted to play a Truenamer, but he seemed so hard, but I may try him soon. I'm not such a big fan of ice-cream, so...)

[MeeposFire]

I would not recommend battlemage and friends don't let friends play ensnarement swordmages. Even assault is better than ensnarement.

[Silma]

I would not recommend battlemage and friends don't let friends play ensnarement swordmages. Even assault is better than ensnarement.

I'm thinking of changing PP to Malec-Keth Janissary anyway.
About the aegis, the reason I chose Ensnarement, is because I want to bring enemies close to me, and away from my allies. So I can then blast them with aoe spells without having to chase them.

(Also, do you play DOTA?)

[MeeposFire]

I'm thinking of changing PP to Malec-Keth Janissary anyway.
About the aegis, the reason I chose Ensnarement, is because I want to bring enemies close to me, and away from my allies. So I can then blast them with aoe spells without having to chase them.

(Also, do you play DOTA?)

Swordmages in general do not want their marked guy next to them. Usually they mark somebody and then attack other enemies. The biggest problem with ensnarement is that it does not do much to the enemy. The enemy will still hit your friend and deal damage. If you were shielding you would reduce damage to your allies which may make some enemies move to engage you which may provoke OAs and even if it does not you are reducing its accuracy by 10% and reducing its damage with your aegis.

If you do ensnarement then immediate action powers become more powerful since they are all likely better than using your defender feature.

As for DOTA I own War Craft 3 but I don't recall playing DOTA (or maybe once not sure certainly not regularly).

[Silma]

Swordmages in general do not want their marked guy next to them. Usually they mark somebody and then attack other enemies. The biggest problem with ensnarement is that it does not do much to the enemy. The enemy will still hit your friend and deal damage. If you were shielding you would reduce damage to your allies which may make some enemies move to engage you which may provoke OAs and even if it does not you are reducing its accuracy by 10% and reducing its damage with your aegis.

If you do ensnarement then immediate action powers become more powerful since they are all likely better than using your defender feature.

As for DOTA I own War Craft 3 but I don't recall playing DOTA (or maybe once not sure certainly not regularly).

Now that you mention it, i think you may be right. Shielding Aegis might be a much better choice. After I take a look at Malec-Keth PP, I'll change the aegis too.

(I asked if you play DOTA, because there is a hero in there called Meepo, and I thought you took your name from him)

[MeeposFire]

Now that you mention it, i think you may be right. Shielding Aegis might be a much better choice. After I take a look at Malec-Keth PP, I'll change the aegis too.

(I asked if you play DOTA, because there is a hero in there called Meepo, and I thought you took your name from him)

Ah makes sense. No I took my name (and DOTA more than likely took it from here too) from an infamous kobold npc in a D&D adventure. Suffice to say I later made a kobold dragonfire adept named Meepo in a 3.5 game and he became the single most famous npc of my gaming group (despite only being played 3 times) with his funny voicing style (sounded like Caespanar from Baldurs Gate 2 Throne of Bhaal) and intelligent and crazy antics (using bags of flour to find invisible opponents and running around being a distraction so that my party could do some covert actions). He became so famous that my friends and fiance forced me to name the new cat Meepo. So I use it a lot online.

[Zaq]

Ensnarement works if and only if your party caters to it. If your hypothetical friendly Wizard has lots of nice zones to deposit enemies in, for instance, or if your hypothetical friendly Warlock has Dire Radiance up and would just love the enemy to come a little bit closer, it's not an utter waste of time.

More often than not, though? It's pretty bad. It doesn't do anything fundamentally bad to the enemy. Being pulled next to the least sticky defender in the game isn't that much of a hardship. If they decide they want to, for example, shift and make a ranged attack, or shift and charge at your squishy Psion friend? You can pretty much do jack all about it (oh no, you pulled them back! And we all know how well that worked in the first place . . .), and that's pretty terrible. Granting CA is the mildest of deterrents, and even the feats that boost it (like Grasping Ensnarement) don't do that much . . . after all, the monster's turn is likely to be over before it really feels the pain of being slowed.

It's a hard lesson to learn. Conceptually, Snaremages are one of my favorite classes. It's such a cool idea. My first character was one. They just don't actually work.

(Minor exception: a Pixie Snaremage can teleport their victims 2 squares up, meaning that they risk taking falling damage and being knocked prone, which is almost kind of like a deterrent. Of course, they get a save to resist the whole thing, and if they're trained in Acrobatics, they have a very good chance of negating the damage and landing on their feet . . . but it's something.)

[MeeposFire]

Oddly the best option of teleporting around and punishing enemies (which I think also involves teleporting enemies around) is the knight class played with an eladrin as your race if I recall.