Buffs to Persist

[kardar233]

I've been asking a lot from you guys recently, but I'm almost finished the character I've been working on and would really appreciate some suggestions.

For those who haven't been following my other threads, this is for a lvl20 Gestalt high-op game where I'm playing an Archivist Sha'ir Iot7V RKV Bone Knight Spelldancer Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot that relies on Extended Persistent spells, especially Shapechange.

Here's the list of spells so far. I've got Ocular Spell and Reach Spell so I can Persist nearly anything, and I've been using Extraordinary Spell Aim to form AMFs around me, so things that stick around me should be out unless they are affected by Initiate of Mystra somehow. I can fit two spells per slot as I'm getting 48 hour durations. I'm running a bit short on WBL so I've also got to be selective as to what spells I get from scrolls.

5+1 9th-level Cleric -> Choose Destiny (Domain), Greater Visage of the Deity, Shapechange (Domain), Investiture of the Hellfire Engine, Investiture of the Pit Fiend, End to Strife (ESA, Widen)
5+1 8th-level Cleric -> Greater Spell Immunity (7 things), Stormrage, Investiture of the Horned Devil
5+1 7th level Cleric -> Holy Star, Holy Transformation, Renewal Pact, Investiture of the Ice Devil
5+1 6th level Cleric -> Energy Immunity x2(using Triadspell) Investiture of the Barbed Devil, Investiture of the Malebranche, Antilife Shell (widen)
7+1 5th level Cleric -> Divine Retribution (check damage type and ability damage), Righteous Might, Divine Agility, Greater Blindsight, Greater Vigor, Investiture of the Narzugon, Investiture of the Orthon, True Seeing (exp. M)
7+1 4th level Cleric -> Recitation, Divine Power (DMM Persist), Freedom of Movement, Spiritual Advisor, Investiture of the Amnizu, Investiture of the Harvester Devil, Investiture of the Steel Devil, Greater Magic Weapon, Remove Fatigure (both days)
7+1 3rd level Cleric -> Delay Death (Su) (Domain) (DMM Persist), Sheltered Vitality, Magic Vestment, Blessed Sight, Fell the Greatest Foe, Prayer, Investiture of the Bearded Devil, Investiture of the Chain Devil, Investiture of the Erinyes, Vision of the Omniscient Eye, Shield of Warding
7+1 2nd level Cleric -> Substitute Domain (destiny), Substitute Domain (animal) Balor Nimbus, Aid, Divine Protection, Elation, Fox’s Cunning, Owl’s Wisdom, Undetectable Alignment
7+1 1st level Cleric -> Blood Wind (DMM Persist), Conviction, Eyes of the Avoral, Detect Evil, Protection From Evil, Grave Strike
6 0-level Cleric

3 9th-level Archivist -> Hero’s Blade (scroll!, DMM Persist), Cast in Stone (scroll!), Nature’s Avatar (scroll!)
4 8th-level Archivist -> Crown of Glory (scroll!), Foresight (scroll!), Mastery of the Sky (scroll!)
5 7th-level Archivist -> Owl’s Insight (scroll!), Aura of Vitality (scroll!)
6 6th-level Archivist -> Nixie’s Grace (scroll!), Empyreal Ecstacy (scroll, cast both days), Snowsong (scroll!)
7 5th-level Archivist
7 4th-level Archivist -> Favor of the Martyr (scroll!, DMM Persist), Essence of the Raptor (scroll!), Superior Magic Fang (scroll!)
7 3rd level Archivist -> Good Hope (scroll!), Anyspellx6
7 2nd level Archivist -> Nature’s Favor (scroll!, DMM Persist), Wild Instincts (scroll!), Hunter’s Eye (scroll!), Heroicsx6 (through Anyspell, using Triadspell)
7 1st level Archivist -> Beastland Ferocity (scroll!), Lightfoot (scroll!)
4 0-level Archivist

2 9th-level Sha’ir -> Srinshee’s Spell Shift, Effulgent Epuration, Breath Weapon Admixture
4 8th level Sha’ir -> Superior Invisibility
5 7th level Sha’ir -> Ironguard, Planar Bubble, Bite of the Werebear, Greater Arcane Sight, Elemental Body, Justice of the Wyrm King, Greater Stunning Breath
6 6th-level Sha’ir -> Antimagic Field (widen, ESA), Starmantle, Greater Anticipate Teleport (widen), Superior Resistance, Karmic Retribution, Opalescent Glare (Instantaneous, no slot needed), Freezing Glance, Greater Heroism, Primal Speed
7 5th-level Sha’ir -> Triplestrike, Improved Blink, Dragonsight, Ethereal Breath, Dispelling Breath, Greater Dimension Door, Transformation of the Deeps
7 4th-level Sha’ir -> Ruin Delver’s Fortune (using Triadspell), Sharptooth, Greater Mirror Image, Aerial Alacrity, Enduring Flight, Primal Senses, Friendly Fire (EoE), Nezram’s Emerald Energy Shield, Superior Darkvision, Voice of the Dragon, Battlehymn, Greater Wings of Air
7 3rd level Sha’ir -> Haste, Ferocity of Sanguine Rage, Tongues, Battlemagic Perception, Spellcaster’s Bane, Primal Instinct, Displacement, Nondetection (exp. M)
7 2nd level Sha’ir -> Scintillating Scales, Wraithstrike, Mountain Stance, Masochism, Sadism, Razorfangs, Detect Thoughts, Sonic Weapon, See Invisibility
7 1st level Sha’ir -> Hoard Gullet, Shield, Accelerated Movement, Ebon Eyes, Jump, Critical Strike, Friendly Face, Golem Strike
5 0-level Sha’ir -> Detect Magic, Read Magic


Oh, the reason for all the breath and natural attack-affecting buffs there is because I'm using a Very Young Polychromatic Dragon as my primary combat form.

Thanks for any help.

By the way, Douglas, if you're reading this, you are my personal saviour; I can't tell you how much your work (especially Team Solar) has helped with this build.

~EDIT~ Update of list. Removed most Necromancy and Evocation spells, noted essential ones with (DMM Persist). Added several more; thanks to Anthrowhale. Fixed Mind-Affecting conflicts.

~EDIT2~ I have discovered Triadspell.

[motoko's ghost]

Ebon eyes(SC) lets you see through any darkness, some other minor junk and is 1stlv, it lets you use deeper darkness to shut down anything without special sense or see in darkness without imparing you, not sure how much help it would be for you at that level though.

[kardar233]

Got that. The spoiler in the OP has a list of all the ones I'm using so far.

[Toliudar]

That's a good list! A few things.

I didn't see True Seeing on your list. Unless there's a higher-level spell that subsumes the exact effect, it's worthwhile. Sometimes, the blindsense effect of dragonsight just isn't precise enough.

How the heck are you getting that many persists? Are you running a night stick factory?

Nature's Avatar and Favor require you to be an animal. I'm probably just missing it, but where are you getting that type?

[kardar233]

I was fairly sure I had True Seeing on there. Hmmm. The only problem is that that 250gp price is going to be hitting me in the wallet once every two days, and I don't have a ton of WBL left. Is there anything that covers the same set of effects without an expensive material component?

I do have Mindsight however, through Shedu Crown.

Shapechange gives me the type of whatever I change into, and with Tongues I can still cast as long I have hands so I can Shapechange into a gorilla or something when I cast those and just change back when I'm done.

To answer your question: I'm a Spelldancer and a Bone Knight, so I can dance to take ability damage for free metamagic but I'm immune to ability damage, so I can toss as much metamagic as I want on my beginning-of-day buffs. Plus it gives me an excuse to have an awesome beginning-of-day dance powerup scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqhHgT4mvRQ).

[Douglas]

By the way, Douglas, if you're reading this, you are my personal saviour; I can't tell you how much your work (especially Team Solar) has helped with this build.
:smallredface::smallbiggrin:

I don't have time to compare lists at the moment, but I'm curious: how much of the Team Solars list did you copy, and what, if anything, have you added to it that I left out?

[motoko's ghost]

What about owls insight?, it gives one of the biggest buffs in the game, its druid only though

[Person_Man]

If you're going to DMM Persist a bunch of spells, I would suggest that you focus on defense and utility rather then offense, because it tends to draw less attention/ire from your DM.

And it's worth mentioning that using DMM to Persist buffs is a poor metagame strategy. D&D is not a video game, with a set level of difficulty that you can surpass with a mastery of the game mechanics. It is a dynamic game based on relationships, perceived power, play style, and a variety of other factors.

For example, let's say that an unbuffed Archivist/Whatever starts at "power level 3." (An arbitrary measure of power - this is just a thought experiment). Other players in your group are Tier 3ish builds, and are at power level 5.

You persist a bunch of buffs, and now you're at power level 10 all day.

The DM, who wants to make your combats fun and challenging. So he throws a mix of different encounters at you, with enemies ranging from power level 4 through 12.

Enemies above power level 6 have a habit of always targeting you (because the DM does not want to kill your weaker party members).

And when you run across power level 12 enemies, there is a very high chance that a missed Saving Throw or critical hit ends in your death, because higher level abilities just tend to be more deadly. This holds true even if everyone in your group is a Tier 1ish build using high power persistent abilities. Combat will often come down to who wins Initiative.

So from a metagame perspective, your Archivist/Whatever is better off walking around all day at power level 3, and whipping out the amazing power level 10 spells only when he truly needs them.

[motoko's ghost]

So if you really want to optimise your character, dont overoptimise him?
Lull the DMmonsters into a false sense of security?
You might just be onto something

[Person_Man]

So if you really want to optimise your character, dont overoptimise him?
Lull the DMmonsters into a false sense of security?
You might just be onto something

Close. In general I've found the optimal metagame strategy is to have a large pool of resources which cover a wide variety of different situations (any Tier 1 or 2 class) and then only use those resources if the rest of the party is incapable of wining combat without you.

First round, assess combat. If it's winnable without you, use low level spells (or powers that do not burn a lot of power points) or magic items that do not consume charges. If it's not winnable without you, whip out the appropriate level of power needed to defeat your enemy. When it is necessary to use your full abilities, try to buff an ally (by casting Greater Invisibility on the Rogue or Polymorph on the Fighter) instead of taking out your opponent directly. This avoids the appearance of "stealing the spot light" and "you're too powerful for this group."

Most importantly - do not gloat or tell anyone that you are following this strategy. Your party will resent you and your DM will target you more often if someone accidentally dies because you were holding back. (Though his death will probably make encounters easier for you in the future - which further incentivizes you to follow this strategy).

[lorddrake]

As the DM of the game he's talking about I'm going to agree with Person_Man. Dude, you tottaly have to fool me!

[Zherog]

... on Extended Persistent spells...

Barring house rules, this may not do what you think it does.

If you apply Extend first then Persistent, you get a duration of 24 hours, and a spell slot that's one higher than necessary since Extend didn't do a thing in that equation.

However, applying Persistent first and then Extend results in a duration of... double the spell's original duration, not 48 hours.


Benefit: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal.

(emphasis mine)

[Anthrowhale]

Barring house rules, this may not do what you think it does.

If you apply Extend first then Persistent, you get a duration of 24 hours, and a spell slot that's one higher than necessary since Extend didn't do a thing in that equation.

However, applying Persistent first and then Extend results in a duration of... double the spell's original duration, not 48 hours.



(emphasis mine)

I disagree with this. The normal duration of a persistent spell is 24 hours, and so persistent+extend in the right order lasts 48 hours.

You might find the lists here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223659) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224142) helpful. (In a followup below the OP.)

You seem to be missing "Hunter's Eye" (= many sneakD6), amongst others. You might consider Algid Enhancement. It has a material cost, but so does Starmantle. Also, Friendly Fire > Ray Deflection in all ways. Also, strategic use of Spell Enhancer, Harmonic Chorus, Mystic Surge, etc.. can jack up the level on a few important spells.

Also, I believe Beastland Ferocity and Divine Protection are incompatible with Mindblank. You might want to consider Empyreal Ecstasy instead of Mindblank. Or, you might want to look into an alternative approach to damage invulnerability. With AM+Incorporeal having unpredictable side effects under the Rules Compendium AM revision (discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225533&page=3)), I'd be tempted to go for regeneration + energy immunity + nonlethal immunity, as Candycorn prefers. Geriviar/War Troll/Crystalline Troll are solid choices as shapechange regeneration forms.

[Zherog]

I disagree with this. The normal duration of a persistent spell is 24 hours, and so persistent+extend in the right order lasts 48 hours.

You're free to disagree, but the feat very clearly says, "the spell's normal duration." It does not say, "The spell's duration after other feats are applied."

To use mage armor as an example, the spell's normal duration is 1 hour per level. If we alter the spell with Persistent Spell, the spell's normal duration is... 1 hour per level.

[Urpriest]

You're free to disagree, but the feat very clearly says, "the spell's normal duration." It does not say, "The spell's duration after other feats are applied."

To use mage armor as an example, the spell's normal duration is 1 hour per level. If we alter the spell with Persistent Spell, the spell's normal duration is... 1 hour per level.

I'm not clearly on either side of this point at the moment. Can you point me to other D&D wording where normal is explicitly used to refer to "before all modifications" rather than "before this modification". That seems to be the core of the debate.

[Hirax]

I'm not clearly on either side of this point at the moment. Can you point me to other D&D wording where normal is explicitly used to refer to "before all modifications" rather than "before this modification". That seems to be the core of the debate.

There isn't any such wording. How metamagic feats interact is pretty much left to be ambiguous. It's easy to argue that a maximized energy admixtured fireball would do 60 acid damage and 60 fire damage at CL 10, but it's also just as easy to argue that the acid damage wouldn't be maximized. The only thing to really go on is under the maximize spell entry in the PHB, it says that maximize and empower work separately, to do 60+5d6, for instance. But that doesn't really help with the application of any other feats, because it can be argued that the empower+maximize text is there to highlight an exception, or it can be argued that's how all metamagic feats interact.

[Urpriest]

There isn't any such wording. How metamagic feats interact is pretty much left to be ambiguous. It's easy to argue that a maximized energy admixtured fireball would do 60 acid damage and 60 fire damage at CL 10, but it's also just as easy to argue that the acid damage wouldn't be maximized. The only thing to really go on is under the maximize spell entry in the PHB, it says that maximize and empower work separately, to do 60+5d6, for instance. But that doesn't really help with the application of any other feats, because it can be argued that the empower+maximize text is there to highlight an exception, or it can be argued that's how all metamagic feats interact.

I was speaking more generally. IIRC most metamagic doesn't use the word "normal", making it more ambiguous. But in general, in situation where they've clarified what they mean by normal (including FAQ, Sage, etc.). I'm curious whether there is any situation where game designers have asserted that the word "normal" should be interpreted in a particular way.

[Hirax]

Ah. Well, not in all the discussion I've ever seen. I too would love to see proof one way or the other, but am convinced at this point that it doesn't exist. This is as close as you get, from the 3.5 FAQ:

Question: "The mass lesser vigor spell has a fixed range (of 20 feet),
which makes it eligible for the revised Persistent Spell feat
in PG. Does that mean a 17th-level druid could use a 9thlevel
spell slot to give nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24
hours, or does the built-in limit of 25 rounds make that
pointless?"
Answer: "Unlike Extend Spell, Persistent Spell replaces a spell’s normal
duration with a new duration of 24 hours. In this case, the
effect overrides the normal maximum duration of the spell, so it
would indeed grant nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours (a
pretty reasonable effect for a 9th-level spell)."

[kardar233]

So, I'm going to try to deal with all your posts in whatever order:

The Extend+Persist thing was approved by Lorddrake, so regardless whether it's RAW or not, it's in.

I'll check those lists, Anthrowhale. I'll take Beastland Ferocity and Divine Protection off, but I'm keeping Mind Blank for the immunity to Divinations. I've actually got three sources of immunity to Mind-Affecting, being a Bone Knight and having Sublime Revelry and Mind Blank up.

Beastland Ferocity is unnecessary anyway as I can still act in lethal damage due to my Bone Knight levels.

Person_Man, I have to admit that I'm not very good at playing Tier 1 characters. Putting together a list of "abilities that cover a wide variety of situations" is definitely not my strong suit, which is why when I play full-casters I usually play Tier 2. I'm a hammer kind of guy, not a toolbox. The intention of this build was to basically make an autopilot gish, who I could play without having to deal with that kind of planning. And just a nit-pick; I'm doing this using Spelldancer. Much less trouble than finding enough Turns to DMM Persist all this.

Well, I added a few things: Extraordinary Spell Aimed Antimagic Field, Hero's Blade (yay 12-20/x4 crit range!), replaced GMW with Holy Sword, Nixie's Grace (nice Cha bonus), Lightning Ring, Triplestrike, plus Srinshee's Spell Shift and Effulgent Epuration, Balor Nimbus, and a bunch of Natural Weapon and Breath Weapon-related spells for my Dragon form. I took a lot of stuff from there; though I'm still working on dealing with all the effects. There were a few spells like Inner Beauty that I skipped on because I'm Neutral, but I added some [Evil] spells like Sado/Masochism. With my damage output and effective damage-not-caring, those should help.

Other people in the party have various other methods of unkillability and are fairly optimized themselves, but maybe I should keep it to lower-power Shapechange forms.

Lorddrake; that's worrying. Very worrying.

~EDIT~ Precautions currently are a Spellblade of Greater Dispel Magic, two contingent AMFs to go off if an MDJ takes out my normal one and an Instant Refuge to trigger if either I'd die with no Clone ready or I'm rendered unable to act and IHS wouldn't help. Apparently Disintegrate and possibly some other spells can bypass the Delay Death trick, so any good candidates for my Spell Immunity?

[Hirax]

Ditch ebon eyes and grab superior darkvision instead. Note that ebon eyes doesn't actually illuminate darkness, it just makes it so magical darkness and non-magical darkness are the same thing, basically. Regular illumination rules still apply. Superior darkvision has an hours/level duration, so you only need to extend it and you're all set.

edit: if you want to have some fun eating brains, persist flaying tendrils, extend tentacles, fearsome grapple, and heroics (improved grapple).

[Cruiser1]

I don't have time to compare lists at the moment, but I'm curious: how much of the Team Solars list did you copy, and what, if anything, have you added to it that I left out?
Using Incantatrix (combined with Body Outside Body cheese to avoid per day limits) to persist infinite spells is generally better than Spelldancer (although the latter is still extremely powerful of course! :smallwink:) Spelldancer is not allowed to persist Necromancy and Evocation school spells, so it misses a certain percentage of buffs. For example, you can't persist Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) with a Spelldancer since it's Necromancy. However, there are ways around this limitation, e.g. the Spelldancer will want to instead persist Life's Grace (SpC), a 5th level Abjuration spell that's basically Death Ward one level later with a few extra goodies.

The Team Solar buffing is pretty clever if you look over it. :smallcool: For example, you don't want to persist the powerful buff Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), because that suppresses all mind-affecting spells, including your own buffs. Instead persist Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED) which is basically the same except it explicitly says it doesn't suppress buffs already in place. (Empyreal Ecstasy doesn't protect against divinations, but use other buffs like Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) for that.) Doing this allows you to pick up juicy Enchantment spells such as Greater Heroism, Prayer, Good Hope, Harmonic Chorous (SpC), Elation (BoED), and Snowsong (Frost). :smallbiggrin:

[Zherog]

Ah. Well, not in all the discussion I've ever seen. I too would love to see proof one way or the other, but am convinced at this point that it doesn't exist. This is as close as you get, from the 3.5 FAQ:>>snipperooski<<

Yeah, I don't know of anything hard and fast one way or the other. One problem, I think, is that Extend Spell exists in the core rules, long before Persistent Spell was published.


The Extend+Persist thing was approved by Lorddrake, so regardless whether it's RAW or not, it's in.

Fair 'nuff. That makes the point moot for this thread, so I'm certainly willing to let it go.

[Douglas]

The Team Solar buffing is pretty clever if you look over it. :smallcool: For example, you don't want to persist the powerful buff Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), because that suppresses all mind-affecting spells, including your own buffs. Instead persist Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED) which is basically the same except it explicitly says it doesn't suppress buffs already in place. (Empyreal Ecstasy doesn't protect against divinations, but use other buffs like Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) for that.) Doing this allows you to pick up juicy Enchantment spells such as Greater Heroism, Prayer, Good Hope, Harmonic Chorous (SpC), Elation (BoED), and Snowsong (Frost). :smallbiggrin:
And that's exactly why Team Solars doesn't have Mind Blank - too many good buffs are [mind-affecting].:smallbiggrin:

Including quite a few of the ones on kardar233's list, now that I check. You might want to remove Mind Blank to fix that, kardar233.

[Anthrowhale]

Ditch ebon eyes and grab superior darkvision instead. Note that ebon eyes doesn't actually illuminate darkness, it just makes it so magical darkness and non-magical darkness are the same thing, basically. Regular illumination rules still apply. Superior darkvision has an hours/level duration, so you only need to extend it and you're all set.


I think you want both, because Superior Darkvision doesn't work in magical darkness.

[Hirax]

Bah, there's one out there somewhere that does. Ah well, either way, ebon eyes alone isn't ideal.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For the Energy Immunity x5, you can get a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend to cast that x3 every other day for 48 hours per day, and then cast it x2 plus Superior Resistance on the days in between with the rod, for three 6th level spell slots per day. You can reduce it to two spell slots per day with a 6th level Pearl of Power.


Regarding Extend + Persist and 'normal duration' you can look at the rules on spontaneous casters using metamagic feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) and consider its interaction with Quicken Spell:

"If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell."

Note that if the spell's 'normal casting time' is less than a standard action, i.e. Feather Fall, Wraithstrike, or any other swift-action spell, then this does not apply to it as it only affects spells whose 'normal casting time' is 1 standard action or longer. If a metamagic feat could change a spell's 'normal casting time' or 'normal duration' then spontaneous casters should be able to use Quicken Spell unhindered, as it would reduce the casting time to less than a standard action thus making this rule inapplicable. This is not the case however, the 'normal casting time' is the printed casting time, unmodified by other factors, and just the same a spell's 'normal duration' is its printed duration, not one that's modified by Persistent Spell or any other effects.

[Anthrowhale]

Regarding Extend + Persist and 'normal duration' you can look at the rules on spontaneous casters using metamagic feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) and consider its interaction with Quicken Spell:


The "Special" part of quicken spell implies that the interaction of Quicken and spontaneous casting is an exception to whatever the default rule should be.

Also, it says that: "... applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action." which implies your interpretation of spontaneous+meta+free action casting time or spontaneous+meta+immediate casting time is not correct. Note that this does not contradict the text discussing spontaneous+meta generally because that text does not address shorter than standard casting times.

On another subject, I just read through the "investiture" spells in Nine Hells. They seem potentially interesting for Persistence.

The best example seems to be Hellfire Engine which gives you the benefits of Iron Body + an 8d10 breath weapon that no one is immune to. Read literally it gives the _benefits_ of Iron Body without the (significant) _drawbacks_.

Chain devil is also cool: Reach+5' and an extra AOO.

Orthon is fun: an extra immediate action dimension locks to 20' range.

[lorddrake]

Why am I thinking that checking this list of persisted spells will take me a whole year? :smallfrown:

[Dictum Mortuum]

Swift haste!

[kardar233]

Using Incantatrix (combined with Body Outside Body cheese to avoid per day limits) to persist infinite spells is generally better than Spelldancer (although the latter is still extremely powerful of course! :smallwink:) Spelldancer is not allowed to persist Necromancy and Evocation school spells, so it misses a certain percentage of buffs. For example, you can't persist Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) with a Spelldancer since it's Necromancy. However, there are ways around this limitation, e.g. the Spelldancer will want to instead persist Life's Grace (SpC), a 5th level Abjuration spell that's basically Death Ward one level later with a few extra goodies.

The Team Solar buffing is pretty clever if you look over it. :smallcool: For example, you don't want to persist the powerful buff Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), because that suppresses all mind-affecting spells, including your own buffs. Instead persist Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED) which is basically the same except it explicitly says it doesn't suppress buffs already in place. (Empyreal Ecstasy doesn't protect against divinations, but use other buffs like Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) for that.) Doing this allows you to pick up juicy Enchantment spells such as Greater Heroism, Prayer, Good Hope, Harmonic Chorous (SpC), Elation (BoED), and Snowsong (Frost). :smallbiggrin:

Hmm. I'll remove Mind Blank and Sublime Revelry and replace them with Empyreal Ecstasy. I didn't use Incantatrix partially because I didn't have a good way of getting Body Outside Body and also because it takes a three-level investment which I didn't want, as I'm stretching myself thin with RKV, Bone Knight, Dweomerkeeper and Iot7V.

Argh, I'm going to have to check through all my buffs to make sure they aren't Evocation or Necromancy. I have plenty of Turn attempts though, so if there's any really important Evocation or Necromancy buffs I might be able to swing DMM: Persist as well.


And that's exactly why Team Solars doesn't have Mind Blank - too many good buffs are [mind-affecting].:smallbiggrin:

Including quite a few of the ones on kardar233's list, now that I check. You might want to remove Mind Blank to fix that, kardar233.

Done. Getting Nondetection to deal with Diviners.


For the Energy Immunity x5, you can get a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend to cast that x3 every other day for 48 hours per day, and then cast it x2 plus Superior Resistance on the days in between with the rod, for three 6th level spell slots per day. You can reduce it to two spell slots per day with a 6th level Pearl of Power.

I might do that if it's necessary, but I've got plenty of slots to burn.


On another subject, I just read through the "investiture" spells in Nine Hells. They seem potentially interesting for Persistence.

The best example seems to be Hellfire Engine which gives you the benefits of Iron Body + an 8d10 breath weapon that no one is immune to. Read literally it gives the _benefits_ of Iron Body without the (significant) _drawbacks_.

Chain devil is also cool: Reach+5' and an extra AOO.

Orthon is fun: an extra immediate action dimension locks to 20' range.

Thanks for the reference. I might as well use 'em all, as I'm immune to Fatigue and Exhaustion.

[Anthrowhale]

A couple details:

I don't know of any immunities granted by Bone Knight that can't be granted by persistent spell. You could potentially scavenge many levels for use by other interesting prestige classes.

I also don't know any reason to have both Ocular and Reach for Persist purposes. As far as I can tell, Ocular is as good or superior.

[kardar233]

Without Reach, Touch spells are unavailable. Believe it was errata'd.

Bone Knight's immunities can't be dispelled, and with (Su) Delay Death only Disjunction and very few other things will take him down. Anyways, I don't know any other Divine PrCs that would be worth exchanging it for.

~EDIT~ I updated the list with new spells and removed the objectionables. Any good feats to get through Heroics?

~EDIT2~ You're right, as far as I can see Ocular works on touch spells too, so that frees up another feat.

[Anthrowhale]

Bone Knight's immunities can't be dispelled, and with (Su) Delay Death only Disjunction and very few other things will take him down.


Ex immunities are nice, but you are relying on the Disjunction not coming through, because your caster level is high enough to resist all dispels. Disjunction will also wipe out your defenses anyways, whether or not a few of them happen to be Ex.

Freeing up 8 levels and focusing on counterspelling or countercasting Disjunction seems like a good call.



Anyways, I don't know any other Divine PrCs that would be worth exchanging it for.


The obvious choices are more Dweomer Keeper (so you can cast more free expensive spells/day), or Hathran (for Circle Magic). Hathran is setting specific and requires an alignment change, but that gives you +4(sacred) to Dex and Chr. Any class-based approach that helped Disjunction-proof you would also be compelling.

Anyspell+Triadspell -> Heroics is quite effective, although you might consider echoing spell instead. The Beholder Mage has a list of good fighter feats. If you get circle magic, you consider adding the Mage Slayer tree in complete Arcane.

[kardar233]

I'm not really seeing what I could do to help counterspell Disjunction past what I've got already, which basically is relying on a Ring of Spell-battle and BMP to try and make sure I can get the counterspell off. ~EDIT~ I can, however, Triadspell AMF.

And actually, my CL is only 28 at the moment. I'd have to buff it a hell of a lot more to get things un-dispellable.

Fairly sure Hathran will be out.

[Hirax]

Halruaan elder might be a better alternative to get circle magic. It still has a 2 feat tax, but both feats are ok (one is a small CL boost, the other is +3 to spellcraft), and in 5 levels it gets you circle magic, metamagic reducers, and free signature spells.

[kardar233]

Halruaan elder might be a better alternative to get circle magic. It still has a 2 feat tax, but both feats are ok (one is a small CL boost, the other is +3 to spellcraft), and in 5 levels it gets you circle magic, metamagic reducers, and free signature spells.

Circle magic is nice, but my followers are unavailable, and while I may be persisting almost as many spells as there are days in the year I draw the line at Simulacrums.

[Hirax]

Fair enough. In that case, comb this list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level) so you can cast your buffs at a higher CL, at least. A master abjurer/7fold veil with planar touchstone gets +13 to dispel checks, and there are a few additional +2s from other places that can get that higher. Depending on what you're worried about facing, you might gear up against regular kinds of dispel magic, especially chain dispel, which has a cap of +25 for CL. At least I think it's chain dispel. I know there's one out there with a +25 cap.

[kardar233]

That would be Reaving Dispel.

As an Iot7V, I've got an effective +7 to CL for my Abjurations, making them CL 37. More than half of my buffs are Transmutations and Enchantments though.

Most of those aren't very helpful, due to /day limits, spell type limits or similar. I've already spent feats on 2 editions of Practiced Spellcaster and Elder Giant Spellcasting, getting me to CL 30. I don't have much more room, feat-wise. Getting an Orange Ioun Stone gets me to CL 31, protecting me from normal Dispel Magic.

I've got a Spellblade that I haven't decided on what to attune it to, as well. Reaving Dispel seems like a good choice, though I'm worried that anyone who's going to try dispelling me is just going to go for Disjunction.

Speaking of which, even though I'm protected by an AMF, it doesn't affect me (due to ESA) so would it protect me from targeted spells like Dispel Magic? Otherwise I might have to just put up an Indigo warding and hope nobody pulls a Daylight.

[Hirax]

Don't dismiss 1/day things too much, they can be great for things such as algid enhancement. Those 1/day buffs are also great if you're willing to use greater consumptive field. Buy yourself some bags of tricks to feed your consumptive fields, and your CL and strength score will benefit greatly. If that's not too overtly evil. :smallbiggrin:

[Anthrowhale]

Speaking of which, even though I'm protected by an AMF, it doesn't affect me (due to ESA) so would it protect me from targeted spells like Dispel Magic? Otherwise I might have to just put up an Indigo warding and hope nobody pulls a Daylight.

No, it doesn't protect. AMF with a hole does not block line of effect. All it will do is debuff melee attackers and your melee attacks.

To deal with Disjunction, I'd suggest some combination of Ghostform or Permeable Form + hiding underground + super senses. If you are incorporeal and hiding inside a rock, you should be hard to find, and even if you are found a burst effect shouldn't touch you.

You might also look into Otiluke's suppressing field, although that's only really useful if you can jack up your caster level a bit more. DMM(Persist) Consumptive Field might help.

Also, Incantatrix 3 gives a generally more efficient persist path than DMM.

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks for any help. Let's see... a few questions:
Do you have a counter for Disjunction and related effects?
Do you have a same-day recovery plan for after being successfully hit with a Disjunction (or related effects) and all your buffs are stripped from you?

I generally find that if I'm playing a character dependent on long-duration buffs, it behooves me to be able to replace them when they go away....

[lorddrake]

Let's see... a few questions:
Do you have a counter for Disjunction and related effects?
Do you have a same-day recovery plan for after being successfully hit with a Disjunction (or related effects) and all your buffs are stripped from you?

I generally find that if I'm playing a character dependent on long-duration buffs, it behooves me to be able to replace them when they go away....

Good one. I'd listen to Jack_Simth if I were you.

[kardar233]

Let's see... a few questions:
Do you have a counter for Disjunction and related effects?
Do you have a same-day recovery plan for after being successfully hit with a Disjunction (or related effects) and all your buffs are stripped from you?

I generally find that if I'm playing a character dependent on long-duration buffs, it behooves me to be able to replace them when they go away....

I'm Triadspelling Antimagic Field, which means you'd have to have a fairly absurdly high CL to get through all three AMFs. I also have a Ring of Spell Battle and Battlemagic Perception up, which should give me good chances to counterspell a Disjunction. Furthermore, I have two Contingent AMFs to go off if I'm left unprotected.

Same-day recovery? I'd say I could add another Instant Refuge effect, stating "if I am successfully affected by any effect that would remove any or all of the beneficial spells affecting me", as it'll whisk me back to any place I've been before, which in this case would probably be my Dream Plane. There I can chill for as long as I want before Dream Walking out.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm Triadspelling Antimagic Field, which means you'd have to have a fairly absurdly high CL to get through all three AMFs. I also have a Ring of Spell Battle and Battlemagic Perception up, which should give me good chances to counterspell a Disjunction. Furthermore, I have two Contingent AMFs to go off if I'm left unprotected.

Same-day recovery? I'd say I could add another Instant Refuge effect, stating "if I am successfully affected by any effect that would remove any or all of the beneficial spells affecting me", as it'll whisk me back to any place I've been before, which in this case would probably be my Dream Plane. There I can chill for as long as I want before Dream Walking out.

Triadspell only works on L3- spells.

But, that's useless anyways as an AMF that excludes you will not block a Disjunction from stripping off all your buffs.

The most important thing you can do is nail down exactly what your weaknesses are so you know how to avoid them.

[kardar233]

Hmmm.

Weaknesses:
1. Dispel Magic and all its family.
2. Disjunction.
3. Effects that bypass Delay Death (such as Disintegrate).
4. Effects that bypass Immunities (Searing Spell, Piercing Cold, don't know what else)
5. Things that can't be killed by my physical attacks (buffed as they are), my Gaze attacks (from spells) or my Breath Weapons (using immunity-penetration).

Since I am an Initiate of Mystra, I guess I could put the Antimagic Fields on me proper, but that has a couple of problems:
Firstly, I can't use my Iot7V defenses if I do that.
Secondly, I lose access to my magic items. However, since I'm being supplied by a Psionic Artificer I could ESA my Null Psionics Field and keep them.

I can protect against one type of targeted, non-Spell Resistance-allowing spell using my Spellblade. Reaving Dispel seems like a good choice. I can continue this by trying to pump my CL up to 41 (which seems unlikely without Circle Magic), protecting me against Greater Dispel Magic. I don't know of any good ways to protect against Dispelling, so I'll leave that open.

I can protect against 3 (and possibly 4, depending on the spell) by using my Spell Immunity on select spells, such as Disintegrate.

2 I'm protecting against just with Antimagic Field buffers, assuming I'm including myself in them. I could just keep one up and then have a few on Contingency in case I'm targeted with a Disjunction. Also, in case those don't succeed, I'll have my Instant Refuge up to send me to dreamland.

5 is a very small category, consisting mostly of Anthrowhale's creations and replicas of myself. However, I should pack a Disjunction or two of my own in case someone does the same thing.

[Jack_Simth]

But, that's useless anyways as an AMF that excludes you will not block a Disjunction from stripping off all your buffs.Well, this depends on whether or not an Antimagic Field is considered to block line-of-effect for spells (which is somewhat debated as it's not specified in the actual rules). If it doesn't block Line-of-effect, then yes it does. Which is, to say, he'd need to ask the DM to rule in favor of a tactic that makes him more difficult to hurt.

Likewise, the Ring of Spell Battle is limited to spells cast within 60 feet of the bearer, Battlemagic Perception works against spells cast within 100 feet. That opponent 105 feet away? Doesn't do anything against his spells. Disjunction will need a little work to reach him safely (Close range, so that needs to be Enlarged, or the caster level needs to be boosted a bit), but reach it can.

And, of course, there are ways to do a Disjunction such that it's not a spell proper, in which case, the assorted defenses aren't going to do diddly.

Oh yes, and for Battlemagic Perception to counterspell... you still need something to counter it *with*. Which means Disjunction, or at least Greater Dispel Magic.

[Anthrowhale]

(1) is best dealt with via CL boosts. Consumptive Field should be able to jack your caster level to 45 fairly easily given a CL30 casting.

For (2) I recommend paranoia. AM-field is nice for suppressing nearby Disjunctions. You might go for: Otiluke's Suppressing Field (Abjuration) to extend the zone of exclusion a bit. And a Maximized Empowered Widened End to Strife provides a 160' range zone of hurt to anyone not immune to mind-affecting, or magically immune that enters your AMF. And incorporeality, so you can take advantage of terrain. And BM Perception. And the divine feat for countering spells. And a high spot + high Knowledge to to spot monster types. And a set of flee spells. And don't rely on magic items much.

My reading of AM is that it blocks casting a Disjunction within it's range, but it does not block the burst of a Disjunction.

(3) and (4) can be dealt with via a regenerating form + immunity to nonlethal.

For (5), just make sure you can flee well.

(6), enemy AM. The impact of this with IoM is unclear, but plausibly it's a "you lose" if the caster level of the enemy AM is high enough.

(7) Holy Word & company. Spell Immunity is the way to go.

[Hirax]

Well, this depends on whether or not an Antimagic Field is considered to block line-of-effect for spells (which is somewhat debated as it's not specified in the actual rules).

It does not block LoE, it's explicitly stated in the Rules Compendium.