(PF) Magus with Aldori sword - viable?

[Maquise]

I have a character concept for a magus who uses an Aldori dueling sword. I was wondering how viable as a build this is, and the best way to go about it. For race I'm thinking either human or elf (I know an elf magus will be fragile, and am willing to accept it. If it turns out elves are too feat-starved, I'll save the Aldori sword for a human and stick to an elf with a scimitar.)

[Person_Man]

What's an Aldori dueling sword?

[Maquise]

It was added in the Inner City World Guide, and is available on the SRD.
It's an exotic weapon, same stats as a longsword, but with weapon finesse. You can power attack with it as well, and you can take the feat Aldori Dueling Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/aldori-dueling-mastery) (I'm not sure if its worth it for the magus due to the prereqs).

[jmelesky]

Well, you need:


Exotic Weapon Proficiency (possibly skippable if you don't care about Weapon Finesse)
Weapon Finesse
Quick Draw
Weapon Focus
Aldori Dueling Mastery

And the benefits are: +2 Init, +1 or +2 to AC, and ability to deal piercing, while wielding a particular d8 slashing weapon. And the earliest you'll get it, assuming human and skipping the EWP, is 5th level (unless you get Weapon Focus from Kensai, in which case you'll need that AC bump because you can't wear armor). If you're an elf, and taking EWP, it's not till 7th.

*shrug* It's viable (especially with a human bonus feat), i'm just not sure if it's good. One of the benefits of that sword is that you can two-hand it, which you pretty much never want to do as a Magus (you need a hand free to simul-cast).

[Maquise]

I was shooting for the ability to 2-hand power attack whenever spellcasting wasn't a good choice, but still be decent one-handing whenever it was.

[jmelesky]

I was shooting for the ability to 2-hand power attack whenever spellcasting wasn't a good choice, but still be decent one-handing whenever it was.

In that case, it's worth remembering that any one-handed weapon can be wielded with two hands for the extra strength bonus (and power attack bonus). You can't do that with light weapons, though, so Finesse might not be an option. On the other hand, rapiers are Finesse-able, and one-handed, so that would work fine (if somewhat silly-looking).

EDIT: All that said, if you want to play it with an Aldori sword, go for it -- it's a neat idea. Just wanted to let you know the costs before going in.

[Fax Celestis]

I was shooting for the ability to 2-hand power attack whenever spellcasting wasn't a good choice, but still be decent one-handing whenever it was.

You know you can do that with a regular longsword, right?

[Person_Man]

Well, you need:


Exotic Weapon Proficiency (possibly skippable if you don't care about Weapon Finesse)
Weapon Finesse
Quick Draw
Weapon Focus
Aldori Dueling Mastery

And the benefits are: +2 Init, +1 or +2 to AC, and ability to deal piercing, while wielding a particular d8 slashing weapon. And the earliest you'll get it, assuming human and skipping the EWP, is 5th level (unless you get Weapon Focus from Kensai, in which case you'll need that AC bump because you can't wear armor). If you're an elf, and taking EWP, it's not till 7th.

*shrug* It's viable (especially with a human bonus feat), i'm just not sure if it's good. One of the benefits of that sword is that you can two-hand it, which you pretty much never want to do as a Magus (you need a hand free to simul-cast).

So, five feats? There doesn't seem to be any real benefit to this.

[Maquise]

Let me specify:

I'm looking for a DEX-based build. A longsword can't finesse, and a rapier can't power attack. I could go the usual dervish-dance, but I like the Aldori dueling sword.

[jmelesky]

I'm looking for a DEX-based build. A longsword can't finesse, and a rapier can't power attack. I could go the usual dervish-dance, but I like the Aldori dueling sword.

Ah, you're right about the rapier exception. I'd forgotten you can't double-fist a rapier.

Again, though, if you want to go for it, do. Just realize it's feat-heavy, and the benefits are minimal.

[Ravens_cry]

I'd prefer a scimitar with Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) personally.

[Person_Man]

Let me specify:

I'm looking for a DEX-based build. A longsword can't finesse, and a rapier can't power attack. I could go the usual dervish-dance, but I like the Aldori dueling sword.

So you want a Dex based Magus is certainly do-able. But why is Power Attack important?

My understanding is that Power Attack is nerfed under Pathfinder, and that the Magus (ersatz Duskblade) gets plenty of bonus damage and special effects from his ability to channel spells. It seems odd that you would try to get a moderate bonus to damage (Power Attack), but do so by decreasing the probability that you would hit with the superior bonus to damage (spells).

Or am I misunderstanding the Magus?

[Prime32]

I'd prefer a scimitar with Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) personally.Seconded. It needs a lot less investment.

But... if you wield such a sword in two hands you lose Dex to attack+damage and the ability to channel spells, which Power Attack doesn't really make up for.

[GreenZ]

I've actually built a Kensai/Bladebound Magus (Never had to buy any armor or weapons :smallcool:) using the Aldori dueling sword to some success. It isn't all powerful but it's not weak by any means.

Being Kensai you get proficiency with a single martial or exotic weapon: the Aldori dueling sword.

You also receive weapon focus at level 1. At first level you can also pick up Quick Draw and Weapon Finesse as feats, collecting dueling mastery at level 3.

By level 3 your AC should rise to about 20 due to high Int+high Dex+Dueling Mastery alone. Your initiative should also be fairly high even without improved initiative.


Oh the other hand, using a scimitar would give you a little more damage, a bit lower AC and Initiative, require 2 skillpoints, and replace one otherwise nearly useless feat (quickdraw).


I'd say that Scimitar would be a tad bit stronger than ADS, but it shouldn't be a huge difference in power.

[jmelesky]

My understanding is that Power Attack is nerfed under Pathfinder

Changed, yes. Nerfed is debatable, and generally (in my experience) debated by people who haven't actually played PF. Also, there are a great many substantive differences between PF Magus and Duskblade, so be careful about judging one based on the other.

That said, i agree with the rest of your post. Power Attack is minor in comparison to swift-action adding "+1 flaming" to your weapon, or sending a shocking grasp through, and the Magus doesn't have nearly the BAB to burn that a full-BAB class has.

All that aside, if the OP wants to play a Power-attacking Aldori swordsman Magus, i say make it happen. It's not optimal, but most builds aren't.

[stack]

I've actually built a Kensai/Bladebound Magus (Never had to buy any armor or weapons :smallcool:) using the Aldori dueling sword to some success. It isn't all powerful but it's not weak by any means.

Being Kensai you get proficiency with a single martial or exotic weapon: the Aldori dueling sword.

You also receive weapon focus at level 1. At first level you can also pick up Quick Draw and Weapon Finesse as feats, collecting dueling mastery at level 3.

By level 3 your AC should rise to about 20 due to high Int+high Dex+Dueling Mastery alone. Your initiative should also be fairly high even without improved initiative.


Oh the other hand, using a scimitar would give you a little more damage, a bit lower AC and Initiative, require 2 skillpoints, and replace one otherwise nearly useless feat (quickdraw).


I'd say that Scimitar would be a tad bit stronger than ADS, but it shouldn't be a huge difference in power.
Except then you are then stuck as a kensai, losing spells per day AND spell recall. That hurts. It's okay if that is the character you want, but you are hurting yourself, power-wise. In fact, though I like the ideas, I wouldn't want to play any of the UC magus archetypes. Spell recall gives you too much flexibility to give up for a few small bonuses.

Also the scimitar's increased threat range is handy when channeling spells. Power-wise, scimitar is an easy choice: less feats, better threat, possibility to get Dex-to-damage at level 3.

[Ravens_cry]

Seconded. It needs a lot less investment.

My thoughts exactly. By third level, I can get it. If you want to two weapon fight ,your options are unarmed strike and maybe spiked armour.


But... if you wield such a sword in two hands you lose Dex to attack+damage and the ability to channel spells, which Power Attack doesn't really make up for.
I am pretty sure you can get power attack with a one handed weapon, you just don't get the 50% increase in Power Attack Bonus Damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat).

[jmelesky]

I've actually built a Kensai/Bladebound Magus (Never had to buy any armor or weapons :smallcool:) using the Aldori dueling sword to some success. It isn't all powerful but it's not weak by any means.

I've played a Dervish Dancing Kensai/Bladebound, myself: no money on armor or weapons means more money for belts and headbands, after all.

Bladebound is practically a no-brainer. One Arcana, and slightly lower Arcane Pool points in exchange for a free weapon that can spontaneously do energy damage instead of weapon damage? (The rakshasa has DR 15/good and piercing? Well, i guess i'll just have to do lightning damage to it, instead...).

Kensai's much more debatable, but i think it works really well, especially with high crit-range weapons (and you get an arcane pool power to increase the crit multiplier -- which is the capstone ability for fighters). It's certainly more martial than this board tends to like, but given the Magus spell list, i don't think that's a huge limitation.

In other words, Kensai might be the gishiest gish.