Joining a campaign, but can't decide on a class/race

[Talkan]

So, I'm relatively new to the whole role-playing thing. I've played in one d20 modern style game, but it didn't go very far. I am also in a dead-end campaign which also hasn't gone very far. I'm about to join in another, but I don't know what class/race to choose, and the party is pretty much complete. In the party there is a Barbarian, a Ranger, a Druid, a Rogue, two Clerics (healing based), an Enchantment-specialty Wizard, and a Warlock/Sorcerer. I've done some research on classes, but I still can't figure out what I should be.
I would like to try a caster of some sort, preferably not something with a d4 for its Hit Die, such as Wu Jen, Sorcerer, or Wizard. I thought about a Dread Necromancer for a little bit, but then I was informed that playing a character with lots of minions can get annoying in a group as large as this one. I've looked at Hexblade, but I would prefer to be a full caster over a partial caster. I don't think Psionics are allowed, and we have to be PHB standard races. I don't really care if my character is amazingly powerful. I actually prefer the role-playing to the combat. If I don't have to, I would prefer not to choose a class that someone else has already chosen. Any advice or suggestions would be welcome.

[Heatwizard]

Beguilers are illusionists, that can always be a fun time. I'm separated from my books, but I think they've got a d6 hit die.

[Slipperychicken]

Battle Sorcerer variant (search it on d20srd) gets a d8, 3/4 BAB, and some proficiencies in exchange for some spell slots. Your sorc/warlock is probably losing spell levels on warlock, so you could pick up the slack there.

[Talkan]

I guess I worded the first post badly. When I said Warlock/Sorcerer, I meant that the player isn't sure which of those two classes she is going to play. Sorry for the confusion!

Those both look very entertaining. What race(s) would you suggest for each of those?

[MukkTB]

That's a lot of people. 8 duders and you would be the 9th. With that many people I'd start thinking of how to be a force multiplier. The bard might be an option, benefiting everyone with inspire courage. Then there's some way of changing the +1 damage into +1d6 flame. Think about how many of your party members would be making melee attacks including you. Then think about buffing each of those melee attacks.

Auras and friendly area of effect buffs are good too. You might want to ask those clerics which spells they are going to be using. There could be an opening.


Alternatively you could ask the question. "If all the party roles are filled and the party is large enough to make my contribution fairly minor, what do I want to do with my time?" Pick a character idea that you like and be confident that with that many meatshields around you, you're gonna be ok playing Daisy the Flower picking Elven Ski Bum. Of course if everyone has that attitude the party is in serious trouble.


Last you could specialize very hard into some little niche and preform well there. The other players would fill in for your deficiencies but your high degree of specialization would insure that at least some times you would really get to shine.

[Heatwizard]

I guess I worded the first post badly. When I said Warlock/Sorcerer, I meant that the player isn't sure which of those two classes she is going to play. Sorry for the confusion!

Those both look very entertaining. What race(s) would you suggest for each of those?

Well, there's the traditional response of 'you can never go wrong with Human'. Aside from that, Gnomes get +1 DC to their illusions, plus the Constitution modifier and the suite of bonuses you get for being small. Whisper Gnomes get a 30 ft. move speed, which should be useful; apparently Beguilers are somewhat low-range and have to flirt with the front line a little.

[Talkan]

That's a lot of people. 8 duders and you would be the 9th. With that many people I'd start thinking of how to be a force multiplier. The bard might be an option, benefiting everyone with inspire courage. Then there's some way of changing the +1 damage into +1d6 flame. Think about how many of your party members would be making melee attacks including you. Then think about buffing each of those melee attacks.

I have no idea how Bards are supposed to work. I've read about them and asked a DM about them, but I can't seem to wrap my head around them. If you could enlighten me a little, that would be awesome.

And how would you turn the +1 damage to +1d6 flames? That sounds absolutely amazing!


Well, there's the traditional response of 'you can never go wrong with Human'.

I've always been told to avoid Humans, that they are weaker compared to the others, having only an extra feat and some bonus skill points. Is this bad information?

[deuxhero]

Play DN with few strong minions. It's a better choice anyways.

If the DM allows it, PF summoner gives one strong minion, d8 HD (note: d8 HD is standard for mid-BAB in PF, may be lowed during backport) and some spellcasting of your own.

[hydraa]

Go artificer and make scrolls for the rogue so he can outcast the wizards (and the wizards can't use the scrolls if they find him out)

dragonwrought kobold with rite of passage acid orb lesser and make it somatic free somehow so it appears you cast the orb from your mouth. Dosen't address class but can be fun to play a mini dragon

[Zale]

I've always been told to avoid Humans, that they are weaker compared to the others, having only an extra feat and some bonus skill points. Is this bad information?

Humans are considered a nice choice because they get an extra feat.

Or so I've heard. :smallsmile:

[cthulhubear]

Whoever told you that human is a crappy race is most definitely giving you false information. Yeah sure, the skill points are practically useless if you're not a skill monkey, but the bonus feat is golden.

You can turn the +1 to damage into +1d6 of flame by taking the Dragonfire Inspiration Feat. You'll have to be dragonblooded somehow, and I think the only way to get Dragon Blooded without being one of the Dragon Blooded races is a dip in sorcerer and taking Draconic Heritage. It's in Dragon Magic btw.

[gkathellar]

I've always been told to avoid Humans, that they are weaker compared to the others, having only an extra feat and some bonus skill points. Is this bad information?

Either someone was lying to you or an idiot.

Think of how many stat boosts you get over the course of 20 levels. (Hint: lots.)

Now think of how many feats you get over the course of 20 levels. (Hint: 7.)

[Aron Times]

The general consensus is that humans are overpowered compared to most races because of the bonus feat and the bonus skill points. They simply get a free pass because people think human = mundane and mundane = weak.

Over the full twenty levels, a human gets 23 bonus skill points. Compare that to other races, who simply get static +2s and +1s to their various skills. Basically, as you go higher in level, choosing human for your races becomes much better.

The sole drawback of being human is that you don't get low-light or darkvision, which is still not enough of a disadvantage to negate the 23 extra skill points and the bonus feat.

[gkathellar]

Of course, Strongheart Halflings are arguably better than humans for most purposes, and some of the races published later in the game outclass even humans. Hellbred, Raptorans, Warforged, Dragonborn and a couple of others.

[Little Brother]

Whoever told you that human is a crappy race is most definitely giving you false information. Yeah sure, the skill points are practically useless if you're not a skill monkey, but the bonus feat is golden.Yeah, humans are the gold standard for a race. It's really hard to beat them at most anything, except for niche builds, or Kobolds. The only race that I can think of that are "on par" with them in general, or near so, is Elans.

You can turn the +1 to damage into +1d6 of flame by taking the Dragonfire Inspiration Feat. You'll have to be dragonblooded somehow, and I think the only way to get Dragon Blooded without being one of the Dragon Blooded races is a dip in sorcerer and taking Draconic Heritage. It's in Dragon Magic btw.Dude. Heart of the Song, Inspiration Boost, Badge of Valor, and either a Masterwork Horn or Lute. That's a lotta bonus damage.

Also, take Pyroclastic Dragon heritage. I hear +Xd6 fire OR Sonic is nice. IC Optimization is easy. If you want to wade into melee with this(PS: It's a good idea), use Snowflake Wardance(Frostburn) for Charisma to hit, the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows(DrC), to get Charisma as bonus damage for 12K, Slippers of Battledancing(DMGII), for 30-odd thousand, +10 move speed, and replace Str with Cha to hit and damage if you move more than 10 feet, with some other bonuses, and a Crystal Echoblade(MIC), for bonus damage equal to your bard level, for 4,310GP.

Or, if you're in a casty mood, you could build a Bardzilla (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8595585), going into Sublime Chord. Be both a sorcerer AND a DMM Cleric.

This help?

[SamBurke]

I've always been told to avoid Humans, that they are weaker compared to the others, having only an extra feat and some bonus skill points. Is this bad information?

AWFUL info. Humans are pretty much the use-anywhere race. They work for anything. And that means ANYTHING.

[Dr.Epic]

Human bard. Bard's are jack of all trades so you should find something you like there. That or druid. And when in doubt about race, just go human.

[deuxhero]

Yeah, humans are the gold standard for a race. It's really hard to beat them at most anything, except for niche builds, or Kobolds. The only race that I can think of that are "on par" with them in general, or near so, is Elans.

Strongheart Halfling.

[Little Brother]

Human bard. Bard's are jack of all trades so you should find something you like there. That or druid. And when in doubt about race, just go human.Bards are NOT, nor ever will be good as a jack of all trades. Period. They are buffmonkeys and melee attackers or buffing-casters. Jack of all trades ideas are why people say bards suck.

Strongheart Halfling.Only for some builds. Anything in melee? Inferior to the human. Some things: Totally irrelevant. It can beat the human in some things, but the human is better in others. Overall, I view the human as superior. But, still, they are very near in power.

[Gwendol]

Beguiler or bard: both are fun to play, especially for those with a creative mind.

[Talkan]

All of this stuff really helps! Thanks a bunch! I think I'm probably going to go with Bard, but I have a couple of quick questions first: In which books do I find the feats/items/spells that give the bonus damage for the Bard? Which spells, starting items, skills, and feats would you suggest for a level 1 Human Bard who was going to be buffing their allies? Or would another race be better for this type of Bard?

[DoctorGlock]

Also consider cloistered cleric as a full caster. Along with bard and beguiler you get a fair number of skill points to tinker with (and as an RP focus of combat focus I find skill points to be a wonderful asset) on top of a potent chassis.

[Daftendirekt]

All of this stuff really helps! Thanks a bunch! I think I'm probably going to go with Bard, but I have a couple of quick questions first: In which books do I find the feats/items/spells that give the bonus damage for the Bard? Which spells, starting items, skills, and feats would you suggest for a level 1 Human Bard who was going to be buffing their allies? Or would another race be better for this type of Bard?

If you want to just focus on buffing mainly, but not doing much attacking yourself, here's what you do:


Dragonfire Inspiration feat, from Dragon Magic page 17. Instead of the +1 to hit and damage that normal Inspire Courage gives you, it gives an equal amount of d6s of fire damage to everybody that hears your epic dragonsong. Note: to get this feat as a human you have to be a "Silverbrow Human", found on Dragon Magic page 6. This gives you the Dragonblood subtype which you need for Dragonfire Inspiration.
The Inspirational Boost spell from Spell Compendium, page 124. Cast it right before you start performing to increase the bonus your Inspire Courage gives by +1. Awesomely, it's a level 1 spell, so take it right off the bat.
Words of Creation feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Assuming you're going straight bard, you can't get this feat until level 6, and you need 15 INT and CHA to get it. Also, since it's an exalted feed, your character would have to be a goodie-good. Basically, you take non-lethal damage to make your Inspire Courage even better. Feat is on page 48, details of how it works are on page 31-32.
Song of the Heart feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting, page 60. You need to be level 3 to take this feat, due to its requirement of 6 ranks in Perform. The important thing it does for you is give your Inspire Courage yet another +1.


So, basically, you'll want Dragonfire Inspiration as your level 1 feat, Song of the Heart as your level 3 feat, and Words of Creation as your level 6 feat (assuming you're willing/able to be a goodie-good to take Words of Creation).

NOTE: As stated in the Player's Handbook, the effects of Inspire Courage last for 5 rounds after you stop playing, and most combats only last that long anyway. Additionally, you can stack the effects of songs. So, a good strategy would be on the first turn to activate either "normal" inspire courage for +X to hit and damage or dragonfire inspiration for Xd6 fire damage, and then on your second turn do the other one, giving your (huge) party (huge) bonuses to damage and watching as they enjoy decimating your enemies.

ADDITIONAL NOTE: Stacking music is tough at low levels since you don't have that many uses of bardic music, so if a fight looks like it won't be too hard, it may be wise to only use one instead of both.