[PF] Quicken spell and Sorcerers

[Cicciograna]

I'm currently playing a Sorc in a PF core-only game. I read many handbooks for the class, and all of them insist on the greatness of Quicken spell.
While I understand the importance of action economy and actually realize that casting two spells in the same round can really give the edge in any fight, I find that a +4 level adjustment is way too steep, at least at low levels.

The feat begins to be available on 10th level, when 5th level spell slots become available; but then I waste a 5th level spell slot to cast a 1st level spell, and to me this makes no sense. Unless you plan to go nova and expend all your spell slots in a single fight, but again, this makes no sense to me, this is not what happens in an adventuring day (or at least shouldn't happen).

Please explain. From which level the feat begins to be useful, without giving the impression to waste resources?

[Corlindale]

Quicken is basically a requirement at higher levels, without your swift actions are getting wasted while your low(er) level slots are sitting around unused - which is clearly suboptimal.

How early to get is a bit situational. At 10 you can start using it, and though the price is pretty steep at this point I'd say it can still be worth it. There are plenty of situations where the boost you get from a quickened spell can truly save the day (such as when the boss looks like he's just about to die, but can release another devastating attack if he gets another turn - and he's going right after you. Then you throw everything you've got). And the advantage of the sorceror is that you don't need to plan for these scenarios in advance - you can apply quicken only when truly needed.

I guess Quicken would become a true staple at around level 14, when you have 5-level slots to spare. And soon after that you will probably reach the point where you're quickening a spell every single round.

[AmberVael]

For a sorcerer, I find that Quicken Spell is actually one of the last "extra action" options I turn to, for the very reasons you cite. I prefer to use Arcane Fusion, Greater Arcane Fusion, and Arcane Spellsurge, all of which have tremendous advantages over it (the fusions don't even use your swift action, and also save resources, while Spellsurge can quicken spells left and right without using up higher slots).

This being said, Quicken Spell usually does make my list of metamagic feats anyway, simply because it is very versatile.

[KillianHawkeye]

Quickened True Strike.

Because if you have to cast True Strike, you don't want to waste your entire turn doing it.

EDIT: Anyways, for a Sorcerer or other spontaneous spellcaster, you can't use Quicken Spell unless you have one of the few abilities that lets you apply metamagic without increasing the casting time.

[Runestar]

Quickened True Strike.

Because if you have to cast True Strike, you don't want to waste your entire turn doing it.

Meh. May as well use arcane fusion to cast true strike followed by orb of X, rather than quickened-true-strike followed by orb spell. :smalltongue:

Anyways, once you take versatile metamagic at 9th lv...:smallamused:

[Corlindale]

EDIT: Anyways, for a Sorcerer or other spontaneous spellcaster, you can't use Quicken Spell unless you have one of the few abilities that lets you apply metamagic without increasing the casting time.

OP plays Pathfinder, though, and Quicken can be used by Sorcerors with no problem there.

For the same reason Arcane Fusion and similar options may not be available either.

[Cicciograna]

Arcane Fusion, Greater Arcane Fusion, and Arcane Spellsurge
Game is Pathfinder. Core only, I'll add.
Edited thread title.


Meh. May as well use arcane fusion to cast true strike followed by orb of X, rather than quickened-true-strike followed by orb spell. :smalltongue:

Anyways, once you take versatile metamagic at 9th lv...:smallamused:
Where is Versatile Metamagic from?

[AmberVael]

Ah, how unfortunate.

Anyway, at lower levels, you probably should view Quicken spell in the way Corindale was referring. It's not about using it a lot, but about having it when you need it. Though spending a 5th level slot on a 1st level spell is a steep cost, at times, it can really be worth it.

Suddenly attacked? Quick buff to the rescue! Need to make a getaway? Quicken Expeditious retreat, and beat it as a full round action. Quicken Spell is the extra bit of damage that ends the fight before the bad guy gets another round or gets away, the opportunity to lock someone down while you blast at them or take other actions.

And it only gets better as you get higher in levels.

[Runestar]

Where is Versatile Metamagic from?
Sorry, brain fart there. I was actually referring to the rapid metamagic feat in complete mage. :smallredface:

[CTrees]

Sorry, brain fart there. I was actually referring to the rapid metamagic feat in complete mage. :smallredface:

*cough*pathfinder*cough*

[ericgrau]

It is worth it, even on 1st level spells.
1) Sorcerers have a lot of spells to blow. This may be why 3.5e sorcerers weren't initially allowed quicken.
2) Never ever underestimate action economy. In a game where a typical combat is 5 rounds and it is decided in 2-3 rounds, every little extra thing you can do helps. Ya quicken true strike + ray spell is perhaps the best one. You never know when you need to hit a foe with cover and in melee with an ally (+8 AC). But let's say you did something weaker for your first level spell, say empowered fireball + burning hands/magic missile. You still got another 5d6 on your boom which would normally only be possible with a caster a couple levels or so higher than you. So as long as you have spell slots left it's as if you're a couple levels higher or more. This is epic.

Other 1st level spells to try besides the above (best first): ray of enfeeblement, silent image, hold portal, expeditious retreat
0 level spells to try: light, mage hand (rare), open/close
0 level is much more worth it on an arcane trickster where you can double your sneak attack using damage cantrips. But even as another caster who already has quicken for your 1st level spells (which IS worth it), you might as well get the above cantrips on your spells known as well.

It's not like a wizard where you need to commit to the 4th level slot even if you don't use it; for a sorcerer each is the cost of a cantrip known which is almost free. And the few times you do need light or need to save a move action or cost a foe a move action (didn't I tell you not to underestimate action economy?) then it'll be worth the 4th level slot it cost you. Sorcerers + metamagic is nice, sort of a contract-free pay as you go plan. You only pay for what you need, nothing more, and never regretting not paying enough in the morning.

[Mystify]

quicken is so important that if I'm not playing pathfinder, deciding on a way to get it anyways become a priority. Yeah, quicken is expensive, but it is worth it. Especially for sorcerer. A. you have the extra spell slots to spend on it B. you are spontaneous, so you can quicken what you need, as you need it, without cutting into your flexibility. A wizard has to guess what spell he'll need quickened in the morning.

[Alefiend]

Quicken is handy. That's why I'm such a fan of metamagic rods that grant it. They're useful for any caster class, prepared or spontaneous.