Epic low-tier class

[Orzel]

Let's say there is a world with no (caring) dieties, archfey, demon lord, princes of hell, etc. In place were a lot of epic former adventurers. The Abyss run by epic bards and rangers. The Celestial planar armies are led by paladins.

As for the full casters, they are consumed with study, desperately trying to find the dirties through, or doing something else that would halt their leveling after level 24 or so.

With a larger amount of levels, gold, items, and followers, how much would I have to give and what would I have to do to make not extremely optimized, low tier, core class and prestige class, epic characters to threaten any equally optimized, low epic full casters?

What would the barbarian that worries a low epic wizard look like?

[Tyndmyr]

If you go outside of core...

Truenamer.

Buy a belt of battle and some wands/scrolls and rock out. I suggest a scroll laden with piles of greater celerities and being polymorphed into a dire tortoise, and a wand of wings of cover.

Find a wizard, utilize the usual tricks to go first, pop the belt of battle, gate in a solar, and blast him with an unstoppable dispel(this step may require repetition depending on target). Spend the rest of the time drinking coffee.

The barbarian that worries either this char or the low epic wizard doesn't exist.

[Lord Ruby34]

Yeah, if the Wizard has Epic Spellcasting it's all over for pretty much everyone.

[missmvicious]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you trying to build an un-optimized warrior-type that can beat an optimized spell-caster?

That's easy. Anti-magic field. It will take a spell or a magic item to create that effect, but take away a Wizard or Sorcerers magic and you've got a 2, maybe 3 round victory. Against a Druid or Bard, a fun fight that you will still easily win. Against a Cleric or Paladin, a tough fight that you'll still probably have the upper hand in.

Still... generally speaking, spell-casters win the day in 3.5.

You're alternative route would be the skill monkey. Rogues and Bards (talking about the non-caster variant Bard) are very nice skill monkeys that are also good at raising the funds (through adventuring and thievery/performance skills) necessary to stock up on magic items... which you'll need if you're going toe-to-toe with an uninhibited caster. Focus on equipment that provides spell resistance and energy immunity. Load up on potions that heal and buff, and wands/rings that blast and control. Put max ranks in UMD and 5 ranks in all it's Synergy skills, and you can effectively turn yourself into a faux-caster with more spells than the caster, yet still have good weapons and armor to finish the caster off with once all spells are depleted.

And sadly a Barbarian, in spite of what many great fantasy novels would have you believe, is absolutely no match for a spell-caster in D&D. The exception being if you take away a caster's spells with anti-magic properties. Then... it's a candy store, and you get to be the kid. :smallsmile:

[Shadowleaf]

Let's say there is a world with no (caring) dieties, archfey, demon lord, princes of hell, etc. In place were a lot of epic former adventurers. The Abyss run by epic bards and rangers. The Celestial planar armies are led by paladins.

As for the full casters, they are consumed with study, desperately trying to find the dirties through, or doing something else that would halt their leveling after level 24 or so.

With a larger amount of levels, gold, items, and followers, how much would I have to give and what would I have to do to make not extremely optimized, low tier, core class and prestige class, epic characters to threaten any equally optimized, low epic full casters?

What would the barbarian that worries a low epic wizard look like?Uhm.. You can't. An optimized non-Wizard can't beat an equally optimized Wizard. Anti-Magic Field will hurt the melee more than it hurts the Wizard, seeing as there are several ways around it for the Wizard, but the Barbarian's equipment won't work.

Short of Leadership, chaingating or something equally cheesy, the Barbarian (or any other non-Wizard core class) has 0 chance against an equally optimized Wizard.



I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you trying to build an un-optimized warrior-type that can beat an optimized spell-caster?

That's easy. Anti-magic field. It will take a spell or a magic item to create that effect, but take away a Wizard or Sorcerers magic and you've got a 2, maybe 3 round victory. Against a Druid or Bard, a fun fight that you will still easily win. Against a Cleric or Paladin, a tough fight that you'll still probably have the upper hand in.

Still... generally speaking, spell-casters win the day in 3.5.

You're alternative route would be the skill monkey. Rogues and Bards (talking about the non-caster variant Bard) are very nice skill monkeys that are also good at raising the funds (through adventuring and thievery/performance skills) necessary to stock up on magic items... which you'll need if you're going toe-to-toe with an uninhibited caster. Focus on equipment that provides spell resistance and energy immunity. Load up on potions that heal and buff, and wands/rings that blast and control. Put max ranks in UMD and 5 ranks in all it's Synergy skills, and you can effectively turn yourself into a faux-caster with more spells than the caster, yet still have good weapons and armor to finish the caster off with once all spells are depleted.

And sadly a Barbarian, in spite of what many great fantasy novels would have you believe, is absolutely no match for a spell-caster in D&D. The exception being if you take away a caster's spells with anti-magic properties. Then... it's a candy store, and you get to be the kid. :smallsmile:
Seeing as there is several ways of casting in an anti-magic field, countering an anti-magic field, and even several spells you can just cast in an anti-magic field, a Wizard (and much less an epic Wizard) won't be set back more than the Barbarian will.

[Psyren]

Epic Spellcasting as written is either totally ridiculous or totally useless with no middle ground. Best not to use it.

If you have arbitrarily high amounts of gold and followers, a Warlock can go toe-to-toe with just about anything since they can create any magic items they need. At epic, he'll also have the Artificer's advantage of possessing every crafting feat.

[Shadowleaf]

Epic Spellcasting as written is either totally ridiculous or totally useless with no middle ground. Best not to use it.

If you have arbitrarily high amounts of gold and followers, a Warlock can go toe-to-toe with just about anything since they can create any magic items they need. At epic, he'll also have the Artificer's advantage of possessing every crafting feat.That's not really a low-tier core class, though.

[Tyndmyr]

[COLOR="Purple"]I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you trying to build an un-optimized warrior-type that can beat an optimized spell-caster?

That's easy. Anti-magic field. It will take a spell or a magic item to create that effect, but take away a Wizard or Sorcerers magic and you've got a 2, maybe 3 round victory. Against a Druid or Bard, a fun fight that you will still easily win. Against a Cleric or Paladin, a tough fight that you'll still probably have the upper hand in.

Ahaha, no.

Epic. Spellcasting. That's not really going to matter even in the slightest.

I'll grant you, it's a mild inconvenience in pre-epic fighting. On chars that have not taken one of the many options that just neutralizes it, it means they either have to orb you(or other inst. conj.) or dispel it. This limits options somewhat. It's not going to actually put them in danger, it just means you might live for another spell if you're lucky and run into the right sort of caster.

However, uber chargers ARE good against several epic threats. So, barbs are useful in the party. Pretty terrible against the wizard, tho.

[Shadowleaf]

Ahaha, no.

Epic. Spellcasting. That's not really going to matter even in the slightest.

I'll grant you, it's a mild inconvenience in pre-epic fighting. On chars that have not taken one of the many options that just neutralizes it, it means they either have to orb you(or other inst. conj.) or dispel it. This limits options somewhat. It's not going to actually put them in danger, it just means you might live for another spell if you're lucky and run into the right sort of caster.

However, uber chargers ARE good against several epic threats. So, barbs are useful in the party. Pretty terrible against the wizard, tho.Don't forget about the whole 10ft radius emanation. Getting within 10 ft of the caster in the first place is impossible if the caster has any idea what s/he is doing.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh right. It never poses a problem to the caster's defenses. It just means he has somewhat fewer options for his attacks.

Hell, the truenamer I mentioned would glance over, dispel, send his gated solar to crush you, then spend his remaining action mixing a martini. A wizard? He'll have time for multiple martinis.

[Orzel]

So you are telling me that there is no way, even with more gold (for gear), more levels (for increased stats and more epic feats), and possible buffed by an epic cohort, for a Tier 4 or lower class character to scare a level 22-25 full caster?
Even with Epic Spellcasting thrown out?

There's got to be something a ranger or rogue could do given enough of a handicap.

[Psyren]

That's not really a low-tier core class, though.

I missed the "core" since the OP neglected to mention it in the thread title.

[Hirax]

I maintain that burial and flash freezing via undermaster and frostfell will nuke any non-caster, regardless of level. With level 24 WBL, a weirdstone removes teleportation as an option for non-casters to escape (otherwise dimensional anchor or lock are suitable), and there's no way even epic characters could make the strength check to break out of 10' of solid ice/rock. Whether they can survive inside doesn't matter, they've lost and are now a trophy.

[Elric VIII]

So you are telling me that there is no way, even with more gold (for gear), more levels (for increased stats and more epic feats), and possible buffed by an epic cohort, for a Tier 4 or lower class character to scare a level 22-25 full caster?
Even with Epic Spellcasting thrown out?

There's got to be something a ranger or rogue could do given enough of a handicap.

I suppose with enough wealth a Rogue could get scrolls of every spell at CL 20+, but that's just being an expensive Wizard.

[missmvicious]

Ahaha, no.

Epic. Spellcasting. That's not really going to matter even in the slightest.


:smallfrown:

I thought Orzel's DM was taking epic spell-casting out of the equation. I'm sorry... I was really struggling with the sentence structure. I can't help with Epic Spell-casting battles anyway. I've never played higher than L8, and have never played a Wizard of higher level than 6, so I'll respectfully bow out and leave this work to the more experienced players.

One final note to Orzel:
The best way to build a fighter-type that can take on a Wizard is to discuss with your DM about house-rules to nerf caster-types or buff fighter-types. Personally, I think you should ask the DM to nerf the caster-types, since buffing a fighter-type in such a way that they can counter something as butch as 9th level spells will just get silly. Like, way beyond Jedi...

[Randomguy]

I'd say warlock would be a good bet. They're a low tier class, but they can get shades at will as an epic feat. The level of optimization isn't too high (The biggest part of the trick is just one feat and creative spell use), so an enemy wizard with an equal level of optimization would only be allowed to use the underwhelming aspects of epic spellcasting. It would be a tough fight, but at this level of optimization I'd say the warlock has about a 50/50 chance of winning.

Against a well optimized wizard without epic spellcasting banned any warlock's kind of screwed though.

[A_S]

If you're not imposing any restrictions on the levels of your non-casters, then you can afford to give them, say, 500 Dex and 500 Str, so they always win initiative (even against Moment of Prescience), always hit (take the Mage Slayer line to avoid having to worry about Mirror Image and miss chances), and do enough damage to always kill if you hit.

Then you just have to find some way to kill somebody as an immediate action. Are there any maneuvers that let you do that reliably? If so, that's the only way I see for a non-caster to beat a caster, to do it in one round (obviously, given the massive level differential I'm assuming, this is not really a fair contest).

[Hirax]

Greater celerity+third eye clarity means they don't win initiative regardless of their dex.

[vegetalss4]

With a larger amount of levels, gold, items, and followers, how much would I have to give and what would I have to do to make not extremely optimized, low tier, core class and prestige class, epic characters to threaten any equally optimized, low epic full casters?

What would the barbarian that worries a low epic wizard look like?

characters are equally optimized then optimization favor the caster, so the most successful Barbarian would be unable to fight epic monsters several crs lower than himself:smalltongue:


seriously through, you want to find a way to make them not fail saves on a natural one, then with enough levels they could conceivably become at least powerful enough that the caster don't actually have enough resources to kill them, even if they use every spell they have.

[Eldan]

The way to beat a caster is to be a caster.

Therefore, your theoretical, say, fighter, has to spend his money to become a caster.

How? Buy an item of Use Magic Device +60 or so. Buy scrolls, wands and staff until you can cast nearly as well as a caster. Now your only problem is epic magic, which I think can't really be put into an item. Then, use all the same tactics a wizard would.

[nyarlathotep]

If the caster has epic spellcasting: no there is no way to beat them period. The closest you could come is a half-caster high enough level to also learn epic spellcasting then use various scrolls and tricks to win initiative.

If the caster does not have epic spellcasting: You need enough good and high enough UMD to have the scrolls needed to be a better wizard than the wizard.

Just saying can this not caster beat an equally optimized caster is like saying. "Can normal kids beat Freddy in the dreamworlds". No hell no. The non-caster must either be a much better optimizer or have enough money to out-wizard him.

[Telonius]

What would the barbarian that worries a low epic wizard look like?

He would have a Diplomacy modifier of +150 and be talking to a wizard of higher level than he is.

[A_S]

Greater celerity+third eye clarity means they don't win initiative regardless of their dex.

That's why I was asking about ways to kill someone as an immediate action. If you win initiative, the round goes:
-You kill them.
-As an immediate action, they cast Celerity > No You Don't
-As an immediate action, you use the Yes I Do, Sucker maneuver.
-They die.

It does require an immediate action deathblow, though, and I'm not sure there is one.

[Randomguy]

That's why I was asking about ways to kill someone as an immediate action. If you win initiative, the round goes:
-You kill them.
-As an immediate action, they cast Celerity > No You Don't
-As an immediate action, you use the Yes I Do, Sucker maneuver.
-They die.

It does require an immediate action deathblow, though, and I'm not sure there is one.

You also need a way to avoid detection via mindsight until you can get close enough to hit them.

[Wings of Peace]

That's why I was asking about ways to kill someone as an immediate action. If you win initiative, the round goes:
-You kill them.
-As an immediate action, they cast Celerity > No You Don't
-As an immediate action, you use the Yes I Do, Sucker maneuver.
-They die.

It does require an immediate action deathblow, though, and I'm not sure there is one.

Even if there was you'd have to get close enough to use it.

[Hirax]

Foresight makes ranged attacks iffy. Even if you're outside their range of detection, foresight forces an initiative roll when you attack, at which point they can use celerity. If they have no idea what's threatening them, chances are they're just going to jet.

And we haven't even touched contingencies.

[Curious]

So you are telling me that there is no way, even with more gold (for gear), more levels (for increased stats and more epic feats), and possible buffed by an epic cohort, for a Tier 4 or lower class character to scare a level 22-25 full caster?
Even with Epic Spellcasting thrown out?


No. I believe there was a thread a little while back that actually debated whether a millionth level monk could defeat a 20th level wizard. The wizard was winning.

[Heatwizard]

Even if there was you'd have to get close enough to use it.

If you've got a load of cash, you could buy a magic item of Diplomacy/Bluff +100 or something, and just talk your way into close range.

[gkathellar]

That's easy. Anti-magic field. It will take a spell or a magic item to create that effect, but take away a Wizard or Sorcerers magic and you've got a 2, maybe 3 round victory. Against a Druid or Bard, a fun fight that you will still easily win. Against a Cleric or Paladin, a tough fight that you'll still probably have the upper hand in.

Tin Hat Defense. IotSV. Initiate of Mystra. Craft Contingent Spell with a trigger of "AMF 5 feet away from me" The ways for a spellcaster to keep functioning in an AMF or prevent someone with an AMF from getting close just goes on and on and on.

[Real Sorceror]

No. I believe there was a thread a little while back that actually debated whether a millionth level monk could defeat a 20th level wizard. The wizard was winning.

Thats laughable. Even a 100th level Monk would have saving throws and armor class that would be impossibly high. The Wizard could never hope to win, even if he caught him asleep and gained a surprise round.

Are Knight, Frenzied Berserker, or Binder allowed? All these become immune to damage by epic, at least for a few minutes. So thats a start.

What about a Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a)? Those can murder casters all day, even ones that are ready for them. Honestly I can't think of a way to detect one. If you throw on the Mythic Shadow 3.5 epic destiny or the Vecna Godsblooded template from MM4....well....then you aren't even playing fair. That could wipe the planet, no casting.

[Curious]

Thats laughable. Even a 100th level Monk would have saving throws and armor class that would be impossibly high. The Wizard could never hope to win, even if he caught him asleep and gained a surprise round.


It's actually not. The Wizard always wins initiative, since he only enters combat as a dire tortoise, and he has things like celerity and time stop, so he has plenty of actions to get off lots of spells. The winning combo, if I remember correctly, was Forecage +some spell that causes a flash flood + another spell that freezes water. Forcecage does not allow a save, or SR, so the Monk is automatically trapped, and then encased in ice, where he suffocates to death. Doesn't matter what his saves are, he just dies.

[Coidzor]

That's not really a low-tier core class, though.

Tier 4. Same as the Barbarian.

Edit: As for the core, well, yeah.

[gkathellar]

What about a Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a)? Those can murder casters all day, even ones that are ready for them. Honestly I can't think of a way to detect one.

You don't need to detect them. You just need to have Contingent Celerity for when they reveal themselves.

Or, you know, live on a private demiplane and be double-astral projected into reality for invincibility.

[Real Sorceror]

It's actually not. The Wizard always wins initiative, since he only enters combat as a dire tortoise, and he has things like celerity and time stop, so he has plenty of actions to get off lots of spells. The winning combo, if I remember correctly, was Forecage +some spell that causes a flash flood + another spell that freezes water. Forcecage does not allow a save, or SR, so the Monk is automatically trapped, and then encased in ice, where he suffocates to death. Doesn't matter what his saves are, he just dies.
And thats a full of cheese RAW win. No real mage would canter about as a dire tortoise, especially not for some meta-bonus that a real turtle wouldn't have. In reality the Monk (or anything else) wins initiative.

And honestly, I think any DM with half a brain would allow a break DC on force effects to such a high level character, especially since Legendary Dreadknought can do it at level 21. And I'm sure, by level 100, that there is some way for a Monk to avoid needing to breath.

[Hirax]

Nope. Sticking to just the monk, foresight and celerity means the wizard goes first. They can then use time stop and a third eye clarity (negating daze) to shapechange into a chronotyryn for double actions each turn, forcecage the monk, bury the forcecage with undermaster, and use a weirdstone (or anything else that stops teleportation, etherealness, etc.) to keep them from jaunting out. Time stop ends and the wizard dismisses the forcecage, which causes the monk to be buried. On the same turn after dismissing the forcecage, frostfell to make their burial even more damning, because it turns all earth to everfrost. Then the wizard uses move earth to extract them in a 20' cube of everfrost, and puts them on ice in a trophy case. It wouldn't matter if they were alive or dead because they could never get out, but if you did want to kill them you could either use epic magic or a rod of piercing cold+frostfell.

[Real Sorceror]

You don't need to detect them. You just need to have Contingent Celerity for when they reveal themselves.

Or, you know, live on a private demiplane and be double-astral projected into reality for invincibility.
They never reveal themselves. In fact they can't turn off their class features. And if they grab Mosquito's Bite...well that Wizard is already dead.

edit: And what is this Celerity spell? Its not in the Compendium or the SRD.

[Hirax]

PHB2. As an immediate action you immediately take a standard action, but are dazed until the end of your next turn. Third eye clarity is the the Magic Item Compendium, and is an inexpensive way to negate the dazing.

Also, the mindsight feat means you won't get within 100 feet of the wizard without him knowing you're there.

[gkathellar]

They never reveal themselves. In fact they can't turn off their class features. And if they grab Mosquito's Bite...well that Wizard is already dead.

I'm not seeing any invisibility listed on that PrC. EDIT: And yeah, Mindsight is unbeatable.

Once more, (Contingent) Celerity + Foresight wins the day. Then you can pull Hirax's trick.

[Piggy Knowles]

And honestly, I think any DM with half a brain would allow a break DC on force effects to such a high level character, especially since Legendary Dreadknought can do it at level 21. And I'm sure, by level 100, that there is some way for a Monk to avoid needing to breath.

Well, the Epic Level Handbook did state that it's a DC 120 escape artist check to pass through a wall of force. One could argue that it extends to other force effects as well.

[Real Sorceror]

PHB2. As an immediate action you immediately take a standard action, but are dazed until the end of your next turn. Third eye clarity is the the Magic Item Compendium, and is an inexpensive way to negate the dazing.
Well thats handy. Still doesn't allow a win, though it does allow an easy escape.


Also, the mindsight feat means you won't get within 100 feet of the wizard without him knowing you're there.
VI's are permanently under an (Ex) mind blank effect.

Edit: Ok, you guys are right. Wizards are unbeatable and we just shouldn't play anything else. Rararara /ragequit.

[gkathellar]

Which doesn't give you Mindsight immunity. NOTHING give you Mindsight immunity.

And again, you don't need to escape, because there are dozens of tricks to overwhelm a non-caster without chance of failure.

[Heatwizard]

Edit: Ok, you guys are right. Wizards are unbeatable and we just shouldn't play anything else. Rararara /ragequit.

Why does everyone make the assumption that just because casters are stronger then the other options in this system, that we think the other options aren't worth playing? It's completely unrelated.

[Hirax]

Mind blank doesn't foil mindsight. And how are you escaping from being in a 20' everfrost cube?

For reference, Frostburn lists the DC to break through 5' of ice as 60, and the DMG has the break DC of 5' of unworked stone as 65. Pick whichever of those you feel to be appropriate for everfrost, and bear in mind that those DCs are given with the assumption that you're not encased in them while trying to break them. They're given with the assumption that you can get leverage, momentum, etc. So, what's the DC for 10' of everfrost while you have no meaningful ability to move? That's well into homebrew territory, but even a legendary dreadnought is going to have a tough time getting out, and it's pretty easy for the wizard to just encase you again, but in a bigger cube.

edit: And again, I was strictly talking about monks (though this is also applicable to fighters, rogues, etc.), adding spellcasting prestige classes defeats the point of the discussion.

[Randomguy]

Wouldn't mindsight detect a void incarnate? All wizards by epic levels have mind blank, so they're immune to void presence.

The only really good abilities are the improved mettle ones and empty form. All the others can be gotten before epic levels either normally or with magic items.

And they can still be detected with greater prying eyes.

EDIT: Swordsaged three ways to sunday. Yay! Early Christmas!

I vaguely remember in one of the many warrior vs. wizard builds that someone found a way to beat mindsight, but it was psionic. Would anyone happen to know what that was?

[Hirax]

Some allege the slayer's level 6 ability foils mindsight. Which is absurd when you realize that the level 6 and 9 abilities together are supposed to equal mind blank (which as mentioned, doesn't foil mindsight), and given the wording of the level 6 ability you could just as easily argue that it defeats regular eyesight as well.

[zlefin]

wouldn't it make more sense to simply work on one of the many projects that seek to balance the classes, and use one of those?
It seems easier to simply use incomplete portions of one of those than to try and make epic fighters threaten epic casters.
Or just make some utterly ridiculous caster-hosing magic items; but those would probably have to be too broken to do the job.

[Hirax]

In an actual game setting, yes. But on forums typically people want answers using the rules as written, unless otherwise specified. I think this is the best approach, because once you understand how the game works if you follow the rules to the letter, that will help you make better house rules to work around the native shortcomings of the rules.

[gkathellar]

Or play Legend. That would also work.

[Orzel]

Basically it's a fight between 2 epic NPCs and the party foolishly involved themselves in the fight to the point where it has to occur outside of background description (there are already epics playing Deadly Teleport Tag as it is). The fight has to be thought that it could go either way. This is why both sides reach out to the party. They must discover the low tier epic's master plan somehow. But I don't have one.

This combat is one of pride, the wizard most likely won't teleport away. Both epic characters are "fully roleplayed". They have a lot of "useless" feats, spells, and class skills.

So I'm guess the wizard will see the attack coming, and get off a spell combo.

So Let's adjust the question. What would I have to give the attacker to survive 3 or 4 common spell combos and chase a nonteleporting wizard?

[A_S]

By "common" spell combos, do you mean ones that are common according to the people who write the books (who seem to think that Fireball is most wizards' go-to attack spell) or common according to the optimization geeks on the boards? Cuz, if the latter, you're gonna have to come up with some way of not getting trapped in a block of ice, or else you're gonna have to find some way of going first.

[Coidzor]

A wizard can take nothing but Toughness. He still has spells. Good ones.

There is very little "full roleplaying" excuse for a wizard having no good spells.

[Shadowleaf]

Basically it's a fight between 2 epic NPCs and the party foolishly involved themselves in the fight to the point where it has to occur outside of background description (there are already epics playing Deadly Teleport Tag as it is). The fight has to be thought that it could go either way. This is why both sides reach out to the party. They must discover the low tier epic's master plan somehow. But I don't have one.

This combat is one of pride, the wizard most likely won't teleport away. Both epic characters are "fully roleplayed". They have a lot of "useless" feats, spells, and class skills.

So I'm guess the wizard will see the attack coming, and get off a spell combo.

So Let's adjust the question. What would I have to give the attacker to survive 3 or 4 common spell combos and chase a nonteleporting wizard?Why stat them out at all? :smallconfused:

And you really need to define "full spell combo". Are we talking metamagic'd Fireballs, or Forcecage+shenanigans?

The fight could go something like this:

Wizard attempts to cast Summon Monster IX.
The Barbarian ubercharges and smacks the Wizard.
The Wizard teleports out of range, and stops the Barbarian with a Forcecage. He then chugs a Cloudkill into the cage.
The Barbarian survives the Cloudkill, and charges the Wizard again, breaking his face on the curb.


However, for anyone who knows how to play a Wizard this will be nails on chalkboard.



A wizard can take nothing but Toughness. He still has spells. Good ones.

There is very little "full roleplaying" excuse for a wizard having no good spells.
Most Wizard tricks come from comboing spells, though. A Forcecage is useless by itself, as is a Cloudkill. Combined, however...

[Orzel]

Why stat them out at all? :smallconfused:

And you really need to define "full spell combo". Are we talking metamagic'd Fireballs, or Forcecage+shenanigans?

The players asked for it to be believable this time. I'm not actually stating it but I have to describe the other guy's plan. And I can't make another "stupid storm dropping wizard" so the wizard has to actually be kind of smart.

3dit: As for "full roleplaying", I mean these characters will a good amount of their resources spent on off class things and weak options. So neither will have options that would require heavy sacrifice at the level picked up.

[Coidzor]

Most Wizard tricks come from comboing spells, though. A Forcecage is useless by itself, as is a Cloudkill. Combined, however...

There's no "full roleplaying" excuse for a wizard surviving into Epic and not being able to see that either, though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No. I believe there was a thread a little while back that actually debated whether a millionth level monk could defeat a 20th level wizard. The wizard was winning.

Really? Because I posted in that thread, it was a wizard 20 vs monk 1000. The monk's touch AC was so high from the level boosts (add up to +200 untyped bonus to AC), his saves were high enough he'd succeed on a 2 (and there are plenty of ways to reroll those 1s), and he had enough jump bonus to reach the wizard no matter how high he went, asuming he didn't just buy that cloak that gives you all day flight.


Anyway, if you're doing this, it's probably a good idea just to switch to Exalted. Exalted is borked, epic level 3.5 is more borked.

[Enterti]

Thats laughable. Even a 100th level Monk would have saving throws and armor class that would be impossibly high. The Wizard could never hope to win, even if he caught him asleep and gained a surprise round.

Its not so much that the wizard could kill the monk, its that it was impossible for the monk to kill the wizard. The thread was trying to figure out if the monk could kill the wizard and there was always a way for the wizard to escape. The wizard also has access to a bunch of no-save just lose spells that the monk could not answer.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Its not so much that the wizard could kill the monk, its that it was impossible for the monk to kill the wizard. The thread was trying to figure out if the monk could kill the wizard and there was always a way for the wizard to escape. The wizard also has access to a bunch of no-save just lose spells that the monk could not answer.

What spells are those?

Really, I hear about these spells, but I don't remember seeing any.

Also, Displacement + Mirror Image + Stoneskin only gets you so far.

[Enterti]

What spells are those?

Really, I hear about these spells, but I don't remember seeing any.

Also, Displacement + Mirror Image + Stoneskin only gets you so far.

The most blatant example was forcecage and its many combos.

True, but contingent celerity followed by planeshift does. I think that one of the methods to win was actually to wait out the monk on a slow time plane created by genesis.

[Silva Stormrage]

What spells are those?

Really, I hear about these spells, but I don't remember seeing any.

Also, Displacement + Mirror Image + Stoneskin only gets you so far.

How is the monk without using spells going to get by astral projections? Just wondering

The trap in ice combo as detailed above still works.

Some of the no save just lose spells are spells like forcecage dimensional lock etc etc.

However, I still think the monk would win at that point because of his ABSURD WBL. It would be absolutely ridiculous at that point and he could have an item of at will disjunction every enemy every .1 seconds within 100 ft and it wouldn't even be 1/100th of his WBL.

Assuming the monk doesn't do that though the wizard could win.

[cthulhubear]

WBL was capped at level 20 to ensure that the monk simply doesn't take levels in umd and become a wizard with a ton of magic items. I personally think the monk would win, there would be no sr spells that could bypass that defense without resorting to extreme cheese, he'll easily pass any save or die the wizard throws at him, hp damage is entirely pointless because even things like vortex of teeth & time stop will do nearly no damage to him because he has like a minimum of 4,000 hp, and that's just with him taking the average on each roll and not including any bonus from con.

edit: Also, don't play epic levels. Everything boils down to uber wizard hax and the warrior sits there and doesn't do jack crap. This is because now everyone has the same bab, and there's only about 3 or 4 good feats for warriors and all they do is screw archery over even more than it already was.

[Curious]

WBL was capped at level 20 to ensure that the monk simply doesn't take levels in umd and become a wizard with a ton of magic items. I personally think the monk would win, there would be no sr spells that could bypass that defense without resorting to extreme cheese, he'll easily pass any save or die the wizard throws at him, hp damage is entirely pointless because even things like vortex of teeth & time stop will do nearly no damage to him because he has like a minimum of 4,000 hp, and that's just with him taking the average on each roll and not including any bonus from con.


But, as was just proven in this thread, there is no way for the monk to harm the wizard, and several ways in which the wizard can permanently disable the monk. The power disparity between them is simply too great to overcome, no matter how many levels the monk has.

[Suddo]

What spells are those?

Really, I hear about these spells, but I don't remember seeing any.

Also, Displacement + Mirror Image + Stoneskin only gets you so far.

Did you read this thread they explicitly lay-out no-save spell combos.

The thing I hate the most is the stupid Time Stop. It is the silliest spell ever and shouldn't be allowed in any way shape or form.

And isn't mind sight defeated by the monk moving over 100 ft a round allowing him to charge the wizard, of course he still loses to celerity but the wizard still has to use it.

[Infernalbargain]

Or play Legend. That would also work.

Thank you captain off-topic-and-unhelpful.

[Coidzor]

Using an alternative to the printed epic rules is usually a better idea than using them as is.

Ideally one would be able to homebrew their own epic stuff, but that's kinda tricky.

[Hirax]

Let's recap blow by blow.

Foresight+celerity means the wizard acts first. Third eye clarity negates daze.
Celerity action: Time stop.
Time stop 1: shapechange into chronotyryn for double actions (a choker is a workable core substitute), cast undermaster, pull weirdstone from handy haversack (or any other method to stop teleportation, etherealness, etc.).
Time stop 2: cast forcecage, use undermaster's souped up move earth to dump up to 750' cubic feet of earth onto the forcecage.

The monk is now trapped, and if they won initiative, they have a round to act. They can't teleport, be ethereal, etc, and destroying the forcecage dooms them. Escape artist could get them through the forcecage if they were given 10 rounds, but not through the mound of earth. Assuming they don't get out in that round, dismiss the forcecage so the monk is buried in the ensuing cave in, and in the same round cast frostfell, encasing their now buried body in everfrost. No save, no SR, no attack roll. Use move earth again to extract them in a nice 20x20x20' cube and put the monk on ice in a trophy case.

Will they die? Maybe not, but they're permanently disabled. If you do want to kill them for whatever reason then you have an indefinite amount of time to build the perfect mouse trap so that they will die. But a live trophy is more fun than a dead one anyway.

For reference, Frostburn lists the DC to break through 5' of ice as 60, and the DMG has the break DC of 5' of unworked stone as 65. Pick whichever of those you feel to be appropriate for everfrost, and bear in mind that those DCs are given with the assumption that you're not encased in them while trying to break them. They're given with the assumption that you can get leverage, momentum, etc. So, what's the strength check DC for breaking out of a 20x20x20' cube of everfrost while you have no meaningful ability to move? That's well into homebrew territory, but even a legendary dreadnought is going to have a tough time getting out, and it's pretty easy for the wizard to just encase you again, but in a bigger cube. For fun, the wizard can cast invisibility on their trophy cube and make it permanent, for better display purposes. They can continue to cast move earth to reposition you while you're inside, if they want.

And that's not even an optimized strategy. How optimized do you want the caster to be? Because I made an incantatrix in the other thread that gets an all day breath weapon that does around 1,000 damage with its breath weapon, in a combination of searing fire and piercing cold damage. If you wanted to resort to actual combat the monk would eventually roll enough 1s after running out of rerolls. You can call that cheesy, and I'll agree 100% with you, but it still shows the deck needs to be highly stacked against casters if you want a level playing field.

[Novawurmson]

Edit: Ok, you guys are right. Wizards are unbeatable and we just shouldn't play anything else. Rararara /ragequit.

This is generally the opposite of what people mean on the boards, at least in my experience; people say "Tier 1 classes are broken" to warn people not to use them in a real game, or at least to warn DMs about the inherent power in these classes. Similarly, people tend do say "Tier 5 classes suck" and suggest alternatives to help people make useful, fun characters that will work well in a party.

Perfect Example: Pun-Pun. He is not meant to be played; he is a thought experiment to show the inherently unbalanced nature of the system. No one on the boards would seriously suggest that someone try to RP Pun-Pun, but he is brought up frequent as an example of the need to not powergame to the extreme.

[Gavinfoxx]

What if the monk was a race with a burrow speed and can make the epic escape artist check to get out of forcecage?

[Randomguy]

Maybe we should start recommending builds that have a ghost of a chance rather than unhelpfully pointing out that it's a lost cause? Unless his players are members of forums like these ones it should take them a bit to find a strategy to beat an optimized mage slayer or ubercharger.


Standard ubercharger build: Barbarian with the spirit lion totem ACF (non-core ACF's are allowed, right?) that grants pounce, as well as the whirling frenzy rage ACF. With core only classes and PrC's, it would probably be Barbarian 17/ranger 1/fighter 2 or something like that, with the favoured enemy (arcanists) ACF in complete mage. Feats would be power attack, improved bullrush, shock trooper, leap attack and favoured power attack, with possibly improved sunder and combat brute as well. The tactic lets the barbarian charge, jump and power attack with the maximum penalty (taking it out of AC instead of BAB) and then full attack thanks to pounce. This means each hit deals an extra 60 damage per attack, or an extra 120 damage against an arcane caster or warlock (unless I'm confused by the d&d multiplying rules). The real "uber" part comes in if you figure out a way to do this with a lance while mounted. You can't leap attack while flying, but I think you can while air walking, a magic item of air walking would be great.

Another set of feats that most melee characters should have is blind fight, mage slayer and pierce magical concealement, to ignore the miss chance caused by spells. Pierce magical protection, if you've got the extra feat slot, is also good.

Sleight of hand is a decent tactics for rogues and bards (for both of which shadowdancer is a possible prestige class) since with a roll of 40 (easily achievable with max ranks, a skill boosting item and high dex) you can quicken a sleight of hand check and steal something from the PC's during combat as a free action. Not held items, but potions, prayer beads and bags of holding are all valid targets.

A rogue with a high UMD score can cast disjunction with an incredibly high spellcasting stat, to make the will DC's that the items have to make incredibly high.

Hide+move silently helps avoid detection, but are easily countered by divinations. Still worth a shot, though.

Escape artist is worth it to go through walls of force and other force effects.

With very high wis and int and the right magic items, a monk (only 6 levels)/duelist would have a very high touch AC as well as decent saves, which might help survival. Also stunning fist is good if the wizard's not immune.

If you include SRD and not just core only, a paladin of tyranny turned blackguard has 2*cha to saves, which helps survival slightly.
Mettle for any build would rock, but I don't know any way in core only to get it.

Archer builds wouldn't be great, but with many range enhancers they could attack from out of range of a wizard's long ranged spells and telepathy/mindsight. They'd need force bows or one of those energy bows though, so they can fire even in high wind. (Take that, wind wall!) Dwarven defender wouldn't be terrible for an archer build, if they're attacking from ultralong range.

Make sure to get magebane dispelling weapons for most of your troops.

[Hirax]

What if the monk was a race with a burrow speed and can make the epic escape artist check to get out of forcecage?

Takes 10 rounds or more (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/escapeArtist.htm).


Action
Making an Escape Artist check to escape from rope bindings, manacles, or other restraints (except a grappler) requires 1 minute of work. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a full-round action. Escaping from a grapple or pin is a standard action. Squeezing through a tight space takes at least 1 minute, maybe longer, depending on how long the space is.

Emphasis mine. The epic usages (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist) do not list different action requirements, so I see no reason to not use the non-epic ones.

[Dr.Orpheus]

Find some folks to make custom magic items and get an item with a continuous Heal spell and make something that can use a quickened greater dispel magic at will, and lastly a beed of force that has a anti magic field inside.

[Tyndmyr]

So you are telling me that there is no way, even with more gold (for gear), more levels (for increased stats and more epic feats), and possible buffed by an epic cohort, for a Tier 4 or lower class character to scare a level 22-25 full caster?
Even with Epic Spellcasting thrown out?

There's got to be something a ranger or rogue could do given enough of a handicap.

Buffed by an epic cohort? This sounds sketchy. Leadership is typically banned from these sorts of scenarios because then you just end up with both sides taking it, and playing multiple wizards vs wizard + crappy class. And that's just needless extra statting for both sides.

You will note that my original example used Truenamer, a low tier class. However, CORE low tier classes...not really.

Gold is not especially relevant. An epic spellcaster is running off a wish economy anyway. He can craft his own stuff if need be. The amount of WBL needed to make a difference would be extreme, and would mainly come down to trying to simulate a wizard with items anyhow.

Levels...meh. A level 20 wizard already has 9s. Ten more levels gives him fun options, even with epic spellcasting banned, but he already has all of the spells. Pitting him against a level 30 paladin is still going to end terribly for the pally. The extra hp and saves are mostly irrelevant. The pally gets no skills that are likely to fix things. More feats are nice...but even with epic feats, do you see a few feats that can challenge spellcasting?


If you're not imposing any restrictions on the levels of your non-casters, then you can afford to give them, say, 500 Dex and 500 Str, so they always win initiative (even against Moment of Prescience), always hit (take the Mage Slayer line to avoid having to worry about Mirror Image and miss chances), and do enough damage to always kill if you hit.

Then you just have to find some way to kill somebody as an immediate action. Are there any maneuvers that let you do that reliably? If so, that's the only way I see for a non-caster to beat a caster, to do it in one round (obviously, given the massive level differential I'm assuming, this is not really a fair contest).

While that is rather ludicrous, Celerity or Dire Tortoise still means "screw you melee, I go first". Mage Slayer doesn't fix all magical defenses. It's a start, but what about things like Ironguard and Contingency? Also, my particular favorite, Wings of Cover.

Utilizing my standard level 20 build* for these sorts of things, I'd wings of cover your charge(or abrupt jaunt/veil if preferable), contingent teleport away as a free action, belt of battle, drop a spell of choice on you then end with a force cage. Good luck with that. At best, you'll be spending actions getting out of force cages, while I get to dump a spell on you every turn, then cast another force cage.

*See the current Wizard vs Fighter thread for specs. I use the same build for all of these challenges. Adding epic levels to the build only results in further happiness and craziness.


seriously through, you want to find a way to make them not fail saves on a natural one, then with enough levels they could conceivably become at least powerful enough that the caster don't actually have enough resources to kill them, even if they use every spell they have.

There's a way to do that. Luck feats. Expend a luck point to turn a nat 1 into a nat 20. That said, you still end up capped out by luck points, and given that an epic level caster has a LOT of resources, this mostly just delays the inevitable at the cost of eating a lot of feats.


That's why I was asking about ways to kill someone as an immediate action. If you win initiative, the round goes:
-You kill them.
-As an immediate action, they cast Celerity > No You Don't
-As an immediate action, you use the Yes I Do, Sucker maneuver.
-They die.

It does require an immediate action deathblow, though, and I'm not sure there is one.

Even if this worked, this would merely result in another Celerity being cast. You still die.

Also, you need to get to him.

Also, also, Contingency.


Thats laughable. Even a 100th level Monk would have saving throws and armor class that would be impossibly high. The Wizard could never hope to win, even if he caught him asleep and gained a surprise round.

Really? How do you feel about spells such as Maw of Chaos? Save? Armor class? No, if you're even close to me, you take d6/CL damage. Every round. Per casting of the spell.

Now, I admit that killing a million level monk via straight damage would be slow...but I feel like it'd earn more style points than just taking him out via flesh to stone until he rolls a 1 or some such.


Are Knight, Frenzied Berserker, or Binder allowed? All these become immune to damage by epic, at least for a few minutes. So thats a start.

That only stops damage.


What about a Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a)? Those can murder casters all day, even ones that are ready for them. Honestly I can't think of a way to detect one. If you throw on the Mythic Shadow 3.5 epic destiny or the Vecna Godsblooded template from MM4....well....then you aren't even playing fair. That could wipe the planet, no casting.

You need not actually detect a person to kill them.

That said, the "always flat footed" would seem to be trumped by someone who is never, ever flat footed. I mean, you can still gather information about someone with this ability, after all.

Addendum: I can negate the +20 to Gather info with a second level spell. Meh.

I think you're seriously overrating the class.


And thats a full of cheese RAW win. No real mage would canter about as a dire tortoise, especially not for some meta-bonus that a real turtle wouldn't have. In reality the Monk (or anything else) wins initiative.

And honestly, I think any DM with half a brain would allow a break DC on force effects to such a high level character, especially since Legendary Dreadknought can do it at level 21. And I'm sure, by level 100, that there is some way for a Monk to avoid needing to breath.

Whatever. Don't have to be a dire tortoise all the time. Just whenever you could theoretically be engaged in combat. Init is never an issue. Literally, if you have foresight up and know celerity, you go first(tortoise not required). That's what the spells are FOR.

Calling on DM fiat does not prove your case.

Note: A DC 120 Escape Artist check will get the monk out. This should have been something they noticed. That said, I have absolutely no problem shredding the monk regardless.



edit: And what is this Celerity spell? Its not in the Compendium or the SRD.

The Celerity line is from PHB2.

I'd actually kind of like to take a level 25 build vs a million levels of monk(or rogue or pally, you get the idea). It'd be interesting.


What if the monk was a race with a burrow speed and can make the epic escape artist check to get out of forcecage?

You spend 10 rounds escaping from a force cage. It takes me half a round to make a new one. Do the math.