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View Full Version : Honor, Trust and Strength: Themes of the Rifts



Fish
2011-12-20, 02:35 PM
This is just some armchair analysis I've been noodling with regarding the story thus far, because it seems as if the major episodes of the story — the progression to each Gate — has been accompanied by a subtle shift in theme.

Though there are five Gates, I will look only at Soon's, Girard's, and Kraagor's respective themes, or what little we can know of them. Dorukan's Gate was not planned in detail from the beginning, and many of the important details are covered, as with Lirian's Gate, in "Start of Darkness."

Azure City: Honor. perhaps it's only natural for a story centered around paladins, but there seemed to be a great emphasis placed upon honor (and its opposite, dishonor). There were many compare-contrast opportunities for most of the characters, main PCs and side characters too.

Azure City was run by a man who led paladins but was not himself a paladin nor bound by their rules; he presided over a rigged trial, and was murdered by a loose cannon paladin with her own twisted code of honor and self-worship. Even the aristocracy of the city is a mockery of honor.

Roy is a particular highlight here; he at first abandons Elan to the bandits; he rides into a trap to rescue his sister; he accepts gifts at the inn to which he is not entitled; he extracts a promise from his wayward father. For many of these things he is conspicuously judged, in Heaven.

But he's not alone in his use of honor in his story arc. Haley stays behind to fight the good fight, and later engages in a debate with Celia on the nature of what is right. Belkar's murder of the Oracle triggers his punishment, which we later see lifted, possibly as he chooses to adopt a veneer of honor — and notably, whom does Belkar defeat? The Graysky Thieves' Guild and Eagle-Eye Pete, who sold them out.

Further: O-Chul befriends the MiTD. Even Redcloak demonstrates a change between casually betraying his own goblinkind to recognizing their right to live. Therkla had honor of a sort, torn between her loyalty to her master and her crush on Elan. Haley spots the tactical gambit that played upon the paladins' sense of honor.

It's not a perfect fit. Admittedly, some events don't focus well through a lens of honor. Vaarsuvius can't really be said to behave honorably or dishonorably; he defended the City until his spells ran out and he fled with the others. His bargain with the IFCC wasn't about honor, but power and personal failure. He seems to be an outlier here.

You may argue, "Of course there was a running theme of honor. There were a bunch of paladins." Or you might argue I'm fitting story events to my particular lens, rather than examining events de novo. You could be right, if so. But let's move on and see what happens once we leave behind Azure City and enter stage 2.

Empire of Blood: Trust. I could just as easily call this "illusion," or "deception," but they are aspects and opposites of trust, so let's examine the theme:

At the center of this is Girard, known to be an illusionist. Our first significant sight of his character is his recorded message, suggesting he suspects Soon of breaking his word. Girard, it seems, trusts no one. In parallel to Girard is Ian Starshine, also a devious sort with trust issues.

The whole of the Empire of Blood is not as it seems; as in Azure City, the ruler is not what she seems, although here the leader is weaker than she appears — and isn't even the leader at all. The elf ambassador is Zz'dtri in disguise. The power behind the throne, Tarquin, is so convoluted and unpredictable we don't even know whose side he's on other than his own; he knows much more than he's letting on, and manipulates people against each other.

Belkar's veneer of honor has turned slightly; now he seems keen to see his companions are buying the ruse. Elan can't believe his father is evil. Haley finally starts to show she can trust Elan (comic 681 or thereabouts). Durkon befriends a cleric of death, who assists him with his research.

I could be over-analyzing here, and finding episodes of significance while ignoring others that defy the theme. And we're nowhere near the Gate yet, so the picture is incomplete. Nevertheless, I find it interesting from a story-construction standpoint.

If I'm right about Trust as the theme for the Second Gate, this upcoming section could well be the moment that Redcloak, Xykon and Tsukiko have a colossal falling out; Belkar finally earns the trust of the Order; and we may get to see whose side Tarquin is really on. I'd also speculate that the theme requires that Xykon's phylactery is destroyed, rendering him much more suspicious — defensive and mortal — than he has been until now.

Kraagor's Gate: Strength? We don't have much to go on for the third Gate, which will likely comprise the Act III resolution of the main comic. I base this tentative guess on our clue that Serini populated the dungeon with the strongest creatures she could find. However, other themes suggest themselves. After all, Kraagor didn't set up the Gate himself; Serini did, out of love or loyalty to Kraagor, or in his honor.

Is the last theme Love? It's possible; we have several love-related plot arcs still hanging. The MiTD has a man-crush on O-Chul; Vaarsuvius may need to confront his mate; the dwarf Hilgya may meet Durkon again. Tsukiko has this weird thing for Xykon. Love also has a compelling opposite in Hate, whereas Strength is opposite to Weakness (a less dramatically interesting prospect, since Team Evil doesn't embody that opposite as it does Dishonor and Betrayal). Still, it's early going to be making guesses.

Feel free to disagree with my assessment here; this is just idle speculation.

Gilphon
2011-12-20, 02:59 PM
The whole Western continent arc seems to have a focus on paranoia, well-founded or otherwise; Girard was paranoid about Soon, Haley was paranoid about Tarquin, Nale was paranoid about the Order, and Ian was paranoid about Elan.

Though, as you say, it's pretty easy to absorb that into the larger theme of trust. We can also possibly add Sabine to the list, in light of her prioritizing Nale over the IFCC despite Qarr's objections, especially if Nale jumps to the wrong conclusion about that somewhere down the line.

Ancalagon
2011-12-20, 04:15 PM
You could also say the current arc is not also about paranoia and where it is good or bad, but also about the sudden lack of it - and where that is also good and bad.

Consider Ian who mistrusts Elan when he should do it or the Order which suddenly trust Tarquin when they should not.

veti
2011-12-20, 09:59 PM
I love this sort of analysis. Thank you.

You could also mention the cartographer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html), who explains why, on this continent, nothing is to be trusted - because it keeps shifting. ("Sand" is, of course, a perfect metaphor.)

But on the other hand...

The events you mention don't seem to align all that strongly with the gates. The episode with the bandits (which goes to Roy's honour) came before we, or the Order, even knew there was more than one gate. For events based in Azure City itself, it's not surprising that the notion of "honour" features strongly in a land of samurai and ninja. To say that Therkla was conscious of her "honour" is really no more than saying that she was an Azurite. (Ninja as a class are known for honour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html), no less than samurai.) The real outlier in that city was Tsukiko, who shows no interest in the whole concept - at least as it applies to herself, although she does instinctively expect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) people to "play by the rules".

Vaarsuvius's honour is instrumental in her reaction to being served with divorce papers. Roy and Belkar each have their honour tested in the encounter with slavers. These events happen well within the Girard's Gate sphere of influence.

Surely trust is basically the inverse of honour? Trust is what you do when you think people are honourable. So really, aren't these two themes very much the same?

Fish
2011-12-20, 11:00 PM
Now that you mention it, yes: sand is a perfect metaphor.


The events you mention don't seem to align all that strongly with the gates. The episode with the bandits (which goes to Roy's honour) came before we, or the Order, even knew there was more than one gate.
The episode with the bandits follows Comic #120 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html), which is the very first appearance of Miko (though we do not know it yet). The reason I choose that as a starting point for analysis is that it's the first strong indication I have that Rich had a solid plan in place. In any case, Roy's initial failure to rescue Elan — and indeed his attempt to coerce his compatriots into accompanying him on the starmetal quest — were actions for which Roy was judged after he died at Azure City. I feel that puts them within scope of the Gate.

... The real outlier in that city was Tsukiko, who shows no interest in the whole concept - at least as it applies to herself...
Team Evil, on the whole, do generally not obey the theme. They often demonstrate the theme in its absence, by contrast. Tsukiko made a bargain to be released from jail, in exchange for which she'd help protect the city; she did not uphold her end. (My personal suspicion is that Tsukiko is Neutral Evil, to round out Team Evil's alignment spectrum.)

Pure speculation about the future of Tsukiko:
Since she can cast divine and arcane spells, she is in a unique position to side with Xykon against Redcloak, side with Redcloak against Xykon, or betray them both. We already know she's capable of the first, because she hates Redcloak; if ever Tsukiko finds out what Xykon really thinks of her creepy necro-crush, she might be capable of the second and third too.

If indeed the Windy Valley Gate is all about trust (and betrayal) then this three-way balance could get very interesting.

Vaarsuvius's honour is instrumental in her reaction to being served with divorce papers. Roy and Belkar each have their honour tested in the encounter with slavers.
Quite possibly. It's a matter of definition; what one person calls an honorable decision, another might call resignation to the inevitable, or a stubborn stand upon principle. There may be false positives, or the themes I'm seeing may not actually be there. For instance, one might naturally always expect Roy to behave honorably since he's Lawful Good, so his choices may not necessarily be reliable indicators.

Surely trust is basically the inverse of honour?
Inasmuch as the two themes are central to the relationship between Girard and Soon, that's not surprising either.

t209
2011-12-20, 11:01 PM
I never noticed the theme of the gates until now!
Thanks, Fish.

t209
2011-12-21, 01:18 AM
Even Redcloak demonstrates a change between casually betraying his own goblinkind to recognizing their right to live.
Actually, Redcloak just hated Hobgoblins before he was saved by a hobgoblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).

Firemeier
2011-12-21, 02:36 AM
The whole Western continent arc seems to have a focus on paranoia, well-founded or otherwise; Girard was paranoid about Soon, Haley was paranoid about Tarquin, Nale was paranoid about the Order, and Ian was paranoid about Elan.

Well, it's not paranoia if they are really out to get you.

Joerg
2011-12-21, 10:25 AM
Well, it's not paranoia if they are really out to get you.

Or, the other way round, just that you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :smallwink:

veti
2011-12-21, 04:53 PM
It's not a perfect fit. Admittedly, some events don't focus well through a lens of honor. Vaarsuvius can't really be said to behave honorably or dishonorably; he defended the City until his spells ran out and he fled with the others. His bargain with the IFCC wasn't about honor, but power and personal failure. He seems to be an outlier here.

Thinking more about V: her motives were, at the least, mixed - you could make a case (not necessarily a very convincing one, mind) that her sense of honour played a part in that decision. And I think I would argue that it played a part in what happened after she rescued her family. "I still need to fix everything", she says as she rejects Inky's pleas to end the splice then and there. I'd say that's honour talking.

Thank you again for your analysis.

Beowulf DW
2011-12-21, 05:52 PM
I never noticed until you mentioned it, Fish, but it does seem to make sense. Every gate besides the first seems to be attached to themes of honor and duplicity.

Azure City contained denizens that genuinely behaved honorably, and those that simply wore a mask of honor. No one was ever really out in the open about their underhanded dealings; as long as the appearance of honor and justice is maintained, no one complains.

The Empire of Blood is an almost perfect foil to Azure City. Everyone seems to think that everyone else is out to get them, and for the most part they're right. The government is very corrupt, and they don't care who knows.

So on one side we have a city whose government is dishonest about their honor and another city that is honest about its dishonor.

P.S. I think you could make a claim that Dorukon's Gate had a theme of intelligence and cunning. "Mind-flayer vision" comes to mind, as do the many puzzles throughout the dungeon and Xykon's plan to trick the Order into opening the Gate for him.

Fish
2011-12-21, 06:56 PM
Regarding the first gate, let me defer to details in Start of Darkness:

You could say that was about power versus precision; or maybe brutality versus finesse. The defender was a wizard and the attacker a sorcerer, and Xykon demonstrated his theory of using one spell really well, versus a hundred varied tools.

Lirian's gate was about nature, which Xykon defeated by being unnatural. Or undeath versus life.

Either way, we don't really have much room for analyzing themes there, with so few character arcs.

veti
2011-12-21, 09:25 PM
Regarding the first gate, let me defer to details in Start of Darkness:

If you're looking for themes in 'SoD', may I suggest: responsibility.

When Redcloak first puts on the Crimson Mantle, he assumes responsibility for the Dark One's plan and the future of goblinkind. (Not that he means to - but he acquires the knowledge, and with that comes the responsibility.) Much of the rest of the book is about Redcloak facing up to the consequences of his decisions: to pursue the Plan (rather than Right-Eye's more pacific alternative), to ally with Xykon, to make Xykon a lich...

In retrospect, those look like some pretty bad decisions. But Redcloak never flinches from doing what (he feels) he has to do.

The paladins show us why Redcloak feels this way. In his view, they never accepted (were never made to accept) responsibility for their 'crimes' - so in his mind, his own conscientiousness shows his moral superiority to them. At least when Redcloak kills people, he doesn't hide behind an alignment "label" to pretend that his victims are vermin that don't deserve to live - no, he makes no bones about the fact that he, Redcloak, is killing people - and if there is justice in the world, he's prepared one day to answer for that.

Xykon, as ever, provides the counterpoint by refusing to acknowledge "responsibility" to anyone or anything. After Right-Eye's death, he rubs Redcloak's nose in it. We all know that Xykon would have killed Right-Eye without a thought, but since he has no feelings of responsibility it would have cost him nothing (well, maybe a spell slot); but instead he allowed Redcloak to do it, knowing fully how much it would torment him.

TreesOfDeath
2011-12-22, 04:27 PM
I thought SOD was about revenge and growing older and wiser (and the failure to do so)

Backing up the trust theme, does this help? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html

Fish
2011-12-22, 05:36 PM
I actually don't advocate the idea the gates in Start of Darkness have specific themes. That story isn't about the gates, or overcoming adversity, or a hero's journey. It's backstory for Xykon and Redcloak. The themes of the story are their themes, not those of the gates.

But yes, that comic is very much a foundation of that theme of trust — exemplified by an illusionist whose strongest power is to disbelieve, and a paladin whose strongest trait is his honor. A good transition point between themes, I'd say.

If the next theme is Love, that's well represented by Serini, who had a crush on Girard.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-22, 05:48 PM
I think Lirian's Gate is more about strength:

Magical virus that eliminates spell casting from people and you're up against nature. Really, this is a survival of strength.

Kraagor's monsters could be defeated with spells. We don't know what they are and if they're resistance to spells and powerful spells would be the best way to defeat them.

Math_Mage
2011-12-22, 10:26 PM
Soon's gate was destroyed by misguided honor. I think Girard's gate will be destroyed by misguided mistrust--can anyone say Ian Starshine? I'm betting he sees a bunch of evil groups {Xykon, Tarquin+LG, Elan+OotS} and decides to destroy the gate because he can't trust ANY of them with it. /WMG

Meanwhile Serini+Kraagor didn't seem to have anything that could be 'misguided' in this way. Which fits the narrative, if we assume the last Gate isn't going anywhere. But that part of the story has yet to be fleshed out, of course.

dtilque
2011-12-23, 03:19 AM
Empire of Blood: Trust. I could just as easily call this "illusion," or "deception," but they are aspects and opposites of trust, so let's examine the theme:
One that you missed: The OotS attempted to deceive Tarquin about them all being on the same team.



Is the last theme Love? It's possible; we have several love-related plot arcs still hanging. The MiTD has a man-crush on O-Chul;
Sorry for the hijack, but are we certain that the MitD is actually male?

Fish
2011-12-23, 03:37 AM
Well, no. But you know what I mean — it's almost like O-Chul is a beloved parental figure somehow.

Holy_Knight
2011-12-23, 04:17 PM
One that you missed: The OotS attempted to deceive Tarquin about them all being on the same team.


Sorry for the hijack, but are we certain that the MitD is actually male?
We can actually be pretty sure of that--aside from all references to him using male pronouns, he wants to start a secret club that has no girls allowed.

le Suisse
2011-12-23, 06:17 PM
you know what? The Order of the Scribble's member's used the basis of their abilities to protect their gates, and it ultimatly destroyed them.
Soon, the paladin, used honor: a spiritual and bond to a cause created by a often impossible ideal and the pride to think we're always right. He protected his Gate by himself, as a ghost, with the help of other dead paladins, because he had enough will to delay his eternal rest for his cause and because he thought than he was the only one able to do that. It was destroyed by somebody who thought doing the right thing

Dorukan used intelligence: the capacity to analyse the environment/context, to learn from the mistakes we made and to use the right tools on the right places. He protected his Gate with magic that prevented the evil ones to even reach it, knowing than the Gate's power would only be useful to some bad guy, and preventing them to use their "tools" (read: powers) against it. It was nearly defeated by a bluff skill used against some good (but not very smart) guys (using the right tools on the right places)when the Gate was proven to be out of reach (analyse of the environment/context) after than many goblins didn't succeed (learn from the mistakes), and ultimatly destroyed because of somebody thought than his knowledge of narrative devices ( wrong tool) allowed him to sacrifice a very important work (wrong place) because it was a clichι (bad analysis) when it was proven than messing with the Gate wasn't a good idea (not learning from the mistakes).

Draketooth used lie: a way to hide the real things behind a veil of convincing possibilities and to alter the view of other. His greatest weakness is than he's trapped into his own warped view of the world, using the same methods he charge others.

There's more examples, but it will be difficult to list them all.