Fighting powerful undead

[Saviour]

Heya. Straight to business:

How does one prepare to fight powerful undead? Specifically a near epic-ish undead lich caster in this case, who may or may not be gestalt. The party will be around level 11-12 (gestalt), all Goodish, when we get to the boss battle, I estimate, and we have all party roles. No artificer, but eh.

Hold anything that breaks just about any game into little pieces, but that said, I think we are supposed to fight dirty here, just to have a chance.

Chances are the lich will be in their stronghold, where our higher-level-than-us allies are held prisoners.

Ideas so far:
Disintigrate, once the wizard can learn it.
Whatever type of ability damage it was that undead are not immune to. Mental stats, was it?
...um, Heal?
That's about it, so far. So what cripples evil undead baddies?

[motoko's ghost]

Try going cleric/radient servant of pelor for greater turning 3+cha/day, boost your turn check and you can pretty much vaporise any level appropriate undead, then just the sort of holy word/holy sword/ smite evil sort of stuff, possibly grab a disrupting weapon(or use the spell,actually)

[Eldariel]

Disintegrating and Polymorph Any Objecting tend to work, except Liches are immune to Polymorph-line. You'll have to rip down magical defenses for Disintegrate to be an option, of course, which tends to be tricky against casters, especially higher level ones (especially without Disjunction).

Blunt force trauma is another solution, but that will require pinning your target down...and hoping he doesn't Shapechange and become way scarier an implement of blunt force trauma with a Gated Hecatoncheires or something for a little extra.


Though seriously, I'd just say "holy ****". 'cause the fight doesn't exactly sound winnable. A near-epic gestalt caster when you're around level 12? You're pretty effed. And he's at his stronghold? Holding higher-level-than-you allies? That just...do research on him. Unless there's some hidden weakness or you have access to tons of high power magic items, you're very, very unlikely to stand a ghost of a chance.

[rmg22893]

Heya. Straight to business:

How does one prepare to fight powerful undead? Specifically a near epic-ish undead lich caster in this case, who may or may not be gestalt. The party will be around level 11-12 (gestalt), all Goodish, when we get to the boss battle, I estimate, and we have all party roles. No artificer, but eh.

Hold anything that breaks just about any game into little pieces, but that said, I think we are supposed to fight dirty here, just to have a chance.

Chances are the lich will be in their stronghold, where our higher-level-than-us allies are held prisoners.

Ideas so far:
Disintigrate, once the wizard can learn it.
Whatever type of ability damage it was that undead are not immune to. Mental stats, was it?
...um, Heal?
That's about it, so far. So what cripples evil undead baddies?

If you have a strong melee cleric or paladin, the Divine Wrath enchantment from the MIC allows you to expend a turn undead attempt to add 1d6 damage per point of charisma bonus to your next melee attack.

Deathstrike bracers, also from the MIC, allow your rogue or fighter to apply critical hits and sneak attack damage to undead.

[motoko's ghost]

Though seriously, I'd just say "holy ****". 'cause the fight doesn't exactly sound winnable. A near-epic gestalt caster when you're around level 12? You're pretty effed. And he's at his stronghold? Holding higher-level-than-you allies? That just...do research on him. Unless there's some hidden weakness or you have access to tons of high power magic items, you're very, very unlikely to stand a ghost of a chance.

That's it, what you need to do is fly round his head and fire your proton torpedoes directly into the thermal exhaust vent before the can destroy the rebel base I mean your party. Then you can go party with really hairy gnomes or something:smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

Huge DR/bludgeoning and magic, cold, electricity and polymorph immunity, immune to fort saves that don't affect object, and most will saves. Will save is high and reflex save is decent anyway. Turn resistance. Try quickened true strike + disintegrate: it's a fort save that works against undead. Cure X wounds / heal and Acid/sonic damage might also help, though cure and acid/sonic not so much given a lich's ok HP and high will/decent reflex saves. Get the melee magic bludgeoning weapons. I'd guess about 100 HP for d12 w/o con bonus so it shouldn't be so bad even on failed disintegrates (and epic as soon as you get a successful one).

Make sure the cleric prepares multiple [quickened] remove paralysis.

Though methinks you won't actually fight the epic lich or else he isn't actually epic, only near-epic. Maybe only CR 16-18. That's actually winable with lich-specific preparation.

Besides that go with general anti-caster preparation. Dimensional anchor at the end, get the melee methods of flight like potions or boots or allied caster, etc., etc. A mass cure X spell is a good way to heal the party while taking out mirror images and doing small damage. You don't need that much damage so making sure you have attacks that will actually hit him and surviving is the main thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get the Sun domain, preferably with at least one Radiant Servant level. Get enough levels in it for the Glory domain as well.

Feats:
Improved Turning (PHB), Extra Turning (PHB)

Items:
Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG), Ephod of Authority (MIC), Scepter of the Netherworld (LM/MIC), Rod of Defiance (LM/MIC), Lyre of the Restful Soul (LM), Night Sticks (LM, optional), Cloak of Persuasion (as per Circlet of Persuasion, DMG, optional).

Spells:
Hide From Undead (PHB, optional), preferably Heightened.
Consecrate (PHB, optional), only useful if either Quickened via the feat (PHB) or a Lesser Metamagic Rod (DMG) or a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), or cast normally if you have Quicken Turning (CD), or just cast by another character.
Greater Dispel Magic from another character, or preferably a (Scroll of) Disjunction, to remove any magical buffs it may have.

Strategy:
Have someone else use the Lyre of the Restful Soul, you can even hire an NPC performer to do it. He'll need to be able to get within 30 ft. of the Lich, maybe give him potions of Invisibility and Hide From Undead.
Wear/carry all the rest of the above items, get close enough to the Lich, and use a Greater Turning (after Consecrate if you're using it). Your effective Cleric level for turning will be (12 classes + 4 phylactery + 1 ephod + 1 improved turning + 3 scepter) = 21. Your turning check is 1d20+Cha, with a +2 for Kn: Religion, +3 if using a Cloak/Circlet of Persuasion, +3 if using Consecrate, and +2 if you have the Glory domain. The Lich's effective HD versus turning will be (actual HD +4), -4 for the Rod of Defiance, -4 for the Lyre of the Restful Soul, and possibly another +8 for feats/items in LM. I doubt you would be facing a 17th level Lich if you're level 11-12, so it's a guaranteed one-shot-kill.

[Flickerdart]

Death Ward on everything is a good idea. Trying to turn him will be pointless, so spend those attempts on something useful instead.

[Eldariel]

I doubt you would be facing a 17th level Lich if you're level 11-12, so it's a guaranteed one-shot-kill.

Well, Lifeward is a level 4 Cleric spell that's relatively accessible and makes turning completely fruitless. Though it is only minutes/level so it's obviously not an all-day unless we're talking Ocular Persists.

[Anthrowhale]

I recommend sneaking in and freeing allies before fighting.

AMField is one of the best ways to screw with a higher-than-you level caster. Ideally, give it to one of your fighters and make tactical use, stripping off debuffs or otherwise providing a zone of safety.

Truesight is also an accessible super-powerful buff against high level magic.

In terms of actual combat, you can't expect to win initiative, so you need to survive the first round---AMF and the multiplicity of party members is the best help here. Try to encourage underestimation of your party.

For direct damage, Greater Mighty Wallop is effective, especially if you can jack up your caster level. The Orb spells and other SR:No spells, especially force, untyped, searing, etc... penetrate against most preparations. At least one greater dispel magic should be used. If the AMFed person can grapple the lich, you win, so secret nonmagical mobility sources by the AMFed person can be extra fun.

[Saviour]

Antimagic field does sound very promising. We have a Cleric//Barbarian who's been itching to slay him some casters, and I do believe AMF is on one of his domain lists.

[Tyndmyr]

Legend Lore. On his phylactery.

[DoctorGlock]

Can't you just flood his demiplane with holy water or something? I was under the impression that such was standard operating procedure against high level undead or outsiders.

[motoko's ghost]

Can't you just flood his demiplane with holy water or something? I was under the impression that such was standard operating procedure against high level undead or outsiders.

We're going to need a LOT of holy water to cause a flood, quick get the cleric to cast bless water on that lake 60'000 times:smalltongue:

[DoctorGlock]

We're going to need a LOT of holy water to cause a flood, quick get the cleric to cast bless water on that lake 60'000 times:smalltongue:

Bless Water one of those infinite flasks, loads of prepared shrink item, so on and so forth. They know what they are facing, prep a holy flood and then implement phase 2, which is "fight a soaking wet really pissed off lich"

[motoko's ghost]

Bless Water one of those infinite flasks, loads of prepared shrink item, so on and so forth. They know what they are facing, prep a holy flood and then implement phase 2, which is "fight a soaking wet really pissed off lich"

:smalleek:You can do that?

Also did anyone else think of that OotS strip where the PC challenges death to a wet T-shirt competition?:smalltongue:

EDIT: Here you go, alink to the comic in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html)

[DoctorGlock]

:smalleek:You can do that?

Also did anyone else think of that OotS strip where the PC challenges death to a wet T-shirt competition?:smalltongue:

You must link this, I do not recall it.

[Saviour]

The campaign has already seen an endless decanter of unholy water (or some such thing), so I suppose it could be done. How does one spring all the water at once on the foe, though? The lich does not appear to have its own demiplane, fortunately. Then again, we haven't found the fortress yet. Could be in Baator, for all we know. It definitely has evil outsider armies to boss around.

[DoctorGlock]

The campaign has already seen an endless decanter of unholy water (or some such thing), so I suppose it could be done. How does one spring all the water at once on the foe, though? The lich does not appear to have its own demiplane, fortunately. Then again, we haven't found the fortress yet. Could be in Baator, for all we know. It definitely has evil outsider armies to boss around.

Multiple decanters fired organ gun style. Or just empty them into an extraplanar storage dump for a few weeks before opening the portal over the lich.

[motoko's ghost]

The campaign has already seen an endless decanter of unholy water (or some such thing), so I suppose it could be done. How does one spring all the water at once on the foe, though?.

One of those really big water-pistols that the NERF company make:smalltongue:

[Cirrylius]

Don't neglect to prepare for the fact that your opponent is a high-level mage, not just undead. Do the same kinds of prep that you'd do on any powerful wizard; if he's got any obvious spell/feat tactics, preparing for those first will make a TITANIC difference. For instance, if he's notorious for big flashy Evocation spells, buff reflex saves and energy resistances; if he likes to get in there and use his hands w/touch attacks, concentrate on AC/concealment in addition to preparing for cold/paralyzing/energy drain attacks.

[Saviour]

Update: He does indeed have his own demiplane. Fantastic. Ok, that means he's likely to be the final villain we face, several months and levels away. So not as close as I first thought. We have a way of breaking into the demiplane, but of course, at this point that would be suicide.

Also, he seems to do pretty much all of his plane travelling using possessed bodies. Is there any way to lock down a possessor in a possessed body without them being able to retreat to their own body and plane?

[DoctorGlock]

Update: He does indeed have his own demiplane. Fantastic. Ok, that means he's likely to be the final villain we face, several months and levels away. So not as close as I first thought. We have a way of breaking into the demiplane, but of course, at this point that would be suicide.

Also, he seems to do pretty much all of his plane travelling using possessed bodies. Is there any way to lock down a possessor in a possessed body without them being able to retreat to their own body and plane?

Possession usually works via ethereal form, various dimensional locks will fix that. If he's astral projecting just bind/gate and astral marauder (or whatever it was called) to eat his silver chord.

[Amador]

So he's a lich, that means necromancy which means you go in with death ward. Also freedom of movement to stop the paralysis and mind blank to stop the mind-break that high level casters can lay down. Then find someone with an anti-magic field to grapple the lich before spamming both of them with whatever energy type the lich is not yet immune to.

No magical protection + acid = sad face lich.

After getting back home true resurrection to bring back the sacrifice.

[DoctorGlock]

the problem is getting AMF on a grappler. You either need a familiar that can grapple (not likely) or you need to put the AMF on the grappler, which requires 2 levels of arcane archer, which no one really does unless they are trying to standard action spam apocolypse from the sky

[ericgrau]

If he has NPC WBL rather than PC WBL then a ring of freedom of movement is 40% of his wealth and unlikely. Or a great way to weaken him if you force him to have one. Even if he teleports away he has to roll a check and it's 1 PC action for 1 boss action which is a great deal. So a party grappler isn't a bad idea. Just make sure you coordinate with the party so they have compatible damage options or they hold actions and time their attacks to land right after he pops out of the grapple (assuming you don't dimensional anchor him as well). It would suck to disintegrate an ally.

Then have a backup strat. If the DM gets annoyed and eventually springs for a ring, you test him once, then say muahaha our foe is now way weaker and you switch to regular attacks.

[JaronK]

Rod of Defiance + Lyre of the Restful Soul + Turn Undead Boosters + Turn or Rebuke Undead.

You can drop his effective turn resistance by 8, and since his HD is low (let's say he's got 18 HD), you should have no trouble turning him. Then just beat him into a pulp.

JaronK

[Dr.Epic]

Get Smite and Turn Undead as powerful as possible.

[Saviour]

Yeah, uh... Turn Undead is not going to happen.

I seem to remember a spell somewhere that allows an undead to be affected by other spells as though it was alive. Any idea what that might have been?
And what's a good source of mental stat ability damage?

Edit1:
the problem is getting AMF on a grappler. You either need a familiar that can grapple (not likely) or you need to put the AMF on the grappler, which requires 2 levels of arcane archer, which no one really does unless they are trying to standard action spam apocolypse from the sky
Ah, but we have a brave wizard/monk on our side! ...Also, I think our warblade//Savage progression Deva could UMD a scroll.

Edit2: So, I've cleared it with DM that we can get an endless decanter of holy water. How do I 'apply' enough of it at once to shock the big bad?

[ericgrau]

Put the holy water in a barrel and shrink item the barrel? Then pull the Race Bannon "I'll throw a barrel at it!!" technique. It holds about 320 pints, though if you apply the immersion rules for acid then it won't do more than 20d4 damage per round (perhaps 1d4 per round in rounds 2 and later from the pool covering the floor). This is all homebrew btw, but it's based strongly on the rules for acid and magma immersion, and holy water is "like acid" to undead. Better than the alternative assumption of 640d4 damage that people sometimes try to pull with alchemical items by "RAW" (even though this is more than what the total immersion rules say).

More realistically once you have a grappler + dimensional anchor to slow down the lich an endless holy water geyser is a great way to hurt him without harming the monk // wizard. It might not be as fast as other ways but with grappling delaying your foe (even if he does manage to slip out every round) you have time.

[Amador]

I have another plan, throw the lich into a portable hole filled with acid, then AMF for the wins. If you leave the hole open the AMF should extend into it and make it impossible to access the extra-dimensional space.

[DoctorGlock]

Edit1:
Ah, but we have a brave wizard/monk on our side! ...Also, I think our warblade//Savage progression Deva could UMD a scroll.

Edit2: So, I've cleared it with DM that we can get an endless decanter of holy water. How do I 'apply' enough of it at once to shock the big bad?

Reading comprehension fail on my part, missed the gestalt.

As to endless decanters, get 10 or so and fire them like an organ gun.