Prestige Advice for a Debuffer?

[NeoSeraphi]

So I'm going to play in a PbP game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226360), and I want to try playing a debuffer/BC sorcerer.

Before anyone suggests that wizard would be better for this, I don't enjoy playing prepared casters. Period. I don't care if they're stronger, or how many more spells they know. I don't like the bookkeeping, so I'm not going to do it.

The game is starting at level 15 and might possibly be gestalt, so I have options. Unfortunately, the other side of my build can't be hexblade/paladin of tyranny/blackguard or anything like that, because this game is good-aligned only. Not non-evil. Good. I want to play a Chaotic Good character, but the Chaotic is flexible.

I just don't know what kinds of prestige classes would be good for this build! I don't want to lose any caster levels at all, unless the ability I get for them is really helpful. I thought about playing a Wild Mage with Practiced Spellcaster, but I'm not too sure about that yet, so I wanted to get some input for other people. (It doesn't really give me anything, other than a boost in caster level and some other flavorful abilities, just to save me the dead levels)

Flipping through Complete Arcane I got frustrated because two of the full casters are prepared only. Anyone have any ideas?

As for the other side of my gestalt, I was thinking about playing an arcane spellcaster (Unearthed Arcana) to give me almost twice the spells known/per day, as well as access to the cleric/druid spell lists. This is also not set in stone, so if anyone has any better suggestions, I'd be more than happy to listen.

Other party members, so far:

A Ruby Knight Vindicator
Rogue//Wizard who focuses on illusions and enchantment
Ordained Champion 15 (Homebrew) // Paladin 2/Antipaladin 2 (Homebrew)/ Saint 2 (BoED)/ HellReaver 10 (FCII)
An arcane blaster/incantatrix


Thoughts? Please state your sources so I can find them quickly.

[Godskook]

I suggest doing something like:

Paladin(of alignment) 2/Wilder 6/Swordsage 2/Slayer 10

From this, you can grab:
-Cha to AC in light armor(buy a +1(+10 equivalent) armor eventually)
-Cha to saves
-Cha-based psionic casting
-Share Pain+Vigor+Psicrystal tanking
-Psionic armor/shield boosters, which are better than everything but AbChamp Luminous.


Other options if you don't like Wilder are:
-Marshal, congrats, you're now a skill monkey without skills.
-Bard, oh hey, you can now get Cha to more things now, include to-hit and damage

[NeoSeraphi]

I suggest doing something like:

Paladin(of alignment) 2/Wilder 6/Swordsage 2/Slayer 10

From this, you can grab:
-Cha to AC in light armor(buy a +1(+10 equivalent) armor eventually)
-Cha to saves
-Cha-based psionic casting
-Share Pain+Vigor+Psicrystal tanking
-Psionic armor/shield boosters, which are better than everything but AbChamp Luminous.


Other options if you don't like Wilder are:
-Marshal, congrats, you're now a skill monkey without skills.
-Bard, oh hey, you can now get Cha to more things now, include to-hit and damage

Well, I don't want to be a gish. I want to be a debuffer. Pure arcane hell. Wrecking people with crowd control and stuff. I only mentioned the paladin/hexblade/blackguard thing because that has so many penalty to save auras that would have been useful.

[Piggy Knowles]

I know that you've specifically asked for Prestige Advice, but...

Really, the best "Good" debuffer is almost certainly going to be a bard. Inspire Awe (Dragon Magic) gets a lot of hate because you miss Inspire Courage, but it's actually a pretty solid fear debuff. Doomspeak (Champions of Ruin) is one of the best debuffs in the game, period. The only drawback is that they don't get Intimidate as a class skill, but a single feat fixes that, and it could be a non-issue if you're gestalting.

For prestige classes, Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror) is about as good as it gets, and I'm pretty sure you can be Chaotic Good as one.

Just off the top of my head, something like....

Human Bard 5/Dread Witch 4/Sublime Chord 2/Dread Witch +1/Nightmare Spinner 5/Sacred Exorcist 3

1- Nymph's Kiss, Dreadful Wrath
3- Martial Study (Devoted Spirit)
6- Doomspeak
9- Imperious Command
12- Haunting Melody
15- Extra Music
18- Extra Music

...with Inspire Courage swapped out for Inspire Awe.

I'm still at work, so this is a pretty rough build skeleton, and could certainly be improved on (heck, I haven't even checked pre-reqs on all of those), but you would get 9th-level spontaneous spells, a TON of fear and demoralizing effects, including frightful presence, the ability to spend a bardic music attempt to give someone a -10 to basically everything that matters (including saves), and more.

[NeoSeraphi]

Unfortunately, Doomspeak is from the Champions of Ruin book, and I don't think we'll be allowed any Campaign-Specific source material in this game. I'll check though. But even if I did, I don't think that the feat would be enough to offset the fact that the bard spell list doesn't have most of the best debuff spells in the game. (No stinking cloud, no flesh to stone, no web, etc)

Maybe I'll be able to grab it on my other side though.

Dread Witch certainly is nice, if a bit focused. I'll think about using it. (I'm a little hesitant to because creatures who are frightened and panicked just run away. It doesn't make them easier to kill, it just causes them to run away from you, which can cause problems in storyline and probably won't net you any XP)

Your build is a little off. You can't enter Sublime Chord until 10th level due to skill prereqs.

[Piggy Knowles]

Unfortunately, Doomspeak is from the Champions of Ruin book, and I don't think we'll be allowed any Campaign-Specific source material in this game. I'll check though.

That's a shame - Doomspeak really is incredible. The feat doesn't actually have anything setting-specific with it, other than being printed in CoR. It's one of the best single-target debuffs in the game, though.

If you aren't allowed setting specific stuff, Dreadful Wrath is also a no-go. But honestly, losing Doomspeak hurts you more.


But even if I did, I don't think that the feat would be enough to offset the fact that the bard spell list doesn't have most of the best debuff spells in the game. (No stinking cloud, no flesh to stone, no web, etc)

Agreed - hence going into Sublime Chord. That being said, both stinking cloud and web are easily available through summon monster spells.


Dread Witch certainly is nice, if a bit focused. I'll think about using it. (I'm a little hesitant to because creatures who are frightened and panicked just run away. It doesn't make them easier to kill, it just causes them to run away from you, which can cause problems in storyline and probably won't net you any XP)

Panicked opponents are easy to kill - they explicitly drop whatever they are doing and take a random path. Shaken opponents don't run away, but are softened up for everything else that happens, with a -2 to all of the relevant rolls. And the real fun comes in with Imperious Command, which makes those that you demoralize cower instead, and cowering enemies can't take ANY actions.


Your build is a little off. You can't enter Sublime Chord until 10th level due to skill prereqs.

Thanks - will definitely need to be re-worked. Like I said, just tossing something together with a fear focus.

[NeoSeraphi]

Your help is appreciated, and if I do go fear-focused, I will certainly use it to help me build my own path. For now, though I want to go with a broader approach to debuffing, with a multitude of conditions, at least one for each save, and with some kind of focus on improved save DCs for all spells, if that's even possible.

[Treblain]

An idea: take Improved Familiar and get a Howler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/howler.htm), which is an improved familiar per CW's additions. It's a good combat familiar and can debuff with its quills. If you gestalt with a better BAB/high HD class, it will be very strong in combat; hexblade would be perfect for that if not for your restrictions. Another gestalt option is warlock or dragonfire adept, which have a lot of BC/debuffing options.

For a sorcerer prestige: how about Dracolexi, from Races of the Dragon? Entrance isn't too difficult to manage, and it gives you some interesting abilities and some extra spells known. It does lose one level of casting.

[NeoSeraphi]

Argh! Screw it! I've had such a rough couple of weeks, I'm not in the mood for all this casting/prestiging/battlefield control crap! I want to maul something! I changed my build to a very melee-centric thing. Thanks for all you guys' help though.

[Mantarni]

Dragonfire adept is incredible at this. Look it up, it barely does damage but is a debuffing monster of a class. And you get a 1st level invocation that gives touched allies immunity to your breath effects for the day. Get a gestalt class that has armor proficiencies so you don't have to bother with mithril chain shirts, and its even better.

Hint: Entangling Exhalation. Get it. Make your enemies lives a living hell.

EDIT: or not. It is strangely relaxing to make a build that does no damage but makes life miserable for everyone in your way, though.

[Medic!]

Man first off, I just gotta say I'm 100% in your corner on prepared casters, hated and awful. I had the pleasure of drawing up a 15th sorc 4/incantrix 10 (and one lvl of Fey Bloodline from UA) that was 100% debuff/battlefield control. Rapid Metamagic and all the stat debuffs with an Imp familiar made for absolutely tasty moments.

Enervation is officially like...my favorite spell ever, especially with the necropoliton template from LM *gogo twin spell, split ray, maximized, empowered, fell drain (ocular x2) Enervation - end the fight now, or weaken the badguy and soak up a ton of temp hp*

It was also nice having a high enough Cha that even a War Troll had to roll a 16 to save against Baleful Polymorph. Bunnies with regeneration? Bunnies with regeneration.

The build was based around Enervation as an Arcane Thesis and rapid metamagic + practical metamagic and a boat load of "No, there is no save. Yes it really does that. How much xp for the ________?"

PS - Nothing vents frustration like a nasty caster does, here's to hoping you change your mind!

[NeoSeraphi]

Man first off, I just gotta say I'm 100% in your corner on prepared casters, hated and awful. I had the pleasure of drawing up a 15th sorc 4/incantrix 10 (and one lvl of Fey Bloodline from UA) that was 100% debuff/battlefield control. Rapid Metamagic and all the stat debuffs with an Imp familiar made for absolutely tasty moments.

Enervation is officially like...my favorite spell ever, especially with the necropoliton template from LM *gogo twin spell, split ray, maximized, empowered, fell drain (ocular x2) Enervation - end the fight now, or weaken the badguy and soak up a ton of temp hp*


Haha! I totally didn't even think of that! Man, I love the idea of doing a Super Enervation build, but it wouldn't feel right if I wasn't a dread necro/incantatrix, you know?



PS - Nothing vents frustration like a nasty caster does, here's to hoping you change your mind!

Ah, but this is no ordinary melee character! I'm going to play a werewolf shifter trip build. Trip someone. Maul him. Slice him open. And on the other side of my gestalt? Druid. No animal companion, no wildshape, just the Beast Spirit racial substitution levels giving me all sorts of juicy stats, and you know...tossing healing in there. Not really a prepared caster, more like a barbarian with like six healing belts attached.

[Medic!]

Man you should totally sneak some arcane caster into that trip build for Howling Chain from the Spell Compendium...6th lvl spell iirc? It basically manifests an anchored spiked chain fighter where you cast it. Not just ONE spiked chain werewolf SoB-machine...but a whole battle mat full of spiked chain SoB-machines!

Side note if you ever try the enervationmancer, I managed to crap out 84 negative lvls split out over 12 rays (at 7 neg lvls per ray) in one round without crits (yeah they can crit <3) at 5 temp hp/neg lvl with no cap for an hour, life got rediculous

[Curmudgeon]

The best prestige class for a debuffer is Church Inquisitor (Complete Divine, pages 26-28). The Inquisition domain boosts your dispel check by +4, after the cap in the CL formula is applied. Church Inquisitor requires membership in a Lawful Good church/order, so that alignment would work for you.

Would you consider a Favored Soul/Church Inquisitor instead? Favored Soul (Complete Divine, pages 6-10) is the same idea as a Sorcerer, but divine spells instead of arcane. They also know 1 more spell at each level than a Sorcerer and have all good saves, which is helpful if you're going to be slinging spells back and forth.

[Waker]

Well, before you dropped the idea of being a spellcaster I was going to suggest
Bard 6/Lyrical Thaumaturge 4/ Sublime Chord 2/Lyrical Thaumaturge 6/Sublime Chord 2
You'd get plenty of spellcasting between both PrCs expanding on the number and types of spells available to you, granting both Bard and Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Lots of Bardic Music to fuel various effects like Song of Arcane Power or Inspire Courage.

[darksolitaire]

Bard 6/Lyrical Thaumaturge 4/ Sublime Chord 2/Lyrical Thaumaturge 6/Sublime Chord 2

Bugged, unfortunately Lyric Thaumaturge can only advance Bard and not Sublime Chord. Wouldn't be unreasonable house rule, thought. Also, my first ever character was Bard-Lyric Thaumaturge-Sublime Chord.:smallwink: (if memory serves)

[Waker]

Hmm, you seem to be right about the Lyrical Thaumaturge not progressing Sublime Chord casting. Would need to houserule that one, though it's hardly game-breaking, I mean a straight sorcerer still has more spells.