[3.5] Mage Armor or Regular Armor?

[rmg22893]

I'm starting a level 1 campaign as a Gestalt Wizard/Druid, and was wondering what people think I should do. I can either go with no armor and use mage armor during encounters, and risk being caught off guard and killed (only have 11 AC without armor), or I can buy hide armor and a heavy wooden shield, and have 16 AC all of the time, but I will also have a 35% arcane spell failure chance. I'm leaning towards the regular armor, since I won't be able to cast spells anyway if I'm dead, but I'd like to know what you all think.

[sreservoir]

you can still cast your druid spells in armor without penalty. basically play as a druid with a few more, less reliable, spells per day for a few levels. rely on AC so that you don't have to get involved and risk dying directly.

[SirFredgar]

you can still cast your druid spells in armor without penalty. basically play as a druid with a few more, less reliable, spells per day for a few levels. rely on AC so that you don't have to get involved and risk dying directly.

I agree. 11 AC would make me feel far to vulnerable. Druid spellcasting should be your meat and potatoes untill you can switch out your armor at later levels for defensive items. As in, ring of deflection, amulet of natural armor, and bracers of armor (to name the most common methods)

I'm also curious as to the stats/build of your Gestalt? There might be some ways to increase his AC at the begining of the game and get you those arcane spells without spell failure.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm starting a level 1 campaign as a Gestalt Wizard/Druid, and was wondering what people think I should do. I can either go with no armor and use mage armor during encounters, and risk being caught off guard and killed (only have 11 AC without armor), or I can buy hide armor and a heavy wooden shield, and have 16 AC all of the time, but I will also have a 35% arcane spell failure chance. I'm leaning towards the regular armor, since I won't be able to cast spells anyway if I'm dead, but I'd like to know what you all think.
Step 1:
Yes, go with the armor.
Step 2:
For the Arcane side, focus on spells without Somatic components (Featherfall, Hold Portal, True Strike, and Ventriloquism can be useful under the right circumstances... and you're a Druid for the rest of the time), or utility effects where it's OK if you stop and spend a minute getting out of your armor, and then another getting back into it.

[rmg22893]

Well, I'm going to throw Geomancer into the mix once I hit Wizard 3 // Druid 3, so I'm planning on wearing armor throughout the entirety of my career.

[sreservoir]

... oops, when I said rely on AC, I meant animal companion and entirely forgot that we were talking about armor.

[SirFredgar]

Well, I'm going to throw Geomancer into the mix once I hit Wizard 3 // Druid 3, so I'm planning on wearing armor throughout the entirety of my career.

What are your stats? One possible solution I see for druids later game is to ditch the armor and pick up a monks belt with a wilding clasp. Though this tactic is obviously only truely benefical if you are concentrating on WIS. Since Druid and Wizard are gear toward different spellcasting stats, it could radically change your gear options for overcoming that low ac later in your game.

[rmg22893]

What are your stats? One possible solution I see for druids later game is to ditch the armor and pick up a monks belt with a wilding clasp. Though this tactic is obviously only truely benefical if you are concentrating on WIS. Since Druid and Wizard are gear toward different spellcasting stats, it could radically change your gear options for overcoming that low ac later in your game.

My level 1 stats are as follows:

STR 10 INT 18
DEX 12 WIS 16
CON 14 CHA 10

I'm going to be leaving INT where it is, and using the Geomancer's spell versatility to make my spells' DCs reliant exclusively on WIS.

[Anderlith]

Just go with mage armor. As a caster you are not meant to be hit. If you do get hit, then you did something wrong.

[rmg22893]

Just go with mage armor. As a caster you are not meant to be hit. If you do get hit, then you did something wrong.

So there's supposed to be something I can do about an enemy shooting an arrow at me at first level?

[SirFredgar]

I've never really looked at Geomancer before, but it's Spell Versatility class feature is an intereting option. Though you did say you were going to be focusing Wis over int. If I am reading it correctly you could always go the opposite route, concentrate on intelligence over wisdom, and end up with a slightly higher caster stat because of it.

Though, if you do Wis I see the benefeit of throwing on a monks belt + bracers of armor for a decent amount of static (touch) Ac. When you start playing with wildshape and the Bite of the X spells, you'll see a further jump from all those natural armor bonuses (though not touch AC, sadly).

Though, unless you plan on being a frontline fighter through wildshape, you shouldn't need tooo high an Armor Class, as you ARE a caster with plenty of other tricks up your sleeve to stay alive.

[sreservoir]

My level 1 stats are as follows:

STR 10 INT 18
DEX 12 WIS 16
CON 14 CHA 10

I'm going to be leaving INT where it is, and using the Geomancer's spell versatility to make my spells' DCs reliant exclusively on WIS.

er, why not boost your int and use geomancer to rely on int exclusively? would be more efficient.

[Morph Bark]

If you go into Abjurant Champion, you no longer have any need for petty iron.

[Zaq]

So there's supposed to be something I can do about an enemy shooting an arrow at me at first level?

Abrupt Jaunt, but that's not exactly a good point of balance.

[rmg22893]

er, why not boost your int and use geomancer to rely on int exclusively? would be more efficient.

How would it be more efficient? The way I see it, I can boost WIS and get better will saves, armor from a prospective monk's belt, and bonus druid spells, whereas with boosting INT, I just get more skill points and bonus wizard spells.

[rmg22893]

If you go into Abjurant Champion, you no longer have any need for petty iron.

Don't really have any space for Abjurant Champion :P My build is Druid 20 // Wizard 3 / Geomancer 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

[Lateral]

Just go with Mage Armor. It's an hour/level spell, it'll last you through all your combats. It's not like anyone ambushing you is going to be able to make it past all your allies in order to one-shot you; keep a Mage Armor and one CLW prepared, just in case, and you'll be fine. How many times do you expect to be ambushed at levels 1-3, anyway?

[rmg22893]

Just go with Mage Armor. It's an hour/level spell, it'll last you through all your combats. It's not like anyone ambushing you is going to be able to make it past all your allies in order to one-shot you; keep a Mage Armor and one CLW prepared, just in case, and you'll be fine. How many times do you expect to be ambushed at levels 1-3, anyway?

Uh...you'd be surprised. The guy DMing this campaign is diabolical. The last campaign he ran, half of our party almost died by level 1 because some wizard thought it would be funny to put explosive runes on wanted posters.

[Lateral]

Uh...you'd be surprised. The guy DMing this campaign is diabolical. The last campaign he ran, half of our party almost died by level 1 because some wizard thought it would be funny to put explosive runes on wanted posters.

...Oh. In that case, sure, go ahead with the armor, but do yourself a favor and get rid of it by the time you can Wild Shape, if not before.

[rmg22893]

...Oh. In that case, sure, go ahead with the armor, but do yourself a favor and get rid of it by the time you can Wild Shape, if not before.

Why get rid of it when I can Wild Shape? Doesn't it meld into my new form and become non-functional when I Wild Shape, anyway?

[Lateral]

Why get rid of it when I can Wild Shape? Doesn't it meld into my new form and become non-functional when I Wild Shape, anyway?

Yeah, but there's no point in having it at all- it's a waste of GP, if nothing else. Plus, Mage Armor *does* function while wildshaped.

[SirFredgar]

Why get rid of it when I can Wild Shape? Doesn't it meld into my new form and become non-functional when I Wild Shape, anyway?

This is exactly correct, which is why it's a good idea to replace it once you get wild shape. Most Druids will want to be wild shaped most if not all of the time to cut back on actions they need to perform during the first couple of rounds, since combat can/usually will end in those precious few rounds. You can get by this with wild armor property I beleive, but it's generally more usefull to go other routes to buff your AC while wildshaping.

Don't forget you have plenty of options for defence. Barkskin, Stoneskin, Mage Armor, Shield, Resists Energy X, etc. Just pour through your spell list (and if you have it, the Spell Compendium) and you'll find new goodies all the time that will make you feel better about your low AC. I hardly noticed mine on a Druid 1-20.

[rmg22893]

This is exactly correct, which is why it's a good idea to replace it once you get wild shape. Most Druids will want to be wild shaped most if not all of the time to cut back on actions they need to perform during the first couple of rounds, since combat can/usually will end in those precious few rounds. You can get by this with wild armor property I beleive, but it's generally more usefull to go other routes to buff your AC while wildshaping.

Don't forget you have plenty of options for defence. Barkskin, Stoneskin, Mage Armor, Shield, Resists Energy X, etc. Just pour through your spell list (and if you have it, the Spell Compendium) and you'll find new goodies all the time that will make you feel better about your low AC. I hardly noticed mine on a Druid 1-20.

Yeah, I know about wilding armor, but I don't understand the rationale of getting rid of my armor entirely.

[Lateral]

Yeah, I know about wilding armor, but I don't understand the rationale of getting rid of my armor entirely.

Because it is taking up WBL. If you don't need something any more, you sell the hell out of it.

[rmg22893]

Because it is taking up WBL. If you don't need something any more, you sell the hell out of it.

Yeah, but my starting armor is a grand total of 22 gold...is that really going to cripple me that much? I'd be able to sell it back for 11 gold at best. As opposed to keeping it for +5 AC whilst in human form.

[Lateral]

Yeah, but my starting armor is a grand total of 22 gold...is that really going to cripple me that much? I'd be able to sell it back for 11 gold at best. As opposed to keeping it for +5 AC whilst in human form.

At that point, your mage armor should last all day, anyway. Plus, at that point the extra AC isn't worth the ASF.

[SirFredgar]

Yeah, but my starting armor is a grand total of 22 gold...is that really going to cripple me that much? I'd be able to sell it back for 11 gold at best. As opposed to keeping it for +5 AC whilst in human form.

Well, if you ever plan to graduate to a Monks belt, you have to ditch the armor, or the monks belt wont work. It also doesn't stack with Mage armor or it's improved versions, or the bracers of armor.

And like I said, as long as you have natural spell, you should be in animal shape most of the time.

[rmg22893]

Well, if you ever plan to graduate to a Monks belt, you have to ditch the armor, or the monks belt wont work. It also doesn't stack with Mage armor or it's improved versions, or the bracers of armor.

And like I said, as long as you have natural spell, you should be in animal shape most of the time.

I double-checked Monk's belt, and I don't think it gives you Wis to AC...it would just give you +1 AC and 1d8 unarmed die, no?

[herrhauptmann]

Because it is taking up WBL. If you don't need something any more, you sell the hell out of it.
Why? It's not like he's a warrior wasting money on a +9 sword of awesome just so he can contribute. He's a caster, combining two Tier 1 classes. A little money doesn't matter for him.

Wildling clasp on your armor.
It doesn't matter if your armor is only providing you 4 AC at level 15 (if you live that long), because it will also hold various enchantments for you. That is why even Abjurant Champions wear +1 mithral chain shirts.

edit:
As far as spell failure? There's ways around it.
Thistledown and twilight. As a druid, I don't think he can wear a chainshirt.
Also a mithral buckler. Shield slot, additional enchantments can be put on that too.

[SirFredgar]

I double-checked Monk's belt, and I don't think it gives you Wis to AC...it would just give you +1 AC and 1d8 unarmed die, no?

I am at work, so I cannot link the relevent information from the SRD, but I do beleive is says "As a 5th level monk" 5th level monks do get +1 to AC, but they also get wisdom to ac from level 1 on.

I orginally thought it was the case that you do not get the Wis to AC, but the above seems to be the explaination I get around here that it does.

[rmg22893]

Why? It's not like he's a warrior wasting money on a +9 sword of awesome just so he can contribute. He's a caster, combining two Tier 1 classes. A little money doesn't matter for him.

Wildling clasp on your armor.
It doesn't matter if your armor is only providing you 4 AC at level 15 (if you live that long), because it will also hold various enchantments for you. That is why even Abjurant Champions wear +1 mithral chain shirts.

edit:
As far as spell failure? There's ways around it.
Thistledown and twilight. As a druid, I don't think he can wear a chainshirt.
Also a mithral buckler. Shield slot, additional enchantments can be put on that too.

I have Geomancer in my build, so spell failure will be of no object once I get to about level 10. I'll probably buy some sort of non-metallic breastplate once I get there.

And why would you need a mithral buckler? Wouldn't a simple masterwork buckler be significantly cheaper?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have Geomancer in my build, so spell failure will be of no object once I get to about level 10. I'll probably buy some sort of non-metallic breastplate once I get there.

And why would you need a mithral buckler? Wouldn't a simple masterwork buckler be significantly cheaper?

Okay, some things about this...

In a Gestalt, Geomancer is actually pretty good since you get to have a lot of advantages, but you don't get the twelve kinds of suck and fail normally involved with it.

I take it you are going Wiz3/Geomancer10//Druid13 then going from there? Nice. You're getting a package of physical nastiness with dual-realm casting.

As far as Mage Armor vs Regular Armor... I would highly suggest regular armor. If it wasn't for the fact that it would destroy your Druid stuff, get a Mithral Chain Shirt. Not for the ASF, but because it has a -0 ACF, which means not having proficiency in it is irrelevant. However, because you are a Druid, that doesn't work so well for you.

Honestly, I'd suggest Moonleaf Ivy when you get the cash for it. Basically, the same stats as Mithral Chain Shirt, but all natural, so it won't hurt your Druidic nature.

Regular armor can be enchanted with enhancement bonuses. Then further enhanced by magic. And can be enchanted with bonus equivalents. Mage armor... is a flat +4 to AC. And that's it.

Get a Large Darkwood Shield, then enchant it with Dancing so it will float around you, giving you the shield bonus to AC, without actually having to equip it.

Either that, or go into the PrC Abjurant Champion and use the Shield spell, which will be giving you a +9 Shield bonus to AC and can be done as a Swift action at no additional charge.

[rmg22893]

Okay, some things about this...

In a Gestalt, Geomancer is actually pretty good since you get to have a lot of advantages, but you don't get the twelve kinds of suck and fail normally involved with it.

I take it you are going Wiz3/Geomancer10//Druid13 then going from there? Nice. You're getting a package of physical nastiness with dual-realm casting.

As far as Mage Armor vs Regular Armor... I would highly suggest regular armor. If it wasn't for the fact that it would destroy your Druid stuff, get a Mithral Chain Shirt. Not for the ASF, but because it has a -0 ACF, which means not having proficiency in it is irrelevant. However, because you are a Druid, that doesn't work so well for you.

Honestly, I'd suggest Moonleaf Ivy when you get the cash for it. Basically, the same stats as Mithral Chain Shirt, but all natural, so it won't hurt your Druidic nature.

Regular armor can be enchanted with enhancement bonuses. Then further enhanced by magic. And can be enchanted with bonus equivalents. Mage armor... is a flat +4 to AC. And that's it.

Get a Large Darkwood Shield, then enchant it with Dancing so it will float around you, giving you the shield bonus to AC, without actually having to equip it.

Either that, or go into the PrC Abjurant Champion and use the Shield spell, which will be giving you a +9 Shield bonus to AC and can be done as a Swift action at no additional charge.

I am following this build order:

01 Druid 1 | Wizard 1
02 Druid 2 | Wizard 2
03 Druid 3 | Wizard 3
04 Druid 4 | Geomancer 1 (Wiz)
05 Druid 5 | Geomancer 2 (Wiz)
06 Druid 6 | Geomancer 3 (Wiz)
07 Druid 7 | Geomancer 4 (Wiz)
08 Druid 8 | Geomancer 5 (Wiz)
09 Druid 9 | Geomancer 6 (Wiz)
10 Druid 10 | IotSV 1
11 Druid 11 | IotSV 2
12 Druid 12 | IotSV 3
13 Druid 13 | IotSV 4
14 Druid 14 | IotSV 5
15 Druid 15 | IotSV 6
16 Druid 16 | IotSV 7
17 Druid 17 | Geomancer 7 (Wiz)
18 Druid 18 | Geomancer 8 (Wiz)
19 Druid 19 | Geomancer 9 (Wiz)
20 Druid 20 | Geomancer 10 (Wiz)

Taking the 6 levels of Geomancer before I start IotSV will allow me to cast most of my spells without arcane spell failure, and then I can finish up Geomancer after IotSV.

:biggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am following this build order:

01 Druid 1 | Wizard 1
02 Druid 2 | Wizard 2
03 Druid 3 | Wizard 3
04 Druid 4 | Geomancer 1 (Wiz)
05 Druid 5 | Geomancer 2 (Wiz)
06 Druid 6 | Geomancer 3 (Wiz)
07 Druid 7 | Geomancer 4 (Wiz)
08 Druid 8 | Geomancer 5 (Wiz)
09 Druid 9 | Geomancer 6 (Wiz)
10 Druid 10 | IotSV 1
11 Druid 11 | IotSV 2
12 Druid 12 | IotSV 3
13 Druid 13 | IotSV 4
14 Druid 14 | IotSV 5
15 Druid 15 | IotSV 6
16 Druid 16 | IotSV 7
17 Druid 17 | Geomancer 7 (Wiz)
18 Druid 18 | Geomancer 8 (Wiz)
19 Druid 19 | Geomancer 9 (Wiz)
20 Druid 20 | Geomancer 10 (Wiz)

Taking the 6 levels of Geomancer before I start IotSV will allow me to cast most of my spells without arcane spell failure, and then I can finish up Geomancer after IotSV.

:biggrin:

Very defensible. AbChamp is another option if you like using lower end abjuration spells as Swift actions, but it's hard to say no to IotSV7

I'd still say armor to mage armor spell. It's just so much easier to enhance.

[rmg22893]

Very defensible. AbChamp is another option if you like using lower end abjuration spells as Swift actions, but it's hard to say no to IotSV7

I'd still say armor to mage armor spell. It's just so much easier to enhance.

Yeah, I'm definitely thinking regular armor is the way to go.

The guy DMing this campaign likes to throw deadly things at his PCs in creative and unexpected ways, so it will be nice to have a "Just say no" button four times a day with IotSV :smallcool:

[Ashiel]

So there's supposed to be something I can do about an enemy shooting an arrow at me at first level?

Yes. Make sure you have an ally between you and your foe (your animal companion qualifies). This nets you a +4 AC bonus for soft cover. Drop prone for an additional +4 AC bonus (you can cast spells on the ground with no problems). This is in addition to any Dexterity bonuses, size bonuses, armor bonuses, shield bonuses, or total defense. It is entirely valid to - as a wizard - buff the party, grab a shield, fall to the ground, and duck and cover, taking a total defense action when you're not flinging spells, and just generally making yourself a pain in the butt to hit.

Example...

Round 1: Wizard drops prone (free action), casts haste on the whole party (or enlarge person on the fighter if you're 1st level. You're AC is now +8 vs incoming projectiles.
Round 2: Draw a heavy shield for +2 AC as a move action, total defense as a standard action. Your AC is now +14 vs incoming projectiles.

[MeeposFire]

Well, if you ever plan to graduate to a Monks belt, you have to ditch the armor, or the monks belt wont work. It also doesn't stack with Mage armor or it's improved versions, or the bracers of armor.

And like I said, as long as you have natural spell, you should be in animal shape most of the time.

Actually those do stack. Mage armor is an armor bonus and the wisdom bonus is untyped. Bracers of armor stack with the wisdom bonus but not the mage armor (both are armor bonuses).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, I'm definitely thinking regular armor is the way to go.

The guy DMing this campaign likes to throw deadly things at his PCs in creative and unexpected ways, so it will be nice to have a "Just say no" button four times a day with IotSV :smallcool:

Two more things:

1) Your animal companion = win. At low levels, it's a Riding Dog, which means it can trip, has decent hit points, can be Magebred... good times. At level 4, I think, is when it can be a Fleshraker. At that point... ouch. Just... ouch.

2) Read the feat Natural Spell. Nowhere does it say it has to be druid spells that it applies to. In other words, you can be Wildshaped *AND* be casting your arcane spells all over the place.

Have fun.

[Hirax]

Don't forget about greater mage armor, luminous armor, and greater luminous armor. Combo any of those with a monk's belt for wisdom to AC, and ditch regular armor altogether. If you want an armor special ability such as soulfire, put it on bracers of armor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Don't forget about greater mage armor, luminous armor, and greater luminous armor. Combo any of those with a monk's belt for wisdom to AC, and ditch regular armor altogether. If you want an armor special ability such as soulfire, put it on bracers of armor.

Much cheaper to put it on actual armor, and with Magic Vestments, you end up with better numbers as well.

[rmg22893]

Two more things:

1) Your animal companion = win. At low levels, it's a Riding Dog, which means it can trip, has decent hit points, can be Magebred... good times. At level 4, I think, is when it can be a Fleshraker. At that point... ouch. Just... ouch.

2) Read the feat Natural Spell. Nowhere does it say it has to be druid spells that it applies to. In other words, you can be Wildshaped *AND* be casting your arcane spells all over the place.

Have fun.

Hehe, I will...my DM challenged me to break the game as much as possible using only core books + Complete books...I think I did a decent job :P

[MeeposFire]

Much cheaper to put it on actual armor, and with Magic Vestments, you end up with better numbers as well.

If I recall correctly enchanting bracers of defense is just as cheap for enchantments. One option is to use a combo of bracers for the enchantments and a robe (or similar) using the MIC rules to do the actual armor class boosting. If you notice magic vestment can be cast on clothing and it will stack.

[Hirax]

He was probably referring to my factoring in a monk's belt.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hehe, I will...my DM challenged me to break the game as much as possible using only core books + Complete books...I think I did a decent job :P

Mmm... you certainly didn't do too bad a job, certainly. There's a few other things that can be done with Core + Completes, but on the whole, you've got a solid Tier 1 nightmare for your GM.

Also, don't forget the following:

Contingency Dimension door upon being targeted by (generally, I use a dispel effect as my trigger, since it goes off before the dispel does and disrupts it, but being the target of an attack or negative effect works just as well). Without PhB II, you won't have access to Celerity, I believe.

Invisibility is 50% miss chance. Mirror Image can be up to 87.5% miss chance (with seven other images), and Greater Mirror Image is not only cast as a swift action automatically, but also replenishes your images. Guess which one is better at protecting you from sharp pointy things?

Overland Flight is all day flight, but by that time, so is Phantom Steed, which is only a 3rd level spell as opposed to a 5th.

Metamagic-stacking on Enervation is a LOT of fun. Orbs are also handy for destroying golems who are otherwise immune to most forms of magic.

And don't forget, you can do this while wildshaped into whatever crazy form you like. Without access to some of the other monster manuals, your choice of forms is somewhat limited, but it's hard to go wrong being a Bear.

[Eldariel]

I double-checked Monk's belt, and I don't think it gives you Wis to AC...it would just give you +1 AC and 1d8 unarmed die, no?

Monk's Belt:
"This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."

Monk's AC Bonus:
"AC Bonus (Ex)

When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. "


That is precisely what he gets. As a 5th level Monk, he gets Wisdom to AC and +1 bonus on top of that, with the normal limitations.

[Gnaeus]

Quick question. Your DM will allow your animal companion to wear armor, right? RAW says yes, in my opinion, but not everyone agrees. If the AC can't wear barding, Mage Armor or a variation of it is very helpful for keeping your pet awesome.



Overland Flight is all day flight, but by that time, so is Phantom Steed, which is only a 3rd level spell as opposed to a 5th..

True, but phantom steeds are easy to kill, which sucks. Also, when polymorphed or wildshaped you may not be able to ride a steed, but overland flight still works fine. IMO phantom steed does not replace overland flight.

[Morph Bark]

Quick question. Your DM will allow your animal companion to wear armor, right? RAW says yes, in my opinion, but not everyone agrees. If the AC can't wear barding, Mage Armor or a variation of it is very helpful for keeping your pet awesome.

Share spells ftw.

[Suddo]

Don't really have any space for Abjurant Champion :P My build is Druid 20 // Wizard 3 / Geomancer 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

Ah man I was going to say go Runesmith if you were a dwarf but if you're locked into a build then...

[Tyndmyr]

So there's supposed to be something I can do about an enemy shooting an arrow at me at first level?

Yes. Mage armor and taking cover. Also, ideally a bit of dex. An effective AC of 18 is quite doable, and is pretty solid. More is definitely achievable in many situations.

[rmg22893]

Ah man I was going to say go Runesmith if you were a dwarf but if you're locked into a build then...

Yeah...there are a lot of optimization options I can't use because of book restrictions :smallfrown:

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Monk's Belt:
"This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."

Monk's AC Bonus:
"AC Bonus (Ex)

When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. "


That is precisely what he gets. As a 5th level Monk, he gets Wisdom to AC and +1 bonus on top of that, with the normal limitations.

I do not wish to refute your post or start a whole (old, old, old) discussion here, but I advice the OP to ask his DM how the monk's belt works in his opinion. I have experienced that DM's ruled that the monk's belt just gives the +X bonus, and I never felt like arguing it: it is, no matter how you write, read or interpret it, pretty strong on druids the other way around. Again, I am not intending to spark a discussion here or partake in it, I just want to bring my advice across. Rmg22893: ask your DM, if he supports the view Eldariel has, monk's belt (AND mage armor) is definately the way to go.

[Siosilvar]

Invisibility is 50% miss chance. Mirror Image can be up to 87.5% miss chance (with seven other images), and Greater Mirror Image is not only cast as a swift action automatically, but also replenishes your images. Guess which one is better at protecting you from sharp pointy things?

The other things to keep in mind with Invisibility v. Mirror Image are:

Mirror Image doesn't break when you attack.
Mirror Image's miss chance depletes over time.
Invisibility is 100% miss chance if they can't pinpoint you or see invisible things.

Greater Mirror Image is better than both, but it's also 4th level.

[Gullintanni]

Quick question. Your DM will allow your animal companion to wear armor, right? RAW says yes, in my opinion, but not everyone agrees. If the AC can't wear barding, Mage Armor or a variation of it is very helpful for keeping your pet awesome.


Since we're on the topic, AC are able to wear barding in my reading of RAW, but barring specially trained creatures, they're not proficient with any armor.

Is that correct? In which case...Mithral Chain barding ftw? :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

I think limiting your wizard side to feather fall and true strike is practically eliminating your wizard side. Sleep is nice. I'd go armorless, spam sleep and entangle and go to town. The one thing worse than occasionally risking pain through ambush is risking party pain every single day through having half an offense.

You can re-evaluate at each level as one class might provide enough offense to let you wear armor or enough defense that you no longer need armor. For example flaming sphere is one of your best options at level 3 and it's also on the druid list. If you can get by with flaming sphere and entangle without running out of druid spells per day at that level then you might as well wear armor. Later when you can afford a rod of lesser extend spell for all day mage armor and false life then you can go armorless again and stay that way. Or even if you can't manage it by level 5, once you hit 3rd level spells you really need your wizard side back regardless. I suppose by then you could blow all 5 level 1s on mage armor if necessary.

In a game where action economy is king, where fights last around 5 rounds and are decided in 2-3, defensive spells that eat an action like mirror image are fairly lousy. You should be on the offensive instead, which does far more to end the fight and protect everyone. I'd prepare maybe 1 such defensive spell OR buff for use in the buffing round, never more. Or perhaps use one when you're desperate and have decided to flee anyway and will let your party handle the fight. The best thing you can do at low level is stay in the back, and even have a rear guard behind you in case of ambush. Even at higher levels pick spells that don't eat combat actions, like all day buffs.

[rmg22893]

I think limiting your wizard side to feather fall and true strike is practically eliminating your wizard side. Sleep is nice. I'd go armorless, spam sleep and entangle and go to town. The one thing worse than occasionally risking pain through ambush is risking party pain every single day through having half an offense.

You can re-evaluate at each level as one class might provide enough offense to let you wear armor or enough defense that you no longer need armor. For example flaming sphere is one of your best options at level 3 and it's also on the druid list. If you can get by with flaming sphere and entangle without running out of druid spells per day at that level then you might as well wear armor. Until you can afford a rod of lesser extend spell for all day mage armor and false life then you can go armorless again and stay that way. Or even if you can't once you hit 3rd level spells at level 5 you really need your wizard side back regardless. I suppose by then you could blow all 5 level 1s on mage armor if necessary.

We're going to have 8 PCs including myself in this campaign, all gestalt. I don't think lacking power is going to be an issue :P

[ericgrau]

Surely the DM will send more monsters to match, unless he's a pansy DM in which case you don't need to worry either way. I'd do your part. Unless you're absolutely certain that you'll always have the right terrain for entangle in all instances without screwing over any party melee, you need other options. Being a caster that's sitting on your hands or firing a crossbow sucks, and besides that it risks the lives of your fellow party members, if not your own life too.

[Gnaeus]

Since we're on the topic, AC are able to wear barding in my reading of RAW, but barring specially trained creatures, they're not proficient with any armor.

Is that correct? In which case...Mithral Chain barding ftw? :smalltongue:

Thats how I read it as well. But there was a recent druid thread which argued that barding text states that it is for mounts, and that armor for non-standard types wasn't raw because it was only a guideline, and that for those items to be 100% legal they have to be listed in the equipment tables. Personally, I don't think it is unclear at all, but if the DM is not ok with Mithral Chain Shirts on companions, it totally alters the importance of mage armor.


I think limiting your wizard side to feather fall and true strike is practically eliminating your wizard side. Sleep is nice. I'd go armorless, spam sleep and entangle and go to town. The one thing worse than occasionally risking pain through ambush is risking party pain every single day through having half an offense.

1. I disagree that limiting yourself to non-somatic spells is practically eliminating your wizard side. Yes, sleep is nice, but True Strike (when shared with your animal companion) is also pretty handy. Benign Transposition is another winner (which again is only made better by the ability to use it on your pet).
2. Non-somatics only is not necessary. Pre-Combat Buffing is still an excellent option. Yes, you have a 20% failure chance (if you put down your shield before casting), but if you lose 1 spell per day that way, you are just breaking even to where you would be if you had cast mage armor.
3. Wizards have other good class features besides spells. One of those is scribe scroll. Scrolls do not suffer ASF.

[TuggyNE]

3. Wizards have other good class features besides spells. One of those is scribe scroll. Scrolls do not suffer ASF.

Surprisingly, they do:

Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

[ericgrau]

1. I disagree that limiting yourself to non-somatic spells is practically eliminating your wizard side. Yes, sleep is nice, but True Strike (when shared with your animal companion) is also pretty handy. Benign Transposition is another winner (which again is only made better by the ability to use it on your pet).
2. Non-somatics only is not necessary. Pre-Combat Buffing is still an excellent option. Yes, you have a 20% failure chance (if you put down your shield before casting), but if you lose 1 spell per day that way, you are just breaking even to where you would be if you had cast mage armor.
3. Wizards have other good class features besides spells. One of those is scribe scroll. Scrolls do not suffer ASF.
1. True strike + attack generally gives less hits than attacking twice. If it is a class feature doing the attack instead of a full fledged PC, it's that much worse. So... not only are your options limited, if you fall into a trap they can be worse than doing nothing at all. Feather fall and benign transposition are ok utility but I'd shudder to make them my main combat options at level 1.
2. Your level 1 buff is protection from evil; as a couple +2's it's likewise mediocre and not to be used at level 1. Maybe as a secondary buffing-round option at level 3 when you have good level 2 spells. But then thanks to the druid's flaming sphere and the soon-to-be-obsolete sleep I suggested wearing armor at level 3 anyway.
3. Covered above. Though you could scribe druid scrolls. Not that it's much use in combat with the DC 11 save, but it's a minor between-combat utility thing to add to your character.

In short your primary options should not suck. Your secondary options may suck, as long as it's better than nothing. At level 1 without the better wizard spells you're really banking on plant covered terrain, limited or no melee allies among 8 PCs and 1 encounter per day so you can rely on entangle. Even then it'd be nice to have something else good to cast in remaining rounds.

[SirFredgar]

Actually those do stack. Mage armor is an armor bonus and the wisdom bonus is untyped. Bracers of armor stack with the wisdom bonus but not the mage armor (both are armor bonuses).

Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that conventional armor will not stack with mage armor or related spells as they provide an Armor Bonus.

[Fouredged Sword]

UMD the alignment restriction away and use a wand of luminus armor.