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Wolfgang Hype
2011-12-20, 09:24 PM
I'm trying to run a Pathfinder game with some friends over Skype, but I need some way to present a map to people. I tried MapTool but I couldn't figure much out with it. I also tried Open RPG Traipse but it had a lot of issues (crashing, miniatures disappearing, etc). They both seem like they're meant to offer a lot more than I'm looking for which is simply a blank grid I can put an image behind and move miniatures around on. Anyone know of an easy to use program that offers that? Preferably free.

Akodo Makama
2011-12-20, 10:09 PM
When I first started using Maptool, it was much as you describe wanting: a picture that I can move tokens around on. What problems were you having with it? I recommend Maptool, so if we can fix that, great. Otherwise, knowing what didn't work might help narrow down other solutions.

Chauncymancer
2011-12-20, 10:16 PM
Yes.
autoREALM is mainly for making stationary maps, but elements are movable.
It's clunky (mainly bc the readme is just devnotes the publishers sent back and forth and not actual instructions, so you teach yourself by trial and error) to freehand with, but it's free the there are a lot of pre-existing image elements that come with it.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-12-20, 11:00 PM
Gametable is another option. It's basically a stripped down version of MapTool, and it has had some hosting issues, but if you just want something with a grid you can draw on and move minis around it works fine.

Wolfgang Hype
2011-12-20, 11:23 PM
MapTool I had issue with placing and removing elements. I would put an element down and then not be able to remove it. Plus there was just a general sense of "what the heck am I doing?" It feels like it was designed to do a lot more than what I'm looking for and the elements I'm looking for have gotten hidden in the mess.

When you say Gametable has hosting issues, could you be more specific? I don't want a repeat of what ended up happening with Traipse where when I hosted it froze and died on me every ten minutes.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-12-21, 02:09 AM
MapTool I had issue with placing and removing elements. I would put an element down and then not be able to remove it. Plus there was just a general sense of "what the heck am I doing?" It feels like it was designed to do a lot more than what I'm looking for and the elements I'm looking for have gotten hidden in the mess.

When you say Gametable has hosting issues, could you be more specific? I don't want a repeat of what ended up happening with Traipse where when I hosted it froze and died on me every ten minutes.

It seems that some people simply won't be able to host it. For example my DM was never able to set it up to where he could host it due to some limitations on his connection due to his ISP, so I always ended up having to be the host. Mind you once I managed to get the port open and port forwarding set up I've never had it crash on me, it's just tricky to get working that's all, but once it works, it works quite well. (Now adays we just use it to make maps. He makes it, takes a screenshot, we draw on it to show what we want to do and upload the image to the forum again and he moves the minis, but that's because it's less of a pain than making a grid and moving stuff in photoshop. :p)

Wolfgang Hype
2011-12-21, 02:47 AM
If it's just a port forwarding thing then it shouldn't be an issue. I'm fairly good at getting that stuff set up. Actually had to deal with that when I tried to get traipse up and running.

Akodo Makama
2011-12-21, 05:16 AM
MapTool I had issue with placing and removing elements. I would put an element down and then not be able to remove it. Plus there was just a general sense of "what the heck am I doing?" It feels like it was designed to do a lot more than what I'm looking for and the elements I'm looking for have gotten hidden in the mess.

So you got items placed, but couldn't remove them? And you sometimes couldn't remove an item? Sounds like a simple problem understanding "Layers".

Maptool has four different places to put images (Well, sorta five)

At the far back is the image the map was created from. I usually pick something appropriate for the scene, like grasslands (the default). This is the 'sort of' layer.

Then comes the 'Background' layer. it's used for placing things that shouldn't move, like buildings, bridges, mountain slopes, stairs, etc.

On top of that is the 'Object' layer. This is the place for things that the GM needs to be able to move sometimes, but not a lot. Chairs, doors, and the like.

We come then to the 'Hidden' layer. This is where the GM stores things that the PC's shouldn't see. I keep things like packs of monsters ready to go here.

And finally, on top of everything else, the 'Token' layer. This is where monsters, PC's and the like go.

Why so many? Well, one simple idea is that tokens need to get moved a lot, and you don't want to accidentally move a wall when you really wanted to move Alice. So, things on different layers can't be selected at the same time. You can drag a box around a bunch of kobolds and move them together, and the hides on the floor they were using as camouflage will stay in place.

Another advantage is that they act a little differently, to match what they represent. The play grid is drawn on top of the background, but behind everything else, to make it more like you were dropping miniatures on a mat. Objects and Backgrounds default to being the same size as the original image; Tokens and Hiddens are squished to fit map grid (1x1, 2x2, etc). Tokens, Hiddens and Backgrounds default to being locked to the grid to make movement easier; Objects are placed pixel-perfect. GM's can use any layer; players can only touch the Token layer.

This then requires you (the GM) to have the proper layer selected when you want to move or delete something. You select layers using the menu at the top right of the main screen area.

If you don't have the layer selected, the image acts like it doesn't exist, mostly. This can be frustrating at first (as you noticed), but that also means the players won't mess up your carefully crafted clockwork trap, or drop a mountain on your minions, open a chasm under the city (mage-types excepted).

Note, I said 'mostly'. There is one really useful way in which they DO exist: notes. If a player clicks on an image on the object layer that has something in it's 'notes', those notes will be displayed to them. Same for GMs, but GMs also get to see anything in the 'GM Notes'. So the players would see "A wooden bridge in slight disrepair", while the GM would see "Squares marked in red (on hidden layer) will fail for more than 200lbs, DC35 to spot (25 if adjacent), DC20 athletics to avoid falling". These notes can be in HTML, and can include images! For me, that alone saved hundreds of minutes looking little things up and reading flavor text to the players.

Draz74
2011-12-22, 12:19 PM
Also, if you already have your whole map in the form of an image file, you don't have to "place" anything on the MapTool map other than the tokens representing the creatures. When you tell MapTool to create a new Map, there's an option to have the map's initial background image be an image file you import.

Also, I can tell you didn't really give MapTool a fair shot based on how you're posting this question on GitP rather than the MapTool forum. Probably the program's best feature is its super-friendly, super-active, super-helpful Forum community. :smallcool:

You're right that MapTool is designed to do way more than you're wanting it to do, and I can see how it could feel tricky to find the basic features amidst the deep dungeons of other features (especially since an intuitive user interface is definitely NOT MapTool's best feature). But the things you want are still there, trust me. And best of all, maybe as you become comfortable with the program, you can gradually move up to using more and more of its cool features! The Vision and Lighting features, for example, are a godsend to dungeon crawling.