PDA

View Full Version : Malack vs. Redcloak



Lawyergoblin
2011-12-20, 11:19 PM
Besides everyone's favorite dwarf, these are the largest clerical characters in the comic, and both of significant level. I was curious which side everyone would take. I personally believe Malack could defeat Redcloak, just by comparing his abilities in his fight with Nale/Sabine, as compared to Redcloak's fight with Miko. Malack kicked ass, Redcloak's ass was handed to him. Admittedly, we don't know exactly how Nale/Sabine can compare to Miko, but I'm just putting the thought out there.

Howler Dagger
2011-12-20, 11:52 PM
Besides everyone's favorite dwarf, these are the largest clerical characters in the comic

But, what about Elan? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)

Spookymurloc
2011-12-21, 12:06 AM
I think Malack would do one of two things.

A: Invite Redcloak to have a nice cup of tea and discuss theology with him.

B: Brutally destroy him.

Although I think the fight could really go either way. Redcloak knows some good spells, and Malack is in poor health.

Then again, Malack is awesome, kicks butt, and if I remember correctly, was crushing Nale and Sabine.
Plus he spent years as an adventurer and has to be pretty powerful to be the high priest of a god of death. I can't imagine Tarquin keeping him around for all these years if he wasn't worth his salt.

I'm no DnD expert, but doesn't Death Ward protect against a bunch of the spells Redcloak uses as well? I think that would be a pretty big factor as well.

Zevox
2011-12-21, 12:11 AM
Besides everyone's favorite dwarf, these are the largest clerical characters in the comic, and both of significant level. I was curious which side everyone would take. I personally believe Malack could defeat Redcloak, just by comparing his abilities in his fight with Nale/Sabine, as compared to Redcloak's fight with Miko. Malack kicked ass, Redcloak's ass was handed to him. Admittedly, we don't know exactly how Nale/Sabine can compare to Miko, but I'm just putting the thought out there.
Considering that Miko beat the entire Order (sans Durkon) in a fight, while Nale and company have yet to beat them ever, I'd be willing to bet that Miko was significantly more powerful than Nale has ever been.

Zevox

Lawyergoblin
2011-12-21, 12:17 AM
But, what about Elan? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)

Erm...I wouldn't really count that. (As funny as it is!)


As far as I can tell, the only deciding factor for Redcloak is Disintegrate. With his poor health, Malack might have trouble resisting its effects, and might be killed outright even if he succeeds it...not sure though, because Clerics have full Fort. saves...I will look into this more.

Emanick
2011-12-21, 12:42 AM
Erm...I wouldn't really count that. (As funny as it is!)


As far as I can tell, the only deciding factor for Redcloak is Disintegrate. With his poor health, Malack might have trouble resisting its effects, and might be killed outright even if he succeeds it...not sure though, because Clerics have full Fort. saves...I will look into this more.

Disintegrate deals 5d6 damage upon a successful save, IIRC. Malack certainly has more than 30 hit points. So he won't be killed outright with a successful save.

Honestly, this sort of matchup comes down largely to luck. Malack seems to be 17th level (or higher), from his comments about soul-eating - I'm guessing that that refers to Trap the Soul or a similar (or worse) non-core 9th level spell. Thus, both he and Redcloak have the same optimal tactic: use high level save-or-die spells until one of them drops. Since Redcloak probably has a higher Constitution score than Malack does, he has a slight edge.

Otherwise, all things considered, it's a pretty even match-up, with the odds too close for us to gauge properly.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-21, 02:37 AM
His comment about Nergal eating Nale's soul makes me think the exact opposite of soul binding--he wants to send him to the afterlife he deserves.

Sith_Happens
2011-12-21, 05:22 AM
Disintegrate deals 5d6 damage upon a successful save, IIRC. Malack certainly has more than 30 hit points. So he won't be killed outright with a successful save.

Honestly, this sort of matchup comes down largely to luck. Malack seems to be 17th level (or higher), from his comments about soul-eating - I'm guessing that that refers to Trap the Soul or a similar (or worse) non-core 9th level spell. Thus, both he and Redcloak have the same optimal tactic: use high level save-or-die spells until one of them drops. Since Redcloak probably has a higher Constitution score than Malack does, he has a slight edge.

Otherwise, all things considered, it's a pretty even match-up, with the odds too close for us to gauge properly.

Unfortunately, that joke has already been used (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html).

Zigg
2011-12-21, 07:11 AM
Considering that Miko beat the entire Order (sans Durkon) in a fight, while Nale and company have yet to beat them ever, I'd be willing to bet that Miko was significantly more powerful than Nale has ever been.

Zevox


Miko beta the entire order in a storm (Haley couldn't shoot) after sneak attacking V with some anti-spell thing (V couldn't cast) with her horse tackling Belkar (Belkar couldn't fight), Elan unable to do his songs (No buffs), Durkon not fighting (No heals or lightning) and Roy wielding a Club (a lot weaker).

Didn't Roy take on Miko fairly easily when he had his sword inside a castle?

Morty
2011-12-21, 07:17 AM
We've yet to see Malack cast any spell of higher level than 6th - the "Nergal will eat your soul" threat can't possibly be used as any sort of evidence - and we know that Redcloak is at least level 15. In addition to that, Redcloak has an artifact at his disposal. So I think that in a straight fight, Malack would be outclassed.

Alge'n
2011-12-21, 09:05 AM
Miko beta the entire order in a storm (Haley couldn't shoot) after sneak attacking V with some anti-spell thing (V couldn't cast) with her horse tackling Belkar (Belkar couldn't fight), Elan unable to do his songs (No buffs), Durkon not fighting (No heals or lightning) and Roy wielding a Club (a lot weaker).

Didn't Roy take on Miko fairly easily when he had his sword inside a castle?

Miko beat them a second time (after the inn), this time in a "normal" situation except Durkon only healing and not fighting and Roy not having his sword. Still not exactly the Order at the peak of its power but quite impressive.

Also when roy beat her she had lost all her paladin power and presumably all her magic equipments.

And when Redcloack fought Miko, he wasn't expecting a one on one fight with a powerful opponent that day, and he thought if that was the case, xykon would take care of it (or at least help him). Spell preparation is pretty damn important for a cleric.

My money would definitely be on Redcloak in case of a fight between him and Malack. So far I think the highest spell levels that Malack has cast is 6 (Harm and Quickened Inflict Moderate wounds) while Redcloak has casted 8th level spells.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-21, 09:08 AM
Besides everyone's favorite dwarf, these are the largest clerical characters in the comic, and both of significant level. I was curious which side everyone would take. I personally believe Malack could defeat Redcloak, just by comparing his abilities in his fight with Nale/Sabine, as compared to Redcloak's fight with Miko. Malack kicked ass, Redcloak's ass was handed to him. Admittedly, we don't know exactly how Nale/Sabine can compare to Miko, but I'm just putting the thought out there.

Miko once beat the entire Order by herself. The Linear Guild are frequently defeated by them. Not to mention, Miko could probably take out the LN very easily - she snapped Sabine's head easy enough. Thus it's not fair to make this comparison based on who beat/was beaten by who here.

We've seen Red Cloak's power and what he's capable of. Malack we have not. Thus far, if the two were to fight, Red Cloak stands a better chance based on what we know.

Dark Matter
2011-12-21, 09:17 AM
...the "Nergal will eat your soul" threat can't possibly be used as any sort of evidence...True, but he came up with a different threat. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html

"His soul is mine", not "Nergal's", "mine". That sounds a lot like Soul Bind.

The general impression I get is Tarquin and his crew are higher level than OOTS.
Nale wasn't impressed by Durkon but he was by Malack.
Tarquin seemed to think he was higher level than Roy.
The Tarquin vs. Elan fight was massively one sided, even allowing for "Fighter vs. Bard".

Further, Tarquin and his crew have the resources of several countries at their disposal, and they seem to be using them intelligently. It's not unreasonable for Malack to have an artifact or some other "you are hosed" item. Also we know there's something seriously funky about Malack because of his speech balloons. Those balloons are normally reserved for people who are dying, but Malack seems pretty spry otherwise.

Or in short, we have strong hints that Malack vs. Redcloak might be a pretty even match. We don't know that, hints are not proof, but it's a real strong possibility.

Morty
2011-12-21, 09:53 AM
Again, those are threats of a man confronted with a person he utterly hates. It might be a reference to Soul Bind, but it's just as likely, if not more, to be simply an expression of Malack's desire to be the one to kill Nale.
As for resources, yes - Tarquin and Malack have a lot of them. But so does Redcloak since, you know, he also has a nation behind him. That, and I doubt Tarquin & c.o. have access to god-granted artifacts.
Regarding Malack's speech baloons - again, hardly compelling evidence. He mentioned his "frail health", which means his speech baloons are most likely to represent a raspy, weak voice of someone chronically ill.
To sum it up, yes, Malack is definetly a very strong cleric, probably a match for Durkon. But Redcloak is almost certainly stronger.

Sethis
2011-12-21, 11:04 AM
I'm just waiting for Tarquin to be bound or captured by magic by the OOTS, only to start the big reveal...

"Iron... HEART... SURGE!"

*Spell shatters*

He seems to me to be an obvious Warblade. It would explain his melee prowess, his Intelligence (Int is a secondary stat) and his Generalship (White Raven manoeuvres make for an amazing commander).

Plus it would open up that feat Roy learned in Heaven from his Grandfather way back when to be Martial Study, for a good manoeuvre.

veti
2011-12-21, 05:21 PM
But, what about Elan? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)

In theological terms, Elan isn't a cleric - he's a prophet, which is a completely different relationship. (No relation to the silly prestige class of that name. Historically, prophets and priests generally hate each other's guts.)

That's why he doesn't need high WIS...

RaggedAngel
2011-12-21, 05:38 PM
I'm just waiting for Tarquin to be bound or captured by magic by the OOTS, only to start the big reveal...

"Iron... HEART... SURGE!"

*Spell shatters*

He seems to me to be an obvious Warblade. It would explain his melee prowess, his Intelligence (Int is a secondary stat) and his Generalship (White Raven manoeuvres make for an amazing commander).

Plus it would open up that feat Roy learned in Heaven from his Grandfather way back when to be Martial Study, for a good manoeuvre.

Huzzah, it isn't just me that thinks that! You don't know how happy this makes me.

We already (spoiler alert) know that Warblades do exist in OotS cannon, but that Roy couldn't become one because his dad wouldn't pay for the PhD program, right? Well, I have a feeling Tarquin would go the extra mile to put his Int to good use, and to narrow the caster-melee gap a little.

Math_Mage
2011-12-21, 08:02 PM
We've yet to see Malack cast any spell of higher level than 6th - the "Nergal will eat your soul" threat can't possibly be used as any sort of evidence - and we know that Redcloak is at least level 15. In addition to that, Redcloak has an artifact at his disposal. So I think that in a straight fight, Malack would be outclassed.

Rather than the soul threat, we have pretty decent evidence that Malack is higher level than Durkon, since Nale was a LOT more worried about Malack. We also know Tarquin's either higher level or just much more combat-capable than Elan. I'd peg Malack at 15.

Emanick
2011-12-22, 02:09 AM
Rather than the soul threat, we have pretty decent evidence that Malack is higher level than Durkon, since Nale was a LOT more worried about Malack. We also know Tarquin's either higher level or just much more combat-capable than Elan. I'd peg Malack at 15.

The party seems to be at around level 15 by now. If Durkon isn't that high level - which I suspect he is - he's close. If Nale is really far more concerned about Malack than Durkon, I'd peg Malack at a level higher than 15 - 16, or (IMO) more likely, 17.

Zevox
2011-12-22, 02:26 AM
Rather than the soul threat, we have pretty decent evidence that Malack is higher level than Durkon, since Nale was a LOT more worried about Malack.
Seems to me that would be at least as likely to be because he knows Malack wants him dead quite badly, and as a cleric of a god of death probably has spells prepared that can do that in one shot. Durkon, not so much - he'll fight him, but he's not going to be throwing around instant-kill spells, and Nale likely knows by now that Durkon tends to spend most of his spells on healing and support anyway, which makes him look like much less of a threat.

I would point out, for the record, that as far as levels go, we know for certain that Redcloak is at least level 15 (he cast Extended Summon Monster VII during the Battle of Azure City, an 8th-level spell), while we've yet to see Malack do anything that required him to be above 11th level (the most powerful spells he has cast are Blade Barrier, Harm, and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds, all 6th-level).

Zevox

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-22, 02:55 AM
Seems to me that would be at least as likely to be because he knows Malack wants him dead quite badly, and as a cleric of a god of death probably has spells prepared that can do that in one shot. Durkon, not so much - he'll fight him, but he's not going to be throwing around instant-kill spells, and Nale likely knows by now that Durkon tends to spend most of his spells on healing and support anyway, which makes him look like much less of a threat.This plus the fact that Durkon is an extremely passive member of a party that decided not to kill him on each opportunity they got. I can easily see why Nale would be more scared of Malack regardless of level.

Math_Mage
2011-12-22, 04:36 AM
The party seems to be at around level 15 by now. If Durkon isn't that high level - which I suspect he is - he's close. If Nale is really far more concerned about Malack than Durkon, I'd peg Malack at a level higher than 15 - 16, or (IMO) more likely, 17.

Durkon loses Holy Word, a 7th-level spell, to Enervation. Ergo he is either 13th or 14th level. There's various hints and circumstantial evidence that Malack is at least as strong, or stronger, than Durkon; but without more direct evidence I'm hesitant to give Malack 9th-level spells. The biggie here is that there's no way Nale would have even considered going up against a 17+ level cleric at...what, level 11? And Malack hasn't exactly had much opportunity to level since then.


Seems to me that would be at least as likely to be because he knows Malack wants him dead quite badly, and as a cleric of a god of death probably has spells prepared that can do that in one shot. Durkon, not so much - he'll fight him, but he's not going to be throwing around instant-kill spells, and Nale likely knows by now that Durkon tends to spend most of his spells on healing and support anyway, which makes him look like much less of a threat.

Fair enough.

Killer Angel
2011-12-22, 05:00 AM
My money would definitely be on Redcloak in case of a fight between him and Malack. So far I think the highest spell levels that Malack has cast is 6 (Harm and Quickened Inflict Moderate wounds) while Redcloak has casted 8th level spells.

This. Evidences, 'til now, show that Redcloak seems stronger than Malack.


I Then again, Malack is awesome, kicks butt, and if I remember correctly, was crushing Nale and Sabine.
Plus he spent years as an adventurer and has to be pretty powerful to be the high priest of a god of death. I can't imagine Tarquin keeping him around for all these years if he wasn't worth his salt.


The same could be said for a cleric that is kept around by an epic sorcerer lich...

Kish
2011-12-22, 09:04 AM
Durkon loses Holy Word, a 7th-level spell, to Enervation. Ergo he is either 13th or 14th level.
Or fifteenth, or sixteenth...he could have lost up to four spells to Enervation. He clearly gained more than one negative level, or he wouldn't have said he'd lost "some o' me best combat spells," instead of just "my Holy Word."

Emanick
2011-12-22, 11:27 AM
Durkon loses Holy Word, a 7th-level spell, to Enervation. Ergo he is either 13th or 14th level. There's various hints and circumstantial evidence that Malack is at least as strong, or stronger, than Durkon; but without more direct evidence I'm hesitant to give Malack 9th-level spells. The biggie here is that there's no way Nale would have even considered going up against a 17+ level cleric at...what, level 11? And Malack hasn't exactly had much opportunity to level since then.

OOTS hadn't even reached level 11 by the time they fought the Linear Guild, and the LG was presumably at the same level they were at. Thus, Nale's party was level 10, level 9, or even lower at the time. I think we can write Nale's attack off as a monumentally stupid blunder regardless of precisely how powerful Tarquin's party was - however big the power gap was, it was big enough to be basically unbreachable.

Dark Matter
2011-12-22, 12:48 PM
Agreed. Ignoring that Malack may have gone up a few levels (unknown but perhaps unlikely), Nale's original fight with his dad may not have been expected, much less part of the plan.

We don't know the situation leading up to that fight. We don't know if it was reasonable for Nale to expect his old man to physically intervene. We don't even know the background on the death of Malack's children.

Mastikator
2011-12-22, 10:06 PM
During the battle of Azure City, that day Red cloak casted the following spells (that we know off)
Greater planar ally x5 (5 large titanium elementals) (or possible summon monster 8, greater elemental) level 8 spell x5
Extended summon monster, level 8 spell 1x

Assuming that the extended was using divine meta magic, he cast 5 level 8 spells in 1 day. In order to do that he needs to be level 20 and have a wisdom of 26, or level 18 with wisdom 36. It's probably the former.

It is theoretically possible that redcloak is epic by now, though main-antagonists don't gain power, they start out maxed out.

Zevox
2011-12-22, 10:51 PM
During the battle of Azure City, that day Red cloak casted the following spells (that we know off)
Greater planar ally x5 (5 large titanium elementals) (or possible summon monster 8, greater elemental) level 8 spell x5
Extended summon monster, level 8 spell 1x
No, because we never saw how or when he summoned those elementals. The Planar Ally line of spells do not have a hard duration limit, so he could have summoned them over the course of previous days. Or he could have used scrolls.

Also, large-size elementals can be summoned with just the regular Planar Ally spell, assuming Titanium elementals work at all like the SRD ones (8HD+ gets you large size, Planar Ally summons up to 12HD of Outsiders or Elementals). That's only a sixth-level spell, so that significantly alters your calculations even if you assume he called them all on the day of the battle. Greater Planar Ally could even get him two of them for one spell, since it allows up to 18HD.

Zevox

Math_Mage
2011-12-22, 11:00 PM
@Kish&co: Ah, right. Durkon is lvl 14-16, and Nale probably didn't plan on fighting Malack.


During the battle of Azure City, that day Red cloak casted the following spells (that we know off)
Greater planar ally x5 (5 large titanium elementals) (or possible summon monster 8, greater elemental) level 8 spell x5
Extended summon monster, level 8 spell 1x

Assuming that the extended was using divine meta magic, he cast 5 level 8 spells in 1 day. In order to do that he needs to be level 20 and have a wisdom of 26, or level 18 with wisdom 36. It's probably the former.

It is theoretically possible that redcloak is epic by now, though main-antagonists don't gain power, they start out maxed out.

That's assuming he didn't have any scrolls lying around, though. Also, if he was summoning large elementals (8HD) with Greater Planar Ally (summons up to 3 elementals with 18HD total), he could summon two per casting. Besides, if he could cast Greater Planar Ally, he would never have wasted it on large elementals, because Summon Monster VI summons large elementals. Even Extended Summon Monster VI wouldn't require Redcloak to be above 16th level with no bonus 8th-level spells.

(That said, I happen to think those were Huge elementals, which would imply Summon Monster VII.)

EDIT: 100% ninja'd.

Boogastreehouse
2011-12-23, 03:47 AM
Barring weird circumstances, I'm of the belief that Redcloak would win.

Even if Malack is a higher level than Redcloak, which I doubt—I have a gut feeling that they're about the same—I feel that Redcloak has the advantage. RC is a planner and a clever tactician and we have no evidence at this time to suggest that M. is in his league. Malack appears content letting Tarquin make all his decisions for him. I'd be surprised if Reddy doesn't already have a plan set up for a surprise encounter with a cleric. He sure had one in place when a wizard attacked them out of the blue.

Redcloak is also more observant and adept at deduction than Malack has demonstrated himself to be (though I still wonder if he was playing dumb as part of a good-Tarquin-bad-Malack game with Nale).

Add to that the fact that RC has a major artifact from his deity, and I don't think Malack has a chance.

Grim Reader
2011-12-23, 05:48 AM
It is possible that Nales fear of Malac was not based on considerations of relative power. Through his childhood, Malack must have been an object of terrifying power. It may be just like a huge bruiser being completly intimidated by his childhood teacher.

On the other hand, given the optimization level of the OOTS-verse, Malack could be a very high level indeed, but have a 16 wisdom...

Dark Matter
2011-12-23, 09:01 AM
On the other hand, given the optimization level of the OOTS-verse, Malack could be a very high level indeed, but have a 16 wisdom...Possible... but imho it's unlikely. Ignore that Malack is supposed to be fearsome, ignore that we've never seen this kind of mismatch. If it were true it'd be too good a joke to not mention it, and it's also an amazingly important detail to not mention.


It is possible that Nales fear of Malac was not based on considerations of relative power. Through his childhood, Malack must have been an object of terrifying power.Yeah, that. This works even better in combination with the whole "has motive to kill Nale" and the "Cleric of death god - doesn't have problems killing" things.

On the other hand, narratively that scene showcased Nale has good reason to be afraid. On a side note, Tarquin has to know it's just asking for trouble to have a team with both Malack and Nale, one or the other is being set up.

In terms of min/maxing, Redcloak is pretty buff by OOTS standards. Tarquin might be, Nale however is not. Malack... we're not sure yet. Even if he were just Nale's level, he could have pulled that off by just having a "generic" build, aka Durkon.

My feeling is that Redcloak, as a world class villain, is probably too much for Malack... but Malack & Tarquin may be in the process of also establishing themselves as a world class villains.

There's a rule of drama which says "start slowly and build".

Nabirius
2011-12-23, 12:28 PM
I think Redcloak mostly because he can rely on things that aren't touch range and he has numerous spells that aren't save-or-die, but also have some fairly dangerous secondary effects. I also think Redcloak is higher level than Malack and would therefore be able to rebuke the minions Malack makes (assuming Death Domain).

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-12-23, 03:50 PM
I would assume Redcloak. I think Redcloak is higher level just because he is the right hand man of the main villain while Malack is the right hand man of a lesser villain. The fact that Malack is now a member of the Linear Guild also means he is doomed to failure in any encounter.

NegativeFifteen
2011-12-24, 12:39 PM
We need a fight speculation thread. There are a couple I've wanted to ask that don't feel like they deserve a thread to themselves.

My money is on Redcloak, though from what I've read, people aren't giving Malack (Mass Death Ward was imagined by Rich as a seventh level spell, so he can cast those, I'm assuming.) enough credit. He's in poor health, that's what would give Redcloak the upper hand.

Kish
2011-12-24, 12:41 PM
Malack didn't cast Mass Death Ward. He helped Durkon research it; Durkon hasn't yet cast it successfully.

I think Malack probably can cast seventh-level spells, but he never has onstage. Redcloak? Has cast eighth-level spells.

Lawyergoblin
2011-12-24, 02:05 PM
Give me a few days and I'll set up a fight speculation thread! I don't have time at the moment, so if someone else has a minute feel free to open the doors.

Morty
2011-12-24, 06:30 PM
It has occured to me that it seems unlikely Malack wouldn't throw his most powerful spells at Nale when confronted with him, given his pure hatred of him. It's by no means definite evidence, but it's at least a hint that Malack's highest spell level is 6th.

Darthteej
2011-12-25, 03:07 AM
I would point out, for the record, that as far as levels go, we know for certain that Redcloak is at least level 17 (he mentions being able to cast 9th level spells in Start of Darkness)


I'm not insane right? This happened?

Kish
2011-12-25, 09:16 AM
I'm not insane right? This happened?
Sorry...I have bad news.

Redcloak has never cast a ninth-level spell or said that he can. Not online, not in any of the books.

Dark Matter
2011-12-25, 03:46 PM
It has occured to me that it seems unlikely Malack wouldn't throw his most powerful spells at Nale when confronted with him, given his pure hatred of him. It's by no means definite evidence, but it's at least a hint that Malack's highest spell level is 6th.Assuming he has spells above 6th level, I'm impressed that Malack didn't reach for his highest level spells. You don't get more effective than a one round kill which ignores save.

Redcloak, in the same situation, didn't do as well.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html

Both Clerics had just "walking around spells", both were caught by surprise, both had one round to act. Malack almost pulled off a one round kill, Redcloak reached for "Disintegration" (against a fighter/Paladin with massive hitpoints and a massive Fort save), rather than a lower spell which would have worked better.

Sith_Happens
2011-12-25, 04:30 PM
Assuming he has spells above 6th level, I'm impressed that Malack didn't reach for his highest level spells. You don't get more effective than a one round kill which ignores save.

Redcloak, in the same situation, didn't do as well.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html

Both Clerics had just "walking around spells", both were caught by surprise, both had one round to act. Malack almost pulled off a one round kill, Redcloak reached for "Disintegration" (against a fighter/Paladin with massive hitpoints and a massive Fort save), rather than a lower spell which would have worked better.

To be fair, you try making a proper, well thought-out spell choice while O-Chul is charging you with an eight foot shank.:smalltongue:

Zevox
2011-12-25, 05:09 PM
Assuming he has spells above 6th level, I'm impressed that Malack didn't reach for his highest level spells. You don't get more effective than a one round kill which ignores save.
:smallconfused: There's no such things as a instant-kill spell that ignores saves.

Zevox

Icedaemon
2011-12-25, 06:31 PM
:smallconfused: There's no such things as a instant-kill spell that ignores saves.

Zevox

One believes what was meant was: When cast by a high-level cleric a harm which the target makes the save against is more, well, harmful than a disintegrate which the target makes the save for.

Assuming that level Malack is level 15, Harm would do at most 150, at the least 75 damage (unless the target had less health than that). If he is at 18, not out of the question, it would be 180 and 90 respectively.

Redcloak is at 18 minimum, from what this thread has suggested. Disintegrate would deal 36d6 damage when not saved, which can be as much as 216 or as little as 36. No matter his level, if O'chul made the save he only took 5d6 damage - at most 30.

Zevox
2011-12-25, 07:03 PM
One believes what was meant was: When cast by a high-level cleric a harm which the target makes the save against is more, well, harmful than a disintegrate which the target makes the save for.
[SIZE="2"]
Assuming that level Malack is level 15, Harm would do at most 150, at the least 75 damage (unless the target had less health than that). If he is at 18, not out of the question, it would be 180 and 90 respectively.
Actually, you're wrong on that last. Harm caps out at 150 damage on a failed save, 75 on success.

But he wasn't comparing it to Disintegrate there, he mentioned a "one round kill that ignores saves." And there's simply no such thing, unless you can deal enough damage to wipe out the target's hp in one round, which is never guaranteed since it depends on what the target's hp is.


Redcloak is at 18 minimum, from what this thread has suggested.
No he isn't, he's at 15 minimum. We've seen him cast 8th-level spells, but never seen anything indicating a higher minimum level than that.

Zevox

Dark Matter
2011-12-25, 09:53 PM
To be fair, you try making a proper, well thought-out spell choice while O-Chul is charging you with an eight foot shank.:smalltongue:Hold Person. Or even just screaming "Xykon" works (with or without Word of Recall).


:smallconfused: There's no such things as a instant-kill spell that ignores saves.I didn't say "instant", I said "one round".

And Harm comes pretty close when used on someone with 75 or less hit points (Nale for example), followed up with a Quickened Inflict.


But he wasn't comparing it to Disintegrate there, he mentioned a "one round kill that ignores saves." And there's simply no such thing, unless you can deal enough damage to wipe out the target's hp in one round, which is never guaranteed since it depends on what the target's hp is.Redcloak knew O'Chul was a Fighter/Paladin multiclass with an amazing Con and seriously impressive number of hitpoints.

Thus O'Chul has a bad or poor Will Save, an amazing Fort Save, and he shouldn't be expected to take much damage from Disintegrate. Worse, even if he hadn't made his save, O'Chul STILL wouldn't have died because 30 dice of damage just wasn't going to do it.

Disintegrate was a big, high level, splashy spell which wasn't going to get the job done. Hold Person isn't a big, high level, splashy spell but it would have worked.


Malack was basically in the same situation. He also knew enough about his foe's build to focus on his weak point, and unlike Redcloak, he did so. Nale presumably has 80 or fewer hit points, if we assume he makes his save both times, he'd still die.

With no notice or pre-planning, Malack made much better choices than Redcloak.

Zevox
2011-12-25, 09:58 PM
I didn't say "instant", I said "one round".

And Harm comes pretty close when used on someone with 75 or less hit points (Nale for example), followed up with a Quickened Inflict.
Problem being that we don't know what Nale's hit points are.

Zevox

Dark Matter
2011-12-25, 10:34 PM
Problem being that we don't know what Nale's hit points are.We don't know the exact number, but we've got a general idea, and so does Malack.

Nale is a fighter/rogue/sorcerer with 8+ levels in sorcerer and 2+ in rogue. Nale presumably has the same Con and level as Elan. We've had no evidence to suggest Elan even has a Con bonus.

Average rolling for what we know gives him 32.5 hit points. Assuming he's level 14 then we're missing three levels worth of hit points, even if all three are fighter then that doesn't change anything. Even if he has a 12 or 14 Con then that still doesn't change anything.

Drop 80 points of damage on him, and smart money says he dies then and there.

And that's the central point right there. Malack's plan was sound and effective, given what he knew it should have worked. Redcloak's plan against O'Chul was amazingly ineffective, given what he knew it shouldn't have worked.

Spookymurloc
2011-12-26, 07:10 PM
Hold Person. Or even just screaming "Xykon" works (with or without Word of Recall).


I'm not a DnD player so I can't offer much to this debate, but I think in every instance where hold person was used on a paladin, it has failed.
I think Miko actually made a comment about the gods protecting her from such magic when she first attacks the Order, and that protection would probably apply to all paladins.

This may be why Redcloak didn't try to use Hold Person on O-Chul.
(That said, I think Xykon paralyzed him with a different spell when he attacked the throne room, and I'm not sure whether Xykon used Hold Person or a different spell on O-Chul and V when he flew off to get his phylactery back.)

Kish
2011-12-26, 07:19 PM
I'm not a DnD player so I can't offer much to this debate, but I think in every instance where hold person was used on a paladin, it has failed.

Divine Grace: Paladins add their Charisma bonus to all their saving throws. Since O-Chul established that Charisma is his dump stat...


(That said, I think Xykon paralyzed him with a different spell

A lich's paralyzing touch. Not a spell.

when he attacked the throne room, and I'm not sure whether Xykon used Hold Person or a different spell

"Mass Hold Person," he said.

Of course, O-Chul somehow threw it off early.

Spookymurloc
2011-12-26, 07:23 PM
Divine Grace: Paladins add their Charisma bonus to all their saving throws. Since O-Chul established that Charisma is his dump stat...

A lich's paralyzing touch. Not a spell.

"Mass Hold Person," he said.

Of course, O-Chul somehow threw it off early.

Right then, I'll just go back to the corner...
:smallredface:

Kish
2011-12-26, 07:30 PM
No need to be embarrassed.

How O-Chul threw off the Mass Hold Person is a mystery to me as well, for all my D&D knowledge.

Zevox
2011-12-26, 07:35 PM
I'm not a DnD player so I can't offer much to this debate, but I think in every instance where hold person was used on a paladin, it has failed.
I think Miko actually made a comment about the gods protecting her from such magic when she first attacks the Order, and that protection would probably apply to all paladins.

This may be why Redcloak didn't try to use Hold Person on O-Chul.
(That said, I think Xykon paralyzed him with a different spell when he attacked the throne room, and I'm not sure whether Xykon used Hold Person or a different spell on O-Chul and V when he flew off to get his phylactery back.)
Paladins can be affected by Hold Person just fine. The "protection of the gods" remark you're thinking of, assuming it happened, would have been referring to the "Divine Grace" ability, which lets Paladins add their charisma bonus to their saves, normally making it harder to affect them with anything offering a save than many other classes. O-Chul, however, has a low charisma score, so he doesn't really benefit from that. Most likely the only save worth a damn that he has is fortitude, while Hold Person is a will save spell.

Xykon's paralysis, incidentally, is a Lich racial trait. His touch causes paralysis, with a fortitude save. Most likely the fact that he was able to paralyze a high-constitution Paladin like O-Chul means that his save for that ability is through the roof, which would make sense given it's tied to his charisma score, the main stat his class requires, and his HD, which is based on his level, which we know to be very high.

Zevox

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-26, 09:17 PM
How O-Chul threw off the Mass Hold Person is a mystery to me as well, for all my D&D knowledge.
While he doesn't specifically say the words Iron Heart Surge...

Doug Lampert
2011-12-26, 09:42 PM
While he doesn't specifically say the words Iron Heart Surge...

Alternately, Mass Hold Person references hold person for effects, and hold person allows a save every round, there's a perfectly good mechanical way to throw it off, roll a 20 on a save. (Of course the new save is a full round action so O'Chul should still be frozen for long enough for Xykon to finish him off. But that's another issue unless we have an exact breakdown into rounds with all actions accounted for.)

Forikroder
2011-12-26, 10:23 PM
Rather than the soul threat, we have pretty decent evidence that Malack is higher level than Durkon, since Nale was a LOT more worried about Malack. We also know Tarquin's either higher level or just much more combat-capable than Elan. I'd peg Malack at 15.

and sabine was extremely worried about Durkon

Nale was worried becuase they were going agaisnt a divine spellcaster with a demon and a melee fighter

none of the cahracters in OoTS should be considered to have a level becuase they can win any fight lose any fight cast any spell or have any feat rich wants them to at any time he wants them to ahve it

Lord Tyger
2011-12-26, 10:40 PM
Looking at it in terms of how the character has acted rather than what their class would suggest, O-Chul's will save is pretty damn impressive- see: the entire time he was being held by Team Evil. He actually comes off as fairly Wise too, given all his talks with the Monster in the Darkness.

Dark Matter
2011-12-27, 08:52 AM
Alternately, Mass Hold Person references hold person for effects, and hold person allows a save every round, there's a perfectly good mechanical way to throw it off, roll a 20 on a save. (Of course the new save is a full round action so O'Chul should still be frozen for long enough for Xykon to finish him off.O'Chul was frozen long enough for Xykon to finish him off. Xykon decided to chase his soul-thing rather than kill O'Chul, that took at least one round, perhaps more.


Looking at it in terms of how the character has acted rather than what their class would suggest, O-Chul's will save is pretty damn impressive- see: the entire time he was being held by Team Evil. He actually comes off as fairly Wise too, given all his talks with the Monster in the Darkness.Paladins gain immunity to fear at a pretty low level. I think resisting Torture and Intimidation is included in that.

On a side note Miko's will save would have been a lot higher than O'Chul's. Even ignoring she was higher level, Miko had a Chr bonus, and Monks have great will saves (Paladins and Fighters do not).

Doug Lampert
2011-12-27, 11:04 AM
While he doesn't specifically say the words Iron Heart Surge...

If he'd had that at the time he'd have used it on Xykon's parallysis in the throne room, which means he didn't have it then. So you have to assume he's leveled up since, taken the feat or multiclass level to get the power, and then used a non-core power without any in comic reference to that effect.

Alternately, and with no special assumptions, he got to attempt a new save every round and he made one. It doesn't matter how bad his will save is, or how good Xykon's DC is, there is an absolute minimum of a 5% chance every 6 seconds that a hold person (or mass hold person) will fail on any given target.

Forikroder
2011-12-27, 11:19 AM
O'Chul was frozen long enough for Xykon to finish him off. Xykon decided to chase his soul-thing rather than kill O'Chul, that took at least one round, perhaps more.

Paladins gain immunity to fear at a pretty low level. I think resisting Torture and Intimidation is included in that.

On a side note Miko's will save would have been a lot higher than O'Chul's. Even ignoring she was higher level, Miko had a Chr bonus, and Monks have great will saves (Paladins and Fighters do not).

she had levels of monk though so dunno how much that would affect her will but whos to say Mikos Chr is higher then Ochuls?

Kish
2011-12-27, 11:33 AM
She is established as able to use Lay On Hands, so her Charisma is no lower than 12.

O-Chul described Charisma as his dump stat, when explaining why he's the worst liar Redcloak has ever met.

Does that prove his Charisma is lower than 12? No. But for a Charisma as high as 12 to make sense for him would require:
1) His rolled stats being Higher-than-12x5 and one 12.
2) Everyone Redcloak has ever assessed the lying skills of, including the observation "are you ever a rotten liar," having a higher-than-+1 Bluff check.

Not the way I'd bet.

If he'd had that at the time he'd have used it on Xykon's parallysis in the throne room, which means he didn't have it then. So you have to assume he's leveled up since, taken the feat or multiclass level to get the power, and then used a non-core power without any in comic reference to that effect.

You'd also have to assume he has three levels of Warblade. He's mentioned levels of fighter and paladin. Not warblade.

Dark Matter
2011-12-27, 11:45 AM
she had levels of monk though so dunno how much that would affect her will but whos to say Mikos Chr is higher then Ochuls?She had at least 2 levels of Monk (Evasion) giving her a +3 (coincidently min/maxing for Will Save). Miko's Chr was high enough to turn heads (specifically Roy's), i.e. she hits the radar as being physically very attractive. She could also Lay on hands (amount = Chr Bonus x Paladin Level).

O'Chul said Chr was his dump stat and he hits the radar as being physically unattractive.

So she is going to have two very solid bonuses to her Will Save even apart from level, and he has basically nothing... meaning his weak point is right above his neck and Redcloak should really have known that.

The same thing applies to Reflex saves but there O'Chul's massive hit point total help, even if he doesn't save he can still take the damage.

Alagaesian
2011-12-27, 12:10 PM
Redcloak, of course.

Arguments of level/constitution/who beat whom aside, Redcloak is a well-developed partner to a major villain. Malack is the less-developed partner to a side-villain. Reddie is pretty much guaranteed to survive through this arc, whereas Malack is not. Also, Malack is now the friend of a protagonist who desperately needs some character development. Not only is his death very possible, but somewhat probable.

But when we remove storytelling conventions? I have no idea. Miko wouldn't have won against the Order twice if she wasn't "lucky", and that luck heavily depended on the fact that the Order needed to learn about the Snarl for the plot to continue in the right direction. Likewise, Nale wouldn't have lost against the Order twice if it weren't for the deus ex machinas that occurred to make sure the protagonists didn't die. Frankly, when you have two high-level clerics with a decent array of save-or-die spells, either of them could win.

thereaper
2011-12-28, 08:32 PM
Assuming that they are near the same ECL, Redcloak has the advantage, because he isn't saddled with LA and RHD.