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View Full Version : Sorcerers, and other things that dont make sense.



hyenahyena
2006-03-27, 12:11 PM
I've been playing DnD for a few months now, and taken the time to totally read through quite a few of the manuals (I'm kinda lame like that, I like to know about stuff) And after reading through all this stuff, there are a few things which really really make my mind-brain twitch.
I'm truly all for fantasy settings, and vague explinations on things, I like mystery!

And some dnd things are 'very' mysterious. Mysterious to the point where you find yourself thinking questions like 'why on earth would..' or 'what in gods sweet name does this..' or even 'What were they thinking?'

Like, I'm just curious if anyone else sees things my way? Or am I just completely wrong here.




Sorcerer.

The first thing about the game, spesifically classes, that made me curious, was the sorcerer class. I think im the only person in the world who sees things this way, but Seriously, if you If you compare wizard to sorcerer, the two side by side, the differences are pretty much only numbers on a page. Even the explination that sorcerers have some deep talent for magic doesn't make a lick of logic, when you hold it up to what wizards are.

Wizards cast arcane spells from years of study. They devote their lives to the mastery of magic. These guys are the kids that got good grades, went to harvard, and got a masters in nuclear physics.

In this respect, a sorcerer is like a child who was born knowing masters-level nuclear physics. Something like this should barely be counted as its regular race, this is a creature with an inborn knowledge of magic.

I can totally deal with having magic as creative natural talent. But these guys cast the same spells as a wizard. That's like a haiku poet knowing bits of rocket science. The fact that sorcerers know only a limited amount of spells doesn't dismiss this. The most original thing they have going for them, is spontaneous casting which does support the creative aspect. But, im an artist, Creativity is 'not' simply choosing which drawing i want to draw from a pre-made list.
Honestly if sorcerers are what they claim to be, then they definately should not pull spells straight from the arcane tree. I dont know what they should do.
The way the warlock class was done, comes to mind however. (ps, i liked that class)

To me, it seems the sorcerer class is at best, an interesting wizard variant.

And at worst a poor attempt during the initial conceptualisation of dnd, to give arcane magic another class that uses it.




~~~monk.
The other class that really, really makes me want to point fingers and say accusing things, is 'Monk'.
Holy oh my god.

You can pretty much list the things that seem unrelated to martial arts/monks.

when do martial artists get to run super fast? Have you ever seen a karate champion in the 100 meter sprints at the olympics?
By level 20, which i do understand is meant to represent an epically powerful human being, but they're running +60feet. And if they've taken the run feet, thats what, the average human is doing 30+60x5 ?
Thats faster then a sprinting horse! Something like 75 feet per second. These guys could run at you like a torpedo. Roll save vs human bullet.

Also, being an good martial artist lets them teleport once a week. huh. You know i did karate for 5 years and we never covered that. I've heard of a lot of weird things to do with asian monks, like levitation, xi gong (aka, punching people yards away with your ki), but ive never heard of being able to walk through walls. once a week.

Also, monks. What relation to religion do these guys have? aside from knowledge>religion. Theres a lot of references to martial arts and meditation and ki, but no spesific religious conatations. Why not just rename the class 'saw an old kung fu movie once' and be done with it.

I can see the in depth research they did into martial arts and monks when designing this.

'err..yeah like, we saw this film once..it was all in, chinese, these dudes jumped around a lot ,and like...punched stuff, then he used this thing and he hit a guy then he thought about him dying and he did....yeah. He was a monk'

I can see that happening. Also, how come all martial artists all practice the same martial art? What a magical world it is, when there is a universal martial art practiced by all 'monks', probably high on a mountain top somewhere in a sodding monestary behind large iron doors. It's almost like a bloody terry pratchett concept. And I love terry pratchett. But that doesnt make the idea of it any better. (never forget rule number 1!)

And ive read complete warrior, ive seen the tactical feats and weapon style feats. Which is all very well and good. But in a land filled with wizards who can choose from hundreds of spells, fighters who can specialise in tons of weapons and still be effective, a monk just seems so...boring. When really martial arts should be 'more' varied and interesting then simply hitting people with a sword.
The oriental adventures had some pretty ok stuff in terms of martial arts, but it wasnt monk spesific and given the environment of a fantasy setting, i dont understand why people need to limit themselves to 'crane style' when there are animals like blink dogs and actual unicorns running around. So much potential.

And i 'have' redesigned monks for my own games, took me over a week, and i damn well invented 8 more bloody martial art styles and how to incorporate them. so its not like im complaining and done nothing.

Ok! i think its asleep time.
if your ead any of that, thank you : ) id appreciate any feed back as to whether or not any of that made sense.

Starbuck_II
2006-03-27, 01:00 PM
Sorc needs his flavor to be better supported.
Flavor says inborn magic, but he needs everything the wizard needs. He just has Spell Mastery for all of his spells (in mechanics).

Multiple people have created Sorceror Fixes.
1) Some because theyare underpowered in their opinion.
2) Better support Flavor
3) Bettee support flavor and power.
4) Make them unique and not just spontaous Wizards without bonus feats

The best made Monk remake in my opinion is Lotus Cranes:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=608534

He has the monk school ideas. Full bab (but lost Flurry and unarmed damage 1 die).

Monks are WotC's way of trying to make unarmed combatants yet still hook it with mysticalism.
They should have just made a Mystical one and full bab unarmed combat one. Both make more sense than conbining them.

Toliudar
2006-03-27, 01:03 PM
I won't comment too much on the monk: for me, that class was never just about taking a martial arts mastery and putting it into the fantasy context. That's why the "schools of training" variants of monk leave me cold. I saw it as a class that called upon inner spirituality to allow for some extraordinary (I'd say magical, but then we get into an anti-magic field conversation, and that's not the intent of this game) effects.

What the heck? Many of these professions link back to Jungian symbols, and often have relatively little to do with their real-world counterparts. Why do Barbarians get to run faster than rogues? Why can divine spells with somatic components be cast while encased in 50 pounds of armour, but magic missile has a hard time. Because it's evoking a specific set of archetypes primarily from myth and literature.


Okay, the sorcerer. I loved your comment about

That's like a haiku poet knowing bits of rocket science.

Because I think that that's not a bad analogy. If wizards are the scientists of this fantasy world, sorcerers are its artists, its idiot savants, and its mad geniuses. They have an intuitive grasp of how things work, and can exploit them. It comes back to the spirit of such scientists as Feynmann and Einstein, saying that creativity is the foundation of science. In many fantasy worlds, the intuitive ability to grasp and manipulate the forces of the universe is a familiar theme. The sorcerer fits right in in many of these worlds.

If your objection is with the spells coming out the same as some wizard spells, then change some of their fluff (my sorcerer's magic missiles come out of his chest and spiral in on their target - but that doesn't change the mechanics of the spell), or encouage PC's playing sorcerers to customize one or more of their spells. There's tons of information on how to do so.

Alternately, you could restrict some spells in your world, diverging the wizard and sorcerer spell lists. Hell, you could choose to block off whole schools from one or the other, if you want to increase the differentiation. Alternately, there are a thousand RP/setting devices you can use to play up the differences between wizards and sorcerers.

Gralamin
2006-03-27, 01:14 PM
By level 20, which i do understand is meant to represent an epically powerful human being, but they're running +60feet. And if they've taken the run feet, thats what, the average human is doing 30+60x5 ?
Thats faster then a sprinting horse! Something like 75 feet per second. These guys could run at you like a torpedo. Roll save vs human bullet.

Yes 75 ft/second is Correct. I think that type of speed should actually pull your body apart. I mean If you move 3 quarters a foot in a millisecond your body is not going to be in a very good condition.

Radiant
2006-03-27, 01:24 PM
Underpowered? Sorcerers in 3.0 (no, I don't have the money to convert) are better at prestige classes than wizards because they don't lose bonus feats (in a standard magic game a sorcerer can do well with his enormous spells-per-day figures and stick to what he finds as far as magic items go, and enhanced sorcerer spells take a deal of time to cast, so you don't really need much in the way of metamagic & item creation).

The standard monk is just a cool class to include in the game (if you like it, of course). They are definitely oriental and thus exotic in a standard game (which is medieval-european), so you don't see lots of them very often, and one path of development is enough. If you do, though, there is certainly a need for diversity (inclusion of prestige classes perhaps? - see Oriental Adventures). Then again, if you focus on arcane magic, you need wizardly (and sorcererly) prestige classes (and maybe also new core classes), a clerically focused campaign ruleset should include at least one prestige class for each deity...

Maryring
2006-03-27, 01:41 PM
But Wizards and Clerics make sense :D Sorry, I just had too. Now I actually like the Sorcerer fluff, but your post does make sense. Of course, remember that it uses Charisma instead of Intelligence. You don't know the spells. You're just awfully good at bluffing it.

And the Monk... is "Like, soooooo cool, like, just like the movies". But I don't care much because that's what's fun to play. And remember that it's the mechanics that are the same. But where one monk would spin kick his opponents into oblivion, this other monk would crack walls with her head. The numbers are still the same, and in every book I have read, except for BoVD, have I seen at least one Monk PrC.

Democratus
2006-03-27, 01:49 PM
The difference between Wizards and Sorcerers is like the difference between Iron Man and Superman.

One had to use science to achieve super powers. The other was simply born with them.

Dragonmuncher
2006-03-27, 01:55 PM
It helps if you don't think of a Monk as a "martial artist." That's the temptation, especially since we're trying to think of D&D as something that makes "sense."

Think of it this way- don't call the Monk a "Monk." Call it a... Flemen.

The Flemen is a class that draws on the inner life force power that is in all living things. By drawing on it through special meditative techniques and "mind over matter," the Flemen can do amazing things, like run fast, teleport, and punch through armor. Eventually he becomes so at one with the universal life force that he actually becomes a quasi-divine being.

If you take away all preconceptions about living in monastaries, or acting in badly-dubbed movies, or "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," it makes as much sense as say, a wizard who can cast spells by forcing his mind into the mental equivilants of a contortionist, or a Warlock that can just shoot blasts out of his hands all day.

Ing
2006-03-27, 01:59 PM
big problem i always had, was that if Sorceror's are the inherient accidental kinda reach puberty inadvertantly blew up the family dog, type chars with inherient magical powers, why the hell is it so useless to ross class to wizard. i mean if they inheriently have great magical powers shouldn't their powers only get augmented from learning about their great powers and actually learning where they come from, instead of being freaking useless!?

Democratus
2006-03-27, 02:02 PM
It depends.

It wouldn't be very useful for superman to know how to build an Iron Man suit. Sure, he could put it on - but it would only give him a strength of (for example) 40 when he already has a strength of 40. So there's little added benefit.

bosssmiley
2006-03-27, 02:14 PM
The difference between Wizards and Sorcerers is like the difference between Iron Man and Superman.

One had to use science to achieve super powers. The other was simply born with them.
Democratus has the right of it (as is so often the case for him :) ). A wizard will spend a decade at UU, Hogwarts or wherever learning to harness magic through rotes and formulae. A sorceror, by contrast, spends their formative years struggling to master the untrained power their ancestry or destiny (as you prefer) has bestowed upon them. UA's bloodlines did wonders for sorcerors: I read that section of the book and *properly* saw where they fitted in to D&D.

The two mage classes reflect different views/traditions of magic: the learned hermetic scholar and philosopher-magus (John Dee, Faustus, or perhaps Prospero from "The Tempest") vs. the terrifying innate magic of blood and fate (Thulsa Doom, or Merlin).

As for the monk, who *doesn't* have some part of them that wants to play the inscrutable mystic who quotes peace and harmony at people while scuttling up walls and kicking out their kidneys. Someone's buying all those kung-fu movies. ;)

The D&D monk is a distillation of all the legends and fantasies of martial arts. As they advance in level these guys change from being martial artists via Hong Kong action heroes (Bruce Lee, Jet Li or Sammo Heung) to being something like Monkey from "Journey to the West": a folkloric hero who races the winds, runs up waterfalls and fights demons with his bare hands.

Throw in Complete Warrior, UA (Ise-Zumi!) & Dragon mag support for monks ("Mmmmm...Shen shapeshifter PrC") and no-one can reasonably call them one trick ponies.

The monk boring? The sorceror without precedent?

...

:-/

Yossarian
2006-03-27, 02:19 PM
I think a lot of the premise comes from the underlying assertion that magic is directly comparable to science, which I think is a faulty premise. There is a science of sorts underlying magic, yes, but the actual practice of it more resembles an art. Some artists cultivate their talent through rigorous practice and study; others just have a natural flair they improvise upon.

Person_Man
2006-03-27, 02:39 PM
The correct answer is that D&D is written so that 14 year olds can understand it. Most 14 year olds can't understand or wouldn't use 8 different schools of unarmed combat, or 4 different types of magic. So they created 1 unarmed combat specialist with some cool powers, and two types of magic.

There are also tons of supplements and its open game content, so it can be infinitely modified and expanded to fit the needs/tastes/beliefs of pretty much any gamer of any age.

If you're hung up on "real-life" combat or magic rules that make more sense, you may wish to consider GURPS or one some other game. D&D is popular because its workable and relatively simple while simultanously being massively expandable. It's the same reason people use Microsoft Windows. Yes, it sucks for lots of reasons. But it does what 90% of the people in the world want, 90% of the time.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-27, 02:41 PM
I think the problem he's having with the sorcerer is why they use the exact same system as the wizard to cast their spells. For instance why a sorcerer, who's magic requires no external or formalized training happens to use the exact same gestures, words, and components to produce say...a blast of fire as a wizard (or so identical that a scroll made by a sorcerer and a is totally interchangable, the spellcraft check to ID it is identical, etc.).

Why does the sorcerer, who supposedly calls upon these vast inner strengths to fuel his power and in fact probably learned all his magic himself, using sulfur and bat guano? Did he suddenly have an urge to go and do some spelunking while practicing that fire spell that just wouldn't go the way he wants it to? I think that's the problem with the 'artistic and intuitive genius' idea of the sorcerer, if they're so artistic how come every sorcerer who produces X effect does it in the exact same way. Sure one might have a fireball colored purple or something but it still uses magic twiddle Z combined with arcane speach X, with appropraite amounts of dung and sulfur.

The suggestion to change the flavor text is probably the best way to bring it in line with the mechanics but of course that just reinforces the fact that the original is flawed.

Of course I like playing sorcerers myself. I just assume that the spells of a sorcerer are no more 'a part of him' than a wizards (which is just reinforced by the sorcerer's ability to 'drop' spells). The training of a wizard is not geared mainly towards learning new spells (which is fairly easy, mechanics-wise) but towards 'fueling' them, disciplines to draw out the magical power and shape it with the rote formula. Because of their limited training sorcerers know only a very few 'rituals' but they do have the innate ability to draw upon the power of magic and require no training at all to do it.


Personally the biggest problem I've had with the sorcerer is that it's a class that assumes a character's background, yet follows the exact same rules for multiclassing and everything else. So while person who starts at 1st level as sorcerer probably had a weird childhood full of strange events and magicalness, person who is a 14th level cleric and just wants to be able to use some of those arcane spell completion items he's got can pop right into the class with no problem.


As for the monk, I think the problem is that you're thinking about it the wrong way. It's meant to be an 'action movie' class, the etherealness and teleportation are just a little bit of ninja that fell in the mix. A 'karate' master would be a fighter with focus in unarmed feats, a monk is someone who's discipline and training allows them to enhance their physical abilities to supernatural levels. It would go against the philosophy of the class to focus soley on the ability to punch really hard, so they improve themselves in a variety of ways (speed, endurance, skills, etc.)

storybookknight
2006-03-27, 02:47 PM
Strictly speaking, there's about NO logic behind people barehandedly being able to take out crowds of trained swordsmen, punch through armor, etc - meaning that a mundane martial artist would be hugely disadvantaged. Some of the monk abilities given are there for the purposes of game balance and no other reason... maybe not the best flavor from the martial artist point of view, but I agree with Boss Smiley on that score as to what WotC wanted from it.

As for sorcerers, I don't have a problem with them... though Merlin I think was a wizard, rather than a sorcerer.

Malachite
2006-03-27, 02:48 PM
You think 75ft per second is bad, wait until they hit level 30
Base speed of 130ft, x5 and /6 =108.3 ft/s

And imagine a lvl 30 Centaur(50ft) monk with Horseshoes of Speed(+30ft): 180ft per second (900ft per round!!!). In fact, I may just do that solely to see the expression on the DM's face when I outrun spells and jump the Grand Canyon.

Then again, knowing him he'd tell me I tripped on a root and tore my leg off, before ploughing head first into the ground and crushing myself into a pancake...

Mal

Orion-the-G
2006-03-27, 02:51 PM
Heh, merlin was a mythological character who did not follow any sort of game rules any more than gandalf did. If you had to make a choice then he would be more sorcerer since his powers were inherent (I believe he may have had demon blood even).

Of course he's referred to as a wizard because only D+D makes a distinction.

Thomas
2006-03-27, 02:53 PM
Monks?

Watched any Chinese movies? That's what the monk is about. Jet Li, House of Flying Daggers, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, wuxia up the wazoo.

They're not martial artists, by a long shot. A fighter with unarmed combat feats is a martial artist. Monks are a representation of an archetype of chinese popular culture and myth, just like the wizard is a representation of western popular culture and myth.

InaVegt
2006-03-27, 02:58 PM
Heh, merlin was a mythological character who did not follow any sort of game rules any more than gandalf did. If you had to make a choice then he would be more sorcerer since his powers were inherent (I believe he may have had demon blood even).

Of course he's referred to as a wizard because only D+D makes a distinction.
In the movie he's actually half-god (don't know about the mystical counterpart i have only read some king arthur based books)

Jack Mann
2006-03-27, 03:05 PM
According to legend, he was half demon.

Thomas
2006-03-27, 03:24 PM
According to legend, he was half demon.

Which legend? ;)

From a Christian PoV, he was sired by a devil. From a Pagan PoV, he was sired by a faerie.

Pretty irrelevant, anyhow. There are equally "truthy" arguments for just about any class or class combination you care to give Merlin. (I'd go with Wizard/Druid/Mystic Theurge, personally.)

Leperflesh
2006-03-27, 03:34 PM
Nah. Merlin is clearly a single-class NPC, and his single-class is "DM's Pet NPC". His role is to railroad the PCs, bail them out when they're in real danger of not fulfilling the DM's predestined plot requirements, and also be uber-powerful to help remind the PCs that, no matter what they do, there's always someone else around to outshine them (but he doesn't just do everything himself, because he's got "restrictions" of some sort, which are never explained fully).

-Lep

Ing
2006-03-27, 04:14 PM
my point on the sorceror is that even if you have an inherient ability, (going with the art metafor, say drawing) you can greatly increase your natural greatness through offical training and instruction from a master . why would a sorceror only gain a few spells at the lowest concievable level. i think that if he cross classes to wizard he should get the same sta bonuses (BAB, saves etc) but learn a few spells as if he studied under the rigors of a wizard. he still prepares as a sorceror but his spell list inflates. then agian i've never been too sure on how many spells a wizard can learn or how they learn them anyway so I might be way off base.

Democratus
2006-03-27, 04:20 PM
Why? Why should study of Wizardry help a sorcerer?

I don't see how studying power armor construction would help Superman.

Sometimes a natural ability is simply just what it is - there's no enhancing it with schooling.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-27, 04:22 PM
not to mention the low-level powerhouse a sorcerer 1/wizard 1 would produce.

AmoDman
2006-03-27, 04:25 PM
On Wizard/Sorcerer - Here's the problem. It's naturally assumed of Wizards that they have some sort of a talent for magic, and thus is the reason they devoted their lives to study of it to better themselves at it. Sorcerers, however, have a natural talent which they progress...by doing jack squat. Sure, they go on the same adventures as Wizards, but it's like they just wake up one morning and accidentally torch a tree and are like "Oh, I guess that was a Fireball. Oops." Anyways, whatever, better flavor text is needed, I think. I actually like the idea of non-studious wizard, I just don't think it comes across well in D&D...

As for monk, there's another thing people are missing. The text specifically says, they do their damage however you describe it. Sure, two monks might be able to have the "same effects," but flavor-wise, they could be doing them in drastically different ways. Maybe your monk uses only his knees to fight and hops around on his hands. By RAW that's just fine. In any case, the rest of the abilities stem from the fact that PC's aren't just your average joe unarmed specialists. These are people who have devoted their lives to enhancing their bodies and, in a world where magic exists, they simply have some amazing effects long-term.

Kaerou
2006-03-27, 04:46 PM
My only real problem with Sorcerer is the fact that they need to verbally cast spells with the same words, rather than just direct the power they have, and the fact that 3.5 didnt even seem to adress the sorcerers at all, when they should have imo, got Enshew matierials.

They are supposed to just suddenly be able to cast spells, yet they need to say the same words as wizards (where did they apparently learn these words? the words are the wizards Science that they learned to gain magic, yet apparently they say the same thing with inborn magic? isnt the talent inborn, not learned? that makes no sense!)

And secondly.. they are supposed to have these spells and magic themselves, but apparently they never used it till they for example, picked up a tiny archery target to cast true strike, or whatever? they would never have any power without collecting a bunch of junk? Again, no sense..! =/

Lastly.. my gripe with Sorcerers is the whole metamagic thing.. full round action? no quickening? Thats stupid! Its supposed to be the Sorcerers that are the ones that shape magic to their will, not wizards! Apparently adding extra words to err.. shape a spell differently takes the same amount of time for a wizard, yet takes the one who is directing inborn talent a whole round.. pffft...

Matthew
2006-03-27, 04:47 PM
Merlin? What movie(s) was he half-God in? There are so many... In the Old French Vulgate Cycle and the later Middle English translation, Merlin is indeed Half-Demon:

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/pmint.htm

As for his 'Pagan' roots, well that's a matter of controversy, but the evidence is sketchy at best.

His more modern incarnations are testimony to his popularity as an archetypical 'advisor' figure.

Sorcerer: if I remember rightly, this class (or something like it) was created in response to / for the Forgotten Realms 'Spell Fire' novel. I didn't think much of the book or the class, but since it was popular it was included as a Base Class in 3.0. Use it or lose it; it makes little difference.

Monk: This class first appeared in the 1.0 Core Rules (I think), was exorcised in the 2.0 Core Rules and gradually made its way back into the system because it was a popular option. It was rehabilitated in 3.0 for exactly that reason. Use it or lose it.

Personally, I don't use either of these classes in my 'home brewed' campaign, but that's one difference amongst many. As far as RAW goes, they are in the tradition of D&D and as well balanced as any other class. 'Whirlwind Joe' was one of the funniest PCs I ever DM'd...

Parallax
2006-03-27, 06:12 PM
Yes 75 ft/second is Correct. I think that type of speed should actually pull your body apart. I mean If you move 3 quarters a foot in a millisecond your body is not going to be in a very good condition.

Putting things in perspective, it works out to a mere 50 miles an hour (80km/hour for the SI-based people.) For a 20th level monk. With the run feat. At full speed. So, OK it's fast, superhuman fast even, but really it's just cheetah-in-top-condition fast, or car-on-a-highway average.

Considering some falcons dive at 4 times this speed, the speed alone is not life-threatening. It's an acceleration of 0 to 50 mph in just 6 seconds, again, nothing horrible there. So relax. Take a look at how much a 5' human fighter with 23STR (at 20th level) can lift, or drag, and you will realize D&D is a game of epic fantasy, not a real-world simulator. So what if monks run faster than any olympic athlete? Wizards make bigger fireballs too, so suck it up. :)

Starbuck_II
2006-03-27, 06:57 PM
On Wizard/Sorcerer - Here's the problem. It's naturally assumed of Wizards that they have some sort of a talent for magic, and thus is the reason they devoted their lives to study of it to better themselves at it. Sorcerers, however, have a natural talent which they progress...by doing jack squat. Sure, they go on the same adventures as Wizards, but it's like they just wake up one morning and accidentally torch a tree and are like "Oh, I guess that was a Fireball. Oops." Anyways, whatever, better flavor text is needed, I think. I actually like the idea of non-studious wizard, I just don't think it comes across well in D&D...

Nah, Fireball needs bat guano and sulfur. Without Eschew Materials (a house rule most people give Sorc tosupport flavor) you can't do that.

What you meant was Scorching Ray.

Sorcerors are just lazy guys that still have to learn everything Wizards do (what materials do they need for spells), but free spell mastery feats every level. ;D

AmoDman
2006-03-27, 07:04 PM
My only real problem with Sorcerer is the fact that they need to verbally cast spells with the same words, rather than just direct the power they have, and the fact that 3.5 didnt even seem to adress the sorcerers at all, when they should have imo, got Enshew matierials.

They are supposed to just suddenly be able to cast spells, yet they need to say the same words as wizards (where did they apparently learn these words? the words are the wizards Science that they learned to gain magic, yet apparently they say the same thing with inborn magic? isnt the talent inborn, not learned? that makes no sense!)

And secondly.. they are supposed to have these spells and magic themselves, but apparently they never used it till they for example, picked up a tiny archery target to cast true strike, or whatever? they would never have any power without collecting a bunch of junk? Again, no sense..! =/

Lastly.. my gripe with Sorcerers is the whole metamagic thing.. full round action? no quickening? Thats stupid! Its supposed to be the Sorcerers that are the ones that shape magic to their will, not wizards! Apparently adding extra words to err.. shape a spell differently takes the same amount of time for a wizard, yet takes the one who is directing inborn talent a whole round.. pffft...

Ummm, while granting Sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat for free at first lvl is a common and, IMO, quite acceptable addition to the class, I (no offense) see no reason for Sorcs to be as powerful and unbalancing as you seem to be thinking they should be. Making them better at metamagic? Unbalances metamagic...nor are they supposed to be this powerful anyway. Not have to have verbal components to their spells? Again, Unbalances the spells, not to mention that I don't see the reasoning why Sorcerers should be this powerful.

If you don't like that they have to say the same words to cast the spell, then don't have them say that. You don't actually know what the verbal component is, just that it's there. Make it whatever you want. IMO I'd say it would be the same words a Wizard would use, though, because the Wizards have researched and perfected all of their spells, whereas the Sorceres have just naturally attained a few (though they both call forth their spells from the realm of arcane magic).

edit: Added a paragraph break.

Devils_Advocate
2006-03-27, 07:23 PM
Um, Starbuck_II, the sorceror does NOT get free Spell Mastery of every spell he knows. Spell Mastery just allows a wizard to prepare a spell without a spellbook. The sorceror gets to cast spells SPONTANEOUSLY, without having to prepare them at all, which is far superior to Spell Mastery.

Blade-Bearer_Ian
2006-03-27, 07:29 PM
I don't mean to sound rude, but you're looking at the monk as if the creators tried to base if off reality. A monk with a speed of 60ft+ makes as much sense as magic. It's fantasy, pure and simple.

feral
2006-03-27, 07:46 PM
I think sorcerer just naturally knows what the components required for the spell are. Perhaps wizards learn those components by copying the sorcerer, and thus the wizard primarily knows spells available to sorcerers. However, there must be a pattern of some sort among the spells, so that by following and building upon that pattern, wizards can create new spells. Of course, casting a spell isn't simply waving your hands and chanting, or anyone could learn a spell by simply watching a mage. The years of intense training is learning to attune yourself to the forces of magic (or proving that you are wothy of learning it,) a secret taught only to wizards, sorcerers are already attuned, and nobody cares why bards can cast spells.

John_D
2006-03-27, 07:56 PM
(Before you hit reply and shoot all manner of holes in my post, bear in mind that this is my own personal view on the relation between sorcery and wizardry. It differs from the official line in a few respects, especially as I see sorcery as more of a state of mind than something you're born to.)


They are supposed to just suddenly be able to cast spells, yet they need to say the same words as wizards (where did they apparently learn these words? the words are the wizards Science that they learned to gain magic, yet apparently they say the same thing with inborn magic? isnt the talent inborn, not learned? that makes no sense!)

And secondly.. they are supposed to have these spells and magic themselves, but apparently they never used it till they for example, picked up a tiny archery target to cast true strike, or whatever? they would never have any power without collecting a bunch of junk? Again, no sense..! =/

I reasoned this to myself by saying that while wizards study specific spells incessantly, eventually figuring out the correct triggers (whether V, S or M) that acrivate that particular spell, sorcerors let their minds wander and touch upon the deeper nature of magic. When they learn a new spell, it's like a moment of revelation: the knowledge is there in the mind, but they have no idea how it got there. They don't know why a certain gesture combined with a certain phrase causes a magic missile to shoot from their fingertips, but it feels right.


Lastly.. my gripe with Sorcerers is the whole metamagic thing.. full round action? no quickening? Thats stupid! Its supposed to be the Sorcerers that are the ones that shape magic to their will, not wizards! Apparently adding extra words to err.. shape a spell differently takes the same amount of time for a wizard, yet takes the one who is directing inborn talent a whole round.. pffft...

As I see it, wizards can adapt spells easier because they have a greater knowledge of specific spells and thus little tweaks to those spells are no big deal. The knowledge that sorcerors have is not earned, so adapting that knowledge is much more difficult for them.

I realise that this does not excuse the official entries any, but hopefully it'll bring a few people's blood pressure down.

edit>> Dang it feral! Why'd I have to go and make a cuppa while writing my post?

Arakune
2006-03-27, 08:01 PM
the first time i saw an sorceress i tough "must be something near than an Dragon Quest (warrior) wizard"

it's strange of how they can't learn new magic other than they know...

pocketwatch
2006-03-27, 08:11 PM
It wasn't a well-thought out class. People are continually tweaking it for the mechanics, but little thought is given to the flavor. The freakiness of it is really downplayed in games. Imagine if your child woke up one morning and could set the dog on fire with the powers of her mind. No warning, no explanation for where these powers came from. It would be like a wandering demon possessed the poor kid, suddenly opening doors in her mind and giving her great power without the responsibility that years of arcane training drill into you.
Sorcerors clearly have some form of unnatural insight into the magical world, possibly caused by bloodlines, possibly by illness or contamination by wild magic. The point is, they are not wizards, but somehow they can comprehend and use magic.
For flavor, you could say that a sorc can't cast a spell without seeing it cast. The sorc picks up instinctively on how the magic is conjured, and can repeat it until too tired to channel magic.
Does that make any sort of sense?

JadedDM
2006-03-27, 08:17 PM
Ever heard of the primal sorcerer class from SAGA's fifth age Dragonlance?

That would probably make more sense. These sorcerers don't 'cast' spells like wizards, so much as they mix and match mana energy and basically custom make their own spells right on the spot.

I imagine incoporating such a thing into D&D would be near mind-numbingly difficult, however. That's probably why when Dragonlance was converted to 3E, they just put the regular sorcerer class in its place.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-27, 09:04 PM
Ever heard of the primal sorcerer class from SAGA's fifth age Dragonlance?

That would probably make more sense. These sorcerers don't 'cast' spells like wizards, so much as they mix and match mana energy and basically custom make their own spells right on the spot.

I imagine incoporating such a thing into D&D would be near mind-numbingly difficult, however. That's probably why when Dragonlance was converted to 3E, they just put the regular sorcerer class in its place.


There have been a few attempts. One that springs to mind is the 'chaos magic' system from Mongoose. Interesting, but way too complex (basically you 'built' each spell loosely the way you might do an epic spell but fresh each time) and very broken in terms of power.

belboz
2006-03-27, 09:14 PM
Ummm, while granting Sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat for free at first lvl is a common and, IMO, quite acceptable addition to the class, I (no offense) see no reason for Sorcs to be as powerful and unbalancing as you seem to be thinking they should be. Making them better at metamagic? Unbalances metamagic...nor are they supposed to be this powerful anyway. Not have to have verbal components to their spells? Again, Unbalances the spells, not to mention that I don't see the reasoning why Sorcerers should be this powerful...if you don't like that they have to say the same words to cast the spell, then don't have them say that. You don't actually know what the verbal component is, just that it's there. Make it whatever you want. IMO I'd say it would be the same words a Wizard would use, though, because the Wizards have researched and perfected all of their spells, whereas the Sorceres have just naturally attained a few (though they both call forth their spells from the realm of arcane magic).

I don't really see the metamagic point either, but I think the idea that sorcerers shouldn't have to make gestures or say words is a *flavor* idea, not a *giving the class more power* idea. It does sound like, if magic is just bubbling through your veins and occasionally popping out, you shouldn't need to say weird words to make it do so.

It *would* unbalance the class, a *lot*, as it stands. But I like the idea from a flavor perspective...so maybe it would be possible to nerf the sorcerer in a few other ways to compensate.

One possible idea, which sounds like a fair bit of fun to me: Remember the old Wild Mages from 2e? (Maybe they exist in 3e, in some place I haven't seen.) Allowing sorcerers to eschew not only materials, but V and S components, but on the other hand requiring them to act like wild mages *without* a wild mage's techniques for controlling wild surges, strikes me as both balanced and nicely flavorful.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-27, 09:26 PM
well in theory the most 'balanced' option for a thematic sorcerer would be something similar to the psionic classes. Of course whether or not psionics are balanced is another debate entirely.

hyenahyena
2006-03-27, 10:22 PM
well, its true. in my games im 'not' including sorcerers. I think they're a good idea thats been realised baddly.

I dont remember who said it, yossarian i think, that taking the idea of magic as a science is faulty. I totally agree with you mister. But that said, a sorcerer with no training and with a natural talent for magic physically casts spells pulled from the same list as a fully trained wizard? They even need the same components?

What? does a kid naturally 'know' you need to say XXXXX and use a peice of dogs hair to do 'X' spell?

That magic works through these strict laws, suggests that yes it IS a science. Also, how can you study something unless it has rules, laws and theories. To say that magic can not be taken as science pretty much undermines the idea that it can be studied. You can't study chaos and get better at it. You can study rules and laws, and understand the further however.

The very word 'arcane' means something learned through study (well thats pretty much what it means).

This is another reason the sorcerer class annoys me, its very existance doesnt justify that magic is a free form of mystic energy, it further entrenches that it 'is' something akin to the laws of physics, with solid guidelines. The sorcerer class proves this by needing the exact same components, gestures and motions as a wizard.


If arcane magic WAS mysterious and NOT a set of laws and guidelines, someone naturally gifted in magical talents would not need to use the same means as a wizard, to cast spells.

Thus the very existance of science as a law is justfied by sorcerer, the very class that seeks to use it as a natural creative energy.

Also, monks are still a poorly concieved class ; )
k thnx!

Ing
2006-03-27, 10:54 PM
i think the sorceror needs its own spell list. give them spells that pretty much don't requir much contorl, just point and aim. so envocation, conjuring, maybe some transmutation and illusion cause it just seems to fit that sorcerors would be illusionists. bar them from using 'controled' spells and give them the metamagic feats to rebalance them. possibly chang esome spells around to make them more 'wiild' example magic missile becomes homming missile, and it can't be aimed at any target, it homes in to the nearest enemy.

hyenahyena
2006-03-27, 11:11 PM
totally ing, i agree with you. I truthfully like the idea of a wild magic missile spell, and indeed wild magic. This needs more thought!

In fact if I 'were' to resdesign sorcerers, id have them choosing spells to be taken as spell like abilities and cut their known-spells down by even more.

If it were truly up to me, id be having sorcerers chosing a spell every few levels, and then letting them cast that spell as a spell like ability which would not count towards their daily spell-slot allotment.

So say at lvl 1 a sorcerer chooses 'acid splash', and thats then taken as a spell like ability. Then at level 4, they choose another spell to be cast once a day without effecting their spell allotment. At lvl 4, they get to cast their 1st level spell like abliity twice a day. At lvl 12, they can cast it 3 times a day, their 2nd twice a day, and this third SLA once a day.

To me, something like that makes sense. Honestly i think ALL sorcerer spells should be spell like abilities, but to do that the class would resemble warlock way too much.

Maybe ill work on that idea though..

Phasm
2006-03-27, 11:40 PM
I reasoned this to myself by saying that while wizards study specific spells incessantly, eventually figuring out the correct triggers (whether V, S or M) that acrivate that particular spell, sorcerors let their minds wander and touch upon the deeper nature of magic. When they learn a new spell, it's like a moment of revelation: the knowledge is there in the mind, but they have no idea how it got there. They don't know why a certain gesture combined with a certain phrase causes a magic missile to shoot from their fingertips, but it feels right.
Yes! How many of you have suddenly had the answer to a complex math problem pop into your head? You have only the vaguest idea of how you got it; somewhere in the back of your brain, something obviously went right. You're sure the answer's correct, and you grumble to yourself all the way through the proof that the teacher requires... because yup, you were right at the beginning. I imagine the acquisition of a sorcerer's spells feels much the same way. "Why does this gesture produce a fireball? Heck if I know. Lets do it again! WHEEEEE! FIRE!"


As I see it, wizards can adapt spells easier because they have a greater knowledge of specific spells and thus little tweaks to those spells are no big deal. The knowledge that sorcerors have is not earned, so adapting that knowledge is much more difficult for them.
Exactly. Wizards know exactly what makes their spells tick. They went meticulously through every step of the problem to get the answer, so if they want to change that answer, it just takes some fiddling while they're preparing the day's spells. Sorcerers are essentially forcing their innate magic to do something different, and this inner 'push' takes longer than casting it normally.

And yes, sorcerers are probably much more irresponsible and dangerous as a group than wizards. I would much rather have a wizard at my back, thank you very much.

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 12:13 AM
I figure the reason wizards have it easier when adapting the spell is that they figure it out beforehand. The sorceror has to figure it out on the spot. They're improvising.

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 12:27 AM
yes improvising whilst using the exact same methods of casting spells as a wizard. They still need the gestures and components.

~~edit
Thats about as much the same as 'improvising' as spontaneously choosing which burger-meal you want from a mcdonalds menu.

If they were improvising, they wouldnt need to follow the exact same guidlines for casting a wizard, spontaneous spellcasting doenst disregard this.
~~no more edit


This is because DnD is a game designed for people as young as 14 or so to play, so letting sorcerers cast the way they do is a good way of streamlining gameplay and avoiding complications.

however ,that doesnt mean i have to accept it or like or use it or do anything except think its silly. bwuaahhaa etc.

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 12:33 AM
What I mean is, the sorceror is figuring out how to make it metamagic right there. The wizard did it when he was preparing his spells, so the work of applying the feat is already done. He applied it some hours ago, while the sorceror was trying to score with the half-elf bard.

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 12:45 AM
im not entirely sure what meta magic has to do with it, knowing how to heighten your spells doesnt stop you from doing it on the spot, its why sorcerers can take metamagic feats.

they just dont get them as a bonus feat.



In the fiction of the sorcerer character, with them having arcane magic (ha ha) as a natural talent, then metamagic is not disregarded. If anything it just means they're concentrating harder ,or trying harder to get an effect. Where a magicials metamagic, in terms of what a wizard does, is making precice modifications to a spell structure to heighten its output, a sorcerer is simply changing the spell with force of will.

That said, i still think they're a stupid class.

(editted twice, once cause i forgot something, twice cause I forgot how to spell)

gnownek
2006-03-28, 01:29 AM
1. In 3.0 Monk extra speed is combat speed only - it didn't use to count for running. Reason is Monk's are trained to fight so instinctively that they are actually running as they fight.

I think monk speed in combat is not supernatural but the effect on running speed is.

2. Perhaps improved unarmed attack damage should always be precision damage only like sneak attack.
But when ki-strike kicks in, it becomes any damage as a supernatural ability. When anti-magic fields kick in, its precision damage again.

3. Monk variety sucks. But what do you expect in a white man game? Only variety is PRC's, Monk Fighter combinations, and Ascetic X or Devoted X feats.

If you get a Monk Belt or the right feats you can take a few levels of another class to get some variety. Monk missilers are cool. Especially with a Ki bow or Shuriken. Stun someone from range. Then rush in and pick up his dropped weapons.

You can also hide and snipe, and be assured of a fast getaway to wear a Tank Fighter down.

There are some nice Monks with Spring Attack and Reach Weapons. Plus Hold The Line. The back-up close range unarmed attacks even if your hands are full are nice.

Plus some awesome Monk Stunning Attack feats.

Try www.crystalkeep.com for a great feat index.

Monk alignment restrictions are stupid BTW, from an Asian viewpoint. Chaotic Monks are called Hermits or Gurus. They teach themselves stuff from manuals or from careful thinking.

gnownek
2006-03-28, 01:30 AM
Weren't sorcerers all Dragon Blooded?

They have instictive magical genes.

captain_decadence
2006-03-28, 01:34 AM
The book says that some sorcerors claim they descend from dragon's. It's kinda up to the player or the DM what they want to say about this. I've always played it that during times of extreme stress (life threatening), some people's minds just...link with magic. That's where sorcerors come from.

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 01:37 AM
Improvising came up because someone mentioned metamagic feats, and how the sorceror has to take a full-round action instead of a standard action. I was pointing out that the sorceror is deciding on the spot to put the metamagic feat on, where the wizard already did it. I don't see it as actually being easier for the wizard, but that he just doesn't have to wait until he actually casts the spell to apply the feat like the sorceror does.

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 01:43 AM
gnownek! im not sure if you're stating the rules or making suggestions. So ill reply assuming you're doing both lol.

1) monk speed is NOT combat only. No where in the manual does it state that : )

2) im not sure what you mean by that! So im going to pretend i never read it.

3) a white mans game? I suspect i expect a degree of thought in it, much like a game from any race or colour.

Would a chaotic hermit have the patience to make himself practice martial arts every day? That seems to require a degree of persistance to regime that verges into lawful, huh?

captain_decadence

Indeed, but as i stated in the very first post, that doesn't actually make sense : )

Yossarian
2006-03-28, 02:17 AM
Also, how can you study something unless it has rules, laws and theories. To say that magic can not be taken as science pretty much undermines the idea that it can be studied. You can't study chaos and get better at it. You can study rules and laws, and understand the further however.


You can study music theory; it has laws and principles and practices. Does this mean that trumpet players are scientists? They all use virtually identical methods and materials to produce their music, after all; a concert trumpet player in an orchestra plays C sharp the exact same way an improvisational jazz prodigy plays C sharp, which suggests that trumpet playing follows rigorous laws just like physics or algebra. Maybe we should call them "trumpetologists" from now on; it sounds more scientific.

There is a science behind magic, just as there is a science behind any other art form. That doesn't mean that the practice of magic itself is a science, even if it is possible to approach its practice from a scientific perspective (as is true of most arts).

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 02:32 AM
replace the word 'science' with 'trained and practiced skill involving in depth knowledge that follows laws and guidelines' and whatever ive said stands true.

Yes, in a lot of respects, a trained trumpet player is very similar to a scientist. They've both devoted their lives to studying something, both have skills from studying and practicing it, and both can do things that someone otherwise untrained has no hope of achieving.

And hey, a lot of music 'does' match up with maths pretty darn well anyhoo.

Ing
2006-03-28, 02:33 AM
and since sorcery is an inherient ability it should be forbiden to cross class to it!

sugested variant sorceror
this sorcerer can be used as a varient or as compleatly redone and just a differing school of magic, much in the way there are diffrent schools of martial arts

1) mana pool. sorcerer take their power inheriently so it drains a natural resevoir of power they have. the MD for sorcerer is 1d10+cha bonus per level. thus a 4th level sorceror would have a 4d4 +con hp and 4d10+cha mp.
2) bonus feat: at first level they gain component substitution, they can improvise and replace a vocal of somatic component of a spell with a vocal or somatic. they cannot replace a physical component, they can replace a vocal with a similar around the same length, or with a somatic. and can replace a somatic with a vocal.

spell list (including mana cost, since its the assumption its a using the mana system, if not disregard this and use the appropriate level)
0
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws. (2)
Acid Splash: Orb deals 1d3 acid damage. (2)
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft (1)
Daze: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action (2)
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks. (1)
Dancing Lights: Creates torches or other lights. (1)
Flare: Dazzles one creature (–1 on attack rolls). (2)
Light: Object shines like a torch. (1 per round lit)
Ray of Frost: Ray deals 1d3+cha cold damage. (3)
Cure Minor Wounds: Cures 1 point of damage. (5)
Ghost Sound: Figment sounds. (1)
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis. (1 per round)
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object. (4)
Message: Whispered conversation at distance. (1 per round)
Open/Close: Opens or closes small or light things (2)
Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks. (1)

1

Shield: Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles (4 per round)
Grease: Makes 10-ft. square or one object slippery. (5)
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you. (5)
Summon Monster I: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. (5 per round summoned)
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll. (7)
Charm Person: Makes one person your friend. (6)
Hypnotism: Fascinates 2d4 HD of creatures. (5)
Sleep: Puts 4 HD of creatures into magical slumber. (5)
Burning Hands: 1d4/level fire damage (max 5d4) (3 per round)
Homming missile: summons 1 missile per every 2 levels that homes in on closest enemy dealing 1d4+1 per level damage. (5)
Shocking grip: graple delivers 1d6/level electricity per round grapled, damage (max 5d6). (2 per round)
Color Spray: Knocks unconscious, blinds, and/or stuns 1d6 weak creatures. (5)
Disguise Self: Changes your appearance. (3)
Silent Image: Creates minor illusion of your design. (7)
Entangle: Plants entangle everyone in 40-ft.-radius. (2 per minute)
Ventriloquism: Throws voice (2 per minute)
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Jump checks. (6)
Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly (6)
Longstrider: Your speed increases by 10 ft. (6)
Magic Stone: Three stones gain +1 on attack rolls, deal 1d6+cha damage. (4)
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance. (4 per round)
cheat: reroll for game of chance (6)
Arcane Sight: Magical auras become visible to you. (7)
summon monster I (2 per round)
2

Resist Energy: Ignores first 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type (6)
Fog Cloud: Fog obscures vision. (7)
Glitterdust: Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures. (6)
Summon Monster II: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. (4 per round)
Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders. (6)
Web: Fills 20-ft.-radius spread with sticky spiderwebs. (6)
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts. (3 per round)
Daze Monster: Living creature of 6 HD or less loses next action. (8)
Hideous Laughter: Subject loses actions (7 per round)
Gust of Wind: Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures (7).
Scorching Ray: Ranged touch attack deals 4d6 fire damage, +1 ray/four levels (max 3). (9)
Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures. (9)
Blur: Attacks miss subject 20% of the time. (4 per round)
Hypnotic Pattern: Fascinates (2d4 + level) HD of creatures (4 per round)
Minor Image: As silent image, plus some sound. (5 per round)
Mirror Image: Creates decoy duplicates of you (1d4 +1 per three levels, max 8). (10)
Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened (9)
Levitate: Subject moves up and down at your direction. (4 per round)
Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or choking smoke. (9)
Animal Messenger: Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place. (8)
Produce Flame: 1d6 damage +1/level, touch or thrown. (9)
Soften Earth and Stone: Turns stone to clay or dirt to sand or mud. (10)
Heat Metal: Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it. (3 per round)
Chill Metal: Cold metal damages those who touch it (10)
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for (4 per round)
Darkbolt*: Deals 1d8 damage/2 levels and stuns 1 round. (10)


3
Flame Blade: Touch attack deals 1d8 +1/two levels damage. (15)
tongue tendrills: tongue becomes 1 tendril per 2 levles (max 5) that grapple. (12)
Evil eye: target takes -4 on attacks saves and checks (15)
Sound Burst: Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them. (12)
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy (15)
Sleet Storm: Hampers vision and movement. (14)
Stinking Cloud: Nauseating vapors, (13 per round)
Summon Monster III: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. (7 per round)
Rage: Subjects gains +2 to Str and Con, +1 on Will saves, –2 to AC. (16)
Fireball: 1d6 damage per level, 20-ft. radius. (18)
Lightning Bolt: Electricity deals 1d6/level damage. (18)
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases. (16)
Blink: You randomly vanish and reappear for 1 round/level. (7 per round)
Slow: One subject/level takes only one action/round, –2 to AC, –2 on attack rolls.
Plant Growth: Grows vegetation, improves crops. (14)
Confusion: Subjects behave oddly for (6 per round)

4
Damning Darkness*: Darkness deals either 2d6 or
1d6 damage per round. (20)
magical speed: gains cha bonusX10 base land speed, +cha AC, and Reflex saves. (adds cha to BAB and gains additional attacks per round) (10 per round)
Sloth: one subject takes a -chaX 10 on base land speed, -your cha mod on ac and reflex saves (subtracts cha from bab and loses additional attacks per round) (10 per round)
Call Lightning: Calls down lightning bolts (3d6 per bolt) from sky. (24)
Stoneskin M: Ignore 10 points of damage per attack. (10 per round)
Charm Monster: Makes monster believe it is your ally. (20)
Crushing Despair: Subjects take –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks (17)
Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
Ice Storm: Hail deals 5d6 damage in cylinder 40 ft. across. (25)
Resilient Sphere: Force globe protects but traps one subject. (24)
Shout: Deafens all within cone and deals 5d6 sonic damage. (27)
Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level. (15 per round)
Wall of Ice: Ice plane creates wall with 15 hp +1/level, or hemisphere can trap creatures inside. (23)
Spike Stones: Creatures in area take 1d8 damage, may be slowed. (22)
Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft per level. away. (20)
Telekinesis: Moves object, attacks creature, or hurls object or creature. (25)

5
Summon Monster V: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. (15 per round)
Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level. (33)
Cone of Cold: 1d6/level cold damage. (30)
Transmute Mud to Rock: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level (30)
Control Winds: Change wind direction and speed. (28)
Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level. (34)
Wall of Thorns: Thorns damage anyone who tries to pass. (27)


6
Pox*: One creature/level takes 1d4 Con drain. (35)
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft. (37) Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but +20 on check. (30)
Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you. (30)
Acid Fog: Fog deals acid damage. (30)
Summon Monster VI: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you (20 per level)
Chain Lightning: 1d6/level damage; 1 secondary bolt/level each deals half damage. (34)
Freezing Sphere: Freezes water or deals cold damage. (30)
Disintegrate: Makes one creature or object vanish. (33)
Move Earth: Digs trenches and build hills. (30)
Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs. (30)
Ironwood: Magic wood is strong as steel. (30)

7

Spell Turning: Reflect 1d4+6 spell levels back at caster. (40)
Summon Monster VII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. (30 for round)
Teleport, Greater: As teleport, but no range limit and no off-target arrival. (40)
Teleport Object: As teleport, but affects a touched object. (35)
Delayed Blast Fireball: 1d6/level fire damage; you can postpone blast for 5 rounds. (40)
Prismatic Spray: Rays hit subjects with variety of effects. (40)
Control Weather: Changes weather in local area (50)
Ethereal Jaunt: You become ethereal for (30 per round)
Reverse Gravity: Objects and creatures fall upward (42)
Fire Storm: Deals 1d6/level fire damage. (44)

8
Prismatic Wall: Wall’s colors have array of effects. (50)
Incendiary Cloud: Cloud deals 4d6 fire damage/round. (50)
Summon Monster VIII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. (40 per round)
Irresistible Dance: Forces subject to dance. (50)
Polar Ray: Ranged touch attack deals 1d6/level cold damage. (50)
Shout, Greater: Devastating yell deals 10d6 sonic damage; stuns creatures, damages objects. (55)
Sunburst: Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage.
(56)
Scintillating Pattern: Twisting colors confuse, stun, or render unconscious. (50)
Earthquake: shakes ground (60)
Whirlwind: Cyclone deals damage and can pick up creatures. (60)

9
Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides. (80)
Summon Monster IX: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. (50 per round)
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger. (80)
Meteor Swarm: Four exploding spheres each deal 6d6 fire damage. (100)
Wail of the Banshee: Kills one creature/level. (110)
Time Stop: You act freely for (90 per round)

just some ideas, probably needs to have the costs juggled around a bit but it gives the sorceror a clearer advantage now. now he can cast spells of a much higher level at lower ranks, but it'd be the only spell he could cast untill his energy recovers (recovers as HP does, with rest), alternativly he could unleash a slew of low powered spells one after the other. making it much more like he's an inherient spell caster.

Tyas
2006-03-28, 02:34 AM
insane monk speed:
Human, 20 monk
magic item: Shadahkar’s Swift Wind
Feats: Run, Dash, Sprinter, Brachiation
Base move is 105', 110' or 115' depending on interpretation of rule for a limited number of rounds per day.
you can run at 5x that (call it 550')
And you can move through dense forest at your normal land speed by swinging from tree to tree.

That's 62.5 mph, or a little more than a mile a minute

Or get some 3.0 boots of strinding and springing that have been houseruled in...

95' or 100', doubled. 1000 feet per round. 113 mph.

JadedDM
2006-03-28, 02:35 AM
If you use music as an analogy, though...

Wouldn't a wizard be someone who studies music, learns songs to play, and then makes up his own songs?

While a sorcerer was someone who just instantly knew songs out of nowhere? Imagine a trumpeter who just somehow instinctively knew how to play "When the Saints Go Marching In", without having ever studied music or even heard it.

That's where sorcerers are odd. Supposedly they are supposed to be the creative ones, those who can tap into magic without study or learning--and yet, they can cast the exact same spells as wizards, using the exact same gestures, words, and components.

Sorcerers would make a lot more sense if they just flung magic around all willy-nilly, sort of like spellfire.

Spuddly
2006-03-28, 02:36 AM
and since sorcery is an inherient ability it should be forbiden to cross class to it!

Well, your sorceror abilities could be latent and it takes a particular event for you to harness them

A 62.5 mph sprint for a character that can also fight dragons? Meh.

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 02:39 AM
ING you're possibly my new hero lol

thats a brilliant take on it, did you just come up with that?
Truly truly impressive. The mana thing is nifty also

JadedDM
yeah, lol, thats one of the reasons i dont like them : )

fusama
2006-03-28, 02:40 AM
I've never liked the longer casting time for metamagic sorcerers have, but its neccessary for balance. Here's a possible alternative I just came up with:

Sorcerers have a difficult time using metamagic since they have to, through force of will, manipulate and shape the magical energy away from the way it naturally wants to be. They can (as normal) take a full round action to cast a metamagic spell, assuming appropriate feats and a spell with 1 standard action casting time. (here's where it gets interesting) They can cast a metamagic spell in the normal time for the spell (including quickend for quicken spell metamagic) if they succeed in a charisma check DC = 10 + the spell's metamagic adjusted level. If the check fails the spell is cast with no metamagic effect but the higher slot is still used, if the check fails by 5 or more the spell fizzles, if the check fails by 10 or more the sorcerer looses control of the spell, basically bad stuff happens...DM's discression. Stuff like spell hits wrong target, different spell cast, roll from wild magic table etc. Of course the sorcerer has the option of taking the orignal, longer time to do it safely.

Yes, it makes them more powerful, options always do, but that may not be a bad thing. I'd also excahange summon familiar with eschew materials since it fits the flavor better IMO.

Spuddly
2006-03-28, 02:43 AM
Ing,
How does a sorceror learn new spells? As a sorceror in the PHB or as a wizard?

When does he get access to the spells? Could a sorceror cast any of those spells, granted he had the mana?

Ing
2006-03-28, 02:46 AM
was toying with the idea for a while because in my current campaign the gov has some nasty military mages that didn't fall into either class. so i came up with a variant sorceror...its hell to type up though. i also had a bunch of other spells i came up with to match them, but only availible if they chose to specialize in an element or school. fire, water, air, earth, metal, wood, sun, moon.

also rewarded them for cross classing to wizard by making them specalized and learning some spells that are normally only avialable to wizards.

feel free to use it and add extra spells as need be.

biggest problem i have is figuring out how they learn spells and what spells they should have per level. can anyone clearly explain how wizards learn it.

gnownek
2006-03-28, 02:50 AM
1. At some point in D&D history monk speed did not affect maximum run speed. Really.

2. But if you wish to stick with the rules, make monk speed Extraordinary replicating fighting while running
but make the high speed run Supernatual

3. My point on unarmed, is that even the feat Improved Unarmed Strike makes your arm into a dagger like object doing 1d4 damage. The realism issue is with that feat as well as the monk ability.

4. One way to justify it, is to make it Unarmed Strike a Supernatural ability but that affects game balance (as monk functionality in anti-magic fields is one of their edges).

5. So you need to give Monk's another way of hurting armored opponents. Say, they get past armor by being Precise like Sneak Attack. If a dart in a sneak attack can do 10d6 damage through armor why can't monks do 1d20.

6. To sum up, Monk attacks are Supernatural but in Anti-magic fields they work against anything for which a sneak attack would work (vulnerable to crits, vital organs in reach).

7. Even in real life, a martial artist can break planks, bricks or ice blocks (although not a moving target).
I presume a Monk's unarmed attack against a Fighter would be like a kick to the back of the knee where its just chain mail. Or a punch into the armpit/side of body. inside of the elbow, eyes or throat. You can never armor joint too much, so joints can always bend back.

8. According to the site below, ju-jitsu was designed to fight armored opponents. I guess that makes sense. Try to knock them down then go for the throat or a gap or a joint in the armor.

http://www.justkarate.co.uk/pedia-jujutsu.html

'During this period both weapon and weaponless fighting arts evolved and jujutsu became the close-fighting system used by the samurai against armoured opponents'.

9. Lastly, you can make Monks use Gauntlets too.

Ing
2006-03-28, 02:50 AM
best i figured so far is that a sorcerer learns 1d4 +cha mod spells per level, maxed at first level. they can learn just about any spell, but whether they'd be able to cast it is in question. in theory you could have a sorceror who has all 9 level spells but is unable to conceivably use any of them until level 8. so there's some hope that the player is not that stupid and invests into early spells well. since the strength comes form using lower levels spells more often, it'd probably be best to invest maybe 90% of your spells at level up on those of a lower level that you can allready cast and the rest on new higher ups.


(P.S.: notice the Speed and Sloth spells, done to fix how odd/sucky haste and slow are?)

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 03:00 AM
ing, ive no darn idea how wizards/sorcerers learn new spells. The more i think about the concept of arcane spellcasting the more my head aches.

gnownek

I've redesigned monks and added in features simila to what you've listed, but ive added them in as spesific martial arts styles. Ill post them at a later date after ive tested them more, maybe : )

Ing
2006-03-28, 03:04 AM
i think the die +mod for my sorcerers at least makes the most sense, its a good simplification for a other wise complex class. sorcerers in the PM is easy, wizards are more foggy since they write ti donw in books...i guess in theroy they know all the spells in the PM? bah,

Ing
2006-03-28, 03:44 AM
On the monks, personally i made the same mistake confusing them for real...uh monks instead of the martial arts bullet proof monk. in my first campaign i kept asking why the monk couldn't heal us like the cleric, or at least bless us. personally i think the current Monk should be renamed, the CHuck Noris or Martial Artist, and there should be an additional, exorcist type monk as well

sign to go with the success of the sorcerer, i present. Western monk
level Bab F R W
1st +0 +0 +1 +2 prayer
2nd +1 +1 +2 +3 bless water
3rd +2 +1 +2 +3 purify food and drink
4th +3 +2 +3 +4 bless
5th +4 +2 +3 +4 last rites
6th +5 +3 +4 +5 hallow
7th +6/1 +3 +4 +5 transfer wounds
8th +6/1 +4 +5 +6 exorcise
9th +7/1 +4 +5 +6 take curse
10th +7/+2 +5 +6 +7 take disease
11th +8/2 +5 +6 +7 repulsion/sypmathy
12th +8/3 +6 +7 +8 take suffering
13th +9/3 +6 +7 +8 remove disease
14th +9/4 +7 +8 +9 fast healing 1
15th 10/4 +7 +8 +9 align weapon
16th 10/5 +8 +9 +10 stigmata
17th +10/6/1 +8 +9 +10 fast healing 2
18th +11/7/2 +8 +10 +11 mirircle.
19th +11/7/3 +9 +10 +11 commune with diety
20th +12/8/4/+9 +11 +12 uncoruptable

prayer: while praying gives a morale bonus equal to 1 per 3 levelvers (max =chasima bonus) to attacks, checks and ac.

bless water: as a free action can make water holy water

purify food and drink: as spell # of times per day =cha mod

bless: target gets charisma bonus to defense and saves, alternativly gives an weapon or item a bonus of 1 per every 4 levels (lasts # of days =1d4+ char mod), can cast char mod per week.

hallow: designates an area as holly, # of times per day = cha

transfer wounds: the monk can take the pain of others on to themselves. can take an amount of damage = to charisma X monk level from an ally and place the damage onto themselves

last rites: revokes an evil alignment or guilt of deed from a willing earnestly repenting dieing person (insures their soul goes to a good aligned plane)

take disease: a monk can take the disease form an alliy on to himself, including supernatural diseases such as lycantrophy.

exorcise: monk can deal a bonus of cha X monk damage per day to evil outsiders, outsiders possesing another vessel must make a will save or be banished for 1d4 years.

take curse: a monk can take the negative spell effects or effects of a spell onto himself.

repulsion/sympathy: a monk can make a previously sanctified area attract or repell types of creatures

remove disease: as spell, once per week= charisma modifier

take suffering: a monk can take the permanent or temporary ability damage onto themselves.

align weapon: a monk can bless an item so that it deals half damage to one alignment and double to its opposing. cha mod per week. blessed weapons and items permanently retian their bonus (does not stack with other abilities or with further blessing)

stigmata: monk becomes finly intuned to his diety, generates blood from wounds on his hands that heals 2d6 damage. the healing can only be used on one person once per day.

miricle: once per 1d4 weeks the monk can pray to his diety to request a favor

commune with diety: monk can discuise freely with diety directly.

uncoruptable: monks's body becomes pure, no longer takes ability damage or suffer form poison. when he dies his body has the effect of gentle repose, allowing for easy resurection at any time.

hd: 1d6

skills: knowledge religion, concentrate, diplomacy, heal.

best i could come up with with such short notice.

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 03:57 AM
thats definately an interesting take on the monk class, seems pretty damn balanced to me from what i can tell, and definately has lots more in tie to traditional 'monks' then the current base monk class.

the take suffering is a bit harsh, i cant imagine seeing 'too' many players willingingly taking permenant negatives like that, but if its -4 strength to you, or -4 to the fighter, i guess a monk of this build needs it less : )

stigmata is worrying. bleeding on someone to heal them, heh. thats devotion for you.

Ing
2006-03-28, 04:04 AM
finally all that catholic school came in handy

based kinda on st. Francis and others,

While the Paladin's dish it out the Monks take it.

perhaps i should decrease there BAB and increase their hit die?

faeline
2006-03-28, 06:33 AM
Hi, I've been reading through the discussion over how sorcerers seems rather wrong in the D&D world. I myself have been playing spontaneous casters mainly (bards and sorcerers). I like being a spontaneous caster, as opposed to many other party members of mine, who prefer those that prepare their spells for the day.

I do agree that sorcerers should take their spell lists from another pool as opposed to wizards. Whenever I create sorcerers, I ensure that my character has some reason to have spontaneous capability (celestial/dragon/horribly magic disaster). I find it quite weird that spells are researched by some other wizards could be *viola* learnt by a sorcerer just like that. Sorcerers should have a specific pool of spells they can gain, according to their backgrounds, like dragon blood = tonnes of fire/lightning/ice/etc depending on the ancestry; celestial blood = good spells, etc.

However, I must disagree that sorcerers are stronger/weaker than wizards, because the speciality is quite different. In my campaign, I don't see how a party can survive without our primary wizard, who has knock, spider climb, etc - all the utility spells that are just as important as a fireball. I mainly support in the damage arena, and I'm also useful as a member of the party when it comes to running away (8 d-doors a day ^^). Between me and my wizard friend, we divide quite clearly that I should deal more of damage, whereas he can do funky stuff like ray of clumsiness and grease.

Wizards = flexibility in having more spells known, able to prepare as per situation (underground/forested/city)
Sorcerers = flexibility in able to cast spells known any amount of times, but I can't change as per situation.

My game master controls the whole thing by requiring ample roleplaying and background to justify every single class I took for my character. I had dragon ancestory (and I took tonnes of evocation spells to show); I hated necromancy as a character (no necro spells); I had someone to teach me how to control my spells after my mother saw me fire magic missiles at that bully by the street (spontaneous magic triggered by anger and rage); adventured to gain more experiences in life and harness more of my talent.

A lot of the loose ends provided by -arrrrrr- Wizards are resolved by game masters thinking of ways to go around it, by adding restrictions (feats, background, roleplay)

As a sorceress-player, I sometimes end up being only able to save people via d-door and nothing else. My wizard friend could cast wall of force/grease/etc to delay pursuit. Personally, I don't think a sorcerer can do as the primary caster of the party.

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 08:40 AM
I totally agree with you faeline. Spontaneous spellcasting is 'awesome'.

The prospect that one simply 'forgets' spells after casting them is at best aughable, and at worst simply stupid. I just don't care what excuse the manuals give, the notion of someone sitting down and memorising '3 casts of fireball, 2 casts of another spell and 5 casts of yet another spell' seems rediculously and needlessly complicated.

since when can you memorise something 3 times? ugh.

The 'recharge' method of spellcasting makes at least 3 kinds of sense.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm

Much love for this system : )

gnownek
2006-03-28, 10:36 AM
Comes of the Vancian system where spells are prepared in the beginning of the day then triggered.

Instead of memorizing, imagine they are preparing components.

I need two fireballs today so I need two
freshly mixed ball of sulphur/guano.

I need a power word kill so I'll draw an arcane symbol in blood on my palm for triggering by command word...

Malachite
2006-03-28, 12:44 PM
I suppose the wording does say animals, but the Horseshoes of the Zephyr only say horses - does this mean no other hooved animal can use them? I'd argue that you could go with the spirit of the law rather than the word of the law and assume it said that because most hooved creatures are animals and the centaur is the only PC who could wear them (Then again I test as Chaotic Good, so I screw the law anyway ;)).
If you take it to mean literally only creatures with the animal subtype, does that mean that awakened horses (which become magical), pegasi and unicorns couldn't wear them? Especially since the only thing changed about the horse is greater intelligence, and the pegasus having wings (some fluffs give unicorns cloven hooves).
Lastly, it kind of penalises centaurs even more if they can't wear horseshoes, and noone's going to let them wear boots.

And even without the horseshoes, you have to admit that 750ft/round is pretty insane... ;D

Malachite
2006-03-28, 12:51 PM
I just worked out: 900ft/6 second round is approximately 112.5mph (180kmph) and 750ft/round is about 93.75mph (150kmph).

It doesn't make that much difference either way really, it's still insanely fast. I can just imagine a centaur monk overtaking me on the motorway...

Mal

prometheusx
2006-03-28, 02:21 PM
The Horseshoes of the Zephyr can only be used by a Horse, if they say they can only be used by a Horse (or if they say they can be used by a Horse, and don't say they can be used by anything else.).

While this interpretation is reasonable, horse is not capitalized in the DMG. I.e., an alternative totally reasonable interpretation is that horse simply means "that creature to which the item is affixed in a way that horseshoes are normally affixed." This interpretation would allow the horseshoes to be affixed to anything with an uncloven hoof, be it pony or pegasus. For six grand, that's definitely how I would rule it at my table.

Devils_Advocate
2006-03-28, 02:54 PM
biggest problem i have is figuring out how they learn spells and what spells they should have per level. can anyone clearly explain how wizards learn it.
From the SRD:


A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.

Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook

Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.

Spells Gained at a New Level
Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.

Independent Research
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.
(Huh, I never noticed before that half of a specialist wizard's free spells have to come from the specialist school. You learn something new every day.)



5. So you need to give Monk's another way of hurting armored opponents. Say, they get past armor by being Precise like Sneak Attack. If a dart in a sneak attack can do 10d6 damage through armor why can't monks do 1d20.
What do you mean by that? I thought that sneak attacks had to hit an opponent's AC like any other sort of attack, and a monk's unarmed strike could be used against an armored opponent.

Kaerou
2006-03-28, 04:53 PM
Anyone saying that centaurs, pegasi and unicorns cant wear horseshoes is taking the wording way way too far. Use some common sense, the game designers expected people to use it. I suppose NPC's cant use weapons and armor because the book says that they are worn and used by characters, next.

Ing
2006-03-28, 05:16 PM
how arguing over a capatilized letter....
"old billy was right, let's kill all the lawyers and kill em tonight"

You forget the most important rule though DM is God. if they say so the shoes can be worn by halflings (though i imagin the fitting process would give them damage that would actually reduce their land speed) or even work by nailing them to the skull of a whale.

Kaerou
2006-03-28, 05:38 PM
No, Mad. Those are all spells you are mentioning, this is an item that simply makes hooved beings run faster, its really not so comparable. As for the character, its in the equipment section, not the specific weapon descriptions.

In fact, ive just been looking at some of my official books, and they even list some centaur NPC's as wearing horseshoes of speed. For example, Champions of Valor, page 146-147, character - Dalthyria.

Murky_Pool
2006-03-28, 05:39 PM
Sorcerer is never going to make any sense really. It's what you get when you crack and give in to the whiners demands

"My mage has LOADS of spells but I have to think about which ones I want to prepare. Take the hard thinking part away and leave me the huge damage abilities"

Voila - mage with reduced spells but no thought required except at each level up.

AD&D changes to 3.0

(personal opinion of course, but that doesn't make it wrong, or even unlikely. The stupidest business decisions come from the higher management and they have kids)

EDIT - Idiot typing error

Aranth
2006-03-28, 06:13 PM
Hm, I always thought of wizards vs. sorcerors like this:

Wizards study how the universe works. They know natural forces, and can learn spells that twist those forces to change things. Intelligence is their primary stat, as more intelligence means being able to understand more complicated rules for the underpinnings of reality.

Sorcerors have an intuition about where the universe is ticklish. They know a couple tricks, how to poke it and make it do what they want, in a few limited ways (thus, fewer spells). Charisma is their primary stat, as the more confident they are, the better their intuition works; or perhaps the more charisma, the more they are able to convince natural forces to do what they want. Imposing their will on the universe, and convincing it that their way is the right way. They don't know what they're doing like a wizard does.

Something like that, anyway...

hyenahyena
2006-03-28, 06:26 PM
MaddMattG!

huh, centaurs can so wear shoes of the zephyr. They said horse because horses tend to be the only hoofted animal that people tend to ride.

does this mean that ponies/warponies cant wear it either? what about species of horse? clydsdales?

according to your strict take on words, a War-horse wouldnt be able to wear it, because its not a horse.
its a warhorse.

It's 'really' up to the dm's disgression. Hell Ii know my dm has fed us an npc minotaur with bloody, those damn shoes. That was at least 12 flavors of scary.


If a warlock can take WEAPON FOCUS in eldrich blast, then i think a centaur can use the shoes. Srsly.

Zeful
2006-03-28, 06:50 PM
There are a few things that I would like to point out that I have problems with.

Number 1.)
... Sorcerors are just lazy guys that still have to learn everything Wizards do (what materials do they need for spells)...
Not true, the first wizard would have had to have learned everything from the sorcerer otherwise there would be no wizards. My reasoning: Magic (if it existed) is an invisible, intangible force (unless your in the forgotten realms but that's another disscussion) that would have only been manipulated by those with the inherent ability to feel it. Then subsequently manipulate it. The crime (and yes there would have been crime. Any amout of the population that can shrug off any attempt to restrain them are going to cause problems.) caused by this rash imbalance of power would have caused some people with the intillectual capibilities to understand magic to study it and subsequently manipulate it. The intillecuals could have only used what the criminals threw at them for what they could do. After a while they would understand the science behind the magic and be able to make there own spells that the inherant casters could mimic after seeing used. This cycle would continue as both groups gained power, explaining why wizards and sorcerers have the same spell lists. As well as my origninal point.

Number 2.)
Weren't sorcerers all Dragon Blooded?
Some sorcerers claim blood of dragons but you can't prove it either way.

Number 3.) Some one mentioned about how sorcerers bloodlines have any bearing on there spells (I can't remember who). But it says in the phb that it can pop up in any of the races, but never once gives a reason which means there is no one unifying reason why the cast their spells. I'm playing a sorcerer here on the boards that woke up one day and iced his half-sister. He has no draconic heritage or any of the mediocraty. He just casts spells.

EDIT:And a way to fix the sorcerer material focus issue is that sorcerers must create some kind item that is bound to him/her and their magic, this would replace other foci (material or otherwise) but give them something important they can lose. It would be much like a wizards spell book

cogross
2006-03-28, 07:01 PM
5. So you need to give Monk's another way of hurting armored opponents. Say, they get past armor by being Precise like Sneak Attack. If a dart in a sneak attack can do 10d6 damage through armor why can't monks do 1d20.

1d20? Unarmed damage goes up every few levels for monks. And if your DM is nice, they'll let you take the Improved Natural Attack feat from the MM. My monk's base damage is 3d8+str. If I can get enlarge person cast on me, then its 4d8+str.



9. Lastly, you can make Monks use Gauntlets too.

Not worth it. For higher levels, the unarmed attack does more damage. ;D

Ing
2006-03-28, 07:54 PM
No, it's taking it as intended.

You can't reduce/enlarge person a Centaur because he's a Monstrous Humanoid.

You can't cast spells that only affect Animals on a Centaur because he's a Monstrous Humanoid.

If you wanted to allow all those "Animal" effects to affect a Centaur, then you'd have to lower your Intelligence to 1 or 2 (or can it be 3?), surrender your free will, and be subject to ALL spells that affect Animals.

If you want to do that, you could, but you'd end up getting hosed in every way. You can't just pick which spells/items should ignore the creature type, and which do.

And no weapon description I've ever seen says it's for a Character (or character).


under your strict rules all of the PM only effects female characters since they always use the , She, hers, Her pronouns.

Leperflesh
2006-03-28, 08:20 PM
under your strict rules all of the PM only effects female characters since they always use the , She, hers, Her pronouns.

That's just silly.

Look, don't blame Madd. Blame whoever made the Centaur, and didn't make it also have the Animal type... or blame the makers of the magic items, who didn't consider the Centaur.

If you'd like to argue that a rule is poorly drafted, or inappropriate to the game, or was a mistake in some way, argue that. I think you'll find nobody is disagreeing with you. But you can hardly take issue with someone for simply pointing out what the rules actually say, can you?

And as an aside: NPC stands for Non Player Character. Clearly any rule that applies to "characters" must perforce, apply to NPCs as well.

-Lep

gnownek
2006-03-29, 02:01 AM
on Mar 28th, 2006, 1:50am, gnownek wrote:5. So you need to give Monk's another way of hurting armored opponents. Say, they get past armor by being Precise like Sneak Attack. If a dart in a sneak attack can do 10d6 damage through armor why can't monks do 1d20.


What do you mean by that? I thought that sneak attacks had to hit an opponent's AC like any other sort of attack, and a monk's unarmed strike could be used against an armored opponent.


--------------

This was in a discussion on realism.

Kaerou
2006-03-29, 08:27 AM
Sorry, didnt mean to come across as blaming mad =)

Hopeless
2007-01-06, 06:11 PM
I heard that when it was first devised the sorceror class originally had a d6 for Hit Dice and could select spells from both Wizard and Cleric lists thereby allowing them to learn any spell they needed since it would be largely experience that would indicate what spells they developed.
It was then downgraded to d4 and restricted to wizards spell list only as this apparently mde them think it was to powerful (though with the advent of the Favoured Soul perhaps there was another reason...).

Personally after reading a few threads over at EN World (I am allowed to say that am I?) I decided to restore their HD to d6 and added 3 bonus class skills basically Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate since they are based on Charisma something a sorceror is supposed to be good at.

Since then having run two sorceror characters the first a multi-class cleric of Helm/Sorceror who gained his arcane casting abilities after being aged 60 years by the ghost of a black dragon whom the DM decided was now corrupted apparently the church of Helm doesn't have arcane spellcasting followers... well mybe not sorcerors...
The second was a halfling sorceror who ended up being the only arcane spellcaster in the group (which included a fanatical paladin, a cleric of the traveller, a half orc druid...) and I was told my character needed to buy scroll spells to learn new spells and that was after designing the character with the view of multiclassing the only player to openly state that intent and found it was now easy to multiclass but being limited in spell choice because the dm believed Wizards were the sole source of arcane magic it left me a little bitter.

Since then I believe I was wrong about the class skills since they should be chosen to fit the character rather than 3 specific Charisma based skills and whilst I do think they've made Wizards far too powerful for beginning characters it does feel like the class wasn't properly thought out.

Take care!

I_Got_This_Name
2007-01-06, 08:20 PM
If you want to defend sorcs using the wizard spell list, wizardry was invented by the smart people who weren't sorcerers, but copied them and figured out how they worked.

If you want to change it, replace the Sorcerer with the Generic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) with a good will save and sorcerer class skills, plus all knowledges and any one other. Possibly give them better weapon proficiencies (I'd consider 3 simple weapons, so that they can have the Dagger, Crossbow, and their choice of Quarterstaff or Spear, or give them all simple weapons back). They aren't meant to mix, but actually the Generic Caster is, IMO, pretty decently balanced with the normal classes, so you shouldn't cause too much harm and shouldn't be too underpowered (besides, even if it's weaker than a normal sorcerer, it's still a caster, and therefore better than the rest of the group) if integrated in.

Bouldering Jove
2007-01-06, 08:57 PM
Where in the world did this impression come from that the knowledge to cast a new spell just suddenly pops into a sorceror's head?

"Sorcerors create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice."
"The typical sorceror adventures in order to improve his abilities. Only by testing his limits can he surpass them. A sorceror's power is inborn - part of his soul. Developing this power is a quest in itself for many sorcerors, regardless of how they wish to use their power."
"Eventually, the young sorceror understands the power that he has been wielding unintentionally. From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his powers."

The sorceror clearly has a natural intuition and awareness of magical power, like a musician playing by ear, but the reason they improve with experience points is because they're putting their intuition into practice, testing it, and getting a feel for how to work more complicated magic. Their characteristics description does say "Sorcerors cast spells through innate power rather than through careful training and study," but in the context of the full sorceror fluff, that seems to be a remark on their lack of formal, rigorous study and experimentation in the vein of a science.

In short: sorcerors don't just know magic. They're sensitive enough to it to use it unconsciously when they're young, but to actually improve it and make it useful, they have to become aware of it and develop it through practice and experience. Sorcerors work for their knowledge.

Athenodorus
2007-01-06, 09:19 PM
I just dropped the Sorcerer class entirely. If someone has Dragon Blood (tm) and innate magical powers, I tend to think of it as a template or race, not a class per se.

JellyPooga
2007-01-07, 12:01 AM
not read all the replies to this thread, but I have two things to say.

1) Monks - as far as stuff in dnd goes, they are just silly. A Barbarian/Fighter that tries to specialise in unarmed combat can't even hope to compare to a monk doing the same. Something there deosn't quite fit. As the OP says, where does all the weirdness come from? "I do martial arts so I'm immune to poison and disease..."...wtf? And having good base saves..o.k. I can see Will and Reflex, but Fortitude? where's that come from? I'll stop ranting now, otherwise I'll be here for ages.

2) Sorcerers - For me, they make more sense than Wizards. Wizards learn magic, memorize spells and forget them when they cast them...umm..what? At least sorcerers know all their spells all the time..they're just limited by their power (i.e. certain number of castings per day). If anything else, it's Wizards that are a copy of Sorcerers, not the other way round.

That's my drunken 2p anyway.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-07, 12:48 AM
1) Monks - as far as stuff in dnd goes, they are just silly. A Barbarian/Fighter that tries to specialise in unarmed combat can't even hope to compare to a monk doing the same. Something there deosn't quite fit. As the OP says, where does all the weirdness come from? "I do martial arts so I'm immune to poison and disease..."...wtf?

Because, as others have pointed out, that's not the point of the class. Monks are fantasy characters, who've mastered a mystical, magical discipline that makes them fast and immune to poison. They're not "martial artists" they're "fantasy ki masters." They won't resemble the real world. Period. They're not logical. A wizard did it.

And speaking of wizards and sorcerers... I agree with some of the above posters, I generally assume sorcerers have trained to use their power, it's just a different form of training and discipline than wizards, as they're learning to unleash something within themselves, rather than wizards who try to unlock and access the ambient magical energies around them.

That said, when I build sorcerers, I like to build them thematically, make them specialized, as it seems to make sense... if they were core, I'd probably stick to wild mages/elemental mages instead... sorcerers who can mostly cast fire spells, or summoning spells, etc. I think Sorcerers *should* be allowed to be Specialists, in fact--it makes a lot of sense.

And honestly, in the end? The reason why both Sorcerers and Wizards exist is because some folks preferred to play spellcasters who didn't have to prepare spells, but some others like the balance between having to prepare spells but being unlimited in the number of spells you could know. It's really more to suit playing styles than anything else. If you need to explain it, in-game, there are certainly ways to do it as expressed by a number of posters before me.

And if you are trying too hard to think about "making sense" and Dungeons and Dragons, you should probably switch to another game. I play D&D because it's fun and I can do a lot with it; if I want to "make sense" I'll avoid it entirely, however. :smallsmile:

AmoDman
2007-01-07, 12:49 AM
Wow, somwone drudged up an old thread...cross-classed into necro-poster, I presume?

Matthew
2007-01-07, 06:41 AM
A wizard did it.

No, no, the Wizards did it.

Tola
2007-01-07, 10:58 AM
Random thought: In terms of 'fluff' Sorceror and Warlock are exactly alike.(Wild magic from 'natural talent'. Indeed, one could say the 'Warlock' is more like the sorceror, than the sorceror.) One is seen as slightly underpowered, the other is seen as VERY underpowered.

MrNexx
2007-01-07, 02:30 PM
Random thought: In terms of 'fluff' Sorceror and Warlock are exactly alike.(Wild magic from 'natural talent'. Indeed, one could say the 'Warlock' is more like the sorceror, than the sorceror.) One is seen as slightly underpowered, the other is seen as VERY underpowered.

I have observed this, as well.

clockwork warrior
2007-01-07, 07:50 PM
2) Sorcerers - For me, they make more sense than Wizards. Wizards learn magic, memorize spells and forget them when they cast them...umm..what?
That's my drunken 2p anyway.uh, no.

that is a common misconception of wizards, that they just read a spell, and forget it and thats that. anyone who reads the wizard description learns that it is more complicated than that. wizards start as a normal person with an above average intelligence who learns to cast spells. opportunity for them, they don't have the natural magic in there blood to hold arcane energy, so instead what they do is copy formulas and what not into books showing them how to manually cast spells. what happens during the time that they prepare is spells is that they are actually casting the spells, but not completing them, and instead just keeping the incomplete spells held inside them with a trigger to release them.

a wizards mind is similar to a scroll, they hold spells there until they are ready to be cast.

sorcerers work the same way, but they have magic naturally coursing through them. without any formal training, they just take that raw energy and shape it the best they can, and use it as much as there bodies will allow.

the warlock is much different compared to a sorcerer, where a sorcerers blood carries the basics of magic, a warlock has a direct connection to the unnatural, generally a demonic force presiding within there souls giving them unlimited arcane power, but very little control over what form it takes.

one thing that people always forget about dnd is that they dont have a players handbook to tell them how magic works, they only have a basic understanding of it. it is a force that literally changes reality through mystic forces. know one in the games understands magic 100%, otherwise even commoners would be flinging about cantrips all day. magic represents a force of will and unnatural knowledge of the unknown forced into being through strange gestures and eldric words, or divine forces and strong faith

that is the clockwork warriors explanation on magic in dnd.