Mass Effect 1: Adventure through the Relayweb [Archive]

Landis963

2011-12-21, 09:35 PM

I just played and finished Mass Effect, the Original.

I think I'm in love with this setting :elan:

I want to know. Beside "putting humanity on the top of the food chain", was there a point that changed letting the council dying or not?

I played a superparagon all game long, but at the end, I said "Focus to destroy Sovereign". Which doomed them. Would Sovereign have escaped otherwise?

Did I killed these people for no reason?

Bluntly, Yes, Sovereign would not have escaped, the only difference is whether you kill possibly several major Citadel players (and the council) along with a ton of civilians of all Citadel races or whether you sacrifice a bunch of Alliance soldiers in order to save the council. However, for all the council's uselessness to your cause, several other factors change with their survival. Among them, that paparazzi who ambushes you in the Citadel, early-to mid-game depending on whether you return to the Citadel between story missions, returns and has a different leading question calling you out for the sacrifice of whatever you chose (you can call her out too, or just punch her again), a turian weapons/safari vacation vendor likes you a lot better than if you sacrificed them, several incidental lines (automated news reels, some conversations, etc.) change based on the presence of the Destiny Ascension, etc.

Sorry, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Also, why isn't this in the main Mass Effect thread? I know it's listed as Mass Effect 3, but it serves the same purpose.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-22, 09:29 AM

Because I saw a Mass Effect 2 thread and a Mass Effect 3 thread in the 3 top pages of this board, so how am I to know it's supposed to be the "Main ME thread"?

Oh well. I didn't kill these people because I wanted them dead. It's just that I genuinely thought Sovereign was THE priority target, by any metric you can think off. The Council can be replaced, but we can only lose once against Sovereign. Killing him was a THE priority, I'd have sacrificed the entire Alliance fleet to achieve that goal.

ok. Beside this little dilemma (which I don't believe was made out of my Paragon character), the game was brilliant. Now Bioware has fully created 2 of my favourite settings: Dragon Age and Massverse.

The Salarians were cool. Even without a Companion NPC of their kind, the Captain "we hold the line" was pure concentrated awesome heroic stuff.

Krogans were a great danger, menacing guys... With just a perfect counterpoint POV in Wrex, who was both badass, sure of himself... And deeply melancholic. Makes you almost feel sorry for this specie of genocidal warriors.

Quarians were such a rich and developed Colonial offshot. I know I'll see them more in ME2, can't wait!!

Turians were menacing and crafty. Really loved reading about their culture, but I so don't want to cross these guys. Kind of a nice "proud warrior race" who are much, much complex.

Asari... I am not sure about these. Fanservice specie, on initial instinct. I guess they are supposed to be threatening with their powerful biotics. They seem to fill the diplomatic niche the Humans have in Star Trek's federation. They are the diplomats, the community builders. They can get along with everybody, they live long.... Damn it, THEY ARE ELVES

Geths were meh. Interesting antagonists, not ennough delved in their AI nature beyond "specie of antagonist robots". I gathered we learn more about them in ME2.

The Reapers... Damn are they terrifying. This is the kind of Cthulu-like superpowered beings that fit well a Sci-Fi setting. This kind of powerscale is what the Borg should have been. I hope they dont end up with a hundred of sub-agents that "keep their plans going" like the Shadows did. A few of these agents, fine. But any more? Meh.

Rachni. Damn it, why was I forced to male a decision of that scale on my own?!? Bugs are always good to have.

Thorian was terrifying.. I hope we learn more about him and his link to the Reapers.

Xondoure

2011-12-22, 12:00 PM

The best ME2 companion is a Salarian (subjectively of course.) And you learn much much more about the Geth.

As for the fight against Sovereign… I opted to save the council because in my mind the Destiny Ascension had a very big gun and I wanted that gun turned against Sovereign.

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-22, 12:06 PM

As for the fight against Sovereign… I opted to save the council because in my mind the Destiny Ascension had a very big gun and I wanted that gun turned against Sovereign.
For my Paragon run, my decision-making was as follows:

"I'm Commander Shepherd. I just talked my arch-nemesis to death and (almost) never have to sacrifice what I want for what is right. Sure, protect the Council -- I'm sure that we can take care of Sovereign somehow."

By ME2, it is canon that Commander Shepherd is the most bad-ass individual in the Universe. I was just ahead of the curve :smallamused:

Landis963

2011-12-22, 12:16 PM

Because I saw a Mass Effect 2 thread and a Mass Effect 3 thread in the 3 top pages of this board, so how am I to know it's supposed to be the "Main ME thread"?

That's a good point. :smallredface: Sorry if I came off too hard.

Oh well. I didn't kill these people because I wanted them dead. It's just that I genuinely thought Sovereign was THE priority target, by any metric you can think off. The Council can be replaced, but we can only lose once against Sovereign. Killing him was a THE priority, I'd have sacrificed the entire Alliance fleet to achieve that goal.

Funnily enough, my Shepard saved them because he know of the great personal debt they would owe him. He gambled that he, personally, would survive with greater power, and won.

ok. Beside this little dilemma (which I don't believe was made out of my Paragon character), the game was brilliant. Now Bioware has fully created 2 of my favourite settings: Dragon Age and Massverse.

The Salarians were cool. Even without a Companion NPC of their kind, the Captain "we hold the line" was pure concentrated awesome heroic stuff.

Krogans were a great danger, menacing guys... With just a perfect counterpoint POV in Wrex, who was both badass, sure of himself... And deeply melancholic. Makes you almost feel sorry for this specie of genocidal warriors.

Quarians were such a rich and developed Colonial offshot. I know I'll see them more in ME2, can't wait!!

Turians were menacing and crafty. Really loved reading about their culture, but I so don't want to cross these guys. Kind of a nice "proud warrior race" who are much, much complex.

Asari... I am not sure about these. Fanservice specie, on initial instinct. I guess they are supposed to be threatening with their powerful biotics. They seem to fill the diplomatic niche the Humans have in Star Trek's federation. They are the diplomats, the community builders. They can get along with everybody, they live long.... Damn it, THEY ARE ELVES

Geths were meh. Interesting antagonists, not ennough delved in their AI nature beyond "specie of antagonist robots". I gathered we learn more about them in ME2.

The Reapers... Damn are they terrifying. This is the kind of Cthulu-like superpowered beings that fit well a Sci-Fi setting. This kind of powerscale is what the Borg should have been. I hope they dont end up with a hundred of sub-agents that "keep their plans going" like the Shadows did. A few of these agents, fine. But any more? Meh.

Rachni. Damn it, why was I forced to male a decision of that scale on my own?!? Bugs are always good to have.

Thorian was terrifying.. I hope we learn more about him and his link to the Reapers.

For the Rachni, my Shepard thought "Hm. Kill this bug who may be lying but if not, I would lose out on a legendary army of insectile shock-troops? You get a pass today, but I will be watching for any signs of squirrelliness." He does that a lot with Paragon decisions.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-22, 12:41 PM

Landis963

2011-12-22, 02:02 PM

Thing is, I felt cheated the obvious 3rd option wasn't left open:

"I don't want to kill you, but I can't take the risk of letting you go free, what if you are lying? How about we keep you here, I promise there won't e any more tortures or test, and my government will now dialogue with you until you are determined to be no longer a threat to all galactic life?"

Like if Shepard, on her very first Spectre assignment, should have the right to make that decision here and now.

You would leave the rachni queen's fate to the Citadel, who in-universe are ultraparanoid and unwilling to listen to reason about anything that once screwed them over, unless they are made to? Admittedly, they did have a good reason, but if the rachni queen's existence was exposed, they'd hit the killswitch faster than you can say "But it's genocide!" Regardless, the real third option is to detach the tanks with the deadly acid and leave the cage where it is. Then telling the Council about the queen, but neglecting to mention the sabotaged tanks.

Which brings up something else I don't particularly care for in this series: Why can't you lie, or omit, or do anything else except for tell the unvarnished truth? ME2 was a little better in this regard, with the possible lie to Jack and the omission that forms a central part of Tali's loyalty mission. But bluffing is still underrepresented as a means of communication in Mass Effect.

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-22, 02:11 PM

Thing is, I felt cheated the obvious 3rd option wasn't left open:

"I don't want to kill you, but I can't take the risk of letting you go free, what if you are lying? How about we keep you here, I promise there won't e any more tortures or test, and my government will now dialogue with you until you are determined to be no longer a threat to all galactic life?"

Like if Shepard, on her very first Spectre assignment, should have the right to make that decision here and now.
Right, maybe, but no power to make it so.

Shepard was sitting in the middle of an isolated research base on a corporate-owned planet. Being a Spectre doesn't give you the resources of the Council (you still need to buy your own Spectre gear!) merely the extra-legal authority to do pretty much whatever you want in Council Space. And even that is limited by how much a given entity cares about the Council's authority.

So yeah, you could have said that -- and let the Queen be retaken by corporate forces while the Council did nothing. Hell, even if you personally sat your ass next to the Queen and killed every corporate soldier that came at you there still isn't any guarantee that the Council would have done anything except shoot the Queen in the head if they decided to listen to your pleas.

Remember: Spectres are not ambassadors, nor government officials. They are the hitmen of the Council.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-22, 02:37 PM

Point.

Damn it, Mass Effect is such a rich world for Pen and Paper rpg. Spectres are the quintessential adventuring parties

GloatingSwine

2011-12-22, 04:12 PM

Siosilvar

2011-12-22, 04:42 PM

Geths were meh. Interesting antagonists, not ennough delved in their AI nature beyond "specie of antagonist robots". I gathered we learn more about them in ME2.

You learn quite a bit more about them in ME2. For starters,
You can get one as a squadmate.

chiasaur11

2011-12-22, 04:46 PM

If you save the council, they will all be ***** to you in Mass Effect 2.

If you let the council die, there will be a new council in Mass Effect 2, but they won't even speak to you.

Only if you're a jerk to them. Or maybe if you elect Udina. They're not nice, but they do seem to be trying to balance "Galactic hero" with "Possibly crazy, definitely working for terrorists."

Gaius Marius

2011-12-22, 04:49 PM

If you save the council, they will all be ***** to you in Mass Effect 2.

If you let the council die, there will be a new council in Mass Effect 2, but they won't even speak to you.

I don't mind that. Although I have a hard time understanding why theyd refuse to meet me if I'm the one who allowed them to get their job.

Specially if they are all humans.

Joran

2011-12-22, 04:52 PM

Get thee to Mass Effect 2, IMMEDIATELY. Do not pass go, do not post on this thread anymore, go play Mass Effect 2.

You'll thank me later.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-22, 05:02 PM

Get thee to Mass Effect 2, IMMEDIATELY. Do not pass go, do not post on this thread anymore, go play Mass Effect 2.

You'll thank me later.

:smallbiggrin:

WAAY ahead of ya. The reason I know I'll get to know more about the Quarians is 'cause I met Tali already...

The new system is akward. I miss my shotgun Vangard...

Zevox

2011-12-22, 05:23 PM

The new system is akward. I miss my shotgun Vangard...
How can you miss your shotgun Vanguard? Shotgun Vanguards are far better in 2 than in 1. Charge kicks so much ass.

Zevox

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-22, 06:10 PM

How can you miss your shotgun Vanguard? Shotgun Vanguards are far better in 2 than in 1. Charge kicks so much ass.

Zevox
Only on easy difficulty. Otherwise you end up with "Suicide Charge" Shephard.

Still fun, but Drone Riggers Engineers will always have a special place in my heart. Triple up with Exploding Drones for extreme lulz :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

2011-12-22, 06:16 PM

Only on easy difficulty. Otherwise you end up with "Suicide Charge" Shephard.
I played my Vanguard on veteran, and Charge still kicked ass. The fact that it restores and boosts your shields when you use it and has a pretty short cooldown makes it good, and once you get it fully upgraded to minimize the cooldown and maximize the shield boost it's straight-up godly. Gets you right into perfect range for shotgunning, lets you pop a couple of (head)shots for a quick kill even on enemies with shields and armor, and then you can go right back into another charge for another kill.

Honestly, for the five classes I've played (all but Soldier), I'd call Vanguard the second most powerful, almost entirely because of Charge. It only loses to Sentinel, just because Tech Armor is pretty much invulnerability in most situations and having both warp and overload is just ridiculous.

Zevox

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-22, 06:25 PM

I played my Vanguard on veteran, and Charge still kicked ass. The fact that it restores and boosts your shields when you use it and has a pretty short cooldown makes it good, and once you get it fully upgraded to minimize the cooldown and maximize the shield boost it's straight-up godly. Gets you right into perfect range for shotgunning, lets you pop a couple of (head)shots for a quick kill even on enemies with shields and armor, and then you can go right back into another charge for another kill.

Honestly, for the five classes I've played (all but Soldier), I'd call Vanguard the second most powerful, almost entirely because of Charge. It only loses to Sentinel, just because Tech Armor is pretty much invulnerability in most situations and having both warp and overload is just ridiculous.

Zevox
The real problem with Vanguard isn't killing the dude you Charge -- which can still be tough, without a pimped out Shotgun & Charge -- but the fact that you're almost certainly to be without cover. Crossfire is not your friend :smallannoyed:

Zevox

2011-12-22, 06:41 PM

The real problem with Vanguard isn't killing the dude you Charge -- which can still be tough, without a pimped out Shotgun & Charge -- but the fact that you're almost certainly to be without cover. Crossfire is not your friend :smallannoyed:
Usually only a problem early on. In the early stages you do need to make sure there will either be cover available, or there aren't too many enemies who will have a bead on you. Later on charge recharges fast enough that you can get reckless unless there's a particularly nasty enemy around, like Harbinger or a Scion, or a particularly large number of enemies around (say 8+) that will all be shooting you after you charge.

Zevox

Gaius Marius

2011-12-22, 06:54 PM

Zevox

2011-12-22, 06:58 PM

What I meant is simply my muscle memory fails me. The abilities of Throw and Lift, Barrier and Shield Recharge I used are gone. The combat seems also much more fast-paced than before, and I hate the fact that I have to consider ammos for my Shotgun now.

I don't miss "Vanguard", I miss MY Vanguard.
Ammo for shotguns is a problem early on, but it gets better later. You'll be able to research an upgrade that doubles their ammo capacity, and picking up damage upgrades and inferno ammo makes each shot more effective as you go on.

Which actually works out fine in the end, since you can't be as reckless with charge early on, and most shotguns are crap outside of very close range.

Zevox

Gaius Marius

2011-12-22, 07:15 PM

And this is why Elder Scrolls can really mess with your gaming mindset. I keep forgetting that just because I don't use Shotgun all the time, it won't screw my skill progression with it.

Joran

2011-12-23, 03:38 AM

Ammo for shotguns is a problem early on, but it gets better later. You'll be able to research an upgrade that doubles their ammo capacity, and picking up damage upgrades and inferno ammo makes each shot more effective as you go on.

Which actually works out fine in the end, since you can't be as reckless with charge early on, and most shotguns are crap outside of very close range.

Zevox

And melee them if they're close.

What I meant is simply my muscle memory fails me. The abilities of Throw and Lift, Barrier and Shield Recharge I used are gone. The combat seems also much more fast-paced than before, and I hate the fact that I have to consider ammos for my Shotgun now.

I don't miss "Vanguard", I miss MY Vanguard.

Faster-paced, the shooting definitely feels more responsive. Good for someone who enjoys a good FPS, but I hear ya.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-23, 11:16 AM

And melee them if they're close.

Faster-paced, the shooting definitely feels more responsive. Good for someone who enjoys a good FPS, but I hear ya.

I think I started to get the hang of it. It's actually pretty cool!!! Krogans are a menace, and so are Heavy Mechs. But otherwise, thi game is very cinematic, both in it's storyline and combat.

While saving Archangel's ass (is there a more badass being in the 'verse?!) I had the chance of reaching an overseeing position that was opposite of my teammates. I practically had a point blank shot at anyone coming in the stairs, and if they were trying to shoot my teammates, they would turn their back to me for a killer sneak attack.

Vanguard is very, very tactical. It's about battlefield control. I luw it.

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-23, 11:26 AM

While saving Archangel's ass (is there a more badass being in the 'verse?!)
Yes. Commander Shepard.

To quote the song: "You could fight like a Krogan, run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeY-2ovpF9c)

Gaius Marius

2011-12-23, 11:53 AM

Yes. Commander Shepard.

To quote the song: "You could fight like a Krogan, run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeY-2ovpF9c)

This obviously goes without saying, duh.

Thing is, I am not certain if Shepard qualifies as a "being". "Divinity" or "Avatar of Awesomeness" would better fit the bill.

When you hear about Archangel from his enemies, you just hear mounting tale of his awesomeness. He gets better and better as you go, how he drove everybody on Omega into a fearful frenzy directed at him.

Fun fact: I knew who Archangel was at the time, and I felt a strong twinge of pride for my boy.

The_Final_Stand

2011-12-23, 02:00 PM

An explanation on how to Vanguard. (http://www.majhost.com/gallery/SaberScorpion/MassEffect/hcnbt.png)

Gaius Marius

2011-12-23, 02:21 PM

An explanation on how to Vanguard. (http://www.majhost.com/gallery/SaberScorpion/MassEffect/hcnbt.png)

Thank you very much my good sir, that will come in handy.

Is there a way to alternate between targets? My PC gamer version always auto-target the closest ennemy in my reticulary.

Zevox

2011-12-23, 03:14 PM

Thank you very much my good sir, that will come in handy.

Is there a way to alternate between targets? My PC gamer version always auto-target the closest ennemy in my reticulary.
Hm, on the 360 I just held the power menu open to pause the game while looking around, centered on the target I wanted, and it auto-aimed for him. Not sure how that works on the PC version though.

Zevox

The_Final_Stand

2011-12-24, 08:53 AM

That's how it works for the PC version too. Power menu to pause, rotate the screen until your victim is targeted, select Charge, watch the target go flying.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-24, 02:08 PM

Sweet. Been mastering how it works, pretty cool.

Hey, I've just been through my DLC razzia, and I was wondering if the Equipment DLCs are worth it? I downloaded the extra quests and companions, but I am not sure if I like the idea of "Hey, here's new equipment that is more powerful than anything else in the vanilla game, taking away the concept of actually finding the best equipment in the game since we give better ones to you right away"

Like, the inferno armor that makes me faster and increased biotics. Really? Or the Geth Long Range Plasma Shotgun. As cool as the weapon actually is, will it ruin the experience..?

Oh, and when I can get to use the Krogan Shogun I just bought Grunt?!?!?! :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

2011-12-24, 02:32 PM

Hey, I've just been through my DLC razzia, and I was wondering if the Equipment DLCs are worth it? I downloaded the extra quests and companions, but I am not sure if I like the idea of "Hey, here's new equipment that is more powerful than anything else in the vanilla game, taking away the concept of actually finding the best equipment in the game since we give better ones to you right away"

Like, the inferno armor that makes me faster and increased biotics. Really? Or the Geth Long Range Plasma Shotgun. As cool as the weapon actually is, will it ruin the experience..?
Honestly, I don't think the armor is worth using outside of the early stages myself. When you don't have many pieces of armor for your regular suit they're good, but I always prefer to use the customizable set once I get certain pieces. Plus I hate that they have helmets preventing me from seeing Sheperd's face when I spent so much time on making that something I'd actually like looking at.

As for the weapons, not sure. Honestly, in this game most weapons aren't clearly better or worse than each other, they're just different and it becomes a matter of preference. Being better in one area tends to come with being worse in another: the Geth Plasma Shotgun, for instance, is the only shotgun worth a damn at long range, but many other shotguns out-damage it at point-blank range. On the flip side the highest-damage shotguns also tend to have the lowest ammo, so there's that to take into account as well.

About the only weapon I can recall that I'd call just useless once you get another of its type is the starting sub-machine gun, which is just kinda of sad, being stuck on a mere three-round burst that isn't even particularly accurate while all the rest do full automatic firing. Maybe the starting shotgun too, I didn't use that for long.

Oh, and when I can get to use the Krogan Shogun I just bought Grunt?!?!?! :smallbiggrin:
There's a point about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through the game where you'll get to either acquire that or gain the ability to use a weapon type you normally can't (sniper rifle or assault rifle for a Vanguard). That is the highest-damage shotgun, but it also has the lowest ammo reserves. Personally, I wound up grabbing the ability to use assault rifles for my Vanguard, so that I'd have a single good general weapon to switch to when the situation was too dangerous for charge + shotgun antics. (Also because I have no plans to play a Soldier, so that was the only way I'd ever see how the game's assault rifles worked.)

Zevox

The_Final_Stand

2011-12-24, 03:20 PM

My opinion on the weapon DLC:
Geth Plasma Shotgun is... novel. My Sentinel uses it quite handily. When actually Vanguarding though, the Claymore (Grunt's heavy shotgun) is king. (See flowchart. Get the timing right on the punch after the reload, and you skip a sizable fraction of the reload animation.) The Mattock assault rifle on the other hand, is powerful. Maybe even too powerful. Extremely accurate, fast firing shots, assault rifle clip.
The Phalanx pistol, however, I never leave home without. That laser sight is just too useful.

I stopped using the Incisor the moment I got the Viper Sniper rifle. Shield damage is taken care of by my SMG. Which is of course the Locust from Kasumi, since the Tempest is just nowhere near accurate enough. That said, there appears to be a bug meaning that teammates deal full damage with the Incisor, whilst otherwise they only do a fraction of the damage you do.

The full body armours, with the exception of the Kestrel pack, always seemed superfluous to me. The Kestrel is awesome because it provides so many types of boosts, and you can mix and match them. The Archon Visor and Capacitor Helmet are pretty good, particularly the Archon, since I use powers whenever possible.

Again, that's all just my opinion.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-24, 03:22 PM

There's a point about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through the game where you'll get to either acquire that or gain the ability to use a weapon type you normally can't (sniper rifle or assault rifle for a Vanguard). That is the highest-damage shotgun, but it also has the lowest ammo reserves. Personally, I wound up grabbing the ability to use assault rifles for my Vanguard, so that I'd have a single good general weapon to switch to when the situation was too dangerous for charge + shotgun antics. (Also because I have no plans to play a Soldier, so that was the only way I'd ever see how the game's assault rifles worked.)

Thanks.

So, even with doubled ammo, this Krogan Shotgun ain't worth it, you think?

It'd be nice to use assault rifles, that's for sure. Hand Cannons and Submachine guns are cute, but they often don't really cut it.

GloatingSwine

2011-12-24, 03:25 PM

It'd be nice to use assault rifles, that's for sure. Hand Cannons and Submachine guns are cute, but they often don't really cut it.

Get Stolen Memory and use the Locust SMG. In fact, get Stolen Memory anyway because it's really good.

Zevox

2011-12-24, 03:36 PM

Thanks.

So, even with doubled ammo, this Krogan Shotgun ain't worth it, you think?
I couldn't say for sure, since I didn't pick it up. I got advice about it here, looked up the clip size on the Mass Effect wiki, and decided I'd personally rather stick with my preferred shotgun, the Geth Plasma. But there are others here who love the Claymore. It's probably mostly a personal preference thing in the end.

It'd be nice to use assault rifles, that's for sure. Hand Cannons and Submachine guns are cute, but they often don't really cut it.
Oh no, they tend to work just fine, it's mostly the matter that you have to switch between them if the enemy has multiple defenses. Pistols do well against armor but poorly against shields, SMGs are the reverse. Assault Rifles are good against both (albeit not quite as well against each as the more specialized weapons), so they're a one-stop shop by comparison, and for my Vanguard that was what I personally wanted, just a single weapon that could handle things well when I wasn't shotgunning.

Zevox

Gaius Marius

2011-12-24, 03:38 PM

Get Stolen Memory and use the Locust SMG. In fact, get Stolen Memory anyway because it's really good.

Done. New squadmate was worth it, but if you tell me there is a new weapon as well...

I don't like the fact that you don't see the stats of your weapons in this game, however.

Xondoure

2011-12-24, 10:39 PM

Locust with inferno ammo turns into a slightly weaker version of the CPB. It's that good.

GloatingSwine

2011-12-25, 03:03 PM

Done. New squadmate was worth it, but if you tell me there is a new weapon as well...

I don't like the fact that you don't see the stats of your weapons in this game, however.

I don't think the stats are terribly important. Shoot a few dudes with it and you'll soon see whether it's any good or not.

There's certainly a lot greater variation between weapons in Mass Effect 2 than in the first one, where any weapon in a given category was fundamentally identical to every other one except for the numbers.

Zevox

2011-12-25, 03:26 PM

I don't think the stats are terribly important. Shoot a few dudes with it and you'll soon see whether it's any good or not.

There's certainly a lot greater variation between weapons in Mass Effect 2 than in the first one, where any weapon in a given category was fundamentally identical to every other one except for the numbers.
Pretty much, yeah. For the most part the different weapons in ME2 don't vary in ways that would benefit from explaining via stats, with the exception of their clip sizes. You have to see for yourself how far off-course the bullets spray or how tightly they stay on-course, and see for yourself how fast or slow the weapon shoots. You could make an arbitrary "fire rate" stat for the Mantis and Viper sniper rifles to show that the Viper shoots much faster than the Mantis, but it won't be until you try the Viper out and see how a sniper rifle that fires at an almost semi-automatic rate works that you'll know what you're dealing with.

Zevox

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-25, 06:02 PM

Must have DLCs for ME2:

Stolen Memories
Lair Of the Shadow Broker

REALLY good and worth the money:
Project Overlord
The Firepower Pack
The armor one (that I can't remember the name of right now)

Landis963

2011-12-25, 07:15 PM

Must have DLCs for ME2:

Stolen Memories
Lair Of the Shadow Broker

Oh yes. ESPECIALLY Lair. Worth every penny.

REALLY good and worth the money:
Project Overlord
The Firepower Pack
The armor one (that I can't remember the name of right now)

Overlord's OK, but I don't much like horror and the stupid green face scares the bejeezus out of me every single time. Never actually tried Firepower. The Armor pack (I think you're referring to the one with the Kestrel Armor?) is called the Aegis Pack, and it's pretty good as well.

Zorg

2011-12-26, 08:17 AM

New ME3 screenshot - Shep, Ashley (in Spectre armour) and Liara:

http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/mass-effect-3-vga-screenshot-01.jpg

Landis963

2011-12-26, 09:24 AM

New ME3 screenshot - Shep, Ashley (in Spectre armour) and Liara:

[pic]

That looks like it's either someplace we don't know about, or the Normandy's cargo hold. Also, the Spectre armor's a bit blah.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-26, 01:20 PM

That looks like it's either someplace we don't know about, or the Normandy's cargo hold. Also, the Spectre armor's a bit blah.

Ashley made up for it by Gaining a Level in Babeness

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-26, 02:13 PM

Ashley made up for it by Gaining a Level in Babeness
Disagree! I don't want Spectre Barbie, I wand Ashley "all due respect" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1073668/quotes) Williams! We already have Miranda and her various issues; we don't need another friggin' space babe on the Normandy :smallannoyed:

Tome

2011-12-26, 03:51 PM

Thanks.

So, even with doubled ammo, this Krogan Shotgun ain't worth it, you think?

It'd be nice to use assault rifles, that's for sure. Hand Cannons and Submachine guns are cute, but they often don't really cut it.

Because it's releveant, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lek_gn3h6oc)'s what Charge and the Claymore can do.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-26, 06:21 PM

Disagree! I don't want Spectre Barbie, I wand Ashley "all due respect" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1073668/quotes) Williams! We already have Miranda and her various issues; we don't need another friggin' space babe on the Normandy :smallannoyed:

Oh, I so frikking HATE Miranda. She is always smiling her stupid smile. She looks like she was shot with botox and is now locked into that stupid face.

Plus, the whole "oh, I am so frakking perfect, designed and trained to be perfect". So ultra annoying. What were they thinking?!

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-26, 06:24 PM

Oh, I so frikking HATE Miranda. She is always smiling her stupid smile. She looks like she was shot with botox and is now locked into that stupid face.

Plus, the whole "oh, I am so frakking perfect, designed and trained to be perfect". So ultra annoying. What were they thinking?!
Eh, I preferred Miranda to Jacob the Bland. It's a shame he gets all the good battle chatter and none of the useful abilities :smallsigh:

Androgeus

2011-12-26, 06:28 PM

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-26, 06:58 PM

because babe = issues?
Well... I was trying to be vague about ME2 spoilers in a ME1 thread but:
Specifically the issues regarding why she looks like a "babe." Created by a man to be the "perfect daughter" she would obviously rate highly on the conventional-standards-of-beauty meter for anyone interested. However, her saving grace as a character is that her appearance is used to add complexity to her character. Far too often, games just produce legions of beautiful ladies for men to ogle which feels a bit cheap when compared to the more nuanced models used for male characters. Ashley from ME1 looked comparatively "normal" in that she wasn't prancing around the battlefield in high-heels and makeup -- which worked into her (admittedly standard) "tomboy" persona. But hey, it was a change and now her design has been revamped (pun intended) to fit in with the Mirandas and Asari Strippers of MEverse :smallsigh:

Additionally, Miranda's design has issues because some people find her a little too Uncanny Valley for them. Me, I was okay with it, but I see no reason to inflict that design on more characters.

Zevox

2011-12-26, 07:06 PM

Miranda's face is definitely an uncanny valley thing for me. I remarked way back when I first played the game that it reminded me of Michael Jackson, and that's still the case. I like her, but sheesh, it's hard to look at her face and not be weirded out.

For Ash, I suppose I'll be curious to hear whether her change of hair style was a conscious decision on her part (i.e. she always wanted longer hair but military restrictions prevented it, now she's a spectre and answers to no one on that) or whether it gets ignored, meaning it was just a cynical change on Bioware's part. Honestly though I'm still more curious how her skin wound up several shades lighter than it used to be :smallannoyed: .

Oh, her spectre armor looks fine to me. It's armor, it's supposed to be functional, not flashy, and that's about as functional as ME armor designs get.

Zevox

ShinyRocks

2011-12-26, 07:37 PM

Urgh. 'In this episode, the role of Ashley Williams will be played by Paula Abdul.'

The armour's cute, though.

Stolen Memory is a great little adventure and Kasumi is just boss.

Xondoure

2011-12-26, 07:47 PM

Zevox

2011-12-26, 07:53 PM

I've yet to see evidence that the skin tone change isn't just the fact that ME1 had terrible lighting.
Trust me, I was watching for that last time I replayed ME1. Even in good lighting (on the Citadel, to be precise), Ash's skin was definitely darker than it is in ME3 previews - she still looked to have more of a latina shade than the total caucasian look she has now.

Zevox

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-26, 08:03 PM

I've yet to see evidence that the skin tone change isn't just the fact that ME1 had terrible lighting. Other than that, I think she looks pretty good. After all everyone has changed, no one looks the same as they did in ME1 because all the designs have been improved. Garrus, Tali, Wrex, Kaiden, Liara, Anderson... It confuses me why Ashley is the one everyone gets upset about.
It's because she appears to have gone through Chickification (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Chickification).

Most everyone else got character development but the original romantic leads in ME2. Hell, Liara got an entire DLC's worth of character development!

Now, in ME3 we see Kaiden & Ashley are returning to the spotlight. Good so far. We don't know much of them so we go by screenshots. Look at Kaiden (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Kaidan_Alenko). OK, boy has a wider jaw and some stubble -- Bioware decided to make him a bit more masculine. Well, not too many people are going to howl about that and, besides, the changes are fairly subtle.

Now look at Ashley (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ashley_Williams). ME1: Neat haircut, muted facial features, and a serious expression. ME3: She got a perm, sculpted her eyebrows and raised her cheekbones. Look at that! That's not a soldier, that's a fashion model.

* * * *

Now, we don't know how this affects her characterization -- if at all -- so it's not like I'm going to declare that ME3 Ashely is dead to me or something. But what it does say about the thinking behind Bioware's redesign ain't comforting.

Xondoure

2011-12-26, 08:30 PM

I still disagree. Yes there are differences but I don't think she really moved that far towards total bimboification and as you said Kaiden was reworked to make him more appealing as well. Heck, look at default Shepard between games 1 and 2, yes its the same design but a lot of subtle changes still took place. All I'm saying is that the art style has become louder and more vibrant to match the more action packed gameplay and climactic story.

VanBuren

2011-12-26, 09:13 PM

I think we're jumping to a lot of conclusions here. I'm pretty sure even Miko would tell us to slow down.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-26, 09:17 PM

Just finished Kasumi's mission. I was left hungry. The mission is fun, but I was left with no idea what the serious data actually was. Damn it, if I'm gonna tell Kadumi to delete or keep it, I'd like to know what it was all about.

Also, miss Kasumi sure was fast to trust me with her life dilemma.

Otherwise, the thief is fun as hell to have beside me on a mission, but I won't keep her around. She is too similar in a tactical role to my Vangard. It's the V's role to distract and flank the ennemis to give the best shots to my allies. Kasumi practically does that at the same time as I. While it wreaks havoc on the ennemi's line, there is little tactical sense to have a superfluous close combat specialist.

I'll keep her around on my Soldier/infiltrator playthrough.

And now, I wish I had taken the Claymore... I need a saveedit.

Derthric

2011-12-26, 09:21 PM

Landis963

2011-12-26, 09:55 PM

This might be a heretical thing to say, but... what if Kaidan's still alive? :smalleek: Don't lynch me, please.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-26, 10:28 PM

This might be a heretical thing to say, but... what if Kaidan's still alive? :smalleek: Don't lynch me, please.

Not in my game.

I saved Ashley. Felt she needed closure with her family's history. Kaiden's life was only one of suffering due to his L2 implant.

Oh... I.. I submitted to the Migrant Fleet that they should go to War. I hope Special Team Member will open the option to a diplomatic solution between the Migrant Fleet and the Opposing Faction.

chiasaur11

2011-12-27, 01:20 AM

Not in my game.

I saved Ashley. Felt she needed closure with her family's history. Kaiden's life was only one of suffering due to his L2 implant.

Oh... I.. I submitted to the Migrant Fleet that they should go to War. I hope Special Team Member will open the option to a diplomatic solution between the Migrant Fleet and the Opposing Faction.

Not now he won't.

You can tell the fleet to save their ammo for the real enemy at the meeting, but if you tell them to go in guns blazing, that's how it goes next game.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-27, 01:36 AM

Not now he won't.

You can tell the fleet to save their ammo for the real enemy at the meeting, but if you tell them to go in guns blazing, that's how it goes next game.

"At the meeting"? You meant, at the end of the trial?

Too bad we can't use the first diplomatic contact with the Geth like Legion to serve as ground for negociations. I don't think the Geth need the Quarian Homeworld THAT much. Not as much as the Quarian themselves. Plus, like I've been told, if the Quarian really join the fight against the Reapers, where are they going to put their civilian population during the war?

Just finding a colony means them re-adapting to an entirely alien environment with an very much weakened immunitary system. Tali said herself "It's the different between 60 and 600 years of adaptation".

The Geth giving back the Quarian Homeworld makes the Quarian viable as a specie again, it might help remove the Quarian from the Geth's list of ennemies and opens up diplomatic possibilities with the AIs in the future. It'd be a damn big show of good faith, and the Geth might be one of the most powerful ally to recruit against the Reapers in the long-run.

Damn, I hope I didn't condemned the Quarians to go all gun blazing and unreasonable. I thought telling them to prepare to war was just to keep hoping for progress soon, rather than starting to despair.

Quarian politics sure were interesting to peer into... :smallbiggrin:

Xondoure

2011-12-27, 01:51 AM

Yyyeahhh... if you told the Quarians to fight the Geth than I'm afraid you've probably sunk that ship. I told them to save it for the Reapers and I'm still scared they'll go in guns blazing against the Geth crippling my defenses.

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-27, 02:20 AM

Ashley from ME1 looked comparatively "normal" in that she wasn't prancing around the battlefield in high-heels and makeup -- which worked into her (admittedly standard) "tomboy" persona. But hey, it was a change and now her design has been revamped (pun intended) to fit in with the Mirandas and Asari Strippers of MEverse :smallsigh:

Sorry but what?

1. She was VERY attractive in ME1
2. Her "new" look, as far as I can tell, is a slightly more detailed face (still the same basic shape as in ME1) and longer hair.

I am sorry, I just don't see what you claim you see.

Besides, the complaints about her looks in this thread does not compute: She cannot BOTH be "overly space-babe-y" AND "have a boring ugly armor".

Derthric

2011-12-27, 05:25 AM

Sorry but what?

1. She was VERY attractive in ME1
2. Her "new" look, as far as I can tell, is a slightly more detailed face (still the same basic shape as in ME1) and longer hair.

I am sorry, I just don't see what you claim you see.

Besides, the complaints about her looks in this thread does not compute: She cannot BOTH be "overly space-babe-y" AND "have a boring ugly armor".

I like that shot of her in that armor, the hair not so much, but that armor is A-OK with me. Its her outfit they showed in the preview, particularly gameinformer, with the unzipped skinn showing collar that drives me up a wall. After Garrus there is only one more button downed, formal person in the MEverse and that is Ash. Also I agree with Zevox, that she *looks* lighter skinned, granted that could be how she is being presented but we shall see.

As an aside to this, part of the (over?)reaction to this is, the frustration that some(me included) feel when we see character's over sexualized in an attempt to mass market. And given the culture of some companies *cough* EA *cough* I wouldn't put the decisions behind these changes past that simplistic answer.

And ontop of all that I am still gonna get this game and every DLC and my Canon!shep is going to want his goldstar for staying faithful to the Operations Chief!

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-27, 06:13 AM

I like that shot of her in that armor, the hair not so much, but that armor is A-OK with me. Its her outfit they showed in the preview, particularly gameinformer, with the unzipped skinn showing collar that drives me up a wall. After Garrus there is only one more button downed, formal person in the MEverse and that is Ash. Also I agree with Zevox, that she *looks* lighter skinned, granted that could be how she is being presented but we shall see.

I doubt it; you have to remember that most of the time you see her face, unless you always had the helmet toggle off, she was standing in a bluish light with deep shadows ((RANT)god I hate the thought of them re-designing the interior of Normandy to be closer to the first ship. No modern battleship is as dark as that, and neither should a ship in the future be(/RANT)). She was quite typically "white" in her skin color in ME1 IMHO.

Edit: besides, I always envisioned her as more of a Good Soldier that Parties Hard kind of gal; after all you have no problems making her break regulations and have sex with her commanding officer...

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-27, 09:08 AM

Edit: besides, I always envisioned her as more of a Good Soldier that Parties Hard kind of gal; after all you have no problems making her break regulations and have sex with her commanding officer...
To be fair, you were pirates at the time :smalltongue:

Landis963

2011-12-27, 10:55 AM

Besides, the complaints about her looks in this thread does not compute: She cannot BOTH be "overly space-babe-y" AND "have a boring ugly armor".

I never said her armor was ugly, just boring. Also, I've never thought Ashley was space-babe-y, even after she lets her hair down.

Zevox

2011-12-27, 11:56 AM

I doubt it; you have to remember that most of the time you see her face, unless you always had the helmet toggle off, she was standing in a bluish light with deep shadows
I always did (and have always assumed that most everyone else did as well, honestly). And like I said, I was watching for this last time I replayed ME1, and yes, even in good lighting such as on the Citadel in the Presidium, she definitely looks noticeably darker-skinned than in her ME3 previews.

Heck, she looks noticeable darker-skinned in ME2 than in ME3, and you sure can't pass that off as bad lighting. For comparison:

ME2:
http://tangentgirls.com/gallery/d/4745-1/MassEffect2+2010-06-17+15-37-13-45.JPG
Looks unchanged from ME1.

http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/mass-effect-3-vga-screenshot-01.jpg
If I didn't know that this was supposed to be Ashley, I'd have assumed it was a new character entirely.

Smaller images side-by-side:
http://images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/c/c7/AshleyME2.pnghttp://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln59athUxr1qb618ko1_400.jpg
Zevox

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-27, 12:16 PM

I always did (and have always assumed that most everyone else did as well, honestly). And like I said, I was watching for this last time I replayed ME1, and yes, even in good lighting such as on the Citadel in the Presidium, she definitely looks noticeably darker-skinned than in her ME3 previews.

Heck, she looks noticeable darker-skinned in ME2 than in ME3, and you sure can't pass that off as bad lighting. For comparison:

ME2:
http://tangentgirls.com/gallery/d/4745-1/MassEffect2+2010-06-17+15-37-13-45.JPG
Looks unchanged from ME1.

http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/mass-effect-3-vga-screenshot-01.jpg
If I didn't know that this was supposed to be Ashley, I'd have assumed it was a new character entirely.

Smaller images side-by-side:
http://images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/c/c7/AshleyME2.pnghttp://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln59athUxr1qb618ko1_400.jpg
Zevox

I'm sorry but I honestly don't see any noticeable difference.

Azaran

2011-12-27, 12:19 PM

Thanks for the uploaded photos Zevox.
Now I know what really bothers me about the new ME3 Ash: Make up
I cannot imagine her as a woman with visable use of cosmetics ( or should i say paint :smalleek:), even in her new spectre role.

Dienekes

2011-12-27, 12:28 PM

I'm sorry but I honestly don't see any noticeable difference.

Really? Honestly the lighter skin changes don't bother me at all, but I do see them. Personally, as long as Ash still has copious amounts of chutzpah and wears practical heavier armor in combat I'm fine with her, as those traits really defined her character for me.

Lightening her up, and putter her hair down I view as just cynical attempts to get a wider audience to like her. If it works it's a good business strategy, so bravo. If it doesn't, I still have the same character who I grew to like from ME1. Well I hope it's the same character from ME1. ME2 did a good job of altering and developing personalities some seemed to really work as a continuation of the character (Wrex, Garrus, Tali), and some seemed to scrap the old character almost completely (Liara). I really hope they do the former with Ash.

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-27, 12:36 PM

Lightening her up, and putter her hair down I view as just cynical attempts to get a wider audience to like her.

I don't get this, either. If she isn't military anymore, why would she still have her hair up? It's worth pointing out that her hair isn't LONGER, at least not noticeable so, it's just not bundled up. Same goes for the makeup.

As for the skin, I don't get the connection "less tan=more fanboyz".

Gaius Marius

2011-12-27, 01:49 PM

I don't get this, either. If she isn't military anymore, why would she still have her hair up? It's worth pointing out that her hair isn't LONGER, at least not noticeable so, it's just not bundled up. Same goes for the makeup.

As for the skin, I don't get the connection "less tan=more fanboyz".

3 words: "Not too dark"

Sad society

GloatingSwine

2011-12-27, 02:11 PM

This might be a heretical thing to say, but... what if Kaidan's still alive? :smalleek: Don't lynch me, please.

No what if about it.

Kaidan might be Mr. Bland 2183, but even he's not so annoying you want him to sit on a nuke.

ShinyRocks

2011-12-27, 03:58 PM

Thanks for the uploaded photos Zevox.
Now I know what really annoys me about the new ME3 Ash: MakeUp
I cannot imagine her as a woman with excessive use cosmetics ( or should i say paint ;)), even with her new spectre role.

Yup, it's definitely the make-up. She looks like a drag queen, and not even a very good one.

Azaran

2011-12-27, 05:25 PM

@Shiny Rocks: Well, Drag Queen might be a bit harsh... I hope

Maybe the new make-up is part of her character development. She, the woman, who learned the marine hand-to-hand and can drill a hole in your 200m away, had to learn the sensible use of cosmetics in her role as a spectre :smallbiggrin:

Renegade Femshep`s response: But you look like a drag queen...

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-28, 02:31 AM

Yup, it's definitely the make-up. She looks like a drag queen, and not even a very good one.

Sorry, I don't agree with this either. She's not wearing anything over the top for a woman at her age. Besides, a lot of women in RPGs wear far more (Morrigan, anyone?)

kamikasei

2011-12-28, 05:21 AM

You know, I sympathize with the unhappiness over Ash - she was a lot of things that we don't have enough of in games, and some of those things appear to be partly rolled back with her redesign, in ways that may be perfectly understandable at the individual character level but are unfortunate in the larger picture.

But god damn if some of the comments in this thread don't leave me disgusted with the posters and embarrassed to be aligned with them however vaguely. She's been made more conventionally attractive (in presentation if not underlying appearance) - okay, that's a little unfortunate, but comments that being conventionally attractive invalidates her worth as a soldier? She appears to be wearing more makeup now, so she looks like a drag queen? Really? I'm not sure if that falls under misogynistic, homophobic, or transphobic, but it skeeves the hell out of me.

I rather regret not having her alive in my save file, now.

(I wonder just how politically significant Ash/Kaidan will be as the second and "safer" (i.e. not a zombie cyborg terrorist wackjob) human Spectre. I'm now imagining both complaining that Udina made them get makeovers to look better for newscasts and photo ops.)

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-28, 06:10 AM

(Stuff)

This! Definitely.

ShinyRocks

2011-12-28, 06:13 AM

She appears to be wearing more makeup now, so she looks like a drag queen? Really? I'm not sure if that falls under misogynistic, homophobic, or transphobic, but it skeeves the hell out of me.

Well, as I'm gay, have shared houses with trans friends in the past and have and have some friends who are fantastic at drag, I'm not sure you can get me under any of those. Maybe misogny? I don't really think so, though.

The make-up on the new Ash model looks trowelled on, especially compared with soldier Ash that we know. To the extent of looking like the exaggerated make-up that drag queens use to emphasise femininity. That's what I meant. And all I meant.

Spoilers, because this IS a ME1 thread. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that there will be at least some mention of her change in appearance, with Ash saying that the Spectre freedom has given her the chance to give herself a makeover etc, but if she just looks like that now, then I'll be disappointed that they felt the need to doll up no-nonsense live-to-serve soldier Ash.

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-28, 06:19 AM

The make-up on the new Ash model looks trowelled on, especially compared with soldier Ash that we know. To the extent of looking like the exaggerated make-up that drag queens use to emphasise femininity. That's what I meant. And all I meant.

Spoilers, because this IS a ME1 thread. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that there will be at least some mention of her change in appearance, with Ash saying that the Spectre freedom has given her the chance to give herself a makeover etc, but if she just looks like that now, then I'll be disappointed that they felt the need to doll up no-nonsense live-to-serve soldier Ash.

Again, we disagree. It does NOT look toweled on, or in excess. Not really. It is more than a soldier on duty might wear, but that is about it.

Also, regarding your spoiler... I still don't get this attitude. "They" must "doll up" her? I think this is what grates me the most; this "great conspiracy"?
If she had gone the other way, and shaved her head and removed all makeup? Would that have been better?

kamikasei

2011-12-28, 06:23 AM

Well, as I'm gay, have shared houses with trans friends in the past and have and have some friends who are fantastic at drag, I'm not sure you can get me under any of those.
If you think being gay or having trans friends makes it impossible for you to say or do anything homo/transphobic, that's facepalm-worthy all by itself. I can see what you were trying to say, but believe my when I say you said it badly.

Also, regarding your spoiler... I still don't get this attitude. "They" must "doll up" her? I think this is what grates me the most; this "great conspiracy"?
If she had gone the other way, and shaved her head and removed all makeup? Would that have been better?
Here's the thing... any given change may have a good in-character explanation, but it's informed by out-of-character considerations. There doesn't have to be a "great conspiracy" for the drive behind the change to have been, in full or in part, "oh we need to make Ash look more feminine to boost sales, give her a makeover and get her to start using eyeshadow". And that's unfortunate, because it feeds in to the idea that "there's one way to be a woman and all female characters must hew to that whether it makes sense for them or not". In fact, yes, if she had shaved her head and stopped using what makeup she had been, that would have been better in my book, since a) in the context of ME3 it would make more sense for a soldier to further prioritize practicality over aesthetics than vice versa, and b) it wouldn't have been problematic in the ways already mentioned.

ShinyRocks

2011-12-28, 06:47 AM

If you think being gay or having trans friends makes it impossible for you to say or do anything homo/transphobic, that's facepalm-worthy all by itself. I can see what you were trying to say, but believe my when I say you said it badly.

Here's the thing... any given change may have a good in-character explanation, but it's informed by out-of-character considerations. There doesn't have to be a "great conspiracy" for the drive behind the change to have been, in full or in part, "oh we need to make Ash look more feminine to boost sales, give her a makeover and get her to start using eyeshadow". And that's unfortunate, because it feeds in to the idea that "there's one way to be a woman and all female characters must hew to that whether it makes sense for them or not". In fact, yes, if she had shaved her head and stopped using what makeup she had been, that would have been better in my book, since a) in the context of ME3 it would make more sense for a soldier to further prioritize practicality over aesthetics than vice versa, and b) it wouldn't have been problematic in the ways already mentioned.

Well, quite. Tone of voice comes across badly on the internet. You'll have to trust me (or not - your prerogative) that there was no -phobic intention in what I said.

As for the rest, I agree with you. They do seem to be trying for the broadest possible appeal in ME3 (adding multiplayer, making the shooting better, giving options on how to play [if that's confirmed?]). I don't think it's particularly out there to think that 'feminising' Ash could have been part of that. I think it'll be better if they do discuss it in game, because whatever our opinions on the changes, we all agree that Ash does look noticeably, significantly different, but I doubt the changes are entirely character-motivated.

kamikasei

2011-12-28, 07:14 AM

Well, quite. Tone of voice comes across badly on the internet. You'll have to trust me (or not - your prerogative) that there was no -phobic intention in what I said.
I'm perfectly happy to believe you on that; the problem is that lack of intent does not guarantee lack of effect.

As for the rest, I agree with you. They do seem to be trying for the broadest possible appeal in ME3 (adding multiplayer, making the shooting better, giving options on how to play [if that's confirmed?]). I don't think it's particularly out there to think that 'feminising' Ash could have been part of that. I think it'll be better if they do discuss it in game, because whatever our opinions on the changes, we all agree that Ash does look noticeably, significantly different, but I doubt the changes are entirely character-motivated.
What drives me up the wall about a lot of marketing-minded decisions like this (or not) is that it seems to focus on removing things that they think might scare off the plurality of the audience rather than on including things that might draw in a broader spread of players. Even if mathematically there really are more teenage boys who would refuse to buy the game based solely on Ash threatening their manhood / buy the game based solely on "oh hey one character is a little more conventionally attractive than before" than there are women, or mature male gamers, or (a separate can of worms) people of colour (...I think, in the US at least, that also covers hispanic/latina backgrounds?) who would be pleased to find someone breaking the mould a bit - which premise I'm not, in fact, prepared to grant except for the sake of argument - it just results in a race to the bottom where all games try to be the same "safe" pap that doesn't scare off the single largest segment in each demographic slice but at the price of excluding everyone else and being afraid to differentiate itself.

My head canon has now firmly adopted the in-character marketing explanation, though, and whether it appears on any of the game disks or not, as far as I'm concerned there will be a conversation where Kaidan complains about what a pain in the ass the media spotlight is, how the Alliance keeps sending him hair gel instead of food or ammo in his emergency shipments, and that he hasn't had a decent shave in months because designer stubble "plays better back home".

Azaran

2011-12-28, 03:51 PM

Sorry if my post came off wrong.
I viewed the whole "looks like bad drag queen" too hilariously over the top, that anybody could be offended by it.
Maybe BioWare really pulls off some sane eplanation for Kaidan and Ashley.

But i am still worried about Ashley`s blue eyelids. I remember, that you could give Femshep some similar dark blue eye make-up (at least in ME1).
The results:The engine could not handle it very well...
After five minutes i got annoyed by the look in conversations and created a new character. Part of me thinks the same could happen here.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-28, 04:25 PM

Not that I want to interrupt your fascinating conversation regarding the amount of makeup Ash will wear in ME3 (feminists around the world would be proud), but let's veer back to ME1.

Am I the only one annoyed at the insistence by Shamus Young that the whole "Krogans population increase" is a retcon by the devs?

Because in ME1, we hear the testimony of a guy who hasn't been to his homeworld in decades. He's a melancholic over his people's development and probably not that enthusiast about demographic studies.

On the other hand, you have STG data collector specialists who were specifically drawn in to monitor Genophage development. And the problem was killed in the ovary before it became noticeable.

HOW IS THAT A RETCON?! Can't it be that one party had stronger intelligence than Wrex? Can't it be the work Mordin did further helped against the population increase?

Oh, and I unlocked Mordin's song. Awesome.

And jacob's conversation options are stupid and limited. I hate that character more and more.

Azaran

2011-12-28, 04:43 PM

Well...it is rather boring here, where i am. Maybe i got too ... obsessed.

Sometimes i think the writers intention behind is like "Well you thought your Sentinel-squadmate in ME1 was boring, TRY TO DEAL WITH THIS..."

Is there any statistic out there in the internet how many people liked Kaidan before and after they met Jacob?:smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-28, 05:09 PM

Not that I want to interrupt your fascinating conversation regarding the amount of makeup Ash will wear in ME3 (feminists around the world would be proud), but let's veer back to ME1.

Am I the only one annoyed at the insistence by Shamus Young that the whole "Krogans population increase" is a retcon by the devs?
Shamus Young (of DM of the Rings (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612) fame) appears to have a chip on his shoulders regarding ME. After reading his (many!) posts regarding the plot of ME2 I had to reconsider how I experienced the game. Normally, I'm pretty sensitive to plot holes and the like but I didn't notice anything like what Shamus Young has.

IMHO, he really didn't like the idea of working for Cerberus and that alone caused him to develop a grudge against any and all things ME2. Now, I wasn't happy to work with them either, but it's not like they forced you to do anything that Paragon Shepard would object to. As such, I take anything Shamus Young says regarding ME2 with a large amount of salt.

VanBuren

2011-12-28, 10:56 PM

Shamus Young (of DM of the Rings (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612) fame) appears to have a chip on his shoulders regarding ME. After reading his (many!) posts regarding the plot of ME2 I had to reconsider how I experienced the game. Normally, I'm pretty sensitive to plot holes and the like but I didn't notice anything like what Shamus Young has.

IMHO, he really didn't like the idea of working for Cerberus and that alone caused him to develop a grudge against any and all things ME2. Now, I wasn't happy to work with them either, but it's not like they forced you to do anything that Paragon Shepard would object to. As such, I take anything Shamus Young says regarding ME2 with a large amount of salt.

See, I feel that way about most of his reviews. I thought DM of the Rings was amazing, and I thought his DnD campaign was pretty cool, but there's this vast disconnect when it comes to his video game opinions for me.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-28, 11:50 PM

I don't want to turn this into a Shamus-bashfeast. It just that often, he seems to have very well though opinions that hold some merits.

In this case, it's like he goes all-on rageboy against stuff that actually holds up.

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-28, 11:58 PM

See, I feel that way about most of his reviews. I thought DM of the Rings was amazing, and I thought his DnD campaign was pretty cool, but there's this vast disconnect when it comes to his video game opinions for me.
Such is the hazard of choosing reviewers :smalltongue:

I'm still not 100% on the plot of ME2, but as I get older I find I'm more willing to give folks the benefit of the doubt before declaring "Company X, you have abandoned me!!!1!"

ME2 Discussion
The most awkward part of ME2 centers on the Illusive Man. Why choose Paragon Shepard to revive "without modification" when it is pretty clear he's going to sell you out? This works better if you buy the whole "Illusive Man is Indoctrinated" theory which segues into my larger complaint with Shamus Young's posts.

Shamus Young really has a limited view of the Reapers. He sees them solely as a bunch of interstellar terminators who periodically destroy all fleshbags. Of course, we knew that couldn't be the case from ME1 in which we see evidence of Reaper-tech cyborgs (not just husks, by sentients like Saren) which means they're not just interested in Killing All Humans. Heck, Vigil even talked about how the Reapers seemed to sample organics as they were reaping! So yeah, organics have some role to play in the Reapers' plans and it ain't just about killing everything.

But because Shamus isn't interested in thinking of other reasons, pretty much everything that happens in ME2 makes no sense to him. Sure, I'll admit the Human Reaper is goofy looking but Reaper Tech is supposed to be so alien that it seems like magic -- what better way than figuring out that these god-ships are actually made of people :smallamused:

Anyhoo, I agree that the Alliance doing jack squat stretches plausibility at time but I'm willing to say that The Powers That Be don't want to face the fact that a fairy tale is coming to kill them all. It is much easier to get bogged down in the day-to-day governing of a galactic empire and pretend that this was just the result of an elaborate Geth ploy.

RE: My posts about Ash
I don't see the screen shots as evidence of derailment of Ash's character, but they are worrisome -- primarily because Chickification is a very real thing and I had hoped BioWare was better than that. Kaiden's alterations are much less worrisome because "dudeification" is not quite so prevalent and his changes were much less dramatic.

Siosilvar

2011-12-29, 12:05 AM

RE: My posts about Ash
I don't see the screen shots as evidence of derailment of Ash's character, but they are worrisome -- primarily because Chickification is a very real thing and I had hoped BioWare was better than that. Kaiden's alterations are much less worrisome because "dudeification" is not quite so prevalent and his changes were much less dramatic.

Even if BioWare is better than that...

is EA? :smalleek: :smalltongue:

Zevox

2011-12-29, 12:11 AM

Even if BioWare is better than that...

is EA? :smalleek: :smalltongue:
More importantly: does EA have the power to force Bioware to do something like that if they don't want to?

Zevox

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-29, 02:21 AM

Am I the only one annoyed at the insistence by Shamus Young that the whole "Krogans population increase" is a retcon by the devs?

Shamus has a lot of things wrong about a lot of things. ME2 is one of those. (See Oracle Hunter's post for more details).

(I remember from their let's play of it that they also were amazed as how polite that one mob enforcer was since "no Krogan has ever been that good with words before" despite ME1 being full of Krogans (how can they not remember Wrex) who are very behaved and well spoken when he isn't fighting. In fact, it seems to be a typical Krogan behavior; almost all Krogans behave like that.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-29, 01:54 PM

Woah.

Just finished Mass Effect 2. AWESOME ending!!! I saved everyone, Kasumi infiltrated the heaters, Garrus proved his reliability as leader by being the 2nd team Leader, and Jack finally came around full circle by using her mighty abilities for her Commander.

Everybody survived. When you are on Sheperd's crew, you will come back if it's possible.

And to tell a mighty F. U. to Illusive Man, with me informing the man that hes working for me now. And we will run this show MY way. I got your ship, you AI, the backing of the Lead Councilman, the 5th Fleet Admiral, the Errant Fleet, the Geth, the Krogan Chief Warlord and the f***ing Shadow Broker sleeps with me.

Reapers beware. Shepard is coming to town.

Landis963

2011-12-29, 04:13 PM

Gaius Marius

2011-12-29, 04:23 PM

I have. Most stupid plot I've seen in a long time.

I don't see what I have to fear from the Batarians. Even if Alliance leave me hanging foe politica reasons, I have my own resources to draw on.

Joran

2011-12-29, 04:29 PM

I have. Most stupid plot I've seen in a long time.

I don't see what I have to fear from the Batarians. Even if Alliance leave me hanging foe politica reasons, I have my own resources to draw on.

Yup. Railroaded plot. After Lair of the Shadow Broker, which in my mind is the best DLC I have ever played and should be a model to which other DLCs should aspire, I was heartily disappointed.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-29, 04:58 PM

Yup. Railroaded plot. After Lair of the Shadow Broker, which in my mind is the best DLC I have ever played and should be a model to which other DLCs should aspire, I was heartily disappointed.

Railroad plots ain't necessarily bad. In that case, it's a STUPID railroad plot.

Why was I brought to The Project? Why show me the counter? Why show me what's at stake? Why didn't you just killed me? Why did you telegraphed to me your every single actions to destroy the asteroid so I could stop you?

Stupid stupid stupid. The start was a bit nice, the escape daring. The rest was just one big flushhole.

Landis963

2011-12-29, 05:26 PM

Railroad plots ain't necessarily bad. In that case, it's a STUPID railroad plot.

Why was I brought to The Project? Why show me the counter? Why show me what's at stake? Why didn't you just killed me? Why did you telegraphed to me your every single actions to destroy the asteroid so I could stop you?

Stupid stupid stupid. The start was a bit nice, the escape daring. The rest was just one big flushhole.

And furthermore, WHY DIDN'T SHEPARD CALL THIS IN FIRST? Or at least hack a camera into his helmet so that there would be a record of this so that he could prove to people he had no choice but to blow up that system. Non-Reaper villain stupidity has an actual justification in this continuum, namely indoctrination (incidentally, most of your complaints can probably be chalked up to indoctrination, although that seems a touch convenient) but protagonist stupidity, especially when stuff like this happens a lot around Shepard, has no excuse.

Xondoure

2011-12-29, 06:35 PM

That happens in the first game too with vigil. Shepard seems to have lost the record button on his omnitool.

Tome

2011-12-29, 07:13 PM

That happens in the first game too with vigil. Shepard seems to have lost the record button on his omnitool.

And they can't even pretend that those don't exist. Tali's was a plot point in the first game. :smallconfused:

EDIT Record functions on Omni-Tools, that is.

Gaius Marius

2011-12-29, 08:15 PM

And they can't even pretend that those don't exist. Tali's was a plot point in the first game. :smallconfused:

You dirty boy :smallwink:

Oracle_Hunter

2011-12-29, 10:45 PM

And they can't even pretend that those don't exist. Tali's was a plot point in the first game. :smallconfused:

EDIT Record functions on Omni-Tools, that is.
To be fair, it wasn't her recording device -- it was a Geth module she hacked. As far as we know, Omni-Tools don't have independent recording equipment -- they're just portable Rapid Prototypers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_prototyping).

That said, talking to Anderson early in ME2 should have made Shepard run down to the Citadel electronics store and buy a passel of recorders. Of course, you can't sell ore or buy bullets so maybe they don't make them for sale either :smalltongue:

Yeah, saying there are some Gameplay & Story Segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation) issues in ME2 is like saying Shepard is a little endorsement-happy :smallcool:

Landis963

2011-12-29, 10:59 PM

That happens in the first game too with vigil. Shepard seems to have lost the record button on his omnitool.

True. I was going to say that the Vigil thing was justified... somehow, but I remembered how long these conversations can take.

Xondoure

2011-12-30, 12:14 AM

True. I was going to say that the Vigil thing was justified... somehow, but I remembered how long these conversations can take.

Well at first it was speaking in Prothean, but by the time he stops you with the barriers he's converted his interface to galactic basic or whatever they speak in ME.

(edit: Just replayed that part today actually on my engineer run.)

kamikasei

2011-12-30, 07:19 AM

Why was I brought to The Project? Why show me the counter? Why show me what's at stake? Why didn't you just killed me? Why did you telegraphed to me your every single actions to destroy the asteroid so I could stop you?
It might, might, be explainable as the Reapers really really wanting Shepard alive and intact for... some reason yet to be made entirely clear. Possibly not for reasons sufficient to risk the Alpha Relay, but enough that their indoctrinated servants would make bad decisions as a result.

It was damned clumsy storytelling, all in all, though.

What order did you tackle the DLC in? I went with release order, the suicide mission first, then LotSB, then Arrival. I can imagine playing LotSB earlier, though I feel it fits better after the suicide mission, but playing Arrival other than as a bridge between ME2 and ME3 strikes me as likely to be really odd.

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-30, 07:34 AM

The_Final_Stand

2011-12-30, 08:04 AM

It might, might, be explainable as the Reapers really really wanting Shepard alive and intact for... some reason yet to be made entirely clear. Possibly not for reasons sufficient to risk the Alpha Relay, but enough that their indoctrinated servants would make bad decisions as a result.

It was damned clumsy storytelling, all in all, though.

I reckon the Reapers want Shep intact to try to indoctrinate him. That's probably what the idea behind leaving Shep asleep on a table in Arrival was for, rather than offing him then and there. The dude killed one of their own. They probably reckon this guy would be extremely valuable on their side, maybe try to make him an avatar for one of them ala Saren.

Also, they already killed him once, and he came back more dangerous than before. They tried to get the body to make sure, and probably experiment on, and that didn't work out, they probably see no reason to try again.

Avilan the Grey

2011-12-30, 08:59 AM

I reckon the Reapers want Shep intact to try to indoctrinate him. That's probably what the idea behind leaving Shep asleep on a table in Arrival was for, rather than offing him then and there. The dude killed one of their own.

Basically, I think a huge part of it is "Now It's Personal".

Gaius Marius

2011-12-30, 09:26 AM

Can be. It would indeed make sense to have The Arrival set after te Suicide mission. You get the data about the mission from the Alliance, untwisted to Cerberus.

And have things "personnal" makes a lot of sense if you just achieved the Suicide mission. They must start to be annoyed at you...

Anyway. The Arrival was stupid. Lair of the Shadow Broker was awesome. Vanguard vs Vanguard (a REAL Vanguard with Charge, not those silly Eclipse biotics). Great fight.

Landis963

2011-12-30, 01:41 PM

Gaius Marius

2011-12-30, 03:29 PM

Kasumi in Act 1
Overlord in Act 2
Act 3 and Suicide Mission
Lair
Arrival
Quit

Anything else really doesn't make sense, IMO. Lair works best if the Shadow Broker data sent to Shepard was sent during the suicide mission, as whatever your moral leanings, you say some pretty strong things to the guy who pays you and then walk out. Arrival, likewise, comes directly from the Alliance. Also, I never get Zaeed. Bloodthirsty b**&#rd.

Paragon Shepard can respect what he can achieve. But I still made him squirm like a dog after he was caught under the pillar. "I don't want you on my ship"

VanBuren

2011-12-30, 03:40 PM

Paragon Shepard can respect what he can achieve. But I still made him squirm like a dog after he was caught under the pillar. "I don't want you on my ship"

Indeed. It was at that moment I became convinced that Paragon Shepard was as much of a badass as Renegade Shepard, just that he didn't flaunt it all the time.

The result? When Paragon Shepard pulls rank it is infinitely more terrifying.

Dienekes

2011-12-30, 03:44 PM

Indeed. It was at that moment I became convinced that Paragon Shepard was as much of a badass as Renegade Shepard, just that he didn't flaunt it all the time.

The result? When Paragon Shepard pulls rank it is infinitely more terrifying.

Or cheat, max out both bars, and get ALL OF THE BADASS!
(walks away mumbling about his hatred of alignment meters)

Gaius Marius

2011-12-30, 04:53 PM

Or cheat, max out both bars, and get ALL OF THE BADASS!
(walks away mumbling about his hatred of alignment meters)

"There is no such thing as Paragon or Renegade, only Badassness - and those who dare to be it"
- Cmdr Shepard, Avatar of Badassness

Zevox

2011-12-30, 07:50 PM

What order did you tackle the DLC in? I went with release order, the suicide mission first, then LotSB, then Arrival. I can imagine playing LotSB earlier, though I feel it fits better after the suicide mission, but playing Arrival other than as a bridge between ME2 and ME3 strikes me as likely to be really odd.
During my most recent play-throughs:

Act 1: Recruit Zaeed right away, recruit Kasumi after clearing everything on Omega, do Kasumi's loyalty quest ASAP, do Zaeed's just before getting the final companion of the act (Grunt for me). Visit the Normandy crash site sometime when I feel like it.
Act 2: Lair of the Shadowbroker just before doing the Suicide Mission, because I always want the Suicide Mission to be the part that I end on.

Scattered throughout: Do Firewalker missions for extra money, minerals, upgrades, and experience. They're quick and easy enough.

That's it. I have Overlord, but don't like it enough to replay it with all of my files. I also have Arrival, and may replay that with my favorite classes (Sentinel and Vanguard, since I already did it with my Adept) if I ever get the urge to play them again, but probably won't for the rest.

Zevox