Septuple 9s? What?

[UndeadCleric]

The recent thread about triple 9s got my curiosity up. Can the playground find a way to make septuple 9s? To clarify, that would be 9th level of the following:


Arcane spells
Divine spells
Maneuvers
Psionics
Mysteries
Utterances
Pacts


:smalleek:

Is there anything else we could add to this list to make it even longer?


Obviously regular 20 wouldnt work but can we get gestalt 20 to work?
If gestalt doesnt work, how many levels would be needed to get this insanity?

[motoko's ghost]

I was joking about that!:smallamused:

EDIT: you could do it subepic with tristalt easily though

[UndeadCleric]

I was joking about that!:smallamused:

EDIT: you could do it subepic with tristalt easily though

Joking? Bah humbug. Besides this build is septuple not sextuple. :smalltongue:

But its so much fun to see how crazy the builds will become...

[TravelLog]

I would settle for the first 5 in Gestalt at the earliest level possible. Mysteries to 9ths is a lot of work, and the Utterances aren't worth it when you have all the other 9s.

[Tvtyrant]

It is extremely easy actually. Egoist Psion casts Persisted Fusion over and over again each morning to make a super character.

[Hirax]

It is extremely easy actually. Egoist Psion casts Persisted Fusion over and over again each morning to make a super character.

We are Trapperkeeper!

[Tvtyrant]

We are Trapperkeeper!

Heh, now I want to rewatch that episode.

[Suddo]

The problem with trying to do this with Gestalt is that you end up dual Prestiging. If its allowed there are some interesting builds. I'll try and think one up.

[Psyren]

The problem with trying to do this with Gestalt is that you end up dual Prestiging. If its allowed there are some interesting builds. I'll try and think one up.

You can dual-prestige legally in gestalt, so long as you make sure that each individual level has a base class on one side and a PrC on the other.

[herrhauptmann]

You can dual-prestige legally in gestalt, so long as you make sure that each individual level has a base class on one side and a PrC on the other.

Then it's not really dual prestiging, is it?

[Psyren]

Then it's not really dual prestiging, is it?

In what way? You end up with PrCs on both sides, do you not?

[herrhauptmann]

The sides are an abstraction.
It doesn't matter if side A is a class, and B is a prestige class. Or the other way around.

Dual prestiging generally means that you take 2 prestiges classes at a single level...
Dual prestiging:
1)Wiz//Cleric
2)Wiz//Cleric
3)Wiz//Cleric
4)Wiz//Cleric
5)Wiz//Cleric
6)Swiftblade//RSoP
Is not allowed normally.

What you're thinking of (which is not dual prestiging)

1)Wiz//Cleric
2)Wiz//Cleric
3)Wiz//Cleric
4)Wiz//Cleric
5)Wiz//Cleric
6)Swiftblade//Cleric
7)Wiz//RSoP

edit:
Heck, you could even do the following. Though it has very little benefit besides boosting your caster level when your PrC would not ordinarily advance casting.

1)Wiz//Cleric
2)Wiz//Cleric
3)Wiz//Cleric
4)Wiz//Cleric
5)Wiz//Cleric
6)Swiftblade//Wizard

[Suddo]

You can dual-prestige legally in gestalt, so long as you make sure that each individual level has a base class on one side and a PrC on the other.

Yes but this still greatly hamstrings trying to squeeze it out the most you can pre-epic


Sorry this build is incorrect I made a couple of mistakes, it was late, I'm reposting my idea.
Look at this build: Legend below
1 Wizard // Psionic
2 Wizard // Psionic
3 Wizard // Psionic
4 Bard // Psionic
5 Crusader // CM Targeting Wizard & Psionic
6 Crusader // CM
7 SC // Psionic
8 SC // CM Now Targeting Sublime Chord & Psionic
9 Ur-P // CM
10 Ur-P // CM You gain Rebuke
11 RKV // CM RKV Targetting Ur-Priest
12 RKV // CM
13 RKV // CM
14 RKV // CM
15 RKV // CM
16 RKV // Psionic
17 RKV // Psionic
18 RKV // Psionic
19 RKV // Psionic
20 RKV // Crusader

So in the end you are:
9 Arcane (5 Level Wiz. 10th Level Sublime Chord)
9 Divine (10 Ur-Priest)
9 Psionic (9 Psionic + 10 Cerebremancer)
7 Maneuver (3 Crusader + 10 Ruby Knight Vindicator)

Notes:
So some of this I wasn't that familiar with, Psionics mainly. I think you need the 19 levels of Psionic Training to hit 9s if you only need 18 then you can replace the 19th level with RKV // Crusader and get 9/9/9/8.
This obviously breaks the no dual PrC run in Gestalt and this build proves why that rule is probably there, even though I think its a lame rule.
A side note is that you do hit that annoying multiclassing XP penalty due to taking 1 level of bard.
I'm not familiar with the other forms of abilities you listed but this is pretty compact. The only thing you might be able to squeeze out of it is a splash of another progression, but in the end after this the amount of dual progression PrCs you can abuse dries up a little.

Legend:
JPM = Jade Phoenix Mage
CM = Cerebremancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/cerebremancer.htm)
Ur-P = Ur-Priest
SC = Sublime Chord
RKV = Ruby Knight Vindicator

[Draz74]

I'd just like to mention that Utterances only go up to 6th level, and Pacts only go up to 8th level. So people who are claiming that the OP is possible are employing hyperbole ... or they're on drugs.

[Zaq]

Technically, the highest level of utterances is 6ths, and the highest level of vestiges is 8ths. But you knew that.

[Hirax]

I say circle magic needs to get fit in somehow, so that everything has a good CL.

[motoko's ghost]

Actually I was originally going to put septuple but the spell checker kept correcting it to sextuple so I put that.:smallredface:

[DoctorGlock]

I say circle magic needs to get fit in somehow, so that everything has a good CL.

Ghostwalk has a feat for it

[molten_dragon]

The recent thread about triple 9s got my curiosity up. Can the playground find a way to make septuple 9s? To clarify, that would be 9th level of the following:


Arcane spells
Divine spells
Maneuvers
Psionics
Mysteries
Utterances
Pacts


:smalleek:

Is there anything else we could add to this list to make it even longer?


Obviously regular 20 wouldnt work but can we get gestalt 20 to work?
If gestalt doesnt work, how many levels would be needed to get this insanity?

I'm pretty sure you can't do it in a gestalt 20, even if you allow dual-progression prestige classes and prestige classes on both sides of the build. Doing so would require you to have quad 9's on one half of the build. I posted a thread a while ago asking if quad 9's could be pulled off, and the general consensus was no. Tristalt could probably do it though if you allow dual-progression prestige classes and prestige classes on all sides of the build.

If you want to make it even crazier, add in Incarnum, though I don't know exactly how you would define the equivalent of 9th level spells in incarnum, since I'm not overly familiar with it.

[Draz74]

though I don't know exactly how you would define the equivalent of 9th level spells in incarnum, since I'm not overly familiar with it.

Probably Binding the Soul Chakra. (Although a lot of Soul Chakra binds actually suck.)

Come to think of it, are there nine chakras in MoI? No, wait, there are ten (eleven if you count Totem).

[Snowbluff]

I'd just like to mention that Utterances only go up to 6th level, and Pacts only go up to 8th level. So people who are claiming that the OP is possible are employing hyperbole ... or they're on drugs.

Also, neither seem really good, and the OP forgot about both sets of Invocations (Demonic and Draconic), which are often alot more useful.

[Tyndmyr]

The recent thread about triple 9s got my curiosity up. Can the playground find a way to make septuple 9s? To clarify, that would be 9th level of the following:


Arcane spells
Divine spells
Maneuvers
Psionics
Mysteries
Utterances
Pacts


:smalleek:

Is there anything else we could add to this list to make it even longer?


Obviously regular 20 wouldnt work but can we get gestalt 20 to work?
If gestalt doesnt work, how many levels would be needed to get this insanity?

Well, there's some limited tools. For instance, the only base class to grant higher utterances is Truenamer. That's it, it's all of the things, there are no helpful PrCs or theurging available. You can get more Utterances known, but without ways to boost the level of Utterance, that doesn't matter much.

So, if full Truenaming is necessary, it's going to basically eat an entire set of levels.

Maneuver's scale pretty well. If you have sufficient levels to play with, a single level dip does you pretty good, and it's fairly easy to fit in with Gestalt.

If you just want quantity of option instead of the progressions themselves, there are a number of varyingly cheesy ways to grab stuff for your list. StP Erudite and things. Mysteries and Pacts are somewhat less abuse-able, but still take to theurgy.

Even so, it's just not doable in gestalt. Truenaming sinks it by basically soaking an entire side.

[Eurus]

Pun-pun technically does it, but that's not really helpful.

[Morph Bark]

Utterances and Pacts don't go to 9. :smallwink:

Also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216341).

[RufusCorvus]

My mind keeps circling around thought bottles and black ethergaunts, but I really don't want to try delving into this.

[Greenish]

I'm pretty sure you can't do it in a gestalt 20, even if you allow dual-progression prestige classes and prestige classes on both sides of the build.Someone did something like that a while back. It had casting, manifesting, truenaming etc. at rather high levels, though I forget whether it capped them all.

Trying to dig it up.


[Edit]: Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) was what I was thinking about, but it only has triple nines and a decent smattering of most everything else.

[motoko's ghost]

Utterances and Pacts don't go to 9. :smallwink:


They do now, they do now:smallbiggrin:

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

"Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes"

s

[Lateral]

1 Wizard // Psionic
2 Wizard // Psionic
3 Wizard // Psionic
4 Bard // Psionic
5 Crusader // CM Targeting Wizard & Psionic
6 Crusader // CM
7 SC // Psionic
8 SC // CM Now Targeting Sublime Chord & Psionic
9 Ur-P // CM
10 Ur-P // CM You gain Rebuke
11 RKV // CM RKV Targetting Ur-Priest
12 RKV // CM
13 RKV // CM
14 RKV // CM
15 RKV // CM
16 RKV // Psionic
17 RKV // Psionic
18 RKV // Psionic
19 RKV // Psionic
20 RKV // Crusader

So in the end you are:
9 Arcane (5 Level Wiz. 10th Level Sublime Chord)
9 Divine (10 Ur-Priest)
9 Psionic (9 Psionic + 10 Cerebremancer)
7 Maneuver (3 Crusader + 10 Ruby Knight Vindicator)
Actually, you do get 9th level maneuvers. 3 Crusader plus 10 RKV plus 4 from other levels is enough for 9ths.

[Suddo]

Wow this was a lot tougher than I thought it was going to be.
So simply as thought exercise I rebuilt my previous build. Once again with dual PrCs.
http://i.imgur.com/nVtiV.png
Skills need by level 11 (the key point):
Knowledge(Arcana) 13, Listen 13, Perform(Any) 10, Concentration 9, Knowledge(Religion) 8, Spellcraft 8, Profession(Astrology) 6, Bluff 6, Knowledge(Psionics) 6, Knowledge(Planes) 8, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge(History) 2.
Totaling: 97
Your total: 98 (The table shows without Human bonus)


I assume your abilities are:
Str 8
Con 14
Dex 10
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 14
Things not on the chart:
You have to be human and have at least 1 flaw, I think. The 2 feats not seen here are Martial Study and Marital Stance to gain Devoted Spirit Maneuver and Stance to allow entrance to RKV.
So I try and take as few out of raw assumptions as possible with. Alignment is almost completely correct which is the reason I don't go with Crusader, versus Swordsage. I also go swordsage for skill points its tight at the end, even with human. You will only have 1 or 2 points to spare when you enter both Sublime Chord and RKV.
The mainly questionable things are Precocious Apprentiance allowing you early entrance for PrCs by allowing you to cast a 2nd level spell. This is questionable but not all that abusive of the system.
You start as Neutral Lawful worshiper of WeeJas. When you enter Ur-Priest you begin to try and emulate him by stealing other god's powers. You can't be Evil while taking levels in Jade Phoenix Mage, though you end up taking Spell Focus(Evil) which is kind of funny.
The extra cleric levels are fluff and are lost when you hit higher levels, due to Ur-Priest.
The Factotum is for skill points and to help make sure that Int is useful. Though you are MAD as all get out.

You end up with:
15+ BAB
17 Initiate Level
17th Level Erudite Powers
10th Level Sublime Chord
10th Level Ur-Priest Spells
5th Level Wizard Spells
1st Level Bard Spells
And a couple handfuls of class abilities.

Sources

Complete Arcane: Precocious Apprentice (181)
Complete Psionic: Erudite (153)
Tome of Battle: Crusader (8), Jade Phoenix Mage (113), Ruby Knight Vindicator (122)
From the Web:
Cerebremancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/cerebremancer.htm)
Physic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)

[Godskook]

[Edit]: Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) was what I was thinking about, but it only has triple nines and a decent smattering of most everything else.

Just from looking at it, with Ardent + practiced manifester, there's 2 levels we can convert to theurgic levels, and we can drop 4 levels of psionic progression, giving us a net 6 levels to other things and still keep 9th level manifesting.

Not sure how easy it would be to shove another feat in there to do that, though.

[Analytica]

At this point, maybe N-stalt is actually the most elegant option. You gestalt every base class. I wonder how overpowered an N-stalt character would be? Still Tier 1, I guess... and only one set of actions per round.

[motoko's ghost]

At this point, maybe N-stalt is actually the most elegant option. You gestalt every base class. I wonder how overpowered an N-stalt character would be? Still Tier 1, I guess... and only one set of actions per round.

I thought about making one of those once...then I stopped,too much bookkeeping made my head hurt

[Hirax]

Shapechange into a chronotyryn. Have one part of the gestalt take 9 levels of swiftblade. As a sample: Wizard5/incantatrix4/mindbender1/swiftblade9/loremaster1 (using Frog God's fane to get the feat). 9th level spellcasting and persistomancy, with 3 standard, 2 swift, and 2 move actions per turn. Gestalt with factotum for more actions, or if your DM is crazy, gestalt with a RKV on the other side.

[FMArthur]

Shapechange into a chronotyryn. Have one part of the gestalt take 9 levels of swiftblade. As a sample: Wizard5/incantatrix4/mindbender1/swiftblade9/loremaster1 (using Frog God's fane to get the feat). 9th level spellcasting and persistomancy, with 3 standard, 2 swift, and 2 move actions per turn. Gestalt with factotum for more actions, or if your DM is crazy, gestalt with a RKV on the other side.

This is small time. There are enough levels in a non-gestalt build to fit Planar Shepherd 5 and Beholder Mage 10 into 20 levels. 10 free action spells per round, plus your standard action spells makes 11. In a 10:1 planar time bubble. I don't think you can even get enough spell slots to cast your 110 spells per round. With Arcane Hierophant you'll have near-perfect Druid progression alongside the BM casting.

[herrhauptmann]

"Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes"

s

There's an additional caveat I believe (which still has to be waived for this experiment)
To only allow the dual progression classes if the character qualifies for them on just one side of the build:
So wiz/urpriest/MT//factotum is okay.
Wiz/MT//archivist/factotum is not.