D&D 3.5 Fighter/Wizard/Rogue Question

[rabbitenemy1]

Hello, I'm very new to forums (just today), so if I have made some forum-related mistake, sorry. Anyway, I am starting a lvl 20 D&D 3.5 game with my friends and I wanted to attempt the Level 20 Fighter/Wizard/Rogue without my DM finding and exploiting countless weaknesses to teach me a lesson. I figure I'd ask people who have far more experience than I. Also, I am well aware that it would be smarter to just not choose this multi-class, but it's really the only one I am interested in.

I have seen some topics about making fighter/wizard/rogue classes online, but I have yet to see one where people were NOT focusing on the wizard levels. I understand why focus is important in a game like D&D, but I need advice on making a balanced Fighter 7, Wizard 7, Rogue 6 build that doesn't rely on one class or items. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Flickerdart]

Couple questions.

1) Why?
2) Must they be levels in Fighter, Wizard and Rogue, or can they be any classes (or PrCs) that progress Sneak Attack, full BAB and spellcasting?
3) Whyyyyyyyyyy?

[rmg22893]

Couple questions.

1) Why?
2) Must they be levels in Fighter, Wizard and Rogue, or can they be any classes (or PrCs) that progress Sneak Attack, full BAB and spellcasting?
3) Whyyyyyyyyyy?

Also:

4) WHYYYYYY??!?!

[Scarlet-Devil]

Why not Fighter 6/Wizard 7/Rogue 7 instead? :smallwink: Or, swap a few of those levels out for Eldritch Knight or something similar; it would be the same idea, just possibly a little better in execution.

[rmg22893]

(1) I am trying to find a way for it to work.
(2) What classes have that type of progression? Also, yes, they must be those specific classes.
(3) I am a human, therefore I am of the stubborn.

I'd recommend a Beguiler and Duskblade combo. Spellcasting, sneak attack, and good BAB.

[Gavinfoxx]

So have you seen this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0

Why not just do Sneak Attack Fighter/Wizard/Spellsword/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster, or something??

In order to do your concept, you need to look MUCH further into 3.5e for it to be viable, the basic 'fighter6/wizard7/rogue7' will NOT WORK. This is not AD&D 2nd edition! In order to get the basic concept working, you need to bring the system to heel with a lot of finesse and care and ability...

[rmg22893]

So have you seen this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0

Why not just do Sneak Attack Fighter/Wizard/Spellsword/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster, or something??

In order to do your concept, you need to look MUCH further into 3.5e for it to be viable, the basic 'fighter6/wizard7/rogue7' will NOT WORK. This is not AD&D 2nd edition! In order to get the basic concept working, you need to bring the system to heel with a lot of finesse and care and ability...

Agreed. With that degree of multiclassing, you're just going to be terrible at everything, OP, instead of good at a few things. You'll have an awful BAB, spellcasting of 4th level at best, and none of the useful features that rogues get at later levels.

[hydraa]

You could use the class variants on UA 58 to beef up one side even though you are still at the same class levels
Fighter (rogue) lose bonus feat for sneak attack
Rogue (fighter) lose sneak attack and gain fighter bonus feat
Wizard(fighter) lose wizard bonus feats in place of fighter bonus feat (at wizard rate).
And to really confuse the DM
Wizard(druid) lose familar and get animal companion

[dgnslyr]

Without describing him in terms of classes, what do you imagine your character to be? A skillful swordsman with a talent for magic? A combat-ready scoundrel who complements his fighting style with spells? How do you plan on using your classes?

Sadly, 3.5 is not really the system where you can mash together three very different classes into one character and get a good result, at least not without using some kind of hybrid PrC. There are prestige classes like Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer, which combine magic and roguery, and there are prestige classes like Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight that combine magic with full BAB. What do you want this character to be able to do?

[rabbitenemy1]

Well, one thing is that I am restricted to the player's handbook/DMG only.

[hydraa]

What race is this character?
And stats

[rmg22893]

Well, one thing is that I am restricted to the player's handbook/DMG only.

Then I would advise very strongly against a wizard/rogue/fighter combo. You're going to be carried by the rest of the party and won't be able to do much at all. Your caster level will be awful, so most enemies you fight against will be able to shrug off your spells; your BAB will be bad, so you probably won't be able to hit much, and you won't be able to utilize any of the rogue skills to the greatest effect, because your rogue skill levels will be low.

TLDR: DON'T DO IT!

Be a druid. Level 20 druid > all

[rabbitenemy1]

Why not Fighter 6/Wizard 7/Rogue 7 instead? :smallwink: Or, swap a few of those levels out for Eldritch Knight or something similar; it would be the same idea, just possibly a little better in execution.

Well, I could do that, if it would be better.

[rabbitenemy1]

The race is half-elf btw... for multiclass options. As for the idea of bad BAB and rogue skills I have found that my BAB would be the same as a lvl 20 rogues and my relevant skills would be as high as they are allowed at lvl 20, so basically only my spellcasting and sneak attacks would suffer. (I'm not big on either of those anywho)

[dgnslyr]

I think he mentioned his character would be human. Can't go wrong with that, really.

Are you limited to Core because your DM only allows core, or because those are the only books you have? Also, the d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) is a very nice resource, because it has all of core (PHB, DMG, MM1) and then some. It always bugs me when people say core is balanced, and other stuff is imbalanced...

Anyways, thug/sneak attack fighter is on the SRD, as is Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight. You could almost definitely manage a hybrid of any two of those classes, but all three combined will be trickier. Just how much fighty-, sneaky-, and magicy- ness do you want with your character?

[rmg22893]

Well, I could do that, if it would be better.

Here's what you should do: Fighter 1/Wizard 9/Eldritch Knight 9/Rogue 1

Access to 9th level spells, decent BAB, some sneak attack.

[hydraa]

PRCs in DMG that might be helpful for the build and keep the flavor
Arcane Trickster (rogue, wiz)
Dragon disciple
Duelist (rogue, fight)
Eldritch knigt(fighter, wiz)

Partially ninjaed

[Siosilvar]

The problem with this is that a Fighter 6/Wizard 7/Rogue 7 is, at best, no better than a 10th level character or so. Multiple levels of base classes don't combine that well, and specialization is so much more vastly effective than generalization with 3.5's level system.

Take a 9th level character. When you level up to 1-th, you have two options: gain the 10th level abilities of your class, or gain the 1st level abilities of some other class. If that other class isn't a prestige class, its 1st level abilities are something that you're expected to get at 1st level and are much weaker than those that you're expected to get at 10th.

If you're dead-set on being a fighter/wizard/rogue, I suggest taking levels of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster (you'll find them in the DMG), something like the following:
Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 6/Eldritch Knight 5.

You'll cast as a 15th level wizard, have +5d6 Sneak Attack, and a +13 base attack. That's obviously better than 7th level wizard, +4d6 SA, and +12 base attack, but it's still not great. However, it's about as good as you can get while staying in core.

Note that you can still get out-fought by a cleric or druid, with +15 BAB and 20th level casting at the same level.

EDIT:
The race is half-elf btw... for multiclass options.

I assume you have experience with previous editions, then. Multiclassing isn't restricted by race in 3.5 like it was in AD&D.

Still, if you're choosing half-elf (basically the worst race aside from half-orc, if you look at the numbers) and trying to get three classes to work together with just core, I can't imagine that you'll have too many problems. Sounds like your group focuses a whole lot more on playing the game instead of building strong characters (not that either is bad; strong characters can help you have fun in the game, so long as everyone else's is, too).

[rabbitenemy1]

I think he mentioned his character would be human. Can't go wrong with that, really.

Are you limited to Core because your DM only allows core, or because those are the only books you have? Also, the d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) is a very nice resource, because it has all of core (PHB, DMG, MM1) and then some. It always bugs me when people say core is balanced, and other stuff is imbalanced...

Anyways, thug/sneak attack fighter is on the SRD, as is Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight. You could almost definitely manage a hybrid of any two of those classes, but all three combined will be trickier. Just how much fighty-, sneaky-, and magicy- ness do you want with your character?

Honestly I wanted to make it a balanced blend of all three, but the more I worked on it, I realized it would be better to build it as a fighter that uses arcane spells to augment defense (stoneskin, displacement, etc...) and has rogue skills to handle misc. situations. Although I should mention, this is a test build... if I wanted to mix and match different books/levels, I would ignore this concept completely.

[elvengunner69]

What do you guys think about a Druid7/Rogue7/Fighter6 since he is limited to PHB?

Focus some on Quarterstaff and being lvl 20 you should have the $$$ to buy/enchant a QS weapon of some degree. I think some of the Druid powers would complement a rogue and fighter might give you some decent hit points.

Obviously AC will still be an issue unless you have some enchanted barkskin thingie.

[dgnslyr]

Hrm, in that case, I guess Thug Fighter into Eldritch Knight? It's a shame they're so stingy with skill points in core. Just pump up your intelligence and hope for the best, I guess.

Maybe you should play a Ranger? Maybe an Urban Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order? With ranger, you'd get six skill points a level, surpassed only by rogues and factotums, as well as full BAB. Mystic Ranger variant gives you much stronger magic, and Sword of the Arcane Order lets you cast wizard spells with your spell slots. Urban ranger might get you a less naturey feel. Mystic Ranger's spell progression falls off hard later on, but that shouldn't be a huge problem, because you're only supplementing your fighting with magic. While ranger may be core, all the best ACFs and variants aren't, which is a shame...

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, that would work!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10830.0

The Ranger can get trapfinding, lots of skill points, full bab, wizard spells... that should do what he wants, with sufficient alternate class features...

[Flickerdart]

Thug, Feat Rogue and SA Fighter are sadly UA, not Core, so he can't use them.

[rabbitenemy1]

Well, I must say thank you all for your ideas/information... if I decide to make something that uses 3.5 supplements, I'll know where to start. :)

[Rubik]

Well, I must say thank you all for your ideas/information... if I decide to make something that uses 3.5 supplements, I'll know where to start. :)Perhaps rogue/wizard/arcane trickster, ignoring fighter entirely? If you need to, buff up a bit pre-battle (there are some nice hour/lvl spells in there) and use Polymorph to get a huge Str bonus to supplement your BAB (using Tenser's Transformation as a last resort once you have all the buffs you want up).

Approximately 24.5 times better than adding fighter to the build.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I think I managed to get him to try for Rogue1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Wizard5/Arcane Trickster X/Eldritch Knight X... maybe with some archmage in there...

[elvengunner69]

What do you guys think about a Druid7/Rogue7/Fighter6 since he is limited to PHB?

Focus some on Quarterstaff and being lvl 20 you should have the $$$ to buy/enchant a QS weapon of some degree. I think some of the Druid powers would complement a rogue and fighter might give you some decent hit points.

Obviously AC will still be an issue unless you have some enchanted barkskin thingie.

Ummmm....?

[Randomguy]

Does this sound like Nale to anyone else?

The reason that all the builds there are like this focus on wizard levels is simple: Casting is better. Always. Also, dual progression PrC's that advance both casting and other abilities are better than multiclassing, so if it's possible to gain higher level spells while advancing your other abilities, there's really no reason not to.

[gorfnab]

How about Bard? Rogue like skill points, some armor and weapons like a fighter, and some spellcasting could fairly easily replace a Rogue/Fighter/Wizard type build if you're only limited to core.

Build Ideas:
Bard 20 - decent in core only, recommend using a whip in combat (Improved Trip/ Improved Disarm)
Rogue 3/ Bard 7/ Arcane Trickster 10 - very sneaky with lots of skills
Bard 8/ Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, or Paladin 2/ Eldritch Knight 10 - mini tank
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Eldritch Knight 10 - support caster with decent ranged options

[rabbitenemy1]

Hey, it's been a while since I checked up on this, but I wanted to thank you all for the ideas. I ended up making the fighter7/wizard7/rogue6 build work perfectly! Just needed some out-of-the-box consideration, and a really picky play-style. It truly is the "adventurer" class I was looking for. Thanks again for all the tips and ideas, while I did stick with the generic classes & equal levels, I was led to really buckle-down on the rules & reconsider how to use the build correctly.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Limited to PHB/DMG I think your best bet would be:

Rogue 3/Wizard 3/Fighter 1/(Eldritch Knight 5/Arcane Trickster 8) Changing the mix of Trickster/Knight to taste with BAB on one side and skill points and Sneak attack dice on the other. Also, you chose two poor jumping off points Fighter 7 and Rouge 6; Fighter 7 is a dead level that doesn't grant a bonus feat and Rogue 6 just because Rogue 7 is a great level being granting +1d6 sneak attack and +1 BAB.

Base Classes Only
BAB 13
HP 7d10, 7d4, 6d6 (avg 77 max 134)
4th level spells
4d6 Sneak attack
100 skill points (not counting int or human assuming rogue at level one for X4)
3 fighter feats
Base Saves
Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +7
Uncanny Dodge
3 fighter feats

With PrC's
BAB +13
HP 3d6+3d4+1d10+5d6+8d6 (avg 69 max 118)
8th level spells
6d6 sneak attack
98 skill points (not counting int or human assuming rogue at level one for X4)
Base Saves
Fort +10 Ref +11 Will +11
Ranged Ledgerdamain; steal things and pick locks from a safe(r) distance.
Impromptu Sneak Attack; Sneak attack, because I say so.
2 Fighter bonus feats