PCs at War [3.5]

[Adam...?]

So my PCs have gotten themselves into a bit of a scuffle. And by "scuffle," I mean a full out war between two powerful cities. Obviously, this being DnD, it would be insanely stupid and boring to have high level characters just march in with the front lines and fight an entire army. As such, I had kinda intended to present interesting options that they might take to help the war effort that worked on a smaller scale.

Unfortunately, they're not exactly taking the bait. Their thought process seems to be "we're level 13. We can fly, we have awesome defenses, and we can throw out a metric ****-ton of fireballs. Why don't we just go over there and solve this problem ourselves?" More specifically, they seem to think that they can fly in to the enemy city, demolish their well-defended port, and waltz out.

So as a DM, what's the best way to handle this? Should this be a realistic and/or achievable goal? If yes, any good ideas for turning this into a fun set of encounters? If no, how best to dissuade them? Should I just have the boss man tell them "dude, if you go in there alone, they will shut you down with an antimagic field and shoot hundreds of crossbow bolts at you?" Am I missing an awesome third option here?

[OracleofSilence]

Ummm, much though i hate to say it, they are probably right. I would argue in fact, that if your cities are ANYTHING like the cities commonly presented in 3.5 sourcebooks, they could do way way more then that. They could waltz right into the THRONE room, kill the king, slaughter his bodyguards, and demolish the entire castle. and THEN waltz right out.

I say, just go with it. Cause unless you want it to look like rdiculous fiat, there is no reasonable reason tehy should not be able to just walk over city guards and hear the lamentation of their...

Well i think you get the picture.

[SamBurke]

So my PCs have gotten themselves into a bit of a scuffle. And by "scuffle," I mean a full out war between two powerful cities. Obviously, this being DnD, it would be insanely stupid and boring to have high level characters just march in with the front lines and fight an entire army. As such, I had kinda intended to present interesting options that they might take to help the war effort that worked on a smaller scale.

Unfortunately, they're not exactly taking the bait. Their thought process seems to be "we're level 13. We can fly, we have awesome defenses, and we can throw out a metric ****-ton of fireballs. Why don't we just go over there and solve this problem ourselves?" More specifically, they seem to think that they can fly in to the enemy city, demolish their well-defended port, and waltz out.

So as a DM, what's the best way to handle this? Should this be a realistic and/or achievable goal? If yes, any good ideas for turning this into a fun set of encounters? If no, how best to dissuade them? Should I just have the boss man tell them "dude, if you go in there alone, they will shut you down with an antimagic field and shoot hundreds of crossbow bolts at you?" Am I missing an awesome third option here?

Logically, ask this question:

Is this city well prepared for invasions of any sort? (IE, is it large, important, and relatively rich, with an ounce of common sense?)

Or is it *not* prepared?

If it is the second, they should be able to run amok without any but the local wizards bothering them (which should be an issue anyway, but whatever).

If the first, Governments of the time had plenty of dough; if they were smart, they'd have Tippy-style magical defenses.
Epic Force Walls. Epic Dimension Locks. Epic Anticipate Teleports. Etc, etc, etc. Once those basic things are put in place, the PCs (and all invaders) will fight on the city's terms.

[Dr.Epic]

Have them go on covert, secret missions to assassinate key enemy opponents, escort allies across hostile routes, liberate captured soldiers, or retrieve stolen goods.

[Greenish]

Obviously, this being DnD, it would be insanely stupid and boring to have high level characters just march in with the front lines and fight an entire army.Boring? Maybe, though that would be up to the DM, wouldn't it?

Insanely stupid? Nah, it seems to be about in line with the sort of power high(ish) level characters wield in D&D. A bunch of superheroes/demigods should be able to tackle a city, unless said city has similarly powered defenders.

At level 13, trying to pretend that the characters could best use their powers with minor help to a war effort is sort of silly, unless you're playing in Forgotten Realms or the like, where there's an epic caster in every village.

[Morcleon]

Considering you know your PC's, set up an anti-air defense of sorts (antimagic ray, wingbind, flying monsters with better speed and maneuverability than PC's, etc), then have the port be heavily defended with magical energy resistances, and enemy spellcasters who can fly too. From my experiences, it's best to tell your PC's the relative difficulty of whatever they're going to do, then let them do it.

[Keegan__D]

I say let them go. Let the well-defended city make a TPK. It's not nice, but it's realistic, and it teaches them a lesson. Do make sure to throw up the AMF once they're all within its range.

If you're against such a just slaughter, you can give them covert-ops missions. Or if possible, have the good guys forbid them to do it because of honor. That the battle should be one with their own force.

[GoatBoy]

It also depends on the moral stance of your PC's. Is one side clearly the aggressor in this war, or is it a matter of misunderstanding? It would be easy to slaughter one side or capture and kill the leaders, but are they willing to do so?

[00dlez]

When placed in this situation, I tend to use the "tit-for-tat" rule, the PCs are the focus of the world/game, but that doesn't make them the biggest fish in the pond...
1. Apparently one of the cities has convinced the PCs to join their cause, why can't the other city have done the same? Perhaps an even more powerful group?

2. Check out Hero's of Battle, a crafty 13th level party can probably avoid most of the stuff in there, but you can use it for inspiration at least, and it has some good advice about running battle scenes and objective accomplishment.

3. There's a difference being arbitrary/railroading and smacking the PCs for trying something that's extremely dangerous.* The party very well might be able to survive the encounter, but 250 archers all firing at single targets still get 250 die rolls, and 12 will hit (on 20's, and presume no crits) for ~54 damage... How many HP does the caster have? Okay, next round...
* - Just be sure the NPCs give them ample warning about the extreme danger before hand

[Tvtyrant]

The question of how a city exists if it has no defenses should come up at some point anyways. My answer is that cities hire monster hunters to fill dungeons beneath the city with animals, vermin, dire animals, dinosaurs, and other relatively unintelligent creatures that are fed through slots. When outsiders attack they are released through tunnel entrances hidden in the walls, and they drive off the opposing forces in a wave of bestial fury. The city then waits for most of them to eat each other before clearing off the last few.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember, it isn't all that hard to annihilate an army camp, if everyone is mostly level 1-3 warrior...

A Level 9 Druid (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54924) can do so quite easily... they just have to act like a stealth bomber, fly in at night, destroy most of the camp, do the same the next night...

[Adam...?]

A little more background information to stir the pot a bit.

The city in question is large, well defended, well-funded, and has had ample time to prepare for war. While they don't have extensive arcane support, they do have at least one powerful wizard (lvl 17-20ish) on the payroll, and some prime clerical support to boot. In addition, the PCs are aware of a secretive group of higher level NPCs also aiding this city.

Also, funny you should mention it, OracleofSilence, but the PCs just got back from sneaking in and killing the city's king. They barely managed to prepare well enough to get through various magical defenses, suffered a casualty at the hands of some badass bodyguards (several of whom are still alive and rather pissed off), but they now have possession of the dead kings body. They haven't yet figured out that the king was really just a puppet, but they'll get there, I'm sure.

As a direct result of this assassination, the city might be slightly more paranoid about those sorts of covert operations now.

[Doug Lampert]

The question of how a city exists if it has no defenses should come up at some point anyways. My answer is that cities hire monster hunters to fill dungeons beneath the city with animals, vermin, dire animals, dinosaurs, and other relatively unintelligent creatures that are fed through slots. When outsiders attack they are released through tunnel entrances hidden in the walls, and they drive off the opposing forces in a wave of bestial fury. The city then waits for most of them to eat each other before clearing off the last few.

A 13th level party waves at the monsters as if flies by overhead. If any of the monsters can also fly they notice the nice juicy civilians inside the walls and the nasty spikey flying guys throwing fireballs, and then they chow down on dead civilians.

Conventional defenses just won't work. Level 5 warriors and adepts are no longer worth any XP for these guys because baring a situational advantage (like traps or high level support) they are not a significant challenge regardless of numbers.

Crack open your DMG, it gives the expected distribution of high level characters in D&D3.x, then reflec that a city at war may have hired some extras and may have fixed defenses, like say resetting traps that target fliers and command activated traps of nasty spells.

A large city or metropolis should eat a level 13 party for lunch if the level 14+ characters within the walls are cooperating in defending their homes (likely), you're rolling for 11 PC classes and 4 NPC classes 4 times each with a +12 to level for a metropolis (only 25,000 or more adults) IIRC.

But even in a conflict of large cities a level 13 party is STILL a major force, a sane government wouldn't just use them to pick arround the edges or for a handful of special ops, you want your best guys to help in the main battle and anyone with Teleport without Error and some firepower or real allies is one of your main guys.

The players are correct that low level warriors aren't a problem for them, and if the city's defenses center arround low level warriors they SHOULD simply fly in and settle things.

You need to decide how wars are fought and what the actual defenses are like FIRST, prior to deciding what the PCs should be doing. Once you have the defenses the role may be obvious. Let's say the war is fought with each side having a set of defended bases used to rest and recover spells and the like (with magical traps and teleport defenses) and teleport/flying raids to try to hit such bases. This is a fine way to get a series of encounters, the PCs attack enemy bases, they rest in friendly bases. Or the defenses may be something else which will suggest a different way of acting. But a level 13 party won't be doing ANYTHING "on a small scale" unless there are substantial numbers of higher level characters around.

[Tvtyrant]

A 13th level party waves at the monsters as if flies by overhead. If any of the monsters can also fly they notice the nice juicy civilians inside the walls and the nasty spikey flying guys throwing fireballs, and then they chow down on dead civilians.


How hard would it be to simply dispel the flying off of them? Or Hallow: Dispel Magic all along the walls so nothing can go through magically?

[motoko's ghost]

Like it says in HoB, in war the PCs wont be mowing down the rank and file it will be facing down the PCs belonging to the other side, after all a large city would generate some high level PCs, who would likely take offense to anyone destroying their home town:smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

A large city or metropolis should eat a level 13 party for lunch if the level 14+ characters within the walls are cooperating in defending their homes (likely), you're rolling for 11 PC classes and 4 NPC classes 4 times each with a +12 to level for a metropolis (only 25,000 or more adults) IIRC.
For every LG character, there's going to be a CE one (barring strongly aligned cities and races) itching for an excuse to start blowing things up. If the PCs are smart, they could (especially with the perceived power vacuum after the king's death) convince more powerful ne'er-do-wells to join in the plundering.

[motoko's ghost]

For every LG character, there's going to be a CE one (barring strongly aligned cities and races) itching for an excuse to start blowing things up. If the PCs are smart, they could (especially with the perceived power vacuum after the king's death) convince more powerful ne'er-do-wells to join in the plundering.

Okay divide and conquer would work, it should slow the PCs down though and they wouldn't just fly in lob a few fireballs then fly out, so there shouldn't be a problem with that.

[Legendairy]

edit: stupid lag and its double posting!

[Legendairy]

A few things to consider. You said it was well funded and has access to at least one high level caster.

What temples are in the place, clerics will likely defend the place if the city itself is in the wrong (and possibly just to reap benefits if they are evil clerics).

The town can hire mercenaries to help them as well. A level 13 party could not waltz into a place thats ready for war, it is D&D although not really set up for huge war scenarios there is plenty to use. Illusionary walls make the walls appear higher/shorter then they are trenches covered with illision terrain.

Then the spells likely the key places would be protected from teleportation and plain shift. Mind you not all areas but key official buildings, ports, well to do nobles, etc.

You want them on the front lines put some powerful NPC's on the front lines of the other army, circle teleport mass groups close enough that the watch towers can see them, make the pc's feel that their town is under threat way before they realized.

Fireballs are great in war for demo. But strategic teleporting in fire elementals while earth elementals bash in the walls is better.

If you want more options (im sure the other playgrounders are way more knowledgable than I) I would still be more than happy to help if you want to just message me.

Edit: Flying sounds neat, if you arent invised or protected from arrows expect a metric ****ton to be flying in your direction. Another thing low level casters could cast fearie fire, it would light up any creature they target in range or arrows with light spells, for when they try to do this at night. A well defended city will be on the lookout for this stuff.

Hope this helps some.

[NichG]

In a D&D universe there are a few things to keep in mind before high level characters try to take on armies.

An army of Lv1 Fighters with bows will Nat-20 on 1/20 soldiers, and crit on 1/400. To some extent you might as well just divide the number of archers in the army by 20 and 400 and use those as 'per round' ambient damage due to arrow fire. This is far more lethal than rules for combined fire (which let you Reflex out of the way or whatever) but do maintain the severity of threat represented by thousands of people that want to kill you. Similarly, 200 Lv1 mages with Magic Missile will kill nearly any single target that isn't immune.

That said, 1000 Lv1 Fighters with swords are singularly unthreatening.

The lesson is, armies in a D&D universe are highly dependent on what they expect to have to fight. If they're mostly fighting things with numbers, melee is a decent option though range is still really potent due to having one or two rounds of fire before contact with the enemy. If they're fighting Ogres or Giants or Adventurers, they will specialize on range so they can focus fire, and will emphasize mages more. Actually, skip the melee - they're almost useless even against other numbers (or reduce the melee by large amounts compared to realistic armies). When the melee deals with high-end targets they will abuse Aid Another to make Grapple checks rather than making attacks with weapons, trying to make the high-level targets waste their actions.

Throw in a Bard for every 200 soldiers for the +1 to damage and things get a bit more dicey. Clerics for Prayer or Bless are also good for taking advantage of force multipliers inherent in large numbers of troops.

Siege weaponry is useless as statted out - don't bother. Troops with alchemical items on the other hand can be very threatening: 200 soldiers with flasks of Alchemist's Fire throwing for the 1pt of splash damage can do 200 fire damage with no real accuracy needed.

I'd suggest if you want to show the PCs they need to think differently, have them fight a company of maybe 100 Lv1 characters using these tactics, focusing fire and honestly trying their best to eliminate the threat. Then point out that there are 19900 more soldiers in that army they want to face.

So all this said, high level PCs that are prepared for it can take an army. Small amounts of DR, Wind Wall, and the like negate most of the arrow fire. Miss chance is basically percentage damage reduction here. Brooch of Shielding for the annoying mages and Resist Fire for the Alchemist Flasks (or Energy Immunity) and most of those tricks have been shut down. A single character casting Control Weather to create tornadoes, etc can kill hundreds or thousands of soldiers given realistic consequences of weather.

[Slipperychicken]

It is bad policy to let the PCs smash countries at will. It creates feelings of invincibility, which you don't want them to have. Let your arrows blot out the sun.


Math-hammer them with ranged attackers, at least 5% critting (crossbow-users are 10%). Each PC whose AC<20 will be hit even more. Remember that armies have at least thousands of men, and an average of 50 crits per round per thousand men. Have the melee guys throw rocks at them or be equipped with slings. If they come alone, have a few hundred more mooks add to the storm of missiles every round. Someone on watch duty has the ability to detect the Invisible/Ethereal/Etc, and remember that even if there isn't, in combat, it only takes a DC20 Listen to pinpoint an invisible character. Torch Bug Paste (Complete Scoundrel 120) is excellent for marking targets. Remember that low-level armies still have mages with low-level spells, so they can expect level 1-3 spells like Glitterdust to come their way and negate their hiding.


After they start taking >20 critical-hits from the army every round, give them a chance to escape; maybe they notice someone radio in for heavy-magic. If they strike in concert with the friendly army, or keep fighting alone, send very strong strike teams of similar or greater number/level to the PCs at them. If the enemies know about the PCs, they can send high-level assassins to kill the PCs in their sleep.


EDIT: forgot about confirmation rolls... stupid houserules

[Silva Stormrage]

Low level wizards should be enough to slaughter them.

Assuming 100 level 3 wizards

Thats 100 magic missles that are automatically auto hit.
200d4+200 force damage to a single target. They can do that 4 times.

4 dead pc's

[Gavinfoxx]

Low level wizards should be enough to slaughter them.

Assuming 100 level 3 wizards

Thats 100 magic missles that are automatically auto hit.
200d4+200 force damage to a single target. They can do that 4 times.

4 dead pc's

There are sooo many ways to be completely immune to magic missile it's not funny. Spell Resistance, Shield spell, I believe several items render you permanently immune to it (rather than just somewhat immune to it before dissolving)...

[Rhaegar14]

No matter how powerful the PCs get, there's always someone out there who is more badass than them. It's likely that a city that has to be at war with them will hire such more-badass individuals so they don't get destroyed.

Even if they manage to destroy an entire city four-handedly, there will be repercussions for their players; there will be at least one god who does not take kindly to this.

[Gavinfoxx]

Even if they manage to destroy an entire city four-handedly, there will be repercussions for their players; there will be at least one god who does not take kindly to this.

Why not? Cities were destroyed all the time before the modern age. All they have to do is be careful like the Romans were when they destroyed a city; make sure to take the gods (statues and stuff) and make sure they get worshiped so they don't lose their worshipers and therefore get angry and smite you...

[tiercel]

There are sooo many ways to be completely immune to magic missile it's not funny. Spell Resistance, Shield spell, I believe several items render you permanently immune to it (rather than just somewhat immune to it before dissolving)...

So you just open up with lesser orbs of cheese instead. Sure, you're going to miss sometimes, but it's not uncommon for even high level characters to have decidedly mediocre touch AC unless in a fairly high-op and/or high-resource game.

And if you're really in a game where everyone can routinely run around with resistance to all flavors of energy, you've entered the realm where the correct opening move is always to remove magic protection (dispel/greater dispel/disjunction/walls of dispel/hallow/antimagic etc).

-----

A city of any size will need defenses better than "oh no, let's hire some adventurers" or it will have *already been* conquered/razed, if not by monsters, then by high-leveled characters.

Obvious issues include being able to respond to (if not prevent) invisible fliers, not to mention teleportation into important areas (securing an entire city against extraplanar travel of all kinds is probably an Epic undertaking).

Realistically, I would expect a high level adventurer attack to meet relatively little resistance at first, but mooks should be able to sound an alarm / highlight attackers, resulting quickly in a more traditional PCs -vs- high-level NPC party facedown (possibly with mass low-level archer and/or spell support).

[00dlez]

Obvious issues include being able to respond to (if not prevent) invisible fliers, not to mention teleportation into important areas (securing an entire city against extraplanar travel of all kinds is probably an Epic undertaking).


Bam, there's your first battlefield mission.
The city is impervious to teleportation of any kind, and in order to kill the king (or whatever the goal might be) the party must first take down the enchantment...
Maybe they need to recover an artifact to do so, maybe they need to interrupt the magic ritual that keeps the enchantment active, etc.

[motoko's ghost]

Bam, there's your first battlefield mission.
The city is impervious to teleportation of any kind, and in order to kill the king (or whatever the goal might be) the party must first take down the enchantment...
Maybe they need to recover an artifact to do so, maybe they need to interrupt the magic ritual that keeps the enchantment active, etc.

Destroy the shield generators before the imperial fleet can destroy the rebels!:smalltongue:

[Silva Stormrage]

There are sooo many ways to be completely immune to magic missile it's not funny. Spell Resistance, Shield spell, I believe several items render you permanently immune to it (rather than just somewhat immune to it before dissolving)...

I am well aware they can be immune to it. But WILL they be. Right now the impression I got is the PC's are just going to try and walk up and start hammering away. Also most of those things are caster only. Most fighters or melee at that level don't have spell resistance and can't use shield. (And who ever gets those items anyway at that level?)

[dgnslyr]

On the subject of archers, aren't there special rules for resolving a massive volley of arrows? I think I remember hearing something about masses of arrows being resolved as an Area-of-Effect, reflex save half, or something like that. While it might not have the same sting as a volley of forty crit-arrows, I think it would make a little more sense.

[Randomguy]

Make it a very hard encounter that the PC's have a chance to run from but could maybe bypass if they play things smart, but will have to run from if they just barge in guns blazing.

The city should have a few groups that are capable of nearly matching the powers of the PC's. The mage's guild (Led by the powerful wizard with a bunch of level 10 apprentices, with other level 5 members that go run to buff other people), a church (With possibly a high priest, other priests and low level disciples that buff other groups), the thieves guild (Hey, those guys just came in here carrying armloads of magic items! This looks like a chance to make a profit!) and an elite squadron of guards (That the lower level wizards and clerics beef up with fly, bulls strength, bears endurance, grow person, and the like).

Each group will, of course, be coordinated by dancing lights.

And that's not to mention the hundreds of low level guards that will be either aiming seige weapons at the PC's, or attacking them on mass.

[Silva Stormrage]

On the subject of archers, aren't there special rules for resolving a massive volley of arrows? I think I remember hearing something about masses of arrows being resolved as an Area-of-Effect, reflex save half, or something like that. While it might not have the same sting as a volley of forty crit-arrows, I think it would make a little more sense.

Those rules are in Heroes of Battle.

[Toliudar]

So as a DM, what's the best way to handle this? Should this be a realistic and/or achievable goal? If yes, any good ideas for turning this into a fun set of encounters? If no, how best to dissuade them? Should I just have the boss man tell them "dude, if you go in there alone, they will shut you down with an antimagic field and shoot hundreds of crossbow bolts at you?" Am I missing an awesome third option here?

You're getting lots of good conversation about whether a level 13 group will or will not trounce a city. Here's a few other suggestions to break this down into bite-sized pieces so that you don't have to stat out an entire freaking army.

If you decide you want to dissuade them from doing a solo strike, you could pre-empt this by having reports come in that a strike team from the other city has just reduced an outlying village loyal to the PCs' city to smoking rubble. Sure, it might piss them off, but it also sends the message that they're not the only ones with access to Flame Strike, Disintegrate and an adamantine greathammer.

If you let them roll with the hit-em-alone scenario, give them a few ratcheting-up encounters en route to the main city. A set of a dozen Scout 3's from the opposing army that open fire when the PC's fly overhead (assuming they don't just teleport into the target city), then a squad of warriors with a bit of bard and clerical support for accuracy. They'll roll over the opposition, but perhaps with some tactical fun and a modest drain on resources.

The secret would seem to lie in breaking the war down into scenes and smaller battles. The breaking of the main gates. Setting fire to the main warships in port. Some epic-scale combat is thus possible, but without having more than a couple of hundred defenders involved at any time. And perhaps the PC's get to know that, about 5 rounds after an alarm goes up, high-level casters start teleporting in. They can then either adjust their stand-and-fight strategy, or retreat and reconsider.

[Elboxo]

This will depend on your depiction of the city that is to be attacked, if is entirely honourable ( Paladin's dream ) this may not happen, but if otherwise....

The PCs seem to be boasting about how they can win the battle single-handed, perhaps a little bird of the city, -or even an aspiring young knight in their own army who wishes to make his fame in the initial charge of the city- hears of this, and (Little bird) sends assassins in the night, perhaps an unseen seer or a wizard ( Something with decent casting or melee, that can escape if need be ) to kill the primary target in this party, probably the wizard or cleric, perhaps he could even be kidnapped and held hostage in the city and dominated against the party. If the aspiring knight is the one who is angered, have him perhaps try his hand at murder, probably of the 'Strongest' in the party; the BDF.

This method is designed to incapacitate, or even kill one party member, and create disquiet amongst the PCs as their targets change, either with the Wizard or Cleric ( Or both ) suddenly turned against them, or by creating mutiny in the ranks of their own army.

[Suddo]

Is there a BBEG that doesn't like them? Have him team up with the opposing side.
The same can be used with opposing evil groups. I mean if your PCs over extend then killing them would be easy.

But in the end by level 13 you've gotten way above the normal power curve and the entire war will revolve around them and others like them.

[nyarlathotep]

If the PCs start directly fighting that should realistically start a very fast arms race. If he have demigods descending into your city and dealing out death morals and taboos will quickly fall by the wayside. Necromancers sealed for practicing forbidden magic will be released, demons will be summoned by people too unskilled to control them (I think there was one CR 15 beasty that counted as several hit dice fewer than normal because it liked being summoned and could break out of control), monsters like wendigo and cockatrice will be purposely breed if their creation myths are widely known, etc.

Any "normal" medieval city with a D&D rule set is either run by high level casters or will quickly develop into a city of monsters when casters show up.

[Phaederkiel]

I really like Elboxo´s Vain Knight szenario. I am happily going to steal it:)
I also like nyarlathotep´s notion of people summoning things they cannot control. On both sides. Nothing says problem as bad as the nice librarian wizard trying to contribute...by summoning some uncontrollable nasties.

one thing is clear: you cannot dissuade them anymore. Killing the enemies King made them Prime Targets already.

Some things I would do:

Have a not-so-very-well-conceived Scry and Fry attempt on them. Some Concubine of the reportedly late king that wasn´t informed of the puppet plan.
This will probably fail, but they will spend a lot of resources to protect themselves from further attempts. Bonus points if said Concubine learns of her lovers health by the Party. could be a nice ally.

They have that corpse, yes? Make it wake at night and assasinate people. I do not know the monsters very well, there will be something up to the job, i trust.

Best of all: Let there be a well-meaning wesir or so, which really likes the pcs to stay in the line of fire. "If they do the troubling, they draw the heat."
This wesir gives the Pcs missions, one more suicidal than the next.
Play upon their "honor"

Along these lines: one of the missions could be to wipe out an enemy encampment at some point of strategic value. Just about one hundred men...

one Commander (marshall 4)
with one subcommander (bard 3)
has 5 teams of 21 mean ( each consisting of 1 adept 3, 5 adept 1, 15 warrior 1)

Glitterdust, Seeking ray, magic Missile, mass bow barrage. If you play it nice, it is doable but hard. Just to give them some respect for numbers.

[Elboxo]

I really like Elboxo´s Vain Knight szenario. I am happily going to steal it:)


Glad I could help :)

[Rejakor]

DnD warfare is far more like sci-fi warfare than historical warfare. The missions for a small group of elite commandos should be things like taking down the shield generators (smashing the focus for the anti-teleport spell), assassinating/suborning high ranking enemy officers (wizards, clerics, even honest to goodness generals if they're high level enough to command Fanatical loyalty from troops), misdirecting/changing orders (unchanged), sabotaging/taking down spaceships or enemy fighters (high level wizards or clerics, by bribing or killing, fightercraft are the lower level wizards that work in groups, or magical creatures designed for mass artillery with SLAs or swarming - single big creatures like dragons are again space-battleships), or providing ship-of-the-line duty in large battles (high level PCs are again like space battleships in this regard). As well as the usual things like bribing people or setting up subterfuges or poisoning wells/food supply etc that **** is still popular.

But if you have 2 cities fighting a historical war, and then you add level 13 PCs to one side, one city is going to become a flaming cinder. Or they'll just take it over as their personal fief.

Armies in DnD rely on massed arrow fire, or magic items that shoot magic missiles and warm bodies to hold them, or summoned creatures/demons, or whatever. Soldiers in DnD move in small groups to avoid evocations/BFC, usually with bard and/or marshal support, as well as low level wizards for everything technology handles in the real world - communications, camouflage, close area-kill (flamers/burning hands), and will typically be used more as an annoyance/force big hitters to split their attention/use up actions/spells dealing with them than as the main force.

You can still set up serious tactical situations, you just have to think of level 12+ magic as sci-fi, and level 12- magic as WWII. The axis forces set up summoned creature/magical ballistae AA encampments on the field, and the Allies have sent in bard/marshal led squads of alchemical bombardiers, net-and-trident monster hunters, and archers in to try to run/sneak past the Move Earth And Stone built trenchworks (trenchworks are good for stopping a single evocation killing hundreds of men, especially the line-of-sight ones, so they'd be used extensively) with Fog Cloud catapult stone cover to get in there and wipe out whatever is blowing the wizards of the 13th Aeromantic Battalion out of the sky and giving the enemy's Eldritch Theurge Gechswader from hitting your Circle Magic sites with rocket-propelled antimagic fields.

Of course, if one single AA site was taking out every single flyer you sent up, you'd send in PCs. As it would take some serious mojo beyond low level bard/marshal/infantry teams to take it out.


What's great is that due to the limitations of magic against magic (AMF, Forbiddance, Anticipate Teleportation, Sanctum, LoS, LoE, Range), a lot of weapons used would involve mundane components (Huge catapult (trebuchet) fired Antimagic Stones, Hide skill combined with a Delayed Blast Fireball wrapped in quintessence, Archers using volleys combined with 5 dragonfire inspired bards).


But yeah, seriously, town should have some kind of mojo or it would no longer exist the first time a mad 10th level wizard looked at it funny. And reactive mojo (the wizard in the tower comes and sees what's going on) is hilariously sub-intelligence-10 dumb.

[Yahzi]

at least one powerful wizard (lvl 17-20ish)
So you're talking about chain-bound solars.

The mayor of the city has a magic statue. When speaks to the statue and declares a person to be an enemy of the state, then whenever that person enters the city limits, previously bound solars/demons/golems/elementals teleport in and eat them.

That's what I would do with my city. Heck, it's what the players would do with their city, if they had one.