What is the appropriate party level for this boss?

[killem2]

Currently I am looking into a boss fight for my groups party.

We are:
Level 2, Rogue, Fighter, Wizard (evoker) (humming bird familiar), Cleric, and Ranger.
Also, an elven hound, and a normal guard dog. And a Bear Cub. (its very weak)

The Boss:

Brutus, Level 6, Half-Orc Barbarian Barbarian
Hit Points: 70

Lawful Evil

Str - 20
Dex - 16
Con - 14
Int - 8
Wis - 11
Cha - 10

Skills Listen + 10.

F: +7
R: +4
W: +2

AC: 17

Feats
Exotic Weapon Prof
Toughness
Toughness


Armor: Breastplate of Enlarge Person Enlarge Person 1/day.

Weapon: Battering Axe, (Axe from Bastion Press book) Medium Damage is 3d6. Critical is x3 P/S.



This Barbarian guards 6 prisoners ransom victims. He's not exactly a barbarian anymore, he won't be able to rage since he's gotten in cahoots with this bandit gang and is now part of the organized hierarchy (hence the L/E alignment).

He's pretty stout, and i plan on him using the magic breast plate at <10% health, and start going to town.

[Dr.Epic]

I think that might be right. I'd say maybe increase it to level 7, but at level 2 you can still die from just one good hit. Also, barbarians can dish out a lot of damage (relative for low level against other low levels). I'd say maybe add a mook or two that's CR 1/2, and you should be fine.

[killem2]

Cool thanks!

[Lord Bingo]

Beware that Brutus can one shot kill most of your party. IMO if you play the boss right your party is going to loose a member per round - at least as long as we are talking about the weaker ones.

[sonofzeal]

I'd lower his damage somewhat. This guy can drop a frontline melee warrior in a single hit if he rolls even moderately above average; anyone else he hits is down. His attack bonus is +12 or higher, so he's not going to miss much. And he's got two attacks around if anyone's adjacent to him.

Unless the Wizard/Cleric can somehow disable this guy in the first round, they're toast. This guy could quite easily drop someone every round. I can't see the PCs winning unless they've got significant a tactical advantage, or they can somehow nerf his offence either by forcing him to range, or by Ray of Enfeeblement or somesuch.


I highly recommend switching that 20 to Con, dropping the Str to 16 or so, and going with a more traditional martial weapon. A +10(2d6+4) attack is something the party Fighter can stand up to for a couple rounds, while a +12(3d6+7) attack really isn't.

[killem2]

If it helps, he is a sleep when they come in the room. Its a large room too, 40x60ft

I think I will crank down his hp, and I will also give him a different weapon.

[sonofzeal]

Actually, cranking down the hp is not what I'd recommend. The problem is his offensive capability, not his deffences. The other problem bosses can have is going down like chumps in the first round under the weight of PC action advantage. He presumably has to soak aggro from the whole party for several rounds.

Let's put it this way - the ideal boss fight puts the fear of Nerull into the party, without actually killing anyone. The best way to do that is something that's hard to take down but can wear them down in return. In a melee brute, that means moderate damage and huge hp.

That said, him starting asleep changes it to the Rogue's game - get adjacent and then CDG him. That could also be fun and suspenseful, and help build the tension whether or not they succeed. If he fails though, you want the fight to still be a good one.

[killem2]

Of course, I wasn't implying you suggested his hp go down. I will change out his weapons. That's the first step. I will also switch his str and con too. he does have quite a nasty attack bonus.

The cleric, isn't anything real special but could heal for a while, but you are right the damage needs to be brought down. Maybe I'll make him have no weapon, and first fight since he thought, oh I'm watching some panzy ransom victims and now one in this bandit hide out thought they would be infiltrated.

I might put his skills into something else besides listen.

Oh, and what is CDG?

[IdleMuse]

Well, if he's asleep, assuming your rogue is skilled up in Move Silently and has an appropriate weapon, the coup de grace will knock off a fair few of those hit points straight away, and probably kill him right off. If they don't manage that, then the rogue will probably be the first to die, but, echoing others' comments here, if you tone down the damage output a bit (going for a 'normal' weapon sounds like a good plan), they should be able to take him if they play tactically.

Just doing the maths, assuming the rogue is fairly wussy (aka str 10), and can get their hands on a spear (best simple weapon for coup de grace, easy to obtain in pretty much any situation), they're looking at average of 16 auto damage. That right there is a DC26 fort save he needs to make or die on the spot. That's what, a 10% of success he has? Obviously this depends on good damage rolls and good sneak rolls, but the players would be stupid to forgoe the possibility.

EDIT: CDG is Coup de Grace : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm , as I mention above, it can be easily lethal, so if you want to avoid it, more in CON and keeping skills in Listen will help.

[killem2]

thanks, I think I'll just drop the damage down to a Falchion, and give him improved critical feat, and 2x toughness. I used an average hp figure for a 6hd, but thinking about it, maybe I'll go ahead and give him closer to max hp, and change this str/con. I don't mind the CDG but I don't want it to be easy either.

[Runestar]

Just a thought, you could give him a whip, as well as the improved trip feat (think there is a UA variant which gives a barb said feat for free). He would deal subdual damage, which is less threatening to the PCs. :smalltongue:

[sonofzeal]

thanks, I think I'll just drop the damage down to a Falchion, and give him improved critical feat, and 2x toughness. I used an average hp figure for a 6hd, but thinking about it, maybe I'll go ahead and give him closer to max hp, and change this str/con. I don't mind the CDG but I don't want it to be easy either.
Er, Falchion with Improved Critical is back to the same problem - a crit is going to be instantly lethal against anyone. I mean you could still do this, but be prepared to fudge the dice to prevent crits confirming. That'll add a bit of extra threat, without actually killing people.

I might go TWF / Oversized TWF, and dual weild battleaxes or something. That'll lower his damage overall but still let him deal a fair amount of hurt. It'll also let him split up his attacks some more, so you don't drop people in single rounds. Remember, the best way to end a bossfight is everyone bleeding and battered and out of major resources but alive.

[Legendairy]

As son said make him dw two bigger weapons, it will create the illusion of a beast with two massive (medium) weapons without the actual damage output. An option for weapons are clubs medium sized fluff one with spokes and such and the other one a nice medium club, good for keeping prisoners in line ya know.

The defence on the guy is good, yeah maybe some more HP. If the PC's play smart it is winnable and fun. They could blind him and such. I personally wouldn't have him be asleep byt maybe a suprise round.

[killem2]

Er, Falchion with Improved Critical is back to the same problem - a crit is going to be instantly lethal against anyone. I mean you could still do this, but be prepared to fudge the dice to prevent crits confirming. That'll add a bit of extra threat, without actually killing people.

I might go TWF / Oversized TWF, and dual weild battleaxes or something. That'll lower his damage overall but still let him deal a fair amount of hurt. It'll also let him split up his attacks some more, so you don't drop people in single rounds. Remember, the best way to end a bossfight is everyone bleeding and battered and out of major resources but alive.


Maybe I should make him a straight fighter, shield/mace or something, then he could be flanked, and the rogue could sneak attack him all day long. But still give him the massive hp. Maybe even max. (99 ish)

I mean we took down a brown bear at max HP, at level 1. And she only killed one person. And I was using full attacks the whole time.

[sonofzeal]

Actually, it might not be a bad idea to make him a Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). Same hp, same armor, but some useful Maneuvers you could use to mix things up.

- "Iron Heart Surge" could help salvage any anticlimactic SoL in the surprise round.

- If you go with OTWF, "Wolf Fang Strike" lets him move and still attack with both. "Sudden Leap" also has the same effective result.

- Warblade has a good number of Counters and Boosts. Focus on these to help keep the fight varied and interesting.


Maneuver lists can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). At lvl 6 he has two maneuvers each of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd lvl.

[killem2]

Just a thought, you could give him a whip, as well as the improved trip feat (think there is a UA variant which gives a barb said feat for free). He would deal subdual damage, which is less threatening to the PCs. :smalltongue:

I missed this post the first time, perhaps a dual wielding whipster. :D



Ok I've been messing around with all the ideas given here, and I am really liking the idea of the whip. So much in fact, I changed him from an ex-barbarian, to a full barbarian, moved him to n/e, then added a level of fighter. So 6 barb/1 fighter. I maxed out his hit points, I lowered his strength down quite a lot, bumped up the con, and gave him great fortitude, and dire hard. He will use a whip. At first I thought it was kind of a joke, but then, I realized, he generates an attack of opportunity every time.

However, the big issue is, if he defeats them all, I'm going to have him kill all the prisoners, and lock up all the new guys. What he won't know is, the wizard can send the humming bird out, transposition with him with the rogue and try to escape.

Ok So here he is, enough fort power to make a CDG fair, but not automatic, and kill one hell of a fight, since he has an outrageous armor class (for the party atm that is)

Brutus, The Whipkeeper, level 6 N/E Barbarian Level 1 Fighter

Hit Points 110

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 18
Int 5
Wis 10
Cha 7

Items:
Full Plate of Enlarge Person 1/day
Masterwork Whip (1d3 + 3)
Tower Shield

AC: 23

Attack Bonus: +10/+4

F: 11
R: 4
W: 2


Feats
1.Exotic Weapon Prof
2.Great Fortitude
3.Endurance
4.Die Hard

Rage 2/day



I think this will make the melee work their asses off, and it will no doubt drain the wizard.

[Fruchtkracher]

A will save of 2? This battle might be over sooner than you expect...

There is one feat in Complete Warrior (I think), that let's him add his CON-modifier instead of WIS to will saves, that could fix this Problem.

[sonofzeal]

Alternatively, if he goes Warblade, there's Moment of Perfect Mind. It's single use, but hey - if your PCs are throwing out multiple SoL at lvl 2, they deserve a chance for some of them to work. It gives him a defence that can be overcome with effort, where a high traditional Will Save via Steadfast Determination and Scorpion's Resolve wouldn't be.

[Runestar]

A will save of 2? This battle might be over sooner than you expect...

There is one feat in Complete Warrior (I think), that let's him add his CON-modifier instead of WIS to will saves, that could fix this Problem.

The feat is steadfast determination from PHB2.

2nd, I feel AC23 is a tad high for a lv2 party to wade through. Also, I forget that the whip does not deal damage to creatures with an armour bonus, so you should replace it with a spiked chain, and have him take -4 attack penalt early on to deal subdual damage.

What you can do is make this a 2-part battle, using the berserker strength variant from PHB2 (which auto-activates rage when the barb drops below barbx5 hp).

So for the 1st half of the battle, the barb boss may be more interested in trying to subdue the party using non-lethal means, but when they reduce him to 30 or fewer hp, his temper gets the better of him and he starts fighting for real.

So his stats would be...

Brutus: Male Half-Orc Barbarian 6

Stats: Str:18, Dex:13, Con14, Int:10, Wis10, Cha6
HP: 51 (6d12+12)
AC: 10+1dex+whatever armour suits your party
Attack: +11/+6 (2d4+6)
Saves: Fort+7 / Ref+3 / Will+4
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Improved Trip(b), Track(b),
Skills: Max out intimidate, survival, any 2 other skills
Eq: Masterwork armour, Masterwork spiked chain, 1-2 potions (if you use enlarge person, replace combat reflexes with another feat).
Note: He uses the wolf totem barb variant from UA, which swaps out uncanny dodge for improved trip, and the berserker strength variant in PHB2).

For more info, see Berserker Strength (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=3) and Wolf Totem Barb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures )

[killem2]

I like that two part idea a lot. The melee characters in this group have pretty high str, for example, the main fighter has a +4 to attack alone from str, the ranger I believe also has an 18 str. the cleric, has a +3 from str, and the two dogs aren't too shabby.

Not sure why the will save matter. My wizard is evoker, I'm the dm who uses that wizard, and I purposely chose the path of a machine gun wizard lol, he has no enchantment, no necro, no illusions spells. I will look into that feat from CA though.

This is going to be fun. hehe.

[Runestar]

Well, if no one in your party uses will-saved based spells (eg: colour spray), then bully for you. :smallamused:

[killem2]

Well, if no one in your party uses will-saved based spells (eg: colour spray), then bully for you. :smallamused:

Yeah I set it up that way to be a bit more interesting. As the DM, i've noticed that this group want's more story telling in the dungeon, and prefers just all out combat for fights.

In addition, this isn't the only fight in the dungeon, so if they happen to come upon this boss last of all, I want them to stand a chance.

[killem2]

Ok, runestar, I've been seriously considering the use of the spike chain, but with a bit more flair. I decided to wield him with two small spike chains (1d6+2/1d6+1), rather than the one big one. Because of this I removed the tower shield, and dropped the ac down to 19. I gave Brutus the biggest chunk of maximum health he could possible have, 125. I upped his con with his ability bonus so by char level 8, he's at 20. Technically he's actually got 135 hp, because of die hard. He's quite a big of a big dude, he's got a high listen skill but not so high that the party can't attempt an ambush.


Stats for Brutus, The Whipkeeper, level 6 N/E Barbarian Level 2 Fighter
Hit Points 125
Str 15
Dex 15
Con 20
Int 5
Wis 10
Cha 7
Movement: 40
Items: Full Plate of Enlarge Person 1/day
Small Masterwork Spiked Chain(1d6+2)
Small Masterwork Spiked Chain(1d6+1)
AC: 19
Touch AC: 12
Flat Footed: 23
Attack Bonus:
Lethal: 1st Attack [+7/+6] 2nd Attack [+2/+1]
NonLethal: 1st Attack +3/+2] 2nd Attack [-2/-3]
Feats: Exotic Weapon Prof, Great Fortitude, Endurance, Die Hard, Two Weapon Fighting
Fortitude Save: 15
Reflex: 3
Will Save: 2
Rage 2/day
Skills: Listen + 10

I think it'll be a long drawn out fight, but could come down to the wire. We'll have the ranger and fighter and their two dogs up front, the rogue in the back, the cleric, will probably be swinging or slinging, but also having to remember to heal at critical times. The Evoker will only be able to sling so many spells, I believe I have him down to take 4x arcane bolts, 2x transpositions (because those are so fun haha), but it won't leave him with much else, except his cross bow.

Basically the part in this story is to resemble a fork in the road, do we attack the big bastard, save the prisoners, or do we leave them, go get help, or leave them, and report back that we found the bandit hide out, good day sir!